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Author Topic: Instant Negation of Genjutsu  (Read 735 times)

Vail

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Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« on: March 11, 2017, 10:18:58 pm »

Hey everyone,

Hope you're having a good day / night. If not, I hope it gets better for you!

Now, this is something I've seen happen in quite a few fights on SL. Player A casts a genjutsu. Player B  not only notices that they've been caught in a genjutsu, but also dispels said genjutsu all in a span of time that's effectively instantaneous.

Here's a recent example of this (with name's redacted because I don't want to be that guy): "Thankfully she had her doujtusu active! Once ___ís genjutsu was cast, ____ was able to see through it and break it nearly as quickly as it was developed."

"Nearly as quickly as it was developed". That kind of thing comes off as incredibly cheap to me, even with Dojutsu. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the canon show that even Sharingan users had to take SOME time (enough time for an opponent to potentially capitalize on them being under a genjutsu) in order to dispel / reverse a genjutsu?

An example that comes to mind is when Kurenai and Itachi fought: Skip to 3:40. Itachi is a master with the sharingan, and yet nearly 2 dozen seconds passed before he reversed the genjutsu on Kurenai. I suppose one could argue that he chose to wait that long, but why would he do that instead of just reversing it as quickly as he could?

That aside, the point I'm making is that people shouldn't be allowed to just insta-break genjutsu because it reduces genjutsu to a meaningless aspect of the game. The only scenario that I can think of in which it'd be acceptable to do that is if I have EMS and a novice with no dojutsu tries to cast a genjutsu on me. But this insta-breaking of genjutsu definitely shouldn't be happening with "high level" people or people who both have dojutsu that make them more adept at genjutsu.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how we may mitigate this?
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Timothy

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 10:34:40 pm »

I've dealt with this dilemma several times myself. As much fun as it would be to trap someone within an illusion of sorts for several turns in a fight, I've ultimately resorted to minor sensory genjutsus which can help Tomi get out of a jam, IE, misdirect where his location is and yada yada. But like you said, people will often instant claim to get out of it or just 'don't look into the eyes' which the latter is a fair tactic against ocular types. If you noticed, even Sasuke when fighting Itachi before Tsukiyomi was active, often dealt with the crow dispersal genjutsu of Itachi's for evasion despite both of them having the Sharingan active. From what I've read, the main reason the sharingan can detect genjutsu so easily is because the fact it can see the several flaws projected by an illusion to notice there's something wrong with the picture, then check their own chakra network, yada yada. Weaker genjutsu which doesn't alter the scenery too much, thus has less flaws to detect is more likely to go undetected until after the fact by this logic.
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Vail

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 10:39:56 pm »

I've dealt with this dilemma several times myself. As much fun as it would be to trap someone within an illusion of sorts for several turns in a fight, I've ultimately resorted to minor sensory genjutsus which can help Tomi get out of a jam, IE, misdirect where his location is and yada yada. But like you said, people will often instant claim to get out of it or just 'don't look into the eyes' which the latter is a fair tactic against ocular types. If you noticed, even Sasuke when fighting Itachi before Tsukiyomi was active, often dealt with the crow dispersal genjutsu of Itachi's for evasion despite both of them having the Sharingan active. From what I've read, the main reason the sharingan can detect genjutsu so easily is because the fact it can see the several flaws projected by an illusion to notice there's something wrong with the picture, then check their own chakra network, yada yada. Weaker genjutsu which doesn't alter the scenery too much, thus has less flaws to detect is more likely to go undetected until after the fact by this logic.

Good point with the Sasuke and Itachi thing. Sasuke had his sharingan active and still had no idea that Itachi had cast a genjutsu on him.

I think you have it backward, though. A stronger genjutsu has less perceivable flaws.
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 11:25:18 pm »

I'll just add a little note. You can't instantly detect and negate genjutsu. Takes some time.
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Timothy

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 11:45:55 pm »

I've dealt with this dilemma several times myself. As much fun as it would be to trap someone within an illusion of sorts for several turns in a fight, I've ultimately resorted to minor sensory genjutsus which can help Tomi get out of a jam, IE, misdirect where his location is and yada yada. But like you said, people will often instant claim to get out of it or just 'don't look into the eyes' which the latter is a fair tactic against ocular types. If you noticed, even Sasuke when fighting Itachi before Tsukiyomi was active, often dealt with the crow dispersal genjutsu of Itachi's for evasion despite both of them having the Sharingan active. From what I've read, the main reason the sharingan can detect genjutsu so easily is because the fact it can see the several flaws projected by an illusion to notice there's something wrong with the picture, then check their own chakra network, yada yada. Weaker genjutsu which doesn't alter the scenery too much, thus has less flaws to detect is more likely to go undetected until after the fact by this logic.

Good point with the Sasuke and Itachi thing. Sasuke had his sharingan active and still had no idea that Itachi had cast a genjutsu on him.

I think you have it backward, though. A stronger genjutsu has less perceivable flaws.

Hmm, guess I did word that a little wrong. By 'weak' I meant genjutsu which doesn't alter scenery too much ie small scale. I was suggesting large scale genjutsus which alter more of the senses with various hallucinations are more likely to have more flaws which can be detected.
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Becquerel

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2017, 12:19:00 am »

The fact that people break out of genjutsu in an instant probably has something to do with the fact that a split second could determine a win/loss. So that means that people probably lost things because they got caught in a genjutsu and then claimed said genjutsu was auto-hitting because they couldn't get out of it fast enough so genjutsu was pretty much dropped. That's what I believe, at least.
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Eric

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2017, 12:36:55 am »

I don't believe in instant dispersal of genjutsu, even for sharingan users, much for the same reason you state. Even for really weak ones, a second is a more reasonable timetable.

Quote
"Thankfully she had her doujtusu active! Once ___ís genjutsu was cast, ____ was able to see through it and break it nearly as quickly as it was developed."


Now in a biju fight, depending on how long it took to cast the genjutsu, that could reaaally go against the player breaking the genjutsu. Anything requiring handsigns would definitely have required more time to develop than near instant.
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Vail

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2017, 12:42:55 am »

I've dealt with this dilemma several times myself. As much fun as it would be to trap someone within an illusion of sorts for several turns in a fight, I've ultimately resorted to minor sensory genjutsus which can help Tomi get out of a jam, IE, misdirect where his location is and yada yada. But like you said, people will often instant claim to get out of it or just 'don't look into the eyes' which the latter is a fair tactic against ocular types. If you noticed, even Sasuke when fighting Itachi before Tsukiyomi was active, often dealt with the crow dispersal genjutsu of Itachi's for evasion despite both of them having the Sharingan active. From what I've read, the main reason the sharingan can detect genjutsu so easily is because the fact it can see the several flaws projected by an illusion to notice there's something wrong with the picture, then check their own chakra network, yada yada. Weaker genjutsu which doesn't alter the scenery too much, thus has less flaws to detect is more likely to go undetected until after the fact by this logic.

Good point with the Sasuke and Itachi thing. Sasuke had his sharingan active and still had no idea that Itachi had cast a genjutsu on him.

I think you have it backward, though. A stronger genjutsu has less perceivable flaws.

Hmm, guess I did word that a little wrong. By 'weak' I meant genjutsu which doesn't alter scenery too much ie small scale. I was suggesting large scale genjutsus which alter more of the senses with various hallucinations are more likely to have more flaws which can be detected.

I see what you're saying now. I agree.
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Vail

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2017, 12:48:01 am »

The fact that people break out of genjutsu in an instant probably has something to do with the fact that a split second could determine a win/loss. So that means that people probably lost things because they got caught in a genjutsu and then claimed said genjutsu was auto-hitting because they couldn't get out of it fast enough so genjutsu was pretty much dropped. That's what I believe, at least.

I understand why someone would want to break out of genjutsu instantly. You're right. Those few seconds could decide the fight, but that's not the opponent's fault. It's not hard for your opponent to give you a viable option to escape their genjutsu even if you can't instantly negate it. I did just that in a fight against Nekomaru and Ray.

For those who make that argument, I say: It's not an autohit if you can't instantly break a genjutsu. It's common sense, and fair.
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Vail

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2017, 12:50:56 am »

I don't believe in instant dispersal of genjutsu, even for sharingan users, much for the same reason you state. Even for really weak ones, a second is a more reasonable timetable.

Quote
"Thankfully she had her doujtusu active! Once ___ís genjutsu was cast, ____ was able to see through it and break it nearly as quickly as it was developed."


Now in a biju fight, depending on how long it took to cast the genjutsu, that could reaaally go against the player breaking the genjutsu. Anything requiring handsigns would definitely have required more time to develop than near instant.

So do you think that we could come up with a system that describes how long genjutsu would last in terms of turns? Or would that not work?

And that's the same thing I was thinking, yeah. If it took me nearly a minute to activate this genjutsu, and you're saying that it took you a little longer than that to break it, then that's more than enough time to end the fight.
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Eric

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2017, 02:14:25 am »

I don't believe in instant dispersal of genjutsu, even for sharingan users, much for the same reason you state. Even for really weak ones, a second is a more reasonable timetable.

Quote
"Thankfully she had her doujtusu active! Once ___ís genjutsu was cast, ____ was able to see through it and break it nearly as quickly as it was developed."


Now in a biju fight, depending on how long it took to cast the genjutsu, that could reaaally go against the player breaking the genjutsu. Anything requiring handsigns would definitely have required more time to develop than near instant.

So do you think that we could come up with a system that describes how long genjutsu would last in terms of turns? Or would that not work?


That would make genjutsu have a super strong comeback because then it would be a guaranteed hit for X amount of turns. No, I would prefer genjutsu requiring an action of the target at the very least along with no insta-release, even for sharingan users, especially those who do not specialize in genjutsu (no, I don't see how you specialize in genjutsu without a single genjutsu technique in your arsenal).
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Vail

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2017, 02:18:35 am »

I don't believe in instant dispersal of genjutsu, even for sharingan users, much for the same reason you state. Even for really weak ones, a second is a more reasonable timetable.

Quote
"Thankfully she had her doujtusu active! Once ___ís genjutsu was cast, ____ was able to see through it and break it nearly as quickly as it was developed."


Now in a biju fight, depending on how long it took to cast the genjutsu, that could reaaally go against the player breaking the genjutsu. Anything requiring handsigns would definitely have required more time to develop than near instant.

So do you think that we could come up with a system that describes how long genjutsu would last in terms of turns? Or would that not work?


That would make genjutsu have a super strong comeback because then it would be a guaranteed hit for X amount of turns. No, I would prefer genjutsu requiring an action of the target at the very least along with no insta-release, even for sharingan users, especially those who do not specialize in genjutsu (no, I don't see how you specialize in genjutsu without a single genjutsu technique in your arsenal).

So should it be that, the target has the opportunity to initially prevent themselves from being placed under the genjutsu in the first place (by say, creating a smokescreen). However, if they are caught in it, there's a minimum turn requirement (say 1) that has to pass before they can get out of it. Sound okay?
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Uchiha Madara

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2017, 04:01:20 am »

Depending on the player, nearly instant escape of Genjutsu wouldn't be out of the question as I've seen a few who either exploit the weaknesses of Genjutsu to the extreme (like someone being in constant physical pain), found ways to make themselves immune, or developed counter-Genjutsu methods such as Ninjutsu that responds to certain conditions. Others have master level Doujutsu, are Karin like sensors, and/or have a Bijuu that help with fast recognition and escape.

Also, like what was pointed out before, "some time" can be the factor between winning or losing in a match. Lets say it takes a minimum of 2 seconds for a master Doujutsu user to escape a Genjutsu as a given, their fate is probably sealed unless they can escape it faster than the time it took for them to recognize and react just as swiftly. So I think each instance should be taken on a case by case basis rather than a flat out rule due to the many factors that might play into it.
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Keito Uzumaki

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2017, 05:19:31 pm »

Sound Genjutsu > everything.

Soon everyone's going to either claim to be deaf or just immune to sound techniques because of me and this post. >>; Seriously though, y'all slacking on them beats bruh. I know Kirk and the sound og's know whats good though. Sound waves will get to ya. But then again Shari/Rinne hacks and shit. Still worth a try though.
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Eric

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Re: Instant Negation of Genjutsu
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2017, 05:26:49 pm »

I don't believe in instant dispersal of genjutsu, even for sharingan users, much for the same reason you state. Even for really weak ones, a second is a more reasonable timetable.

Quote
"Thankfully she had her doujtusu active! Once ___ís genjutsu was cast, ____ was able to see through it and break it nearly as quickly as it was developed."


Now in a biju fight, depending on how long it took to cast the genjutsu, that could reaaally go against the player breaking the genjutsu. Anything requiring handsigns would definitely have required more time to develop than near instant.

So do you think that we could come up with a system that describes how long genjutsu would last in terms of turns? Or would that not work?


That would make genjutsu have a super strong comeback because then it would be a guaranteed hit for X amount of turns. No, I would prefer genjutsu requiring an action of the target at the very least along with no insta-release, even for sharingan users, especially those who do not specialize in genjutsu (no, I don't see how you specialize in genjutsu without a single genjutsu technique in your arsenal).

So should it be that, the target has the opportunity to initially prevent themselves from being placed under the genjutsu in the first place (by say, creating a smokescreen). However, if they are caught in it, there's a minimum turn requirement (say 1) that has to pass before they can get out of it. Sound okay?

I think it would be better, as Madara said, to avoid a turn limit on escape per say, and instead have an action limit reduction and some time (even if a turn lasts 3 seconds or a whole minute, we want this to be consistent), even if that time is half a second. Instant release is the issue I have. However, the whole point of using genjutsu that you know your opponent is going to sooner break is to take advantage of that small window of time to attack or escape. Would be defeating the purpose if there was no window of weakness.

Sound Genjutsu > everything.

Soon everyone's going to either claim to be deaf or just immune to sound techniques because of me and this post. >>; Seriously though, y'all slacking on them beats bruh. I know Kirk and the sound og's know whats good though. Sound waves will get to ya. But then again Shari/Rinne hacks and shit. Still worth a try though.

Except against wind release defenses of sufficient strength or vaccums. There are also some people who simply void sound release jutsu of certain types (IE, sound waves that shatter bones and stuff).
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