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Poll

How should it work?

You can combine Bijuu and Sage chakra pre-mastery.
You cannot combine Bijuu and Sage chakra till you've mastered the Bijuu.
You cannot combine Bijuu and Sage chakra. Period.

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Author Topic: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?  (Read 9584 times)

Hazama

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Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« on: January 16, 2017, 03:29:19 PM »

This one keeps coming up. Can you combine the bijuu chakra you have access to with Sage Mode before completely mastering the beast? I'm saying yes because, according to the rules, I have access to a certain tier of bijuu power and no rule currently limits me from using it. So I think saying I cannot use the bijuu chakra I've earned goes against the rules.
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Trev

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2017, 06:50:28 PM »

No SL rule against it, but the canon disagrees. Naruto couldn't.

One could debate according to the canon that you can't do biju mode + sage mode

Or one can interpret it as you can't do Amphibian technique + biju mode.

Biju has to like you to allow one of the following above. At least in the case of Kurama and Naruto.

Edit: Or pre mastery, your biju also has to be pissed off at the opponent
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 06:55:12 PM by Trev »
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Eric

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2017, 07:04:18 PM »

What kind of mixture of biju chakra and sage chakra? Or do you mean being in sage mode at the same time as being in tailed beast mode? Enhancing sage attacks with biju chakra? I'm not really sure what kind of mixing you mean.
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Hazama

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2017, 07:06:42 PM »

It's not that there isn't a rule for it that is an issue to me but that the idea contradicts a current rule, namely that I can use X bijuu chakra at a certain point of time.

I could argue that my bijuu "likes" me enough to use whatever stage of transformation I have access to and so I should be able to use sage mode with it.

It's not that it's impossible but the bijuu can choose to interfere with the combination or the amphibian technique. So currently it's just character control to tell me what my bijuu can or can't feel like letting me do. There should be a rule made on it.
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Trev

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2017, 07:56:15 PM »

It's not that there isn't a rule for it that is an issue to me but that the idea contradicts a current rule, namely that I can use X bijuu chakra at a certain point of time.

I could argue that my bijuu "likes" me enough to use whatever stage of transformation I have access to and so I should be able to use sage mode with it.

It's not that it's impossible but the bijuu can choose to interfere with the combination or the amphibian technique. So currently it's just character control to tell me what my bijuu can or can't feel like letting me do. There should be a rule made on it.

You could argue that, could even argue Chomei is different than Kurama. Could also be interpreted as you attempting to gain a boon before you should be able to.

It's from my viewpoint that you shouldn't be able to based off the few instances we've seen in the manga. But you could argue it from a biju personality standpoint. See what everyone else says I suppose?

Context for everyone
http://www3.mangafreak.net/Read1_Naruto_425_5#gohere
http://anime.stackexchange.com/questions/36772/what-episode-did-naruto-combine-nine-tails-chakra-mode-and-sage-mode
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 08:00:08 PM by Trev »
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Hazama

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2017, 08:09:01 PM »

Right now its basically just whatever your opinion is. We should make a rule on this.
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Dart Terumī

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 08:32:57 PM »

I think that the player has to choose to use either Sage Mode with stacks or Bijū Mode with stacks, not both at the same time.

As depicted in the Manga, Naruto had to cancel out his Kurama Mode in order to fight the Third Raikage in Sage Mode. And in the manga, he was in Sage Mode initially then used some of Kurama's chakra but he never enter Kurama Mode itself.

In fact, if memory serves correctly, the only time he was ever able to meld Kurama Mode and Sage Mode is when he had access to Six Paths Chakra, which doesn't exist in SL.


So, I say that it should be one or the other. Not both at the same time.
That way we keep the scales balanced out and don't have OP bs attacks.
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Hazama

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 09:07:45 PM »

No that's not true. He entered kyuubi sage mode the first time in chapter 645.

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/645/8

And he doesn't gain the six paths chakra till chapter 670

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/670/3

Kyuubi sage mode and six paths sage mode are two different things.
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Eric

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 10:35:15 PM »

No that's not true. He entered kyuubi sage mode the first time in chapter 645.

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/645/8

And he doesn't gain the six paths chakra till chapter 670

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/670/3

Kyuubi sage mode and six paths sage mode are two different things.

Requiring full mastery of both sage mode and the biju chakras in order to perfectly balance biju and sage chakras seems reasonable to me. I'm with Trev on the idea, but as far as a formal biju fight may go, it's up to the judge. Any other RP would be judged by whoever has the most support on the idea, so whatever applies to your situation I guess.
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Rusaku

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2017, 11:49:21 PM »

Isn't it suggested in the rules that beasts are largely antagonistic towards their hosts; more specifically when it comes to summons, but still.

Kurama rejected the toads, because he was "evil" at the time of the attempted fusion. So...I would assume that means all beasts would do the same when it comes to SL, unless they have the beast fully mastered and achieved "friendship" with it, in order for it to be OK with the fusion.

Though I agree with Dart that those two stacks should remain independant for the time being. Consider this: Kurama mode was set at a 6(?)X multiplier when Bocc was using it. So if you mix Sage mode in that, which has been set as a 3X multiplier, then that would result in a whopping 18X multiplier that basically says "Nope, you're not fast enough to react to anything, so I'm just gonna go ahead and auto hit."

I mean, look at the Kaze fight for the nine tails where he just plagiarized Bocc's post from his fight with Yujo. I say plagiarize because it's totally not Bocc behind these Kaze fights, amIright? Literally round one he used Sage/Biju enhanced lightning chakra mode to just bypass any possible way to avoid dying without a retro post or meta gaming or something equally as scummy that can be set up in the fraction of a millisecond it takes him to reach you.
 
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Hazama

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2017, 12:01:43 AM »

No that's not true. He entered kyuubi sage mode the first time in chapter 645.

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/645/8

And he doesn't gain the six paths chakra till chapter 670

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/670/3

Kyuubi sage mode and six paths sage mode are two different things.

Requiring full mastery of both sage mode and the biju chakras in order to perfectly balance biju and sage chakras seems reasonable to me. I'm with Trev on the idea, but as far as a formal biju fight may go, it's up to the judge. Any other RP would be judged by whoever has the most support on the idea, so whatever applies to your situation I guess.

I understand but that fact that it has come up in two fights in a row now makes me think there should be a rule addressing it.

If we do want to limit it I think it should apply to Rinnegan users too though, just something like, "Until you master your bijuu you cannot use Sage Mode/Rinnegan at the same time as bijuu modes." Otherwise it would just be an unfair handicap to Sage Mode users.

Personally I don't think we should limit it since Sage Mode is a better multiplier than the bijuu modes so if you have Sage Mode and become a Jinchuriki then there's basically no reason to use your bijuu powers, other than the passive elemental KG, until you master it.

Also I've always considered the multipliers additive not multiplicative, it would be x9 not times x18. That's what I was told and I know even Bocch claimed that so no I don't think anyone could get away with that.

And yeah since you're going to whine about me using Bocch regardless of what actually happens I figure'd I'd just do that to screw with you considering how perfectly Genesis set it up for me.
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Teostra

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2017, 12:15:43 AM »

How do you guys even multiply abstract concepts? >_> Like, if I move 'fast' and I multiply 'fast' by two or three, how fast does that make me on a scale from Sea Sponge to Sanic?

But I don't see how you could use something like that without first mastering your beast anyway.
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Hazama

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2017, 12:18:29 AM »

How do you guys even multiply abstract concepts? >_> Like, if I move 'fast' and I multiply 'fast' by two or three, how fast does that make me on a scale from Sea Sponge to Sanic?

But I don't see how you could use something like that without first mastering your beast anyway.

There's just couple things that have an agreed upon value. Sage mode being x3 and such.
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Rusaku

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2017, 12:39:11 AM »

And yeah since you're going to whine about me using Bocch regardless of what actually happens I figure'd I'd just do that to screw with you considering how perfectly Genesis set it up for me.

Lol like me personally? Yeah, because I've totally complained about you letting someone else use your account to stay on a game their banned from.

Shoot, sorry.

Yeah, because I've complained about you using someones retired character to switch things up in an otherwise stale game. Damn Autocorrect.

No that's not true. He entered kyuubi sage mode the first time in chapter 645.

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/645/8

And he doesn't gain the six paths chakra till chapter 670

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/670/3

Kyuubi sage mode and six paths sage mode are two different things.

Requiring full mastery of both sage mode and the biju chakras in order to perfectly balance biju and sage chakras seems reasonable to me. I'm with Trev on the idea, but as far as a formal biju fight may go, it's up to the judge. Any other RP would be judged by whoever has the most support on the idea, so whatever applies to your situation I guess.

I understand but that fact that it has come up in two fights in a row now makes me think there should be a rule addressing it.

If we do want to limit it I think it should apply to Rinnegan users too though, just something like, "Until you master your bijuu you cannot use Sage Mode/Rinnegan at the same time as bijuu modes." Otherwise it would just be an unfair handicap to Sage Mode users.

Personally I don't think we should limit it since Sage Mode is a better multiplier than the bijuu modes so if you have Sage Mode and become a Jinchuriki then there's basically no reason to use your bijuu powers, other than the passive elemental KG, until you master it.

Also I've always considered the multipliers additive not multiplicative, it would be x9 not times x18. That's what I was told and I know even Bocch claimed that so no I don't think anyone could get away with that.

What you "consider" means little to nothing if that point is not made public before a serious issue arises. You could easily change your opinions based on the situation at hand. "Oh, this fight will mean me winning a beast? Multiplicative." Or, "Oh this situation looks bad for me, so I need to act like I understand the concept of nerfing myself. Additive"

It's all situational unless that point is known on an individual basis, or its agreed upon on by larger group.

Me personally, I wouldn't add the nerf to rinnegan. It makes little sense to do so outside of what's "fair" for Sage users. It would have to be a SL exception for it to make sense. Though this could always just be another deterrent to getting a biju. We need more of those.

Honestly Teostra brings up a good point, one that has been mentioned numerous times before but never got decent attention. How do you honestly apply numbers to a conceptual game? Ok so you're good at something right? Well if you times good by 3 it makes amazing! Logic! I mean there is some logic behind that sentiment, flawed as it is.

If there is a multiplier for Sage mode, why not gates? I mean hell the first gate says it enhances your reflexes by 5 or something, but never references anything like that again in later stages. It's half assed details like this that creates loop holes for people to exploit. 
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Trev

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Re: Can you combine Bijuu Chakra and Sage Mode Chakra Pre-Mastery?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2017, 12:43:28 AM »

I personally don't really believe in the multipliers, as it just makes things messy. I just generally go with a pecking order of what things are better than what. Easier than quantifying it. But other people like to use it and sage mode being x 3 is a common thing players like to say.

As for my vote on the current matter. I would say add it to the rules. It's shown you can't do both in the manga, and a rule needs to be added as it is not common knowledge. I wouldn't even know if Bocc didn't tell me about it a few years ago. You need mastery, or your biju has to be pretty pissed off at your opponent.

I don't agree that the rule should be applied to Rinnegan users, as they don't have evidence to support such a claim. But I'm also all for nerfing, so I won't exactly fight such a decision particularly hard >>
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