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Author Topic: Using juts without a heart  (Read 407 times)

Jestar

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Using juts without a heart
« on: May 30, 2017, 01:17:58 pm »

I will not pretend that this is not related to the bike battle for the 7 tails, because frankly it is. Can a ninja still use ordinary   techniques without a heart?

I ask because despite having no heart, Athos is claiming to be able to use a space-time barrier and claiming to be on the road to recovery, odd since even Kakuzu  was left quite vulnerable without any hearts.

Shinobis Chakra nature is tied to their heart as seen by the Earth grudge fear. Bijou cloak I see, but healing vital organs and regular jutsu?

Just for the record  my post was intended to be Jestar getting over the shock of his straits and begin working on a way to get back into the fight. But then I read over the post again  and since our judge hadn't gotten back to me on a different topic, no point asking just him this.
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2017, 03:12:54 pm »

"Since being spread by Hagoromo, better known as the Sage of Six Paths, chakra has become a form of life energy that all individuals produce to some degree; those who run out of chakra will die. Produced within the "chakra coils" that mainly surround and connect to each chakra-producing organ, the energy circulates throughout the body in a network called the "Chakra Pathway System", which is similar to the cardiovascular system."


From the wikia with highlighted parts. There's 8 organs that produce chakra. See: The 8 Gates.
However I do believe the heart produces at least 90% of all chakra. Emphasis has been shown in the show on how important the heart is. 8th gate is there, Sasori still needed his heart, Kakuzu needed one, and so on. Seems very important to have.

I'm in the section where, without a heart, immortal or not, you'll eventually run out of chakra. Dying isn't part of that as Hidan is truly immortal. Unless you want to cut him up and wait 100 years for his body to decay from lack of nutrition.

----

Good luck getting a consensus from this. :P
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Warren

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2017, 06:52:19 pm »

Better question might be how to grow a heart back quick enough not to suffer permanent brain and organ damage from lack of oxygen before that.
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Timothy

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 07:43:08 pm »

I'm with Shadow in the idea that the Heart being killed off would weaken one considerably in their ability to produce chakra. It alone wouldn't be grounds for no chakra, but techniques which say have so and so strength would be reduced in power considerably, or have a 'double' cost in proportion to over all chakra reserves.

It might be poor sport to role-play like no heart equals nothing's wrong but there are likely ways to get around it if you're creative and still keep things fair/interesting.
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 08:00:22 pm »

Better question might be how to grow a heart back quick enough not to suffer permanent brain and organ damage from lack of oxygen before that.

He's fighting a Hidan so those things don't apply.
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Camel

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2017, 08:29:30 pm »

Better question might be how to grow a heart back quick enough not to suffer permanent brain and organ damage from lack of oxygen before that.

He's fighting a Hidan so those things don't apply.

Hidan or not, lack of a heart means you don't have the necessary major organ to keep your muscles and tissue from dying. I mean sure, the brain can lie without oxygen for four minutes and since we are talking about a Hidan here. This handicap wouldn't necessarily apply, but you still need a heart to keep the oxygenated blood flowing to those muscles and tissues that are working in overdrive in this bijuu match.

Another thing about Earth Grudge Fear is once those masks(hearts) are destroyed, the user of the technique is limited to whatever chakras nature(heart) they have left. No hearts, including the one within your body, means no access to any chakra elemental nature that the user may have.  It's confusing the more I think about it, since most users that I've seen using Earth Grudge Fear tend to ignore all of this and go about using whatever chakra nature that was destroyed in that mask by claiming they had mastery of it prior to the Earth Grudge Fear.
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Timothy

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2017, 11:31:27 pm »

Dunno, Athos is continuing moving against Jay without a heart, regeneration, 7 gates, & claiming the missing organ to not even be a nuisance for the time being.

Due to the fact Hiden stabbed his own heart in the curse with Asuma Sarutobi with no complaints beyond it hurting like a bish, hard to specifically deny movement though I do think no heart as well as a few other organs would mean decreased chakra output and 7th Gate's overall potential
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Vail

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2017, 11:33:45 pm »

Better question might be how to grow a heart back quick enough not to suffer permanent brain and organ damage from lack of oxygen before that.

He's fighting a Hidan so those things don't apply.

Hidan or not, lack of a heart means you don't have the necessary major organ to keep your muscles and tissue from dying. I mean sure, the brain can lie without oxygen for four minutes and since we are talking about a Hidan here. This handicap wouldn't necessarily apply, but you still need a heart to keep the oxygenated blood flowing to those muscles and tissues that are working in overdrive in this bijuu match.

Another thing about Earth Grudge Fear is once those masks(hearts) are destroyed, the user of the technique is limited to whatever chakras nature(heart) they have left. No hearts, including the one within your body, means no access to any chakra elemental nature that the user may have.  It's confusing the more I think about it, since most users that I've seen using Earth Grudge Fear tend to ignore all of this and go about using whatever chakra nature that was destroyed in that mask by claiming they had mastery of it prior to the Earth Grudge Fear.

^
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Athos

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2017, 02:13:08 am »

Hidan was only a head and was marked still alive by, like, the start of the Shinobi war and stuff >> And he didn't die from his brain shutting down, or not breathing, or his heart not working. Because nothing was connected.

Even while still a head, he was alive until he died from starvation >>
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Timothy

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2017, 04:03:11 am »

I vote we cut of Athos head and see how long he lives but right before death, we reward him with lifetime supply of pizza and give him a loli's body.
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Vail

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2017, 02:33:55 pm »

Hidan was only a head and was marked still alive by, like, the start of the Shinobi war and stuff >> And he didn't die from his brain shutting down, or not breathing, or his heart not working. Because nothing was connected.

Even while still a head, he was alive until he died from starvation >>

The question wasn't whether he'd be alive or not, because that much is obvious. He couldn't control his body with a severed spinal cord. Even if he can't die, basic biology still applies.
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Jestar

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2017, 03:50:36 pm »

My question is if jutsu can still be used and if he can heal. And having a pierced heart is way different than having it removed altogether. 9-tails not entirely mastered, of the seal breaks then he no longer has that to use, and if he doesn't surrender after all that, to be able to come back and in some form finish him off should not be the chore.
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JayJay

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2017, 05:19:58 pm »

Hidan was only a head and was marked still alive by, like, the start of the Shinobi war and stuff >> And he didn't die from his brain shutting down, or not breathing, or his heart not working. Because nothing was connected.

Even while still a head, he was alive until he died from starvation >>

The question wasn't whether he'd be alive or not, because that much is obvious. He couldn't control his body with a severed spinal cord. Even if he can't die, basic biology still applies.

Can you repeat that, I don't think I heard it the first time.
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Vail

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2017, 10:07:25 pm »

My question is if jutsu can still be used and if he can heal. And having a pierced heart is way different than having it removed altogether. 9-tails not entirely mastered, of the seal breaks then he no longer has that to use, and if he doesn't surrender after all that, to be able to come back and in some form finish him off should not be the chore.

If he still has a nervous system, he will still be able to move around for a time. As to whether he'll still be able to perform jutsu - his ability to do so will be severely diminished because as Shadow noted, the heart holds a large portion of the person's chakra. Depending on how the fight has gone thus far (I haven't been following), Athos may or may not have already used a significant portion of his chakra. If he has, then he'll be even worse off.

In the second Naruto Fanbook, Kishimoto stated that one thing that could kill Hidan was malnutrition. Well, using a little SCIENCE! we can see that without a heart, Athos will eventually lose the fight. Why? Cellular respiration.

Without a heart pumping blood through Athos' body, there's no way to transport oxygen to different parts of his body. The blood is just going to pool in his extremities. No blood circulation means no diffusion of new oxygen molecules across cell membranes throughout his body. No new oxygen molecules means no production of ATP (the "energy" source that the body uses for everything). No ATP means no movement, no speaking, no production of chakra, nothing.

In the case of malnutrition and starvation: The two things you need to  produce ATP (technically there's more things you need, but they're intermediate products in the entire cellular respiration process that are produced from oxygen and glucose) are glucose (the carbohydrate we get from foods) and oxygen. No glucose, you still can't produce ATP.

This is a grossly simplified explanation, but it serves its purpose. SCIENCE, BITCH!
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Timothy

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Re: Using juts without a heart
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2017, 10:31:25 pm »

« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 10:33:48 pm by Timothy »
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