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Author Topic: Bijuu handling.  (Read 8013 times)

Eric

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2015, 01:36:22 AM »

A is more for cases like Night, even he himself admitted he got and later gave it away through OOC really. A would solve that issue.

B is one of my two main facepalming inducing issues about Bijuu, one being getting tails that I won't go into, other being surviving extraction without any real explanation. Its happened over years quite a bit, people swapping what they're a jinch to like changing their clothes.

The RP aspect of it would apply even if the host follows an OOC battle plan? I'm not objecting entirely since it does make some sense (as long as challengers don't get screwed over by the exchange) but since all my fights, for example, are OOC to begin with, trading would kill me while losing a biju match wouldn't if it applied to even OOC match conditions.


Does one actually die immediately though? I mean look at B when the Hachibi got extracted from him, he survived.

It took Gaara a bit to die too from that statue stealing the beast through forced means.

Naruto is an Uzumaki [and main character no jutsu] so he doesn't really need to be taken into account here.

So would it not be plausible to survive the extraction and have a new one transferred in that time frame before dying?

Or am I just crazy? XP

Edit: All edits were made to correct typos and grammar. Damn these small keyboard pieces!

If the two of you are literally exchanging tailed beasts like people used to swap eyes, I can see how that could be an issue. Other than that, if nothing is done, then you will eventually die from the extraction process. I still am not entirely sure how Bee survived as long as he did.

I guess the issue would be whether or not it has to be the same beast going back in or if a different one could be used of greater tails.
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Warren

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2015, 01:42:42 AM »

Depending on your vitality you might last some minutes to half an hour based on evidence in series, but up so far even OPdara died in moments after extraction. Gaara gradually perished during mazo-style extraction, was a corpse by time he fell to the ground after. Naruto lasted due to Uzumakiness a little time, only halfly so fared worse than Kushina. Killer B was left with some chakra from the leg Hatchan cut off for him.

At least imo, judging by Kushina's state and words/actions she woulda died sooner or late. Leaves only really the Senju as a questionmark since no hosts from them were ever seen.

In any case, as seen from Naruto I suppose cramming in a new beast quickly could save you. Can't see people who gave theirs away without getting one back being quite as lucky though, lest they had retarded amounts of life force or some other equally life-saving means prepared beforehand.

As for OOC, sure you can always say fight doesn't affect IC, but one does not simply ignore the sudden disappearance of a bijuu, especially if its been used with a most relevant role in RP up till that point. Dunno about you but should that happen then at least I'd try make up some explanation for it.
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Eric

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2015, 01:53:13 AM »

Depending on your vitality you might last some minutes to half an hour based on evidence in series, but up so far even OPdara died in moments after extraction. Gaara gradually perished during mazo-style extraction, was a corpse by time he fell to the ground after. Naruto lasted due to Uzumakiness a little time, only halfly so fared worse than Kushina. Killer B was left with some chakra from the leg Hatchan cut off for him.

At least imo, judging by Kushina's state and words/actions she woulda died sooner or late. Leaves only really the Senju as a questionmark since no hosts from them were ever seen.

In any case, as seen from Naruto I suppose cramming in a new beast quickly could save you. Can't see people who gave theirs away without getting one back being quite as lucky though, lest they had retarded amounts of life force or some other equally life-saving means prepared beforehand.

As for OOC, sure you can always say fight doesn't affect IC, but one does not simply ignore the sudden disappearance of a bijuu, especially if its been used with a most relevant role in RP up till that point. Dunno about you but should that happen then at least I'd try make up some explanation for it.


If I may ask, since I constantly have to worry about the threat of losing Kokuo while in the middle of a RP (or after working on the beast some) what kind of things could I, for example, come up with? I could maybe release a crapload of physical energy from some seal, but even with that boost of vitality, it would have be a near limitless source like the Mazo in order to keep me alive indefinitely.
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Warren

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2015, 02:03:05 AM »

Its never quite really explained why exactly the host dies, leaving us with little more than theories. My own is that shock of such a huge abrupt loss of chakra and life force is simply too traumatic for the body to handle, kind of similar to how people have been known to die of shock from too much pain.

If going by that, rather than being permanently crippled, one could argue that over a lengthy period its possible to recover from it to at least relative normality. Simple fix for that, can for example in a similar style to Yin seal store excess life force into a seal or some other kind of container over a period of time, then use that to keep you alive.

Myself, when I grew bored of people bitching about having stripped me of Hachibi ages ago due to largely fake claims of inactivity, I changed bodies. Warren never was a human to begin with, and his wife at the time not only was proficient at messing with souls, but also knew a fairly brilliant scientist. A basically identical, just less worn out new body was grown for him, much in a similar manner to how he was "born". After Hatchan's seal was released, his wife simply yanked out the soul and put it in the new one.
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Bocchiere

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2015, 02:04:36 AM »

How exactly does one falsify claims of inactivity? xD
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2015, 02:04:45 AM »

Try to relate this back to the main topic. <<; Kinda off-tracking on another topic.
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Eric

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2015, 02:18:58 AM »

Well, reincarnated (Edo) hosts in the series were left unconscious from the extraction of tailed beasts according to the wiki. The only way to survive was to have a constant stream of life force coursing through the veins after extraction, meaning that the tailed beasts likely were somehow connected to the life force of the jinchs in some way.

Think about it. The Ten-tails husk had its chakra sapped from it: that chakra was then used to create the tailed beasts then. Logically then, that chakra being placed in a lesser vessel would have a certain relationship with the subject's physical energy. Without sufficient life force (I don't want to confuddle physical energy and life force too much, but they do interchange often) one cannot even be a jinchurikii (the 10-tails requires a living host, not a reincarnated host, for example).

Having the tailed beast extracted then likely also drains the life force of the jinch, eventually leading to death unless a constant life force is kept through them, or that lost life force is somehow restored. Just theorizing stuff up here.

The point of the matter that's relevent to the topic though, is if gifting a tailed beast for someone without naturally great life force is more dangerous than simply losing it in a biju battle (OOC), then what would be the point of gifting it in the first place? Heck, IC-wise, no one who values their life would gift a biju to another individual very willy nilly simply because of the risks involved.

It kind of conflicts with the point of doing an OOC match in the first place, where you win or you lose, you lose or win a tailed beast, and you move on with your RP.
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Warren

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2015, 02:28:41 AM »

Well replenishing that lost life force is exactly what I meant with the storing it in some container, for a post-loss release into use. I don't see where you get the need for a constant feed of it though, its not like the extraction knocks you to +100 years of age with an old age wrecked body like Geezerdara's was. I'ma try another comparison.

Cold turkey. If you can't endure it, yer ded, same as jinchs after extraction. Get through it though, as a jinch could with sufficient life force, the body will normalize and resume normal function.

As for why bother with OOC over IC, simple really. If you lose IC, winner does whatever the hell they please with you, so lest they spare you or you get help from a third party you're likely just dead no question. OOC, despite the oddities the beasts sudden disappearence may cause, at least gives you the opportunity to try plan some at least remotely sense-making explanation for it.
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Eric

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2015, 02:40:47 AM »

Well replenishing that lost life force is exactly what I meant with the storing it in some container, for a post-loss release into use. I don't see where you get the need for a constant feed of it though, its not like the extraction knocks you to +100 years of age with an old age wrecked body like Geezerdara's was. I'ma try another comparison.

Cold turkey. If you can't endure it, yer ded, same as jinchs after extraction. Get through it though, as a jinch could with sufficient life force, the body will normalize and resume normal function.

As for why bother with OOC over IC, simple really. If you lose IC, winner does whatever the hell they please with you, so lest they spare you or you get help from a third party you're likely just dead no question. OOC, despite the oddities the beasts sudden disappearence may cause, at least gives you the opportunity to try plan some at least remotely sense-making explanation for it.


But remotely making sense would include, why would the winner let you walk or something of that sort? After extracting the tailed beast, if the victor had Edo Tensei, why wouldn't they keep a portion of you after the fight? The fight itself also did not happen in the RP continuum, so then the fight would have had to happened IC at some point in order for it to make sense for all of the otherwise extraneous RP stuff for why the person survived and such.

I see the need for constant feed from the series. Killer B would have croaked had he not severed off that portion of Gyuki, using its chakra as a medium to stay alive. Naruto too would have croaked had it not been for  Obtio throwing tailed beast chakra into him.

Obito, though paralyzed, was more or less fine if not just weakened when he got the ten tails extracted because the husk remained inside him. The dude revived Madara while he was in this state, recall. The stubborn dude clung on even after getting it removed and that revive technique because of presumably Hashi's cells and Zetzu (or for plot reasons).

Living under your own power indefinitely after getting janked for your tailed beast does not seem like the norm here.
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Garō, Ichirou

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2015, 02:50:47 AM »

Like i've already stated, i'm fine with whatever outcome comes of this topic, but if someone would be so kind to shoot me a pm with the final decision on whatever this all is, So that I may know for future reference <3
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Warren

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2015, 02:54:13 AM »

Well explain me this then o_O should you lose Kokuou to say Mioku in an OOC match, then bug man asks where'd the 5-tail go, do you just go 'wut you talking about, I never had it to begin with'? At least to me, coming up with some sensible reason to an OOC loss sounds far easier than trying to alter the past to fit new reality of things.

Bee doesn't really count cause he did have a way out. Obito however had beasts extracted, rinne tenseid madara, gedo mazo extracted, put through kamuis fighting and bijuu passing overs while stuck to black zetsu, even took control of him for a good while and went up against Swagdara. Though they did talk as if he was gonna die inevitably anyway, I'd pass that off as more just a pure guess, since Naruto didn't just restore proper heart function to him but boosted back to enough health for multiple kamuis and such, plenty fit to rush to save Sasuke and Naruto. Naruto's Yin mark had also fixed Gai from a friggin ashen, burnt up husk into a nigh completely healthy state except for the Night Guy-fubared leg of his, so I refuse to believe he would have just died for an inexplicable depletion and inability to generate more life force after all that.

Well, if Kaguya's ash bones hadn't done him in that is.

Edit: Now that I wrote that, I do wonder why the leg wasn't fixed. Makes no sense.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 02:55:42 AM by Warren »
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Eric

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2015, 03:03:27 AM »

Well explain me this then o_O should you lose Kokuou to say Mioku in an OOC match, then bug man asks where'd the 5-tail go, do you just go 'wut you talking about, I never had it to begin with'? At least to me, coming up with some sensible reason to an OOC loss sounds far easier than trying to alter the past to fit new reality of things...


When I had set my matches to OOC, I had not considered the implications of how that was going to fit into the RP. I made the mistake of RPing with the beast, thus that would be a very valid question.

If I were to retain power from Kokuo like any host who survived extraction, then yes, I would feel obligated to come up with SOMETHING to explain it. Otherwise, I probably would go:

"Never had it, your question is invalid". Maybe not the best way to do it, but up until recently, I hadn't really put too much thought into that possibility. I could say that reality was shifted to the point where I never possessed the beast in the first place, but I recall my conversations and such with it, is not so far-fetched if I also claim that it happened because of a reality bending ninja (Rinnegan-sharingan) doing such.

But putting some thought into it, yes, it would be as if I never had the beast in the first place would be the aftermath. The RP with it would have been made a bit pointless unless I were to catch the beast again, in which that previous RP would become flashback introspect while I wait for the tails to grow back (figuratively and literally speaking).

Complicated, certainly, but that's only if a reason for the beast no longer being there would have to be answered. The proposition for there to be a logical reason for survival (not such being a choice) clashes somewhat with the nature of OOC biju battles.
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Warren

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2015, 03:12:43 AM »

Something for you to consider then =P

As for me, its how I've rolled so far without seeing any real reason for doing otherwise, so I'ma stick with extraction being cold turkey on steroids; lest you've some way to survive long enough to normalize, yer ded.
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Eric

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2015, 03:22:16 AM »

So how are we handling this gifting biju business then? I can't say I'm totally on board with a mandated reason for the extraction to be survivable if the host uses OOC battles. IC battles, it's practically a given, and causes trades to have a little more thought put into them, but I still don't see the need for OOC battlers to also have a mandated reason.

Also, I think Warren's idea combined with either mine or Shadow's would be a more effective way to implement that; Warren's idea alone really does little to prevent challengers from getting rubbed (which is part of the reason this discussion came up in the first place) in the wrong place by spontaneous gifting.
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Warren

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Re: Bijuu handling.
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2015, 04:03:22 AM »

My main thing to bring up with first post wasn't the survival actually, it was having a sensible IC reason for any kind of gifting/swapping/whatever of a beast, so we don't get another case such as Night.
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