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Author Topic: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin  (Read 6269 times)

KayentaMoenkopi

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Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« on: October 06, 2016, 02:42:28 AM »

SO I read one of the fights, at least the concluding post. this will have no baring on the fight at all. I just want to gain some knowledge.

Quote
Unfortunately for Teostra, the chains wouldn't break. In fact the moment he touched the chains he would be immobilized to an extent and in a great deal of pain, as the chains Ray used were the demonic statue chains. Since the chains themselves are capable of ensnaring the tailed beasts with little effort. The only way out of the chains would be through an outside force though the Ray wouldn't let him try anything funny.

Seeing as the chains had snagged Teo into place, Ray was able to see his location thanks to the Rinnegan's ability to see chakra. From here Ray would muster up nearly 60% of his overall chakra to send Teo into his own kamui dimension via Flying Thunder God. Since Teo is in constant contact with Ray's chakra when touching the chains, the FTG tech would allow Ray to instantaneously send someone or something to a marker at the cost of a severe amount of chakra. The marker Teo would be sent to, would be the marker Ray had placed in his kamui dimension meaning Teo had no way of escape and would be trapped in an abyss.

SInce Ray used up 60% of his overall chakra, He would have a hard time even breathing as he would fall backwards atop his Rex's head and breathed heavy like trying to remain conscious. Of course should Teo somehow escape then Ray would have never of lost the 60% chakra and wouldn't be tuckered out though the likelihood of that was low.

Hiraishin

And sorry Ray and Teostra...not trying to pick on anyone. I just have a question.
a few...

I think this move is not legit. why? Well maybe I just don't know how stuff works.

1] The rinnegan is active...the detection of Teo's chakra, the demonic statue chains
2] Rinnegan can't open Kamui pockets...and one is not activated?
3] Hiraishin cannot transport people across dimensions, only through the current one they are upon.

ok everyone, please point out why my assumptions here are wrong? I need some education.
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Hitler-Chan

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2016, 02:45:52 AM »

This is the sort of thing better suited for PM's, if you just wanted to solicit information I am sure you could have written a spam message and sent it out. D: Just putting the guy on blast is rude as shit.
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Becquerel

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2016, 02:54:54 AM »

I believe that this would be a good thing to discuss, because it pertains to using a technique that MANY people use. And since the decision for the fight has already been made, there should be no reason to not talk about it :)

But I agree that I was a little confused on the whole situation as well. I always thought that using Kamui to transport something required you to actually either be looking at it or in direct (or close) contact with it. We've seen it with Tobi doing it to those two ninja he captured from Danzo's crew. But, it looks like he basically teleported Kamui with Hiraishin to its destination (Teostra) through the chakra chains as a medium. Doesn't Hiraishin require a marker to be placed on an object before it can be transported? Kamui is more of a conceptual technique than a physical one. I can understand maybe putting a marker on a fireball and teleporting it to another marker, but, kamui operates by focusing on a single point with your eyes and warping that thing you're looking at.

I really have no idea how it would be possible to warp something that literally can not be marked. It'd be like trying to yell out, place a marker on the word you just yelled, and teleport it over to some other place. It'd be a very convoluted way to be a ventriloquist, that's for sure lol
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Iburi Ray

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2016, 03:02:06 AM »

I don't feel picked on, and hell I would be asking questions too. But From what I read Hiraishin can be used with marker or the creators chakra right? The demonic statue chains are made up of my chakra, and since it is connected to Teostra he is touching my chakra. Using the chains as a medium I used Hirishin to teleport Teo to my Kamui dimension on which a marker was already in place. Now in between those actions I had to muster up 60% of my overall chakra, there is a point to where he could have broken the chains and fled, though sturdy the chains can break. I mean hate me for if you will, I was using the canon logic,
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2016, 03:16:24 AM »

Had this same issue with Ichirou awhile back. Overall it was in my favor.

FTG allows you to teleport only in one dimension. Remember that when Obito or Kakashi go into their dimension that their chakra completely disappears. That's one reason I believe FTG can't work in Kamui. The chakra is cut off thus can't teleport to a chakra source that isn't 'there'.

If you were on one side of your kamui dimension and then had another seal in the dimension 500 miles away, sure. But having it work on 2 (or at this point) all dimensional plains isn't something I see as true.

It allows the user to teleport to any pre-destined location via mark on the same dimensional plain.


Also for everything ever to go into or out of the Kamui dimension they've had to use the actual jutsu.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Obito have a FTG seal on him? Yet during the whole thing with black zetsu and all that never once did Naruto or Minato FTG him.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 03:24:52 AM by Madara (Shadow) »
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Becquerel

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2016, 03:21:59 AM »

We've never seen it utilized in that kind of manner though. Saying that Hiraishin would be able to transport things across dimensions is a little far-fetched. Because dimensions have no way of communicating to each other without some kind of medium (kamui/Kaguya's ability) that allows for that communication, you should effectively be cut off from that. Shadow I think explained it the best.
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Iburi Ray

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2016, 03:22:52 AM »

I'm not one to be a dick about disproving why something I did didn't work. So if Teo or Warren pointed this out, I would of said "Oh okay" And went about things a separate way I had thought up in case this one I did post was vetoed.
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Uchiha Madara

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2016, 04:38:13 AM »

I think Flying Thunder God should work considering:

1. All Space-Time jutsu work on a similar principal.

2. Using a Space-Time jutsu to leave a dimension has been done (Obito's use of Kamui to access Kaguya's Dimensions, Edo Tensei summoning souls from the Pure Land, Sasuke's use of his jutsu to move from Kaguya's Dimensions and back, the use of Space-Time Ninjutsu to move from Momoshiki's planet and back, Sasuke was able to teleport Madara's Limbo Clone (which reside in another dimension) and Hagoromo's summoning of both the dead and alive from the Pure Land and Kaguya's Dimensions. So there are plenty of examples of this being done.

3. There hasn't been any evidence suggesting  it wouldn't work. If anything, at most it seems to me that it would cost more chakra on part of the user to move things across dimensions (Sasuke's eyes weakening, the chakra toll on Obito, Kaguya's own use of her jutsu, etc.)

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Trev

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2016, 04:49:05 AM »

Had this same issue with Ichirou awhile back. Overall it was in my favor.

FTG allows you to teleport only in one dimension. Remember that when Obito or Kakashi go into their dimension that their chakra completely disappears. That's one reason I believe FTG can't work in Kamui. The chakra is cut off thus can't teleport to a chakra source that isn't 'there'.

If you were on one side of your kamui dimension and then had another seal in the dimension 500 miles away, sure. But having it work on 2 (or at this point) all dimensional plains isn't something I see as true.

It allows the user to teleport to any pre-destined location via mark on the same dimensional plain.


Also for everything ever to go into or out of the Kamui dimension they've had to use the actual jutsu.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Obito have a FTG seal on him? Yet during the whole thing with black zetsu and all that never once did Naruto or Minato FTG him.

They used it once when they were fighting him, but I'm fairly certain at some point Obito removes it.

Also, it almost every case, hiraishin needs a seal to use, it's one fair and I don't recall it ever being done without hiraishin. Many people on SL have tried to pull a hiraishin without seal and almost always lose in a judge decisions. Cause they just do rain tiger at will, and say they can hiraishin everything since there chakra is everywhere.

Hiraishin without seal = big no

Going to a different dimension is up to debate
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Vail

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2016, 05:16:31 AM »

I think Flying Thunder God should work considering:

1. All Space-Time jutsu work on a similar principal.

2. Using a Space-Time jutsu to leave a dimension has been done (Obito's use of Kamui to access Kaguya's Dimensions, Edo Tensei summoning souls from the Pure Land, Sasuke's use of his jutsu to move from Kaguya's Dimensions and back, the use of Space-Time Ninjutsu to move from Momoshiki's planet and back, Sasuke was able to teleport Madara's Limbo Clone (which reside in another dimension) and Hagoromo's summoning of both the dead and alive from the Pure Land and Kaguya's Dimensions. So there are plenty of examples of this being done.

3. There hasn't been any evidence suggesting  it wouldn't work. If anything, at most it seems to me that it would cost more chakra on part of the user to move things across dimensions (Sasuke's eyes weakening, the chakra toll on Obito, Kaguya's own use of her jutsu, etc.)

Using a space-time ninjutsu to travel to another dimension has been done, yes, but none of those jutsu were Hiraishin.

Your third point is an argument from ignorance. You can't make up a conclusion that it would work, albeit at the cost of greater chakra, simply because there's no evidence to the contrary.

In fact, absence of evidence, which is the failure to observe evidence for a particular hypothesis (in this case the hypothesis that "using hiraishin to travel to another dimension is possible, albeit at a greater chakra cost"), is evidence against that hypothesis.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 05:17:53 AM by Vail »
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Eric

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2016, 05:57:59 AM »

If the portal to the Kamui dimension were opened while the hiraishin action is going on, I personally believe hiraishin would work in that case, since there is a portal open, meaning that to trap a hirasihin user inside of a kamui, in my opinion, require the trapper to effectively not use kamui for even a split moment, as the temporary reconnection to the other side would be just enough for a hiraishin user to bust their move.

In the series, hiraishining without a marker, and using chakra only, had been done during the 4th Great War arc (I forget where, this particular topic has definitely been discussed before) and a fair many considered it to be unsuitable for SL use, believe it or not.

Now, it's up to the judge to go one way or another, but I would have ruled against a Kamui usage with Rinnegan active, nevermind the hiraishin thing.
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Becquerel

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2016, 06:12:39 AM »

In the series, hiraishining without a marker, and using chakra only, had been done during the 4th Great War arc (I forget where, this particular topic has definitely been discussed before) and a fair many considered it to be unsuitable for SL use, believe it or not.

Not particularly related to the topic at hand, but isn't there a rule against using stuff from that part of the series? Or is that just a suggestion?
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Kage

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2016, 07:09:19 AM »

In the series, hiraishining without a marker, and using chakra only, had been done during the 4th Great War arc (I forget where, this particular topic has definitely been discussed before) and a fair many considered it to be unsuitable for SL use, believe it or not.

Not particularly related to the topic at hand, but isn't there a rule against using stuff from that part of the series? Or is that just a suggestion?
It's not an official rule at all. More like an agreement between certain players in the community. Were there anything official about it, I'm sure it would be an actual Biju rule.

A Tomoe-variant of the Rinnegan like Sasuke's is able to perform Mangekyou techniques, but it is inferred that this is merely the normal variant.

From what we've seen of Hiraishin, it only performs intra-dimensional travel. Amenotejikara is also able to do this. Techniques like Kamui, Amenominaka, Yomotsu Hirasaka, and Sasuke's unnamed dimension-traveling jutsu (which is granted by his special Rinnegan) allow inter-dimensional travel. Some can debate that the Summoning Technique when fueled with a vast amount of chakra (Hagoromo + all past kages) is also capable of doing both.

In short this situation should not be possible, but it is something both participants and judge rolled with. Things like this happen, and it's usually wise to consult with others on the nature and ability of certain things being performed in high-stake situations.
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Teostra

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2016, 08:37:44 AM »

Just for clarification, I did not agree with the action which is why I contacted the judge. Judge agreed with his actions and told me I could seek a separate judge, and I decided not to because it would have had to be a mutual agreement between myself and Ray. I got tired of contesting actions, which is why I just decided to let Ray win. I don't believe that it is a fair or even doable move, but I would rather just not have to put up with more like that. Considering the repost was pretty much the same thing as the initial post I had problems with, I decided not to deal with the headache of contesting it. Glad to know that what happened was bad on his end, so if it ever happens again it can just be written off as void.
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Uchiha Madara

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Re: Rinnegan, Sharingan, Hiraishin
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2016, 02:47:18 PM »

I think Flying Thunder God should work considering:

1. All Space-Time jutsu work on a similar principal.

2. Using a Space-Time jutsu to leave a dimension has been done (Obito's use of Kamui to access Kaguya's Dimensions, Edo Tensei summoning souls from the Pure Land, Sasuke's use of his jutsu to move from Kaguya's Dimensions and back, the use of Space-Time Ninjutsu to move from Momoshiki's planet and back, Sasuke was able to teleport Madara's Limbo Clone (which reside in another dimension) and Hagoromo's summoning of both the dead and alive from the Pure Land and Kaguya's Dimensions. So there are plenty of examples of this being done.

3. There hasn't been any evidence suggesting  it wouldn't work. If anything, at most it seems to me that it would cost more chakra on part of the user to move things across dimensions (Sasuke's eyes weakening, the chakra toll on Obito, Kaguya's own use of her jutsu, etc.)

Using a space-time ninjutsu to travel to another dimension has been done, yes, but none of those jutsu were Hiraishin.

Your third point is an argument from ignorance. You can't make up a conclusion that it would work, albeit at the cost of greater chakra, simply because there's no evidence to the contrary.

In fact, absence of evidence, which is the failure to observe evidence for a particular hypothesis (in this case the hypothesis that "using hiraishin to travel to another dimension is possible, albeit at a greater chakra cost"), is evidence against that hypothesis.

But why would Hiraishin be the special case if other space-time jutsu work in a similar manner? (I think as long as you have a seal placed in our world, one could make their way back) We would have to have evidence that Kamui has a sort of special Space-Time negation ability.

Its speculation sure, but I backed it up with support (what exactly the series shows happens when a Space-Time jutsu is used to escape another dimension almost every single time). Isn't equally ignorant to assume since we haven't seen Flying Thunder God do it, that it cannot? We need to look at the series itself and make a judgement on it, and to me, Kamui doesn't seem like it would stop this process for any particular reason.
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