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Author Topic: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST  (Read 9612 times)

Ѕhadow

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2015, 11:22:34 PM »

Arriving late to the party because I've been on the fence on approaching this particular subject. Here's why:

Bocchiere gave me a copy of his copy of the schematics for the Hiraishin, however, I said I wouldn't claim its power unless an actual RP was initiated in learning it. So therefore, I cannot "claim" to know Hiraishin but I have the capability in doing so.

However, in light of this widespread knowledge, I wanted to see what y'all thought of that scenario. And where to go from there?

OOC does not correlate to IC.

And yet I'm sure a few people on here acquired it OOC to claim it IC. Just sayin'.

Either way, I'm cool with not actually possessing via that outlet. I'll find a way to obtain it via RP eventually.

True that. Thank you for taking a different way ob obtaining it though. ~
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Genesis

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2015, 07:31:14 AM »

Quote
Reversed Engineered? (Still not sure how this works)
Kayenta

I think that if you are going to list me it should be without disparaging commentary or just keep me off your list.

I know what I have and why I have it, that is more than enough.

TL;DR

Take your commentary off from where my name is listed or remove my name completely.

I doubt Shadow meant it to be derogatory and I'm pretty sure he wrote that with innocent intentions.
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2015, 07:36:00 AM »

Quote
Reversed Engineered? (Still not sure how this works)
Kayenta

I think that if you are going to list me it should be without disparaging commentary or just keep me off your list.

I know what I have and why I have it, that is more than enough.

TL;DR

Take your commentary off from where my name is listed or remove my name completely.

Disparaging? Because I still don't see how it works? Everyone has their opinions Kayenta and I will not remove mine just because you see something wrong with it.

I put a personal note that I didn't get it. Anyone else who claims to have reversed engineered it will be put under the same sub-category. I don't care who they are. You are not getting treated bad just because you reversed engineered it. That's not why I put it apart from the others.
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Eric

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2015, 02:20:03 AM »

Quote
Reversed Engineered? (Still not sure how this works)
Kayenta

I think that if you are going to list me it should be without disparaging commentary or just keep me off your list.

I know what I have and why I have it, that is more than enough.

TL;DR

Take your commentary off from where my name is listed or remove my name completely.

Disparaging? Because I still don't see how it works? Everyone has their opinions Kayenta and I will not remove mine just because you see something wrong with it.

I put a personal note that I didn't get it. Anyone else who claims to have reversed engineered it will be put under the same sub-category. I don't care who they are. You are not getting treated bad just because you reversed engineered it. That's not why I put it apart from the others.


There was like, a whole thread on the topic: http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8376.30.html

 If you still don't understand how reverse engineering hiraishin works, then I suspect you either rejected all of the explanation(s) or would like a condensed version.

In short, with a sample of the technique, it is possible to take it apart and figure out how it was put together. Real life people do/did this sort of thing all the time (*cough* China *cough* Rome *cough* United States of America *cough*) with either the original models or with clues provided by what pieces of information they could obtain.
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2015, 03:34:51 AM »

Quote
Reversed Engineered? (Still not sure how this works)
Kayenta

I think that if you are going to list me it should be without disparaging commentary or just keep me off your list.

I know what I have and why I have it, that is more than enough.

TL;DR

Take your commentary off from where my name is listed or remove my name completely.

Disparaging? Because I still don't see how it works? Everyone has their opinions Kayenta and I will not remove mine just because you see something wrong with it.

I put a personal note that I didn't get it. Anyone else who claims to have reversed engineered it will be put under the same sub-category. I don't care who they are. You are not getting treated bad just because you reversed engineered it. That's not why I put it apart from the others.


There was like, a whole thread on the topic: http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8376.30.html

 If you still don't understand how reverse engineering hiraishin works, then I suspect you either rejected all of the explanation(s) or would like a condensed version.

In short, with a sample of the technique, it is possible to take it apart and figure out how it was put together. Real life people do/did this sort of thing all the time (*cough* China *cough* Rome *cough* United States of America *cough*) with either the original models or with clues provided by what pieces of information they could obtain.

More so I don't get why it's allowed, but everyone else doesn't mind it so I cannot just neglect it because I don't like it.
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Teostra

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2015, 05:14:43 AM »

More so I don't get why it's allowed, but everyone else doesn't mind it so I cannot just neglect it because I don't like it.

It's allowed because it's both do-able and also makes things interesting. Heck, you could almost consider reverse-engineering jutsu canon considering that Oro in a way learned how to do Edo in a similar way. A lot of the jutsu he learned was through experimentation and devilish means.
Plus, that opens up RP channels for people who want to have scientist-like characters like myself >_>
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Suishou Koji

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2015, 05:37:25 AM »

I'm glad I can't teach Hiraishin. I'd be spammed with messages otherwise.

More so I don't get why it's allowed, but everyone else doesn't mind it so I cannot just neglect it because I don't like it.

It's allowed because it's both do-able and also makes things interesting. Heck, you could almost consider reverse-engineering jutsu canon considering that Oro in a way learned how to do Edo in a similar way. A lot of the jutsu he learned was through experimentation and devilish means.
Plus, that opens up RP channels for people who want to have scientist-like characters like myself >_>
A fair point on Teo's side.
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Eric

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2015, 07:29:24 AM »


More so I don't get why it's allowed, but everyone else doesn't mind it so I cannot just neglect it because I don't like it.

Quote
Reversed Engineered? (Still not sure how this works)...

Then I can see why Kayenta took offense to this line. I think just "Reverse Engineered" or simply adding her to the main list is reasonable.
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Ryu

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2015, 08:15:30 PM »

The whole reverse engineering process just seems questionsble.

If you can learn a technique like Hiraishin by just "reverse engineering" it then it loses it's recognition as a lethal technique and becomes equal to the bunshin jutsu, a technique that is only effective if you know how to use it.

If this is being accepted then Hiraishin is as good as mine, not that I want it.

Reverse engineering isn't even simple enough for this to be possible since each Hiraishin user has their own seal, from my understanding, making it almost impossible to decipher the technique unless you are the person himself. Also it isn't a machine where you can take it apart and figure it out. It is a sealing formula which could just be something the user made from the top of his head and can't be found in any scrolls.

So Shadow( or Madara >>) would be right in not understanding how it works because no one is giving a good enough reason for how reverse engineering the technique is a valid option. Anyone up for reverse engineering Edo Tensei?
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Dart Terumī

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2015, 09:37:05 PM »


I don't see what is so difficult to understand about that. Kotetsu can make a mechanical arm that uses chakra to cause it to move with life like reality. And that is fine. how did he do it? With his blacksmithing and crafting skill.

I used my sealing skill. Warren uses his Sage skill for his things. Kamui uses his Uchiha skills for his things. Isaribi uses his Suiton skills for his things. Gitsune her Kayguya skills and so on and so forth. There is not Kaguya make a bone gate for the village jutsu. And yet Kiri now has one. And it is pretty darned fine in my book.

Eiko made the bone gates. Gitsune doesn't possess the Shikotsumyaku.
Irrelevant, I know.

Anywho, when Kay first learned the technique, I confronted her on it because I was a similar mind as some of you guys about it. However, after she explained her process and reading over the RP for it, well, it's pretty legit and we have to accept that.

The only way could reverse-engineer it is if someone was foolish enough to just leave the seal scattered about. Now, I'm not giving an approval for a mass amount of people to go out and start reverse-engineer leaning it just this second, but if a chance allows itself and your character actually is a fūinjutsu specialist (not just decided on the spot; someone who has RP'd the entire time as an actual specialist with people to support that claim), and they discover someone's Hirasihin seal, then proceed to go through the MONTHS that she went through to break it down and learn it trial and error, then I would recognize their dedication and RP.
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2015, 11:24:52 PM »

I have not read the replies yet and won't for a few hours, but I changed the list. However I'm still putting Reversed Engineered next to your name as a way of knowing how this person got that thing.

EDIT: Read it.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 11:26:45 PM by Madara (Shadow) »
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UettoSenju

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2015, 03:46:00 AM »

The only issue I have with reverse engineer I that it was not stated in te manga it could be done. I feel if it could then it would have. I'm sure Oro could have done it if it could have been done.

I just think it is something that must be taught or learned from a scroll. I figur that the 4th learned it from a scroll left by the 2nd.

I can't say it isn't possible I just think highly highly unlikely unless the manga was to show some example of it.


Other then that I find it interesting all these people have FTG an have no idea what it's true meanin is. Or how to truly use it. Hell not even Dark probably knows or recalls.  #SenjuGrandTree
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Trev

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2015, 03:57:57 AM »

If this is gonna be allowed, someone should edit the wiki, written by Dark on the wiki.

"As they're composed of chakra, all Hiraishin seals are able to be sensed or viewed by those with sensory or ocular prowess, respectively. However, the Hiraishin seals cannot be reverse-engineered, copied or cloned in any way."

I don't care if it's allowed or not, but if it is, this should be changed. That way Kayenta isn't in direct violation of the rules, and thus could stop being pursued by people following the "rules". Though I do see where they're coming from, as I'd defend the Edo Tensei rules if they were broken.
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Genesis

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2015, 04:19:02 AM »

I'm fine Kay having it, but damn, I need to program some Antivirus fuinjutsu into my Hirashin now...
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Eric

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Re: Hiraishin (flying Thunder God) LIST
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2015, 04:22:57 AM »

The whole reverse engineering process just seems questionsble.

If you can learn a technique like Hiraishin by just "reverse engineering" it then it loses it's recognition as a lethal technique and becomes equal to the bunshin jutsu, a technique that is only effective if you know how to use it.

If this is being accepted then Hiraishin is as good as mine, not that I want it.

Reverse engineering isn't even simple enough for this to be possible since each Hiraishin user has their own seal, from my understanding, making it almost impossible to decipher the technique unless you are the person himself. Also it isn't a machine where you can take it apart and figure it out. It is a sealing formula which could just be something the user made from the top of his head and can't be found in any scrolls.

So Shadow( or Madara >>) would be right in not understanding how it works because no one is giving a good enough reason for how reverse engineering the technique is a valid option. Anyone up for reverse engineering Edo Tensei?


Every technique is limited by the experience and expertise of the user. Even hiraishin.

Quote
... What makes hiraishin so special is that it does not require any handsigns to create nor to use, and does not harm the user upon usage. Since the seals are typically not all that well protected by the average user, gaining access to one of them is not a once in a lifetime opportunity. It is also specifically designated as using a technique formula, so most if not all of the information regarding the intricicies of the technique can likely be found in each hiraishin seal. Conversely, all that could be in it is the users' chakra and nothing more, but I find that unlikely.

This reverse engineering is seeming more BS to me. 'Decoding' the seal doesn't automatically grant you the ability to use the jutsu in my opinion let alone if you could decode it. What info are you going on that allows you to pick apart the seal? Each Hiraishin seal is unique to the user. Of course there would be similarities for the teleport part, but all else would differ as said. As far as I know the secrets are kept to the users and no one has rp'ed giving the general knowledge of breaking down the seal.

And for those 'seal' masters out there who broke it down. I once again ask what info are you going off of? I don't imagine there's a book you all use to decode it.


Tl;Dr: The answer is literally in the technique, or in the case of hiraishin, in the technique formula.


Well, although it is never really explained in the series, Minato got hiraishin no jutsu from somewhere. The 2nd Hokage created the technique, and Minato was definitely not old enough to have learned directly from him, so unless there were a lineage of hiraishin users that never got introduced, Minato either learned it from a scroll or reverse engineered it.

Hiraishin is the same jutsu almost no matter who uses it. The differences between the technique formulas would either be to different dimenional voids (in line with the different pocket dimenison of Kamui line of thinking) or simply because, like writing a piece of code, each iteration of hiraishin follows a basic formula, but structures it slightly differently.

When decoding/decrypting a technique formula of any type, be it fuinjutsu or otherwise, the key is that the derived technique is either the original technique (including original formula) or a modified version based off of the original technique. Techniques similar to it can be invented without the original code, but that's not reverse engineering, that's just coming up with a different way to do the same thing without having a sample to work with, which would likely take longer than just borrowing someone else's code.

A space-time ninjutsu has to have a few basic principles in the narutoveres to make it function:

1) How does it teleport the user from place to place?

2) How does it determine the area of effect?

3) How fast does it move the user, and does this have any detrimental effects on the user?

4) What is the mode of inscription (seals) if any for the technique?

5) Is the technique a two-way streak, in that one can go to and from the different dimension that may or may not serve as a medium between teleportation.

In a technique formula where all the user has to do is think (literally, at will people put forth) most of this information has to be found in the technique formula, or otherwise has to be formed by the user manually.

Take these two examples:

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Thunder_Formation_Technique

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Thunder_God_Technique

The former demonstrates the use of handseals and a specific formation in combination with the marker on Tsunade. The hiraishin mark on her serves as the desstination, while the formation serves as the area of effect (more likely than not, Tsunade could also be brought to the platoon via this jutsu, but I'm not sure).

The latter is literally think and it is done.

In the case of Kamui, all of this information would be stored in the eye. Hence, "decoding" Kamui is next to impossible unless you start becoming a biological genius who can decrypt cell information as if it were the written word, and even then, you would need a living sample in order to observe its function from start to finish for the most accurate record keeping purposes.


For those who do not use hiraishin directly to decode, it is a matter of speculation. The summoning jutsu, if it were condenesd into a technique formula (as my Jounin Exams fight presented) can be a knock-off hiraishin that, with some tweaks, could rival it presuming knowledge of will-activated technique formulas is known to the user...


Except for the detail that both of the cited hiraishin techniques are, by and large, the same technique, the rest of the above quote is pretty much my take on it.

I'm fine Kay having it, but damn, I need to program some Antivirus fuinjutsu into my Hirashin now...

Funnily enough, Tommi had a way to pirate other user's hiraishin marks, so if someone who knew hiraishin wanted to use your mark, I think you would need a DoS counter-attack of sorts that would emit the moment someone attempted to hack into it.
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