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Author Topic: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.  (Read 8775 times)

Camel

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2015, 07:02:10 PM »

FTG can't escape it cause you'd need a link to the other seal. While in kamui ALL links are cut off to the outside world. You can't bypass that.

If it's inescapable under certain circumstances then I'm inclined to believe you. Otherwise it's like I said,
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"Then again now that I think about it more, a user of FTG would be smart enough to *not* get themselves caught within the space-time technique.  (Remember Minato?)"

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Garō, Ichirou

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2015, 07:03:25 PM »

Theyre unable to escape physically, but space time ninjutsu

We have to look at thinga differently because a user of space time ninjutsu was never brought into akamui realm, excluding other users of kamui
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KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2015, 07:05:58 PM »

I would like to formally object to the use of the word niggas, or any racially biased derivative. Regardless of intent, I have seen this used quite frequently of late here on the forum and while I was willing to let it go in the Rap session board [due to that being poetic licence that is used frequently in rap, offensive as it is. It is often times part of the art form] here when it is name calling I am compelled to speak out. It is just simply not required. Thank you.

I have a question concerning the topic and am very interested to see how the discussions progresses.

I view FTG as ripping through space, not popping into another dimension, and am leaning toward Shadow's description where he limits it to one plane of existence. I can use it in this plane to get from spot to spot only in this plane, or in a Kamui dimension to only travel within that Kamui dimension. A directly to B.

While I see the Kamui ability as opening a window to another dimension that you can enter an inbetween place to travel through. A to B to C.

Additionally, I saw some speculation concerning these Kamui dimensions. Some say it all goes to one pocket world. Others say it is specific to each eye, where they all have their own dimension different from anyone else. Thoughts?
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Garō, Ichirou

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2015, 07:09:41 PM »

I still believe that the kamui dimensions are specific to each pair of kamui eyes, and can only travel between other kamui dimensions freely when theyve been synchronized. But i believe they could travel to their own kamui dimension from within the other one just not back
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Ѕhadow

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2015, 07:10:16 PM »

It's all a dimension for each user. Not all linked. As in Kakashi and Obito's case. Two eye from the same person; on dimension or Sasuke could've kamui'ed into their fight if all the dimensions were linked.
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I'm going to agree with you on some things and disagree with you on some things.

Something that can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2015, 07:17:57 PM »

Now here is another speculation.

Since FTG is not a doujutsu, the Uchiha ability providing the dimensional travel, what justification is there to permit it to be able to open the dimension to escape or to enter? One would think that since this is such a KG specific thing, while the FTG is not, that it would not have the capability to undo the Kamui.

Additionally, The reverse summons feels to me the same issue. Why would that permit you to undo this KG effect?
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Ѕhadow

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2015, 07:24:11 PM »

FTG and summoning works in one dimension. That's how I see it. Not multi or cross dimensional. It's never been shown to be able to thus we go by what is shown. And what is shown is one dimensional travel.

Also Kamui eliminates you from Earth. You're no longer connected. It cuts off all traces. Why would you be able to FTG to a kunai outside of kamui when you're cut off from that kunai? Makes no sense.
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I'm going to agree with you on some things and disagree with you on some things.

Something that can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Trev

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2015, 11:30:38 PM »

You might be able to Kamui yourself out of someone elses Kamui, maybe. I doubt you can use ftg though or Obito trying to grab and kamui minato would be useless.
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Kage

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2015, 12:33:00 AM »

Let's be honest here. This is really about the fight.

Most of the things past chapter 600 was it? ARE VOIDED. We did that months ago. I'l have to find the topic, but yeah.
Except for anything relating to Kamui, apparently.

But let's hold-up here. We'll have to break down what Space–Time Ninjutsu is first.

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By manipulating a specific point of space, the user can warp anything targeted into a dimensional void and teleport it to another location instantaneously. Minato Namikaze, Obito Uchiha, Sasuke Uchiha, Kakashi Hatake, Tobirama Senju and Kaguya Ōtsutsuki are skilled users of space–time ninjutsu.

All summoning-based techniques are space–time manipulation related, as they warp the targets through a dimensional void to the summoner's location.[1]

Space–Time Ninjutsu allows one to bypass any Barrier Ninjutsu, as barriers only extend over the dimension they are placed upon, which cannot prevent Space–Time Ninjutsu users from escaping to the dimensional void and then back outside of the barrier's confines.[2][3][4]

It appears that each specific space-time technique has its own unique dimensional void that other techniques cannot normally access.[5] However, a user can synchronise their respective dimension with the other one to gain access to it. To achieve this feat, however, requires much more chakra.[6]

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Space%E2%80%93Time_Ninjutsu

So basically you're creating a hole, called a dimensional void, in space-time that acts as a shortcut to get instantaneously from one place to another. The issue here that we're trying to pinpoint is cross-dimensional travel. But really, cross-dimensional travel is the BASIS of ALL Space–Time Ninjutsu if you're creating a dimensional void to slip though the ordinary confines of the space-time continuum. This is EXACTLY how Kamui works as well. Though you're actually able to stay in this dimensional void, instead of just slip through it. That's a big part of what makes Kamui so special, along with not needing seals or a summoning tattoo to perform.

Heck, to escape Kaguya's Dimension after Kaguya got sealed, who was the only one that could take people in and out at that time, Hagoromo and the past kages performed the Summoning Technique to bring Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, Sakura, Madara, Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu, Son Goku, Kokuo, Saiken, Chomei, Gyuki and Kurama. Granted it did take a bit of extra man-power to summon all nine Tailed Beasts. Even in the Gaiden, Sasuke mentions traveling back and forth between Kaguya's Dimension and the regular world.

http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-691-page-16.html

http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-709-page-19.html

But if we're voiding anything not relating to Kamui past chapter 600, then most of this info is useless. But even if we're going with that silly notion, there's also this info on how Hiraishin works.

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To activate this technique, the user places a special seal or "technique formula" (術式, jutsu-shiki) to mark an intended destination. After this is done, they can at will enter a dimensional void that instantaneously transports them to the location of the seal.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Thunder_God_Technique

And I do have some bias in this, as I was asked to reply to this topic. But that doesn't mean my input can be outright voided based on that. Otherwise, we'll have to weed out 65% of the replies in this thread.
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Warren

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2015, 01:39:44 AM »

I like to say kamui isn't a dimension, but rather a doujutsu to cross them. Its descended from sharinnegan anyway so its not at all strange it can go places, that dark one just is what it has a particular affinity with for whatever reason. Nevermind the silliness of the idea that an entire dimension came into being each time a kamui mangekyo was formed, I do have a few reasons I think there's only one of them.

Kamui can teleport you around, meaning the dimension you go to clearly overlaps enough with the main one for you to be able to move around. If it was limited to your eye only, you'd be able to swoop in and out just on the spot, since after all, your eyes can't exist everywhere in the world at once >_>;

Another bit is the intangibility. The overlapping part is phased to the other dimension, yet not entirely, since if it was you'd have just ripped a gaping hole into yourself and most likely committed suicide. Sketchy as hell, but about only way at least I can see it working again is that its its own full dimension that overlaps with this one, allowing you to phase out a part just enough to turn intangible, yet not completely so you don't get rekt by your own jutsu. If you were sending stuff inside your eye instead, I can't really imagine another outcome than just a bloody mess.

Lastly the fact you can go elsewhere with it, especially with both eyes. Being eye specific would mean you can only get in and out of there, but nope, if you synchro with somebody you can follow them even from afar, appear in there about where you wish instead of with the person. Top it off you can even go to 'kamui' dimension and come back there too, proving you can basically go anywhere as long as you know the location and have the chakra. Hell, with both eyes you can even literally rip a hole open to physically see into the other dimension. If it was eye specific in turn, most you could really do in another dimension is just hide in your eyes, basically get in your own pocket in someone elses pocket, pocketception.

Summarized, I believe every kamui type mangekyo by default goes to the same dimension, which quite closely overlaps the main one. And due to this overlapping is why I believe its so easy for them too, as opposed to going into other ones. Obito did mention himself of Kaguya's places being 'incredibly far', so he'd need significantly more chakra than he had to get to it.

So to close on my view of the kamui thing, if a kamui user takes another user into the dimension, it wouldn't really be any more difficult to get out than to just wormhole yourself out.

To briefly address hiraishin, I believe it only really briefly pops you out of this dimension, to a kind of border realm like rinnegan's limbo, then back out again, not into a whole other dimension. Since that'd mean you kinda still are here even as you poof, you'd only really be able to do it inside that dimension, so if you got taken to 'kamui dimension' you'd be stuck teleporting around inside there only. You'd have to get help or make some non-canon jutsu of your own with it, and that's a whole new can of worms.

Summoning I can't say much about, since while known info suggests its basically the same as hiraishin, moving stuff around only inside the same dimension, Hagoromo and kages did summon the bijuu and team 7 out of Kaguya's dimension. However, Hagoromo did mention he was going to do some specific special jutsu for massive chakra amounts, not just a typical summoning, so its highly likely this was either some special rinnegan-only thing if not even Hagoromo's own unique techniques.

Edit: reread the few panels, looks like the special technique was bringing kages back without edo tensei. The fact both Hagoromo and Sasuke were able to pierce into other dimensions though, and not really anyone else, implies its a rinnegan/sharinnegan talent. I imagine Hagoromo made the connection while the kages supplied the power, whereas Sasuke used his own power which led to his eye power weakening temporarily due to how draining it was.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 01:44:38 AM by Warren »
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KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2015, 01:46:13 AM »

Well this explanation seems to make sense to me.
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Kage

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2015, 02:26:11 AM »

It's still all distance-based. And it was shown that with enough chakra, you can cross that distance. And the fact that the Summoning Technique itself was used to bring them back, means that it's not limited to the Rinnegan. It's really more limited to how much chakra one can muster. It took the chakra pools of Obito and Sakura to reach out and open voids to some of Kaguya's other dimensions.

The whole point again of Space-Time Ninjutsu, is opening voids that are snippets in the space-time continuum that get you from one place to another instantly. There are simply different mediums when going about it.
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Warren

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2015, 02:49:49 AM »

Don't think so really. If everything went through 'kamui dimension', then considering Obito's ability to repel Kakashi's wormholes he wouldn't have had any trouble whatsoever catching Minato, he wouldn't have been able to jump anywhere. Alternatively he could have just hung around there, waiting for something or someone to appear, snatch them out of it mid-transfer.

Every kamui mangekyo going to same dimension I do dig, its what I RP by, but the place being THAT universal I just don't and wont buy.
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Mei

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2015, 03:03:33 AM »

Most of the things past chapter 600 was it? ARE VOIDED. We did that months ago. I'l have to find the topic, but yeah.

"Kamui allows the user to transfer targets to and from another dimension, from which they are unable to escape. "

It doesn't say they may be able to it only says they can't.

Where's the proof that this dimension is inescapable though?
Yeah, Wikia said it but we all should know that to take that too seriously.
Even the original wording from the databook does not mention anything about it being inescapable.

We do know that ninjutsu can be used within the dimension via Kakashi vs Obito's fight.
Since you're all by the "every kamui mangekyo going to same dimension" thing.
From the fight, we know that Kamui can be used to escape the dimension as well.

http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/683/7
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/684/14
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/685/19

Based on those pages, I feel like FTG cannot escape out of a different dimension because I think it's a tech that works in only one dimension. Obito was able to access the other dimensions because the current dimension he was in were linked to the others. If not, I don't think Obito would have been able to reach Sasuke. So it's not like Kamui can give you "free" access to other dimensions. You just only have your own 'pocket dimension' to work with.

Personally, I'm not fond of Kamui. It's worse than FTG in terms of annoyance when people use it to dodge/escape from danger. >.>




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Warren

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Re: A dimension inside a dimension means we need to go one level deeper.
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2015, 04:53:32 AM »

From what I can tell its not 'kamui dimension' that's linked to others though, but rather the first one of Kaguya's that's linked to all of her rest.
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