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Author Topic: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)  (Read 1121 times)

JayJay

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Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« on: July 22, 2017, 09:47:17 am »

Supposedly, my opponent and the judge are having discussions without informing me in any fashion about this. So, as the container, I'm putting a stop to the fight, until I can discuss my post to the judge. From this point forward, all talks between the judge will be done on this very thread.

Now, my opponent has a problem with action count:

Quote from: Rusaku
I've spoken with Warren, and he agrees that you've gone over the action limit within your most recent post against me. I argue that there are upwards of 6 actions within it.

1.) Releasing the seal to flow the natural energy into Jayís body
2.) Entering Sage mode
3.) Raiton Chakra Mode
4.) Lightning Blade
5.) Regeneration of an entire limb (a feat I might add, that has only been displayed by the Ten tails Jink; Madara Uchiha. Even Tsunade was unable to do something like that with a jutsu specifically designed to regenerate her cells.)
6.) I am curious if the clones attempts to alter trajectory and apply the seals once again would be considered an action. At first glance itís a movement, but you never mentioned the clones having the insight to attempt to foresee my puppets movementís and make those adjustments in the original action. So, those clones have intentionally deviated from the original plan to apply the previous seal to a newly positioned opponent. We can take that up with Warren if you wish to contest it, though.

I have been told to present you with an ultimatum. Either you use your one repost now, or all of the actions past the first three are null. Of course, you may present any counter arguments you have, but time is of the essence considering the time constraint in the rules. 7 days, even if a repost is required late in that week.

Understandable, this is what I just sent him:

Quote from: Jay
I've only done 3 actions. The first is using the seal to enter SM. Otherwise simply pulling the NE into oneself to enter SM would be two actions, which is retarded. If that was the case, I'd be better off not using the seal and just pulling it in normally.

LRCM is my second.

Lightning Blade is my last.

The Regen thing is simply supposition of when my arm would be regrowing, not the actual regrowth, since I ended my post at the peak of my jump. So, not an action. And I do have other ways of regrowing it, so natural or not isn't a big deal to me.

And the clones, have been created after everything was released/activated, so they have the same abilities activated. Considering this, your simple evasion wouldn't work in real time, as they would see this and react. I've mentioned they having those buffs/augmentations a lot, if you've overlooked it, it's not my fault.

To elaborate a bit more, I've used the Sage Seals in fights before. In none of the fights was it considered two actions to use them to enter Sage Mode, absolutely none of them. I didn't get a message from anybody saying, "Aye, that's technically two actions, dawg. Just letting you know." And considering that I only really RP with people who are considered veterans, you would think they would know/let me know about something like that. Nope, so, this claim is coming from far left field. I even have a section for Sage Seals on my profile which state:

Quote from: Jay Nara Wiki
Sage Seals are four diamonds meant to store 3-4 turns worth of Natural Energy, each. Used for quick transformations into Sage Mode, the Nara felt it'd be best to keep it on his body, instead of his armors. A way to tell when the seals are full, they'll be colored in a dull red, turning black when they're empty.

Nothing in there says anything about needing two turns to use them.

Now, skipping my actual actions, lets move to the topic of regeneration. Where in my post does my arm regrow? Where? I want you to point it out to me and tell me, "This is where it regrows." I'll bet you the Kyuubi you wont find it anywhere in there. I talk about it, but its not going to be happening, because I know how many actions I've used.

Now, the clones. The clones are, and I quote once again:
Quote from: Jay Nara
aimed to quickly cut off the path...
So, if the puppets were still moving, the clones would aim to cut off their path, their original purpose. Now, if the puppets had actually did something other than a simple jump to another branch, like anything else, then the clones would commit an action in order to react to this. From the last post to this one, they were still in pursuit mode, aiming to cut off their targets and eliminate them. Since they hadn't the chance to
Quote from: Jay Nara
appear directly in front of...
their targets, said targets shouldn't be able to continue running on their branches and then jump away to a different branch, since direct is absolutely no feet away from someone.

I'm not sure if you need me to recap on this, but I'll do it anyway.

Your first assumption of my action count should be: Releasing the seal to flow natural energy into Jay's body thus entering Chaos Sage Mode.

Your second is correct, as I did indeed enter Chaos Sage Mode, refer to #1.

Your third is correct, as I did indeed use the Raiton Chakra Mode.

Your fourth is correct, as I did indeed use the Lightning Blade

Your fifth is false, as I never stated the active regeneration of my arm. I stated a time in which it would, a certain time that hadn't happened in the span of my post.

Your six is false, as they were still acting off the actions of the previous post, using their vast range of buffs, being the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, Mind's Eye, no Gravity Seals, No Limiter Seal, much faster, stronger, extremely handy reflexes and more than capable of moving to a different branch to do what they needed to do because of their augmentations.

Now, if this is sufficient to you, the judge, and the community as a whole, we can get on with this fun little bout, with the timer being on you from this post if that makes you feel better.
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Rusaku

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2017, 06:42:47 pm »

I guess we can make this a public thing.

Quote
To elaborate a bit more, I've used the Sage Seals in fights before. In none of the fights was it considered two actions to use them to enter Sage Mode, absolutely none of them. I didn't get a message from anybody saying, "Aye, that's technically two actions, dawg. Just letting you know." And considering that I only really RP with people who are considered veterans, you would think they would know/let me know about something like that. Nope, so, this claim is coming from far left field. I even have a section for Sage Seals on my profile which state:

I would have to strongly disagree with the notion that your seal does not cost an action. You are activating a technique placed on your body to gain access to a brand new resource that will be used to enter sage mode. Your quote on the technique makes no mention of action counts whatsoever, so your argument of it not saying it takes two actions is a fallacy. In a literal Naruto setting, your seal would in fact be a much quicker method for entering sage mode, seeing as even Naruto was still hindered by the time it took for him to enter it before he bonded with Kurama. So yes, you're correct there. Here on SL though, we quantify our actions. Sure that seal would let you enter sage mode faster than the next guy in the context of time spent performing the action itself, but your not somehow circumventing the basic rules of zone fighting by doing it. You still intentionally utilized something on your body to perform a feat.

Quote
Now, skipping my actual actions, lets move to the topic of regeneration. Where in my post does my arm regrow? Where? I want you to point it out to me and tell me, "This is where it regrows." I'll bet you the Kyuubi you wont find it anywhere in there. I talk about it, but its not going to be happening, because I know how many actions I've used.

I'll concede that your wording does imply a future tense, but that just means you are already at an action deficit for the next round, because you've locked in the regeneration. Though I do find the concept of locking an action in to be controversial, but that conversation might be for another time.

What do you have to say about the fact your regeneration feat only has one comparable canon counterpart, and it's the freaking Ten Tails Senju Healing? You're literally going to regrow an entire limb by the time you hit the ground, which was something even Tsunade couldn't do with her legendary medical ninjutsu. How many times has Jay used this level of medical ninjutsu? Because there is a finite number of times that ones cells can even split. If you've been going around regenerating entire limbs, opposed to just wounds, it could be argued that your going to be in pretty serious risk of ruining your body by doing it. If you look at the Sakura Hiden, she undergoes a fight with someone who had regenerative powers. In order to defeat him, she would land a punch and heal him in the same instant. By the end of that fight, she had managed to overload his cells and he died because of it. Just one fight was enough to do this, and she was regenerating blunt force trauma from punches, not entire limbs. What's your excuse for Jay not being at the end of his rope from that kind of healing over time?   

Quote
So, if the puppets were still moving, the clones would aim to cut off their path, their original purpose. Now, if the puppets had actually did something other than a simple jump to another branch, like anything else, then the clones would commit an action in order to react to this. From the last post to this one, they were still in pursuit mode, aiming to cut off their targets and eliminate them. Since they hadn't the chance to

As for your clones, I not only question the speed that you think they are moving, but also the skill your implying they have. I showed you the gif of Madara using Jukai Kotan against the 4th division. I seriously doubt even someone as capable as Guy, in the 4th gate, would be able to navigate his way within the thick of those trees. He maybe would have jumped over, or around but to say he would be able to safely jump into it is illogical. Especially when you consider that Kamui's hand is being guided by Rusaku and his Byakugan to aim specifically for you, unlike my canon example which lacked focus in order to kill multiple opponents. Even if it were possible to navigate the trees that way, I made mention that they were simultaneously closing in around you and the clones, and there already isn't much room to begin with. Think a forest of boa constrictors coiling around Jay as he's trying to navigate the already harsh conditions. Also, I believe you are trying to retroactively apply that bit about cutting off my puppets. They moved because they were being cut off, and used the enclosing trees to their advantage to do it. Sure, your guys are kinda fast, but I already explained in my post that the forest would create a situation where my puppets could escape despite the gap in speed and I don't think you properly dealt with that situation enough to warrant still attempting your strike without it costing a new action.   

Though, under the idea that maybe the last few actions in your post are valid, I would like to address the speed in which you are doing these things.

Quote
The Nara had one more action, of the first two simultaneous actions, to reveal and Kirin was beginning to form above him, what with the chakra from Rusakuís wrist flick taking control of the natural lightning. This action would be the full activation of the Lightning Release Chakra Mode, the ebony lightning would join the flame-like energy flowing around him. He hadnít used this technique when he had staved off natural lightning during a spar with Ichirou 2-3 years ago. But, doing this wouldnít be the main purpose for its activation, but it wouldn't hurt to have it active. Now, his chakra would pulse once more to focus an immense amount of the Lightning Senjutsu towards his right hand. Deep red/black arcs of lightning joined the black arcs as the Lightning Cutter Technique was activated. It was obvious where things were heading as the devil directed his attention upwards as the Kirin dropped down upon him with intent to do harm.
 

From what I can gather, you're saying that in the time it takes for Kirin to form, you activate not only entered Sage Mode, Lighting release chakra mode, and utilized Raikiri, but still had time to jump 300 meters into the air and cut the dragon? I would like you to refer to the gif that I had found for Kirin. That is obviously the Valley of the End fight between Naruto and Sasuke. In that fight, Sasuke is able to employ Kirin at such a speed that not even a Sage of the 6 Paths Sage mode empowered Naruto was able to avoid it. Mind you, against Madara Uchiha, that very same Naruto was able to avoid an attack that moved at the speed of light. That's the second time in this post that you've implied that you have ability comparable to the Ten Tails, and I'm not sure how I feel about that extraordinary a claim.
 
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Warren

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2017, 08:04:47 pm »

Rusaku forwarded basically everything to you anyway, so I didn't see a need for confusing 3 way PM talks, but sure fine lets all rant on forum then.

Just because nobody ever complained about something you did before doesn't mean they didn't have a problem with it. Unless something important was in line, its far more common they will just stay quiet and try roll with it because they'd rather not get into an argument. I see this happen all the time, I've even had it happen to myself both ways too.

With that said, the 'sage seal' or whatever its proper name is. Quoting you, its a nature energy reserve, not a senjutsu reserve, so no matter how many of those things you released you would still have to mix it with your normal chakra to make senjutsu chakra out of it. It doesn't really matter how good/fast at the mixing you claim to be, you would still have to purposedly do it, much like how you released the seal on purpose, not some automated reaction. Senninka doesn't help you in this either, it only passively draws nature energy in, it doesn't turn it into senjutsu automatically.

Unfortunately chakra is not Ki from dragonball so it has to be purposedly made/utilized, so in short that's 2 actions. If not, then by that same logic one could easily quintuple their actions if not more, by just claiming they release a seal or something that has specifically been designed to do all those things on its own automatically, with the seal counting as 'just 1 action' for you.

Moving on.

Where does it say your arm regenerated? Right here;

"He neednít worry about it, as his healing factor would have it returned by the time he reached the ground."

Correct, it doesn't explicitly state "his arm finished growing back". It does however basically loophole the action count by saying it'd be done by the start of your next post, because since Jay would be falling during Rusaku's next post the arm would be growing back too =\ I'm not gonna question whether you have the techniques for full regeneration like that, cause frankly I don't know half of your list, but I am going to say that unless you spend Rusaku's entire next post without that arm and it starts growing back only at the start of your next one, that is another 1 action.

Moving on to clones.

There is no such thing as continuing an action from a previous post like that. If Rusakus puppets had stood still it'd be another story, but they didn't, so your clones would have to adjust their path to chase after and try cut them off, to try seal them again. That's another 1 action. Even if you argue no sealing attempt took place thus it would not take an action due to being just movement, you did also have them deliberately stop and deep-throat branches. Sooo that's 1 action regardless of which it is.

Last up, the ludicrous speed all of this was accomplished in.

While sure, your clones if they had all those buffs could probably keep up with the puppets, and real Jay himself might even make it up high enough to clash with the Kirin (even if not 300 meters could that much in a split second is just no), that doesn't excuse you from essentially auto-dodging the jukai koutan.

For one I feel you may be underestimating the speed mokuton can move at a bit, referring to instances such zetsu-clad Obito massacring the kiri ninja, or 10 tails bombarding the shinobi alliance. While sure, you could claim that you can outspeed the mokuton, what you basically did was just try to shut any and all attempts down by saying "they were all so fast that they didn't need to even try to dodge". That doesn't fly, cause where are you gonna go if wood is closing in from EVERY direction? To top it off you even claim the jutsu is so slow that it'd take ages for it to even react the second you came anywhere near, which is basically character control. Rusaku's in control of the jutsu, not you.

So to summarize, you went over the action limit, and committed an auto-dodge. If you don't want to repost, then Rusaku can basically counter the auto-dodge with matching force, and ignore everything after your 3rd action which in this case would be entering sage mode (1 clone deep-throat/seal attempt, 2 seal release, 3 sage mode).
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 12:13:04 am by Warren »
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Warren

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 09:44:36 pm »

And because according to Jay's own rules the 7 day timer doesn't stop in case a repost is required (which it is due to auto-dodge and exceeding action limit) and a judge can't be booted mid-judgement, that would mean that since its been 7 days and roughly 2-3 hours since Rusaku's last post by the time I'm posting this, and there has been no notification from Jay of him requiring a time extension or whatever due to RL reasons, Rusaku wins the fight due to Jay timing out.

You have a week to seal the beast starting from now, and all that usual jazz I don't really follow/remember.
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JayJay

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 09:55:25 pm »

Not at all, because we are still discussing this situation that we find ourselves in. So, this will be a placeholder until I can put something together when I get home from work.
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2017, 02:29:05 am »

Warren that is literally not how that rule works. The timer freezes when a post is in debate. After your decision is made Jay has about two days to post his repost.

Lord forbid Rusaku posted on the 1st and Jay posted on the 2nd then Rusaku waited 6 days and 23 hours to debate it and an hour later Jay loses since he had to repost.

-------------------------

I'll remove this once the fight starts again or if requested by the two competitors. Just don't like seeing wrong interpretations of a rule.


**Editing to state I'm not accusing Warren of purposely skewing his understanding of the rule to benefit one side.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 03:33:36 am by Ѕhadow »
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Rusaku

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 03:05:35 am »

Shadow, do not participate in my threads unless you're invited, and if you were confused on that detail, you were not.

As I have told Warren in PM's I am more than willing to hear Jay out. I expected more from this fight, so I'm willing to see it out.

If Jay can somehow convince Warren and I, more importantly Warren, that he had not gone over the limit, then I welcome it. I wasn't particularly moved before, so I await you're counterargument. 
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Warren

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 03:18:43 am »

Lord forbid next time you PM me first to ask what's up Shadow, before posting stuff like that in public and making me look like I'm trying to misuse rules on purpose or something -.-' especially if that's how to my understanding the rules like that had always worked to begin with, without anyone ever seeing fit to tell me otherwise.

As Rusaku said, Jay seems confident he can counter the arguments so I'll wait to see what he says.

Til then that's enough out of both of you, or anyone else reading this at that matter.
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JayJay

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 07:34:41 am »

I wasn't expecting more people to post, so I'll just make a new thing instead of editing the placeholder. Now, I have a lot of things to go over, so I'll try to type as fast as possible... and try not to use backspace too many times.

Let me start with the clones and their actions. Rusaku pointed out that he did see that there was a future tense with my wording and yet still had his marionettes running on their branches and jumping to another, when my clones were poised to appear directly in front of them. There's literally no room for them to continue their running on the branch the were on. Any further movement would have resulted in a crash. At least, that was my understanding of the event, as I was using the definition of directly where there is no intervening space between two objects. So, since this direct interaction hadn't happened in Rusaku's post, stating that he was dodging the specific action of the strikes as they were happening, I felt it was obligated for me to employ the auto-hit clause as he hadn't even attempted the evasion as the clones were still in their pursuit of the marionettes from the last post. Rusaku doesn't mention distance, the clones relative to the marionettes, so am I supposed to just say, "Okay, they didn't hit the marionettes because they were too far away, even though my last post stated directly and Rusaku's doesn't make note of it?"

On the subject of the wood release technique, I direct your attention towards my current buffs once again. With them active, Mind's Eye, EMS, etc, I felt it was more than possible for my character to navigate through the wood release. With the Mind's Eye, he would see the direction each and every branch would be moving and make sure that he wouldn't get caught by them. I'm not attempting to downplay the abilities of yours, Bocc's or Kamui's characters, like you seem to be trying to do for mine. With the fact that you didn't mention that it was a wall of wood, I felt that was you saying that, "I'm not godmodding and saying that you're just fucked. I'm implying that there is a way out of this, seemingly, unavoidable, undodgeable, autohit technique, if you have the capabilities." Now, if that's the case, then wouldn't this be considered a blatant autohit? Instead of calling bullshit, I went with it and managed to find my way to my targets before they ended up being caught by the vicious wood release. How could that be, being caught by the wood release, be considered an action on my part? Was that not Rusaku's intention, thus, shouldn't it be his action, since he's technically controlling every single tree that's being controlled? Absolutely not, because that's not how that works. Not to mention, Rusaku seemingly allowed my to get to his Marionettes, not in the fashion that I had stated, but get to their general location has already been allowed.

Onto the subject of the Sage Seal. I understand your arguments there and would proceed to make the necessary tweaks to the seal to have it be Senjutsu instead. So that and Chaos Sage Mode would be two actions, in conjunction with SL rules.

On the subject of the regeneration. Rusaku's talk about the cells and all that doesn't matter as, in the IC history of my character, I've yet to have my arm, or any other part of my body removed. That's only happened in OOC and thus, have absolutely no consequences. To Warren's claim of it being locked in, I feel that this is character control as I don't have intentions of simply falling to the floor, nor is it possible to even think that I would return to the ground at the beginning of my next action. There's supposition in my post about my next action, and that is using flight, something I couldn't do because of the action count. Even then, in the confines of that post, its not happening, so counting it as an action is simply dirty. Naturally, I have an outstanding healing factor, a gif on my page showing how fast it can be. Your mention of cells being damaged over time and causing my death isn't even on the table because of my immortality. Once again, when I know what I want my character to do next, I try to put these little hints, for myself, in the previous post. If you treat these little hints as fact and say that it happens in the post, then that's character control, which I feel I've said before. So, that's not an action in my post. So, you assuming that I'm touching the floor, immediately after jumping in the air is a fallacy, completely unsound. Now, I held back on the start of the regrowth, because I know that starting it would be an action. For regrowing it, I have a technique to do just that. I didn't need to leave myself a hint about how I would go about this, because I know exactly what I wanted to do next, regardless of how Rusaku reacted.

Now, the two of you talk about the ludicrous speed at which I managed this. First, I want to bring up Jay's Gravity Seals. On my wiki, Jay weighs 230 pounds. Each level of the Gravity Seals increases said weight by five times. Rusaku has already encountered these seals on Ray, who got them from Jay in exchange for the Explosion Release, via blood.... a very long time ago. I don't remember what number I left off of on Ray, but he's on the first version of the seal, which ends at level 10... which is fifty times Earth's gravity. Version two, mine, continues from there and Jay is on level five, with the new level one being times fifty and level five being times seventy. Now, 230 times 70 is 16,100 pounds. Obviously, Jay's physical training is a constant and he's steadily eased himself up to this point, since the very beginning of his creation six years prior. A ton weighs in at 2,000 pounds. With this being the US, I assume we're going with this measurement. So, simply shedding that weight gives Jay an 8.05 multiplier on his speed. So, right off the bat, I'm already pretty fast. Now, this isn't just his speed, but strength, durability, reflexes, etc, generally my base stats. Originally, I stopped, because I knew that going further would be something that would hinder me instead of helping, but once I obtained my immortality and the inability to die, I ventured forward and continued my training regime, hence the V2 GS.

Now, before I go forward about the speed I'm capable of moving, let me go onto Rusaku's claim of being able to enter Sage Mode, activate RYN and then Raikiri and still jump to cut Kirin. Sage Mode, doesn't seem to need a hand seal to activate it. No hand seals have been shown to activate this technique. Raikiri is really the only technique that has been shown to need hand seals to activate, and yet in Part 1 of Naruto, Kakashi has used it without hand seals showing that they're not necessarily needed. So, those techniques rely on adequate chakra flow, as does pretty much every technique. With this in mind, I direct you towards Myaku Seikei, or Pulse Shaping. Its a testament to my complete mastery of my chakra flow. Knowing this allows the chakra to flow much faster inside you and complete techniques at a faster rate than the norm. Now, with Mind's Eye and the fact that my base can already process at very high speeds, having the time to adjust myself to jump to cut the Kirin is completely feasible. ESPECIALLY if I had Chaos Sage Mode and RNY activated, which increase the speed even more, 4x for CSM and not sure how much SL quantifies the levels of RNY. But its still insanely fast, if only max RNY can only be topped by instant teleportation and Naruto in 9 Tails Chakra Mode. This isn't even counting the fact that I'm without the Limiter Seal, which is a whole nother addition to the equation. So that mixed together and my claim of only hitting 284, not 300, meters, is grievously holding back the capabilities of said jump. And I never stated that I would meet the Kirin at said 284, I simply stated that I would peak at 284. I imagine that I hit Kirin around 40-50 meters, possibly further up, possibly further down... more likely further down. I said something about Rusaku not really stating times or making note of distances earlier and the prime example of this is his own clone, the Kirin situation is my own blunder, but it doesn't really change the context of my post.

So from the end of his post, to the end of mine, which was a very quick post, you're saying its possible for him to travel nearly 4 whole kilometers in a few seconds, when I can't travel 300 meters in what you believe to be a split second? That's complete favoritism and unfair for a judge. Especially when you consider my heavily buffed state to his unbuffed state... not to mention that this was a clone, 33.3% of Rusaku? That's completely biased for you to, conveniently, overlook. Me, I accepted it, because I don't find it impossible for Rusaku to cover such a distance in such time. I know that he's a skilled individual and don't have qualms in his character's abilities, again, something none of you seem to reciprocate.

Madara is brought up a lot, canon Madara, because I'm pretty sure a lot of us has already beaten SL Madara... the one that seems to be the more official version. Hell, I beat him without all the buffs I've displayed here, without immortality or Strongest Shield. He even had Kyuubi and used the cloak against me, and I still managed to knock his head clean off. Of course, he wont admit this, but that's okay, I know it happened. I want to talk about Guy and how you're seemingly downplaying his own capabilities. I know that if Guy was in the situation, he would have the necessary capabilities to achieve the goal of getting to where he wanted to go, in possibly the same manner. After a while, I can see it being inevitable to escape, but in the span of the first few moments, I can see him being untouched. Of course, the survival rate relies on Guy's direction and Madara's desire for that kill. Now, back to me. I'm not sure how Madara would fair against the Otsutsukis since Kaguya's introduction meant his death and Toneri's capable of splitting the moon. Now considering that Rusaku is an Otsutsuki, does he consider himself stronger or weaker than Madara? I'm not sure how this relates to anything, but I'm simply curious if he considers Madara the peak of growth, with nobody on SL ever being able to become as powerful as him, or if he believes that Madara is a stepping stone and those willing enough should be able to find a way to surpass the legend.

Moving on, the speed of the Mokuton. I never controlled the Mokuton, I just know that I'm fast as well. I know damn well that Rusaku is in control of his technique and never made mention that they would take ages to move. From what I see, it's one friend doing all he can to have the other win as quickly as possible. I want to have a fight, not a debate.

Now, if I was to do this repost, knowing that I'm out of actions, incapable of activating Raikiri, I'm not going to jump directly into Kirin like before. I'll simply end up jumping at an angle or backwards to completely dodge it. Granted, I'm sure stray lightning and rocks would hit me, but they wouldn't be anything that would damage me. So, do you want an airborne Jay, who's missing an arm, or do you want a grounded Jay who's got both of his arms? Because, that's what's going to happen? Because, in real time, that wouldn't be grounds for a retropost, since I was reacting to both situations as they were presented to me.

Now, can Warren stop favoring his moon bestie and be unbiased as he's expected? I don't feel like developing a problem with the man or Rusaku because of this event. And you can't say that you haven't been, because I don't see any evidence that you've combed through Rusaku's claims and called him out. Matter of fact, it doesn't even matter, because Rusaku hadn't voided/nerfed me at all. He told me that I could play as I always have, paraphrasing as I don't know the exact words... matter of fact, these are the exact words, "voiding absolutely nothing on your character." So, now, in mid-fight, without the characters even getting face to face, you want to nerf me by complaining about the speed I'm moving, when you go beyond what I've ever done, points towards clone once again. I also want to make note that Itachi can react to the technique in enough time to use Susano'o while dying, because of sickness, using only the Mangekyo Sharingan, completely surprised by its creation, and still be more than capable of sealing Orochimaru with said Susano'o before eventually succumbing to his sickness. But I cant, when I'm completely healthy, not at all surprised, haves multiple abilities activated and again, completely healthy. Are you saying, Sick Itachi > Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto?

Recap? I'm not sure how the fight would go against Jay and the Canon Madara, but I'm sure that it would be an amazing fight. As would the fight between Rusaku and Madara. As would the fight between Bocc and Madara. The same for Tobias and Madara. Athos and Madara. Shadow and Madara. With you so grounded in believing that Madara is unsurpassable, is keeping you from growing your character beyond Madara. Unshackle those chains and get Madara's whatchamacallit out of your whozeewhatsit. In other words, get off his **** and be the shinobilegend you know you can be. Hopfully, I won't have to cut any of this out. I simply want you to earn this Kyuubi, because I'm not gonna just give up and let you take it.
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Warren

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 07:05:13 pm »

Movement alone isn't an action, and you already let Rusaku get away with it by making a post instead of contesting his anyway, so that's irrelevant.

Clones eating the wood. That's 1.

Seal and sage mode as you agreed even yourself is two actions. That's already your 3 used, so technically the rest is meaningless at this point, but I'll respond anyway because you insist to argue over them.

I full well understand you consider your character superior to Madara in every way, I did after all just read 7-9 paragraphs of it. However as I already stated in my ruling post, that's irrelevant because no matter how god-like/transcendent you may be, that does not allow you to auto-dodge, to basically ignore it due to claiming it couldn't do anything to you anyway. That's why I didn't even contest whether you would have such abilities or not, which you seem to have missed.

And oh, yeah, you definitely did not state controlling the mokuton at any point. Nope.

"Even if the individual branches could sense they were about to receive the grace of any of the Naras' feet, they would not be able to do anything in hope of throwing off any sort of balance. As, said foot, wouldn't be on said branch for even a fraction of a second, leagues beyond the amount of time the branches would need to tremble and shift, as the Naras bounded through the forest towards their individual targets. "

Raiton no yoroi. That's 4

Raikiri. That's 5.

I clearly stated I'm not questioning whether you have the regeneration or not to grown an arm back. The problem is your wording, with the clear implication the regeneration had already begun, which would have been trying to cram in a 6th action, if not try force it to occur during Rusaku's next post.

I even also stated that EVEN if you claim this is not at all that case and no regeneration of any kind would occur until the beginning of your next post, you would still be over the limit with 5 actions.

So my judgement remains. You're over the action limit, and you committed an auto-dodge. Either you repost, or Rusaku can void everything beyond the 3rd action of entering sage mode and counter the auto-dodge in the same fashion.

P.S. You may wish to check your math and stuff on those gravity seals. With your current math, if we give the anime benefit of doubt and assume you wouldn't horrifically die from that much gravity, you would still not get quite even the benefit of Lee's ankle weights at his genin level. 10 thousand pounds or so each, and he's got two of the things.

https://www.reddit.com/r/theydidthemath/comments/21yt9u/request_can_we_find_the_weight_of_one_of_rock/

If you wonder what the more accurate math for your seals would be, according to Tobias you'd weight roughly around 73 000 KG, or just a little bit underneath 161 000 pounds, basically end up just bloody paste on the ground. You can ask him for the more accurate details if you wish.
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Vail

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2017, 07:29:11 pm »

You know, I wasn't going to comment on this because I'm ultimately not involved, but reading this: "Now, can Warren stop favoring his moon bestie and be unbiased as he's expected? I don't feel like developing a problem with the man or Rusaku because of this event. And you can't say that you haven't been, because I don't see any evidence that you've combed through Rusaku's claims and called him out. "

Just set me off. How blatantly dishonest can you be? You have NO proof that Warren has shown favoritism to Rusaku. That's just your way of trying to hand wave Warren's conclusions. 5 separate people have viewed your arguments and all concluded that you're wrong in nearly every point that you made. None of us have a stake in this fight, so you can't sit and claim that we're biased against one side or the other. Don't resort to fallacious rhetorical strategies just because your arguments are bad. :/

Although there are multiple problems with your arguments, I want to touch on the gravity thing in particular:

"Now, the two of you talk about the ludicrous speed at which I managed this. First, I want to bring up Jay's Gravity Seals. On my wiki, Jay weighs 230 pounds. Each level of the Gravity Seals increases said weight by five times. Rusaku has already encountered these seals on Ray, who got them from Jay in exchange for the Explosion Release, via blood.... a very long time ago. I don't remember what number I left off of on Ray, but he's on the first version of the seal, which ends at level 10... which is fifty times Earth's gravity. Version two, mine, continues from there and Jay is on level five, with the new level one being times fifty and level five being times seventy. Now, 230 times 70 is 16,100 pounds. Obviously, Jay's physical training is a constant and he's steadily eased himself up to this point, since the very beginning of his creation six years prior. A ton weighs in at 2,000 pounds. With this being the US, I assume we're going with this measurement. So, simply shedding that weight gives Jay an 8.05 multiplier on his speed. "

That is not -- I repeat, that is NOT how gravity works. When you go to the moon, you don't suddenly move 20% faster because the moon's gravity is 83.3% of earth's. This isn't dragonball z. The concept is nice, but the only thing that training in such higher gravity would do is kill you. If your gravity seals raise your personal gravitational field to 70 times earth gravity, you're not increasing your WEIGHT. Weight is a concept that only exists due to gravity itself. Its dependent on a gravitational field and an objects mass. What you're actually doing is taking on mass, which is increasing your own gravitational field. Weight is the result of gravity. The gravitational field strength of the Earth is 10 N/kg (ten newtons per kilogram). This means an object with a mass of 1kg would be attracted towards the centre of the Earth by a force of 10 N. We feel forces like this as weight.

You can calculate the weight of an object using this equation:
weight (N) = mass (kg) ◊ gravitational field strength (N/kg). Now, since the gravity seal makes your personal gravitational field 70 times greater than the earth's, that means you have a gravitational field strength of 700 N / kg. I'm not even going to touch on how that would affect other objects around you, because that shouldn't need explaining.

You said your character weighs 230 pounds. Substituting that into the equation to find your weight, we get 73,028.2 kg, or 160,999.622 pounds. So yeah, you did your math wrong as well. TL;DR, you'd be dead. Your heart wouldn't even be able to pump blood through your body with such a strong gravitational field, among many other things that would ultimately lead to you not being able to actually fight.

This was all confirmed by an actual astrophysicist who studies gravity for a living, who I'm fairly confident knows more about how gravity works than both of us combined so. Yeah, you're wrong. And that's just two things out of many more things that you're wrong about.
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Eric

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2017, 10:07:32 pm »

Because the discussion has been so long, I went ahead and split the biju battle into the discussion part and the actual fight. That away after the discussion is over if the participants wish to keep the discussion for future reference and/or pick it back up where it left off, it's already in its own thread.
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Rusaku

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2017, 11:20:59 pm »

Because the discussion has been so long, I went ahead and split the biju battle into the discussion part and the actual fight. That away after the discussion is over if the participants wish to keep the discussion for future reference and/or pick it back up where it left off, it's already in its own thread.

Thank you Eric, I was actually going to ask someone to do this after seeing all of what people are saying.

I will be editing this message soon in order to add my own take on Jay's rebuttal.
 
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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2017, 01:05:40 am »

I find it peculiar how all these problems are only choosing to surface at this point, especially from Tobias. I've had numerous spars with you, mentioning gravity seals before, but you've never said anything about any problems you had. If they were as big a deal as you're making, wouldn't you, a scientist, come to me and say, "Dude, that's not how gravity works. Your seals should kill you." Because you never have. Now, you say Lee's ankle weights are 10,000 on each leg. How can he move around with 20,000 pounds? Can a normal human react to the speed of light? Can someone raise the dead, revive the dead, rip someone's soul right out of them? Can a human regenerate an arm? Can a normal person shoot fire, the same temperature as the surface of the sun out of their eyes? Can a normal person, through the laws of physics, do anything in the shinobi world? Its not simply, chakra bro. Its the fact that it's an anime. Completely fictional. And SL is a game, based off a piece of fiction. So, using real world science on something that's not real, doesn't seem fair to me. You say this isn't dragonball z, but its also not real life. So, yes, in this universe, I find it completely plausible that after getting myself used to raising my mass, with chakra and all that biz that this universe has, that I can still be pumping blood in my insides, especially since the seal's purpose is to be regulating all those negative affects. Sure, using real science is nifty, but don't forget that nothing could be done by the person behind either of those screens, in this exact moment of time. Also, if my mass is even greater, and with this being fictional, with the fact that I've steadily grew used to the new levels of gravity, then the benefit is even greater. But, obviously that wouldn't matter, since, at this moment of time, they're not even activated.

When I said the part about the Mokuton, I wasn't controlling their speed. I was aware of my speed. When I said the part about the Regeneration, I wasn't saying that it would start, I was simply mentioning it as something completely passive.

You continue talking about auto-dodge, but that's only continuing to imply that they're unavoidable. It wasn't mentioned that they were unavoidable in Rusaku's post, so, I did what I did to avoid them. How different is that from any zone fight? Like, I throw a punch at your face. Is that considered unavoidable? No, because in real time, the opponent can see the punch and do what he needs to do to avoid it. This depends on the skill between the two fighters. Can the target react fast enough to move out of the way? Can the puncher throw his attack fast enough to put the necessary pressure on to cause the hit? If yes for the attacker, the punch lands. If yes for the target, the punch misses. Same for this situation. Could I avoid the wood, yes. Did I do what was necessary to avoid the wood, yes. Did Rusaku increase the speed of the wood, not necessarily. He made them shake and shift, but that's not enough for a seasoned shinobi to lose their footing. I understand your point about the clones eating the wood.

Either way, with the clone's sacrifice being the first, the Sage Seal being the second and Chaos Sage Mode being the last action, I'll only be left with movement. Thus, I'll have my repost up after I get back from work.
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Vail

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2017, 01:23:15 am »

I find it peculiar how all these problems are only choosing to surface at this point, especially from Tobias. I've had numerous spars with you, mentioning gravity seals before, but you've never said anything about any problems you had. If they were as big a deal as you're making, wouldn't you, a scientist, come to me and say, "Dude, that's not how gravity works. Your seals should kill you." Because you never have. Now, you say Lee's ankle weights are 10,000 on each leg. How can he move around with 20,000 pounds? Can a normal human react to the speed of light? Can someone raise the dead, revive the dead, rip someone's soul right out of them? Can a human regenerate an arm? Can a normal person shoot fire, the same temperature as the surface of the sun out of their eyes? Can a normal person, through the laws of physics, do anything in the shinobi world? Its not simply, chakra bro. Its the fact that it's an anime. Completely fictional. And SL is a game, based off a piece of fiction. So, using real world science on something that's not real, doesn't seem fair to me. You say this isn't dragonball z, but its also not real life. So, yes, in this universe, I find it completely plausible that after getting myself used to raising my mass, with chakra and all that biz that this universe has, that I can still be pumping blood in my insides, especially since the seal's purpose is to be regulating all those negative affects. Sure, using real science is nifty, but don't forget that nothing could be done by the person behind either of those screens, in this exact moment of time. Also, if my mass is even greater, and with this being fictional, with the fact that I've steadily grew used to the new levels of gravity, then the benefit is even greater. But, obviously that wouldn't matter, since, at this moment of time, they're not even activated.

When I said the part about the Mokuton, I wasn't controlling their speed. I was aware of my speed. When I said the part about the Regeneration, I wasn't saying that it would start, I was simply mentioning it as something completely passive.

You continue talking about auto-dodge, but that's only continuing to imply that they're unavoidable. It wasn't mentioned that they were unavoidable in Rusaku's post, so, I did what I did to avoid them. How different is that from any zone fight? Like, I throw a punch at your face. Is that considered unavoidable? No, because in real time, the opponent can see the punch and do what he needs to do to avoid it. This depends on the skill between the two fighters. Can the target react fast enough to move out of the way? Can the puncher throw his attack fast enough to put the necessary pressure on to cause the hit? If yes for the attacker, the punch lands. If yes for the target, the punch misses. Same for this situation. Could I avoid the wood, yes. Did I do what was necessary to avoid the wood, yes. Did Rusaku increase the speed of the wood, not necessarily. He made them shake and shift, but that's not enough for a seasoned shinobi to lose their footing. I understand your point about the clones eating the wood.

Either way, with the clone's sacrifice being the first, the Sage Seal being the second and Chaos Sage Mode being the last action, I'll only be left with movement. Thus, I'll have my repost up after I get back from work.

Bruh this is the first time I've actually sat down and really considered the implication of what you claim your gravity seals to do. And please for the love of god, do not hit me with "don't use real life science in discussions about fiction". You don't get to pick and choose when you use science to justify your character having some new power up. Either you use it the RIGHT way all the time, or don't use it at all. Do I need to come down the list of your character's powers and point out all the times when you borrow from real science concepts for your powers? That's blatant hypocrisy. You fell back on that argument because you know it's nonsense.

Additionally, I never made the point about the ankle weights.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 01:29:03 am by Vail »
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