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Author Topic: Hyuuga Reset Revamp  (Read 3211 times)

Omega Purple

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 05:25:05 am »

For the most part I agree with some stuff that has already been mentioned, but I'll add my two cents as well.

I don't think the Byakugan should be constantly active.  In the manga, nobody has it active 24/7 so it makes sense that in SL it would have a limited amount of turns. I do think though that the amount of turns should last longer and increase as the resets stack, as previously suggested by Ratatosk, because the more experienced you get with the Byakugan it makes sense that you would be able to sustain it for longer. It would be nice if Kaiten got a power boost as well. Leave the chakra costs as is.

If anything, in the past Neji has been more inclined to make it more difficult instead of beefing up KG because otherwise everyone would be breezing through resets. There's always the option to leave Byakugan as is and just nerf Sharingan further XD

Regardless, Neji already has his hands full with the KG swap and other secret stuff, and he's already been nice enough to do a revamp before so this kind of request is more on the backburner if anything.
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Snap

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2013, 03:10:59 pm »

*Its; possessive. It was bugging me.

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As the name suggests I'm here to talk about the imbalance of the Byakugan versus it's 'equal' reset, the Sharingan. I believe it is known in the SL community that the Byakugan as an in-game reset (we are not talking about RP here) is severely weaker than it's counterpart.

It's not "equal." No KG of the same tree play the same. They have similar mechanics, sure, but they're never "equal."

Hyuuga need to raise their attack through academy training. Sharingan doesn't.
Hyuuga is a burst-based reset. Sharingan is more of a steadily-paced one with more utility.

Hachimon is mostly a buff/survival reset; each gate either raises your stats or heals you.
Kaguya is mostly a buff/attack reset; each move offers an attack that raises defensive or offensive capabilities.

Hyouton is more of an offensive reset.
Senju is more of a defensive reset.

Rinnegan is more of a Jack of all trades reset.
Sage Mode is more of a heavy-hitters/nuke'm reset.

They play differently and SHOULD play differently as that's the point of having options. There is no need to have options if they offer the same exact abilities.

Also, you should remember that, like every reset, attacks scale based on resets and dragon kills. Much like a 2-reset Uchiha has trouble with using Tsukiyomi to one-shot everything (unlike its 3rd and 4th-reset counterpart), a Hyuuga will have trouble one-shot'ting everything until more resets/kills are introduced.

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This oversight has gone on for a long while for reasons we're not here to speculate about, but it's time we finally did something to even out the two and perhaps boost the number of varying reset types we have here on SL.

1. We're aware of the reasons. They're not supposed to play the same.
2. We have 8 total resets right now with the ability to generate, at least, 16 different possibilities of reset combinations.

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The problems with the Byakugan start with the fact that it's buff is not infinite. It's buff is comparable to the Sharingan when it is on (I am not sure about this, but it seems that way from simple observation) but the problem is that it runs out! The sharingan gets a SIMILAR buff INDEFINITELY, which vastly puts it ahead of the Byakugan at this early stage of analysis.

How is it a problem if its buff is not infinite? You can't call it a problem if that's how it was meant to work. Needless to say, we've yet to see a Hyuuga with the ability (or need) to keep their Byakugan active at all times (unlike their sharingan counterpart).

From the Wiki:
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So, in the game a Byakugan User decreases the enemy attack and defense while Byakugan is active, so not as much as a Sharingan would.
Also, the activation costs more chakra and is limited as it drains forth chakra.

-http://wiki.shinobilegends.com/index.php/Kekkei_Genkai:_Hyuuga

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Now the next thing we have here, is the matter of it's Jutsu. They are cheap, at 1 chakra point each BUT they are not as strong as advertised by the reset system. These jutsu are supposed to be stronger than the chakra types you can pick from normal leveling and stat distribution as it's stated in the reset description. But nearing the 50+ DK range, Kaiten stops doing similar damage as Hyouton does, even if the rounds are longer. The longer rounds do not completely make up for the lack of strength, because as this has happened on a GM Hyuuga you still get hit often while Kaiten is active because the Byakugan turns often run out.

Y'know, Kaiten does something Tsubame Fubuki doesn't (assuming you're using the 3-chakra attack in comparison to the Kaiten), and that's hit more than 2-5 (I forgot which number it is) enemies at once.

Either way, if you take into account that Kaiten(2) lasts 9 (plus 1 initial) rounds and hits 2-5 enemies in the 50dk+ range and compare that to the Tsubame Fubuki(3) that lasts 3-4 (plus 1 initial) rounds, you're looking at a comparable amount of damage done as opposed to damage per turn. Needless to say, you're looking at a third of the chakra normally needed with Hyouton.

I can see where the wiki could be misleading in some ways:

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Specialty "Hyuuga Techniques" is available. This one is stronger than a normal jutsu set.

-http://wiki.shinobilegends.com/index.php/Kekkei_Genkai:_Hyuuga

The "normal jutsu set" could be misleading and they could mean things that don't require stat-distribution (Gen/Tai).

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And another main issue I would like to present here is that the Hyuuga leveling style when done at it's best is extremely chakra point reliant, and quick leveling cannot be done until 3-4th reset where it still falls short of the Sharingan at 2 resets constant buff.

The reset is always chakra-point reliant. In higher levels, it just manages to give you more bang for your buck.

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The fix: Now that I have gotten the reasoning for this out of the way, let's get down to the proposed fix. This is up for evaluation and others may put their LOGICAL input in. (I'd like to keep from personal opinions like "Byakugan is weaker than Sharingan in manga so deal with it" as this is about game balance, not Manga accuracy as the in-game resets should be)

I propose that we have the Byakugan have a constant buff of equal strength to the sharingans without the need to constantly re-activate it over and over. This will close the gap between the two resets, it's really that simple.

No, it's not that simple. Now you have to nerf the abilities because of their low chakra need and their strong burst + round count.

If you want to propose this, you realize you'll have to make the same change for Rinnegan also? Rinnegan has a constant buff that works similar to sharingan and byakugan also. Going to have to give sage mode a constant buff instead of their high round count.

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We take away the chakra point reliance that the Byakugan suffers from. This will also give people a viable second option for resets in the dojutsu category.

So, in other words, you're saying to take out Hyuuga, implement sharingan a second time and rename it "Hyuuga." The only way to balance the two is to make them identical in all mechanics except the jutsu they offer.

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Now we have the issue of "well if the Byakugan is constantly active, you can just spam Kaiten!" This would be true! But I am also proposing that we chakra how those jutsu work a bit to once again work more like the sharingan resets (because let's be honest the sharingan resets WORK, thus why so many people choose it).

No, they choose it because it's the easy route. I can just as easily get 3 kills a regular day with a byakugan as I can a sharingan. Byakugan just takes more effort and careful planning/sacrifice.

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Kaiten would work similarly to Tsukiyomi, but with a higher chakra cost (because the Byakugan has no Mangekyou form to activate and use chakra on)

And Hakke Rokujyuyonsho would take the place of Amaterasu with high burst damage but no lasting turns. Again at an increased chakra cost in comparison.

As for Jyuken, I am not certain what to do with this. And am open to suggestions as I am for this entire post.

"Make Tsukiyomi tsukiyomi, change amaterasu to amaterasu, and make x another x."

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The goal here is to get this imbalance in the system worked out between the two resets. I know there are other people who feel the same, but not many who have spoken up about it for some reason or another. So let's see if we can get Neji to work on this!

Because many understand the differences they each offer and how much their play style differs.

What Raifudo said.
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Old Man Xia

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2013, 03:41:38 am »

For the most part I agree with some stuff that has already been mentioned, but I'll add my two cents as well.

I don't think the Byakugan should be constantly active.  In the manga, nobody has it active 24/7 so it makes sense that in SL it would have a limited amount of turns. I do think though that the amount of turns should last longer and increase as the resets stack, as previously suggested by Ratatosk, because the more experienced you get with the Byakugan it makes sense that you would be able to sustain it for longer. It would be nice if Kaiten got a power boost as well. Leave the chakra costs as is.

If anything, in the past Neji has been more inclined to make it more difficult instead of beefing up KG because otherwise everyone would be breezing through resets. There's always the option to leave Byakugan as is and just nerf Sharingan further XD

Regardless, Neji already has his hands full with the KG swap and other secret stuff, and he's already been nice enough to do a revamp before so this kind of request is more on the backburner if anything.

Yea what purp flurp said. If anything, you can always go Sage and fix the slowness a Hyuga normally takes to level :P
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Eric

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2013, 12:06:12 pm »

You have to get I believe 3 resets in Sage mode before it starts getting breezy, but I think Rinnegan is easy mode from day one of first reset...
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Zenaku

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2013, 04:44:43 pm »

You have to get I believe 3 resets in Sage mode before it starts getting breezy, but I think Rinnegan is easy mode from day one of first reset...

That wasn't my experience. I've maxed at least six accounts and on each one they didn't get uber easy until third reborn with the mutt. Maybe the changes neji made to the rinnegan came after i did the reborns but again, it's just my experience
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Raifudo Oppa

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2013, 01:57:50 am »

Day one of first reset...? I don't know about that unless there was some buff to it. Day one only gets you a very weak Rinnegan buff that's weaker (or on par, maybe?) than 1-tomoe Sharingan.
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Eric

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2013, 08:59:17 pm »

You make a point, day one would be entirely too soon. But first reset is what I had been getting at... But hey, wouldn't be the first time I've been misinformed.
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KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2013, 11:19:40 pm »

HOLY COW!!!

I suck at leveling hyuugas. I just inherited my sister's account and died first shot out of the gate, even with the red kyuubi. She has 3 resets in it.

how do you guys do it?
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sploofmoof

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2013, 12:14:32 am »

HOLY COW!!!

I suck at leveling hyuugas. I just inherited my sister's account and died first shot out of the gate, even with the red kyuubi. She has 3 resets in it.

how do you guys do it?

Lots and lots of Kaiten spam. And then suicide, and then Kaiten spam.
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Zenaku

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2013, 06:37:22 pm »

HOLY COW!!!

I suck at leveling hyuugas. I just inherited my sister's account and died first shot out of the gate, even with the red kyuubi. She has 3 resets in it.

how do you guys do it?

Lots and lots of Kaiten spam. And then suicide, and then Kaiten spam.

Hyuuga's are really easy actually
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sploofmoof

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2013, 06:29:19 am »

HOLY COW!!!

I suck at leveling hyuugas. I just inherited my sister's account and died first shot out of the gate, even with the red kyuubi. She has 3 resets in it.

how do you guys do it?

Lots and lots of Kaiten spam. And then suicide, and then Kaiten spam.

Hyuuga's are really easy actually

Well SL in itself isn't difficult.  Leveling with NO resets isn't hard, it's just slow. 

The discussion we're having in this thread is how the Byakugan is less effective than it probably should be.
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Old Man Xia

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2013, 04:23:07 pm »

HOLY COW!!!

I suck at leveling hyuugas. I just inherited my sister's account and died first shot out of the gate, even with the red kyuubi. She has 3 resets in it.

how do you guys do it?

Lots and lots of Kaiten spam. And then suicide, and then Kaiten spam.

Hyuuga's are really easy actually

Well SL in itself isn't difficult.  Leveling with NO resets isn't hard, it's just slow. 

The discussion we're having in this thread is how the Byakugan is less effective than it probably should be.

Yea it is pretty easy considering I have maxed on Hyuga/Sennin Modo for Ryozo, but it is still all about Kaiten spam day in and day out. Without resets as sploofmoof said is slow, but you gotta know how to keep alive a lot of the time since they are monsters in the forest at 50+ DKs.
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KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2013, 06:45:21 pm »

Yeah. I never leveled one before that had 50+ DK.
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Neji

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2013, 04:41:50 pm »

Hyuuga <-> Uchiha will be somewhat equal in power when I am done.

Different things. I'll try that out on the testserver, so check the tweets for updates or the MOTD there or RSS(for MOTD) there.

the more (constructive) feedback I get, the better I can work ;)

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sploofmoof

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Re: Hyuuga Reset Revamp
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2013, 08:53:08 pm »

Hyuuga <-> Uchiha will be somewhat equal in power when I am done.

Different things. I'll try that out on the testserver, so check the tweets for updates or the MOTD there or RSS(for MOTD) there.

the more (constructive) feedback I get, the better I can work ;)

Aaaaaand, thank you Neji.  I shall be keeping an eye on the test server for sure now.
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