Shinobi Legends Forum

Roleplay => All That Is Bijuu => Bijuu Arena => Topic started by: JayJay on July 22, 2017, 09:47:17 am

Title: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: JayJay on July 22, 2017, 09:47:17 am
Supposedly, my opponent and the judge are having discussions without informing me in any fashion about this. So, as the container, I'm putting a stop to the fight, until I can discuss my post to the judge. From this point forward, all talks between the judge will be done on this very thread.

Now, my opponent has a problem with action count:

Quote from: Rusaku
I've spoken with Warren, and he agrees that you've gone over the action limit within your most recent post against me. I argue that there are upwards of 6 actions within it.

1.) Releasing the seal to flow the natural energy into Jayís body
2.) Entering Sage mode
3.) Raiton Chakra Mode
4.) Lightning Blade
5.) Regeneration of an entire limb (a feat I might add, that has only been displayed by the Ten tails Jink; Madara Uchiha. Even Tsunade was unable to do something like that with a jutsu specifically designed to regenerate her cells.)
6.) I am curious if the clones attempts to alter trajectory and apply the seals once again would be considered an action. At first glance itís a movement, but you never mentioned the clones having the insight to attempt to foresee my puppets movementís and make those adjustments in the original action. So, those clones have intentionally deviated from the original plan to apply the previous seal to a newly positioned opponent. We can take that up with Warren if you wish to contest it, though.

I have been told to present you with an ultimatum. Either you use your one repost now, or all of the actions past the first three are null. Of course, you may present any counter arguments you have, but time is of the essence considering the time constraint in the rules. 7 days, even if a repost is required late in that week.

Understandable, this is what I just sent him:

Quote from: Jay
I've only done 3 actions. The first is using the seal to enter SM. Otherwise simply pulling the NE into oneself to enter SM would be two actions, which is retarded. If that was the case, I'd be better off not using the seal and just pulling it in normally.

LRCM is my second.

Lightning Blade is my last.

The Regen thing is simply supposition of when my arm would be regrowing, not the actual regrowth, since I ended my post at the peak of my jump. So, not an action. And I do have other ways of regrowing it, so natural or not isn't a big deal to me.

And the clones, have been created after everything was released/activated, so they have the same abilities activated. Considering this, your simple evasion wouldn't work in real time, as they would see this and react. I've mentioned they having those buffs/augmentations a lot, if you've overlooked it, it's not my fault.

To elaborate a bit more, I've used the Sage Seals in fights before. In none of the fights was it considered two actions to use them to enter Sage Mode, absolutely none of them. I didn't get a message from anybody saying, "Aye, that's technically two actions, dawg. Just letting you know." And considering that I only really RP with people who are considered veterans, you would think they would know/let me know about something like that. Nope, so, this claim is coming from far left field. I even have a section for Sage Seals on my profile which state:

Quote from: Jay Nara Wiki
Sage Seals are four diamonds meant to store 3-4 turns worth of Natural Energy, each. Used for quick transformations into Sage Mode, the Nara felt it'd be best to keep it on his body, instead of his armors. A way to tell when the seals are full, they'll be colored in a dull red, turning black when they're empty.

Nothing in there says anything about needing two turns to use them.

Now, skipping my actual actions, lets move to the topic of regeneration. Where in my post does my arm regrow? Where? I want you to point it out to me and tell me, "This is where it regrows." I'll bet you the Kyuubi you wont find it anywhere in there. I talk about it, but its not going to be happening, because I know how many actions I've used.

Now, the clones. The clones are, and I quote once again:
Quote from: Jay Nara
aimed to quickly cut off the path...
So, if the puppets were still moving, the clones would aim to cut off their path, their original purpose. Now, if the puppets had actually did something other than a simple jump to another branch, like anything else, then the clones would commit an action in order to react to this. From the last post to this one, they were still in pursuit mode, aiming to cut off their targets and eliminate them. Since they hadn't the chance to
Quote from: Jay Nara
appear directly in front of...
their targets, said targets shouldn't be able to continue running on their branches and then jump away to a different branch, since direct is absolutely no feet away from someone.

I'm not sure if you need me to recap on this, but I'll do it anyway.

Your first assumption of my action count should be: Releasing the seal to flow natural energy into Jay's body thus entering Chaos Sage Mode.

Your second is correct, as I did indeed enter Chaos Sage Mode, refer to #1.

Your third is correct, as I did indeed use the Raiton Chakra Mode.

Your fourth is correct, as I did indeed use the Lightning Blade

Your fifth is false, as I never stated the active regeneration of my arm. I stated a time in which it would, a certain time that hadn't happened in the span of my post.

Your six is false, as they were still acting off the actions of the previous post, using their vast range of buffs, being the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, Mind's Eye, no Gravity Seals, No Limiter Seal, much faster, stronger, extremely handy reflexes and more than capable of moving to a different branch to do what they needed to do because of their augmentations.

Now, if this is sufficient to you, the judge, and the community as a whole, we can get on with this fun little bout, with the timer being on you from this post if that makes you feel better.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on July 22, 2017, 06:42:47 pm
I guess we can make this a public thing.

Quote
To elaborate a bit more, I've used the Sage Seals in fights before. In none of the fights was it considered two actions to use them to enter Sage Mode, absolutely none of them. I didn't get a message from anybody saying, "Aye, that's technically two actions, dawg. Just letting you know." And considering that I only really RP with people who are considered veterans, you would think they would know/let me know about something like that. Nope, so, this claim is coming from far left field. I even have a section for Sage Seals on my profile which state:

I would have to strongly disagree with the notion that your seal does not cost an action. You are activating a technique placed on your body to gain access to a brand new resource that will be used to enter sage mode. Your quote on the technique makes no mention of action counts whatsoever, so your argument of it not saying it takes two actions is a fallacy. In a literal Naruto setting, your seal would in fact be a much quicker method for entering sage mode, seeing as even Naruto was still hindered by the time it took for him to enter it before he bonded with Kurama. So yes, you're correct there. Here on SL though, we quantify our actions. Sure that seal would let you enter sage mode faster than the next guy in the context of time spent performing the action itself, but your not somehow circumventing the basic rules of zone fighting by doing it. You still intentionally utilized something on your body to perform a feat.

Quote
Now, skipping my actual actions, lets move to the topic of regeneration. Where in my post does my arm regrow? Where? I want you to point it out to me and tell me, "This is where it regrows." I'll bet you the Kyuubi you wont find it anywhere in there. I talk about it, but its not going to be happening, because I know how many actions I've used.

I'll concede that your wording does imply a future tense, but that just means you are already at an action deficit for the next round, because you've locked in the regeneration. Though I do find the concept of locking an action in to be controversial, but that conversation might be for another time.

What do you have to say about the fact your regeneration feat only has one comparable canon counterpart, and it's the freaking Ten Tails Senju Healing? You're literally going to regrow an entire limb by the time you hit the ground, which was something even Tsunade couldn't do with her legendary medical ninjutsu. How many times has Jay used this level of medical ninjutsu? Because there is a finite number of times that ones cells can even split. If you've been going around regenerating entire limbs, opposed to just wounds, it could be argued that your going to be in pretty serious risk of ruining your body by doing it. If you look at the Sakura Hiden, she undergoes a fight with someone who had regenerative powers. In order to defeat him, she would land a punch and heal him in the same instant. By the end of that fight, she had managed to overload his cells and he died because of it. Just one fight was enough to do this, and she was regenerating blunt force trauma from punches, not entire limbs. What's your excuse for Jay not being at the end of his rope from that kind of healing over time?   

Quote
So, if the puppets were still moving, the clones would aim to cut off their path, their original purpose. Now, if the puppets had actually did something other than a simple jump to another branch, like anything else, then the clones would commit an action in order to react to this. From the last post to this one, they were still in pursuit mode, aiming to cut off their targets and eliminate them. Since they hadn't the chance to

As for your clones, I not only question the speed that you think they are moving, but also the skill your implying they have. I showed you the gif of Madara using Jukai Kotan against the 4th division. I seriously doubt even someone as capable as Guy, in the 4th gate, would be able to navigate his way within the thick of those trees. He maybe would have jumped over, or around but to say he would be able to safely jump into it is illogical. Especially when you consider that Kamui's hand is being guided by Rusaku and his Byakugan to aim specifically for you, unlike my canon example which lacked focus in order to kill multiple opponents. Even if it were possible to navigate the trees that way, I made mention that they were simultaneously closing in around you and the clones, and there already isn't much room to begin with. Think a forest of boa constrictors coiling around Jay as he's trying to navigate the already harsh conditions. Also, I believe you are trying to retroactively apply that bit about cutting off my puppets. They moved because they were being cut off, and used the enclosing trees to their advantage to do it. Sure, your guys are kinda fast, but I already explained in my post that the forest would create a situation where my puppets could escape despite the gap in speed and I don't think you properly dealt with that situation enough to warrant still attempting your strike without it costing a new action.   

Though, under the idea that maybe the last few actions in your post are valid, I would like to address the speed in which you are doing these things.

Quote
The Nara had one more action, of the first two simultaneous actions, to reveal and Kirin was beginning to form above him, what with the chakra from Rusakuís wrist flick taking control of the natural lightning. This action would be the full activation of the Lightning Release Chakra Mode, the ebony lightning would join the flame-like energy flowing around him. He hadnít used this technique when he had staved off natural lightning during a spar with Ichirou 2-3 years ago. But, doing this wouldnít be the main purpose for its activation, but it wouldn't hurt to have it active. Now, his chakra would pulse once more to focus an immense amount of the Lightning Senjutsu towards his right hand. Deep red/black arcs of lightning joined the black arcs as the Lightning Cutter Technique was activated. It was obvious where things were heading as the devil directed his attention upwards as the Kirin dropped down upon him with intent to do harm.
 

From what I can gather, you're saying that in the time it takes for Kirin to form, you activate not only entered Sage Mode, Lighting release chakra mode, and utilized Raikiri, but still had time to jump 300 meters into the air and cut the dragon? I would like you to refer to the gif that I had found for Kirin. That is obviously the Valley of the End fight between Naruto and Sasuke. In that fight, Sasuke is able to employ Kirin at such a speed that not even a Sage of the 6 Paths Sage mode empowered Naruto was able to avoid it. Mind you, against Madara Uchiha, that very same Naruto was able to avoid an attack that moved at the speed of light. That's the second time in this post that you've implied that you have ability comparable to the Ten Tails, and I'm not sure how I feel about that extraordinary a claim.
 
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Warren on July 22, 2017, 08:04:47 pm
Rusaku forwarded basically everything to you anyway, so I didn't see a need for confusing 3 way PM talks, but sure fine lets all rant on forum then.

Just because nobody ever complained about something you did before doesn't mean they didn't have a problem with it. Unless something important was in line, its far more common they will just stay quiet and try roll with it because they'd rather not get into an argument. I see this happen all the time, I've even had it happen to myself both ways too.

With that said, the 'sage seal' or whatever its proper name is. Quoting you, its a nature energy reserve, not a senjutsu reserve, so no matter how many of those things you released you would still have to mix it with your normal chakra to make senjutsu chakra out of it. It doesn't really matter how good/fast at the mixing you claim to be, you would still have to purposedly do it, much like how you released the seal on purpose, not some automated reaction. Senninka doesn't help you in this either, it only passively draws nature energy in, it doesn't turn it into senjutsu automatically.

Unfortunately chakra is not Ki from dragonball so it has to be purposedly made/utilized, so in short that's 2 actions. If not, then by that same logic one could easily quintuple their actions if not more, by just claiming they release a seal or something that has specifically been designed to do all those things on its own automatically, with the seal counting as 'just 1 action' for you.

Moving on.

Where does it say your arm regenerated? Right here;

"He neednít worry about it, as his healing factor would have it returned by the time he reached the ground."

Correct, it doesn't explicitly state "his arm finished growing back". It does however basically loophole the action count by saying it'd be done by the start of your next post, because since Jay would be falling during Rusaku's next post the arm would be growing back too =\ I'm not gonna question whether you have the techniques for full regeneration like that, cause frankly I don't know half of your list, but I am going to say that unless you spend Rusaku's entire next post without that arm and it starts growing back only at the start of your next one, that is another 1 action.

Moving on to clones.

There is no such thing as continuing an action from a previous post like that. If Rusakus puppets had stood still it'd be another story, but they didn't, so your clones would have to adjust their path to chase after and try cut them off, to try seal them again. That's another 1 action. Even if you argue no sealing attempt took place thus it would not take an action due to being just movement, you did also have them deliberately stop and deep-throat branches. Sooo that's 1 action regardless of which it is.

Last up, the ludicrous speed all of this was accomplished in.

While sure, your clones if they had all those buffs could probably keep up with the puppets, and real Jay himself might even make it up high enough to clash with the Kirin (even if not 300 meters could that much in a split second is just no), that doesn't excuse you from essentially auto-dodging the jukai koutan.

For one I feel you may be underestimating the speed mokuton can move at a bit, referring to instances such zetsu-clad Obito massacring the kiri ninja, or 10 tails bombarding the shinobi alliance. While sure, you could claim that you can outspeed the mokuton, what you basically did was just try to shut any and all attempts down by saying "they were all so fast that they didn't need to even try to dodge". That doesn't fly, cause where are you gonna go if wood is closing in from EVERY direction? To top it off you even claim the jutsu is so slow that it'd take ages for it to even react the second you came anywhere near, which is basically character control. Rusaku's in control of the jutsu, not you.

So to summarize, you went over the action limit, and committed an auto-dodge. If you don't want to repost, then Rusaku can basically counter the auto-dodge with matching force, and ignore everything after your 3rd action which in this case would be entering sage mode (1 clone deep-throat/seal attempt, 2 seal release, 3 sage mode).
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Warren on July 23, 2017, 09:44:36 pm
And because according to Jay's own rules the 7 day timer doesn't stop in case a repost is required (which it is due to auto-dodge and exceeding action limit) and a judge can't be booted mid-judgement, that would mean that since its been 7 days and roughly 2-3 hours since Rusaku's last post by the time I'm posting this, and there has been no notification from Jay of him requiring a time extension or whatever due to RL reasons, Rusaku wins the fight due to Jay timing out.

You have a week to seal the beast starting from now, and all that usual jazz I don't really follow/remember.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: JayJay on July 23, 2017, 09:55:25 pm
Not at all, because we are still discussing this situation that we find ourselves in. So, this will be a placeholder until I can put something together when I get home from work.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Ѕhadow on July 24, 2017, 02:29:05 am
Warren that is literally not how that rule works. The timer freezes when a post is in debate. After your decision is made Jay has about two days to post his repost.

Lord forbid Rusaku posted on the 1st and Jay posted on the 2nd then Rusaku waited 6 days and 23 hours to debate it and an hour later Jay loses since he had to repost.

-------------------------

I'll remove this once the fight starts again or if requested by the two competitors. Just don't like seeing wrong interpretations of a rule.


**Editing to state I'm not accusing Warren of purposely skewing his understanding of the rule to benefit one side.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on July 24, 2017, 03:05:35 am
Shadow, do not participate in my threads unless you're invited, and if you were confused on that detail, you were not.

As I have told Warren in PM's I am more than willing to hear Jay out. I expected more from this fight, so I'm willing to see it out.

If Jay can somehow convince Warren and I, more importantly Warren, that he had not gone over the limit, then I welcome it. I wasn't particularly moved before, so I await you're counterargument. 
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Warren on July 24, 2017, 03:18:43 am
Lord forbid next time you PM me first to ask what's up Shadow, before posting stuff like that in public and making me look like I'm trying to misuse rules on purpose or something -.-' especially if that's how to my understanding the rules like that had always worked to begin with, without anyone ever seeing fit to tell me otherwise.

As Rusaku said, Jay seems confident he can counter the arguments so I'll wait to see what he says.

Til then that's enough out of both of you, or anyone else reading this at that matter.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: JayJay on July 24, 2017, 07:34:41 am
I wasn't expecting more people to post, so I'll just make a new thing instead of editing the placeholder. Now, I have a lot of things to go over, so I'll try to type as fast as possible... and try not to use backspace too many times.

Let me start with the clones and their actions. Rusaku pointed out that he did see that there was a future tense with my wording and yet still had his marionettes running on their branches and jumping to another, when my clones were poised to appear directly in front of them. There's literally no room for them to continue their running on the branch the were on. Any further movement would have resulted in a crash. At least, that was my understanding of the event, as I was using the definition of directly where there is no intervening space between two objects. So, since this direct interaction hadn't happened in Rusaku's post, stating that he was dodging the specific action of the strikes as they were happening, I felt it was obligated for me to employ the auto-hit clause as he hadn't even attempted the evasion as the clones were still in their pursuit of the marionettes from the last post. Rusaku doesn't mention distance, the clones relative to the marionettes, so am I supposed to just say, "Okay, they didn't hit the marionettes because they were too far away, even though my last post stated directly and Rusaku's doesn't make note of it?"

On the subject of the wood release technique, I direct your attention towards my current buffs once again. With them active, Mind's Eye, EMS, etc, I felt it was more than possible for my character to navigate through the wood release. With the Mind's Eye, he would see the direction each and every branch would be moving and make sure that he wouldn't get caught by them. I'm not attempting to downplay the abilities of yours, Bocc's or Kamui's characters, like you seem to be trying to do for mine. With the fact that you didn't mention that it was a wall of wood, I felt that was you saying that, "I'm not godmodding and saying that you're just fucked. I'm implying that there is a way out of this, seemingly, unavoidable, undodgeable, autohit technique, if you have the capabilities." Now, if that's the case, then wouldn't this be considered a blatant autohit? Instead of calling bullshit, I went with it and managed to find my way to my targets before they ended up being caught by the vicious wood release. How could that be, being caught by the wood release, be considered an action on my part? Was that not Rusaku's intention, thus, shouldn't it be his action, since he's technically controlling every single tree that's being controlled? Absolutely not, because that's not how that works. Not to mention, Rusaku seemingly allowed my to get to his Marionettes, not in the fashion that I had stated, but get to their general location has already been allowed.

Onto the subject of the Sage Seal. I understand your arguments there and would proceed to make the necessary tweaks to the seal to have it be Senjutsu instead. So that and Chaos Sage Mode would be two actions, in conjunction with SL rules.

On the subject of the regeneration. Rusaku's talk about the cells and all that doesn't matter as, in the IC history of my character, I've yet to have my arm, or any other part of my body removed. That's only happened in OOC and thus, have absolutely no consequences. To Warren's claim of it being locked in, I feel that this is character control as I don't have intentions of simply falling to the floor, nor is it possible to even think that I would return to the ground at the beginning of my next action. There's supposition in my post about my next action, and that is using flight, something I couldn't do because of the action count. Even then, in the confines of that post, its not happening, so counting it as an action is simply dirty. Naturally, I have an outstanding healing factor, a gif on my page showing how fast it can be. Your mention of cells being damaged over time and causing my death isn't even on the table because of my immortality. Once again, when I know what I want my character to do next, I try to put these little hints, for myself, in the previous post. If you treat these little hints as fact and say that it happens in the post, then that's character control, which I feel I've said before. So, that's not an action in my post. So, you assuming that I'm touching the floor, immediately after jumping in the air is a fallacy, completely unsound. Now, I held back on the start of the regrowth, because I know that starting it would be an action. For regrowing it, I have a technique to do just that. I didn't need to leave myself a hint about how I would go about this, because I know exactly what I wanted to do next, regardless of how Rusaku reacted.

Now, the two of you talk about the ludicrous speed at which I managed this. First, I want to bring up Jay's Gravity Seals. On my wiki, Jay weighs 230 pounds. Each level of the Gravity Seals increases said weight by five times. Rusaku has already encountered these seals on Ray, who got them from Jay in exchange for the Explosion Release, via blood.... a very long time ago. I don't remember what number I left off of on Ray, but he's on the first version of the seal, which ends at level 10... which is fifty times Earth's gravity. Version two, mine, continues from there and Jay is on level five, with the new level one being times fifty and level five being times seventy. Now, 230 times 70 is 16,100 pounds. Obviously, Jay's physical training is a constant and he's steadily eased himself up to this point, since the very beginning of his creation six years prior. A ton weighs in at 2,000 pounds. With this being the US, I assume we're going with this measurement. So, simply shedding that weight gives Jay an 8.05 multiplier on his speed. So, right off the bat, I'm already pretty fast. Now, this isn't just his speed, but strength, durability, reflexes, etc, generally my base stats. Originally, I stopped, because I knew that going further would be something that would hinder me instead of helping, but once I obtained my immortality and the inability to die, I ventured forward and continued my training regime, hence the V2 GS.

Now, before I go forward about the speed I'm capable of moving, let me go onto Rusaku's claim of being able to enter Sage Mode, activate RYN and then Raikiri and still jump to cut Kirin. Sage Mode, doesn't seem to need a hand seal to activate it. No hand seals have been shown to activate this technique. Raikiri is really the only technique that has been shown to need hand seals to activate, and yet in Part 1 of Naruto, Kakashi has used it without hand seals showing that they're not necessarily needed. So, those techniques rely on adequate chakra flow, as does pretty much every technique. With this in mind, I direct you towards Myaku Seikei, or Pulse Shaping. Its a testament to my complete mastery of my chakra flow. Knowing this allows the chakra to flow much faster inside you and complete techniques at a faster rate than the norm. Now, with Mind's Eye and the fact that my base can already process at very high speeds, having the time to adjust myself to jump to cut the Kirin is completely feasible. ESPECIALLY if I had Chaos Sage Mode and RNY activated, which increase the speed even more, 4x for CSM and not sure how much SL quantifies the levels of RNY. But its still insanely fast, if only max RNY can only be topped by instant teleportation and Naruto in 9 Tails Chakra Mode. This isn't even counting the fact that I'm without the Limiter Seal, which is a whole nother addition to the equation. So that mixed together and my claim of only hitting 284, not 300, meters, is grievously holding back the capabilities of said jump. And I never stated that I would meet the Kirin at said 284, I simply stated that I would peak at 284. I imagine that I hit Kirin around 40-50 meters, possibly further up, possibly further down... more likely further down. I said something about Rusaku not really stating times or making note of distances earlier and the prime example of this is his own clone, the Kirin situation is my own blunder, but it doesn't really change the context of my post.

So from the end of his post, to the end of mine, which was a very quick post, you're saying its possible for him to travel nearly 4 whole kilometers in a few seconds, when I can't travel 300 meters in what you believe to be a split second? That's complete favoritism and unfair for a judge. Especially when you consider my heavily buffed state to his unbuffed state... not to mention that this was a clone, 33.3% of Rusaku? That's completely biased for you to, conveniently, overlook. Me, I accepted it, because I don't find it impossible for Rusaku to cover such a distance in such time. I know that he's a skilled individual and don't have qualms in his character's abilities, again, something none of you seem to reciprocate.

Madara is brought up a lot, canon Madara, because I'm pretty sure a lot of us has already beaten SL Madara... the one that seems to be the more official version. Hell, I beat him without all the buffs I've displayed here, without immortality or Strongest Shield. He even had Kyuubi and used the cloak against me, and I still managed to knock his head clean off. Of course, he wont admit this, but that's okay, I know it happened. I want to talk about Guy and how you're seemingly downplaying his own capabilities. I know that if Guy was in the situation, he would have the necessary capabilities to achieve the goal of getting to where he wanted to go, in possibly the same manner. After a while, I can see it being inevitable to escape, but in the span of the first few moments, I can see him being untouched. Of course, the survival rate relies on Guy's direction and Madara's desire for that kill. Now, back to me. I'm not sure how Madara would fair against the Otsutsukis since Kaguya's introduction meant his death and Toneri's capable of splitting the moon. Now considering that Rusaku is an Otsutsuki, does he consider himself stronger or weaker than Madara? I'm not sure how this relates to anything, but I'm simply curious if he considers Madara the peak of growth, with nobody on SL ever being able to become as powerful as him, or if he believes that Madara is a stepping stone and those willing enough should be able to find a way to surpass the legend.

Moving on, the speed of the Mokuton. I never controlled the Mokuton, I just know that I'm fast as well. I know damn well that Rusaku is in control of his technique and never made mention that they would take ages to move. From what I see, it's one friend doing all he can to have the other win as quickly as possible. I want to have a fight, not a debate.

Now, if I was to do this repost, knowing that I'm out of actions, incapable of activating Raikiri, I'm not going to jump directly into Kirin like before. I'll simply end up jumping at an angle or backwards to completely dodge it. Granted, I'm sure stray lightning and rocks would hit me, but they wouldn't be anything that would damage me. So, do you want an airborne Jay, who's missing an arm, or do you want a grounded Jay who's got both of his arms? Because, that's what's going to happen? Because, in real time, that wouldn't be grounds for a retropost, since I was reacting to both situations as they were presented to me.

Now, can Warren stop favoring his moon bestie and be unbiased as he's expected? I don't feel like developing a problem with the man or Rusaku because of this event. And you can't say that you haven't been, because I don't see any evidence that you've combed through Rusaku's claims and called him out. Matter of fact, it doesn't even matter, because Rusaku hadn't voided/nerfed me at all. He told me that I could play as I always have, paraphrasing as I don't know the exact words... matter of fact, these are the exact words, "voiding absolutely nothing on your character." So, now, in mid-fight, without the characters even getting face to face, you want to nerf me by complaining about the speed I'm moving, when you go beyond what I've ever done, points towards clone once again. I also want to make note that Itachi can react to the technique in enough time to use Susano'o while dying, because of sickness, using only the Mangekyo Sharingan, completely surprised by its creation, and still be more than capable of sealing Orochimaru with said Susano'o before eventually succumbing to his sickness. But I cant, when I'm completely healthy, not at all surprised, haves multiple abilities activated and again, completely healthy. Are you saying, Sick Itachi > Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto?

Recap? I'm not sure how the fight would go against Jay and the Canon Madara, but I'm sure that it would be an amazing fight. As would the fight between Rusaku and Madara. As would the fight between Bocc and Madara. The same for Tobias and Madara. Athos and Madara. Shadow and Madara. With you so grounded in believing that Madara is unsurpassable, is keeping you from growing your character beyond Madara. Unshackle those chains and get Madara's whatchamacallit out of your whozeewhatsit. In other words, get off his **** and be the shinobilegend you know you can be. Hopfully, I won't have to cut any of this out. I simply want you to earn this Kyuubi, because I'm not gonna just give up and let you take it.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Warren on July 24, 2017, 07:05:13 pm
Movement alone isn't an action, and you already let Rusaku get away with it by making a post instead of contesting his anyway, so that's irrelevant.

Clones eating the wood. That's 1.

Seal and sage mode as you agreed even yourself is two actions. That's already your 3 used, so technically the rest is meaningless at this point, but I'll respond anyway because you insist to argue over them.

I full well understand you consider your character superior to Madara in every way, I did after all just read 7-9 paragraphs of it. However as I already stated in my ruling post, that's irrelevant because no matter how god-like/transcendent you may be, that does not allow you to auto-dodge, to basically ignore it due to claiming it couldn't do anything to you anyway. That's why I didn't even contest whether you would have such abilities or not, which you seem to have missed.

And oh, yeah, you definitely did not state controlling the mokuton at any point. Nope.

"Even if the individual branches could sense they were about to receive the grace of any of the Naras' feet, they would not be able to do anything in hope of throwing off any sort of balance. As, said foot, wouldn't be on said branch for even a fraction of a second, leagues beyond the amount of time the branches would need to tremble and shift, as the Naras bounded through the forest towards their individual targets. "

Raiton no yoroi. That's 4

Raikiri. That's 5.

I clearly stated I'm not questioning whether you have the regeneration or not to grown an arm back. The problem is your wording, with the clear implication the regeneration had already begun, which would have been trying to cram in a 6th action, if not try force it to occur during Rusaku's next post.

I even also stated that EVEN if you claim this is not at all that case and no regeneration of any kind would occur until the beginning of your next post, you would still be over the limit with 5 actions.

So my judgement remains. You're over the action limit, and you committed an auto-dodge. Either you repost, or Rusaku can void everything beyond the 3rd action of entering sage mode and counter the auto-dodge in the same fashion.

P.S. You may wish to check your math and stuff on those gravity seals. With your current math, if we give the anime benefit of doubt and assume you wouldn't horrifically die from that much gravity, you would still not get quite even the benefit of Lee's ankle weights at his genin level. 10 thousand pounds or so each, and he's got two of the things.

https://www.reddit.com/r/theydidthemath/comments/21yt9u/request_can_we_find_the_weight_of_one_of_rock/

If you wonder what the more accurate math for your seals would be, according to Tobias you'd weight roughly around 73 000 KG, or just a little bit underneath 161 000 pounds, basically end up just bloody paste on the ground. You can ask him for the more accurate details if you wish.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Vail on July 24, 2017, 07:29:11 pm
You know, I wasn't going to comment on this because I'm ultimately not involved, but reading this: "Now, can Warren stop favoring his moon bestie and be unbiased as he's expected? I don't feel like developing a problem with the man or Rusaku because of this event. And you can't say that you haven't been, because I don't see any evidence that you've combed through Rusaku's claims and called him out. "

Just set me off. How blatantly dishonest can you be? You have NO proof that Warren has shown favoritism to Rusaku. That's just your way of trying to hand wave  (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Handwave) Warren's conclusions. 5 separate people have viewed your arguments and all concluded that you're wrong in nearly every point that you made. None of us have a stake in this fight, so you can't sit and claim that we're biased against one side or the other. Don't resort to fallacious rhetorical strategies just because your arguments are bad. :/

Although there are multiple problems with your arguments, I want to touch on the gravity thing in particular:

"Now, the two of you talk about the ludicrous speed at which I managed this. First, I want to bring up Jay's Gravity Seals. On my wiki, Jay weighs 230 pounds. Each level of the Gravity Seals increases said weight by five times. Rusaku has already encountered these seals on Ray, who got them from Jay in exchange for the Explosion Release, via blood.... a very long time ago. I don't remember what number I left off of on Ray, but he's on the first version of the seal, which ends at level 10... which is fifty times Earth's gravity. Version two, mine, continues from there and Jay is on level five, with the new level one being times fifty and level five being times seventy. Now, 230 times 70 is 16,100 pounds. Obviously, Jay's physical training is a constant and he's steadily eased himself up to this point, since the very beginning of his creation six years prior. A ton weighs in at 2,000 pounds. With this being the US, I assume we're going with this measurement. So, simply shedding that weight gives Jay an 8.05 multiplier on his speed. "

That is not -- I repeat, that is NOT how gravity works. When you go to the moon, you don't suddenly move 20% faster because the moon's gravity is 83.3% of earth's. This isn't dragonball z. The concept is nice, but the only thing that training in such higher gravity would do is kill you. If your gravity seals raise your personal gravitational field to 70 times earth gravity, you're not increasing your WEIGHT. Weight is a concept that only exists due to gravity itself. Its dependent on a gravitational field and an objects mass. What you're actually doing is taking on mass, which is increasing your own gravitational field. Weight is the result of gravity. The gravitational field strength of the Earth is 10 N/kg (ten newtons per kilogram). This means an object with a mass of 1kg would be attracted towards the centre of the Earth by a force of 10 N. We feel forces like this as weight.

You can calculate the weight of an object using this equation:
weight (N) = mass (kg) ◊ gravitational field strength (N/kg). Now, since the gravity seal makes your personal gravitational field 70 times greater than the earth's, that means you have a gravitational field strength of 700 N / kg. I'm not even going to touch on how that would affect other objects around you, because that shouldn't need explaining.

You said your character weighs 230 pounds. Substituting that into the equation to find your weight, we get 73,028.2 kg, or 160,999.622 pounds. So yeah, you did your math wrong as well. TL;DR, you'd be dead. Your heart wouldn't even be able to pump blood through your body with such a strong gravitational field, among many other things that would ultimately lead to you not being able to actually fight.

This was all confirmed by an actual astrophysicist who studies gravity for a living, who I'm fairly confident knows more about how gravity works than both of us combined so. Yeah, you're wrong. And that's just two things out of many more things that you're wrong about.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Eric on July 24, 2017, 10:07:32 pm
Because the discussion has been so long, I went ahead and split the biju battle into the discussion part and the actual fight. That away after the discussion is over if the participants wish to keep the discussion for future reference and/or pick it back up where it left off, it's already in its own thread.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on July 24, 2017, 11:20:59 pm
Because the discussion has been so long, I went ahead and split the biju battle into the discussion part and the actual fight. That away after the discussion is over if the participants wish to keep the discussion for future reference and/or pick it back up where it left off, it's already in its own thread.

Thank you Eric, I was actually going to ask someone to do this after seeing all of what people are saying.

I will be editing this message soon in order to add my own take on Jay's rebuttal.
 
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: JayJay on July 25, 2017, 01:05:40 am
I find it peculiar how all these problems are only choosing to surface at this point, especially from Tobias. I've had numerous spars with you, mentioning gravity seals before, but you've never said anything about any problems you had. If they were as big a deal as you're making, wouldn't you, a scientist, come to me and say, "Dude, that's not how gravity works. Your seals should kill you." Because you never have. Now, you say Lee's ankle weights are 10,000 on each leg. How can he move around with 20,000 pounds? Can a normal human react to the speed of light? Can someone raise the dead, revive the dead, rip someone's soul right out of them? Can a human regenerate an arm? Can a normal person shoot fire, the same temperature as the surface of the sun out of their eyes? Can a normal person, through the laws of physics, do anything in the shinobi world? Its not simply, chakra bro. Its the fact that it's an anime. Completely fictional. And SL is a game, based off a piece of fiction. So, using real world science on something that's not real, doesn't seem fair to me. You say this isn't dragonball z, but its also not real life. So, yes, in this universe, I find it completely plausible that after getting myself used to raising my mass, with chakra and all that biz that this universe has, that I can still be pumping blood in my insides, especially since the seal's purpose is to be regulating all those negative affects. Sure, using real science is nifty, but don't forget that nothing could be done by the person behind either of those screens, in this exact moment of time. Also, if my mass is even greater, and with this being fictional, with the fact that I've steadily grew used to the new levels of gravity, then the benefit is even greater. But, obviously that wouldn't matter, since, at this moment of time, they're not even activated.

When I said the part about the Mokuton, I wasn't controlling their speed. I was aware of my speed. When I said the part about the Regeneration, I wasn't saying that it would start, I was simply mentioning it as something completely passive.

You continue talking about auto-dodge, but that's only continuing to imply that they're unavoidable. It wasn't mentioned that they were unavoidable in Rusaku's post, so, I did what I did to avoid them. How different is that from any zone fight? Like, I throw a punch at your face. Is that considered unavoidable? No, because in real time, the opponent can see the punch and do what he needs to do to avoid it. This depends on the skill between the two fighters. Can the target react fast enough to move out of the way? Can the puncher throw his attack fast enough to put the necessary pressure on to cause the hit? If yes for the attacker, the punch lands. If yes for the target, the punch misses. Same for this situation. Could I avoid the wood, yes. Did I do what was necessary to avoid the wood, yes. Did Rusaku increase the speed of the wood, not necessarily. He made them shake and shift, but that's not enough for a seasoned shinobi to lose their footing. I understand your point about the clones eating the wood.

Either way, with the clone's sacrifice being the first, the Sage Seal being the second and Chaos Sage Mode being the last action, I'll only be left with movement. Thus, I'll have my repost up after I get back from work.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Vail on July 25, 2017, 01:23:15 am
I find it peculiar how all these problems are only choosing to surface at this point, especially from Tobias. I've had numerous spars with you, mentioning gravity seals before, but you've never said anything about any problems you had. If they were as big a deal as you're making, wouldn't you, a scientist, come to me and say, "Dude, that's not how gravity works. Your seals should kill you." Because you never have. Now, you say Lee's ankle weights are 10,000 on each leg. How can he move around with 20,000 pounds? Can a normal human react to the speed of light? Can someone raise the dead, revive the dead, rip someone's soul right out of them? Can a human regenerate an arm? Can a normal person shoot fire, the same temperature as the surface of the sun out of their eyes? Can a normal person, through the laws of physics, do anything in the shinobi world? Its not simply, chakra bro. Its the fact that it's an anime. Completely fictional. And SL is a game, based off a piece of fiction. So, using real world science on something that's not real, doesn't seem fair to me. You say this isn't dragonball z, but its also not real life. So, yes, in this universe, I find it completely plausible that after getting myself used to raising my mass, with chakra and all that biz that this universe has, that I can still be pumping blood in my insides, especially since the seal's purpose is to be regulating all those negative affects. Sure, using real science is nifty, but don't forget that nothing could be done by the person behind either of those screens, in this exact moment of time. Also, if my mass is even greater, and with this being fictional, with the fact that I've steadily grew used to the new levels of gravity, then the benefit is even greater. But, obviously that wouldn't matter, since, at this moment of time, they're not even activated.

When I said the part about the Mokuton, I wasn't controlling their speed. I was aware of my speed. When I said the part about the Regeneration, I wasn't saying that it would start, I was simply mentioning it as something completely passive.

You continue talking about auto-dodge, but that's only continuing to imply that they're unavoidable. It wasn't mentioned that they were unavoidable in Rusaku's post, so, I did what I did to avoid them. How different is that from any zone fight? Like, I throw a punch at your face. Is that considered unavoidable? No, because in real time, the opponent can see the punch and do what he needs to do to avoid it. This depends on the skill between the two fighters. Can the target react fast enough to move out of the way? Can the puncher throw his attack fast enough to put the necessary pressure on to cause the hit? If yes for the attacker, the punch lands. If yes for the target, the punch misses. Same for this situation. Could I avoid the wood, yes. Did I do what was necessary to avoid the wood, yes. Did Rusaku increase the speed of the wood, not necessarily. He made them shake and shift, but that's not enough for a seasoned shinobi to lose their footing. I understand your point about the clones eating the wood.

Either way, with the clone's sacrifice being the first, the Sage Seal being the second and Chaos Sage Mode being the last action, I'll only be left with movement. Thus, I'll have my repost up after I get back from work.

Bruh this is the first time I've actually sat down and really considered the implication of what you claim your gravity seals to do. And please for the love of god, do not hit me with "don't use real life science in discussions about fiction". You don't get to pick and choose when you use science to justify your character having some new power up. Either you use it the RIGHT way all the time, or don't use it at all. Do I need to come down the list of your character's powers and point out all the times when you borrow from real science concepts for your powers? That's blatant hypocrisy. You fell back on that argument because you know it's nonsense.

Additionally, I never made the point about the ankle weights.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on July 25, 2017, 02:24:38 am
I'm going ahead and making a new post instead of editing the last one. People posted after me, so it might not show up as new or something.

I want to preface this response with a bit of friendly advice for Jay, from a self proclaimed veteran, about the etiquette of forum zone fighting. First would be to never make unsubstantiated claims as serious as the one you did on Warren. Itís a form of character assassination that I donít bode well with, and obviously doesn't with others, as seen with Tobias.
Second is that taking an argument public is the last contingency someone should use, and only if you have solid arguments to verify your claims, otherwise itís just going to be embarrassing if the topic does not go your way.

I am going to try and address each point as Jay brought them up, and will do my best to illustrate my points so they are easily digestible.

Just as Jay began with the mokuton clones, so will I. You misunderstood what I was referencing with the ďFuture tenseĒ comment previously. I was referring to your regenerative ability being stated to happen over time, not the actions of your clones. You then go on to describe what ĎDirectlyí means. If you want to go with the literal definition of directly, then there would have been zero distance between the clone and my puppet, meaning they might as well have been touching bellies. If that were the case, you wouldnít have been able to deliver that strike to begin with, as you say it happened. Though that is not the case, as I you can see here: 

Quote
While the Manji leader was correct in his assumption that the Marionettes were not at the same skill as their real life counterparts physically, having the very ground in which they stand act in their favor while simultaneously hindering the opponent would lessen that gap in ability enough for them both to properly evade the masterful, but simplistic forward strikes that were intended to hit each one. To do this, both would simply leap from whatever tree they were currently running on onto an adjacent branch while the forest continued itís effect from the previous round of trying to mutilate the trio.
       

I mention that the puppet move to jump away from the trees they were currently running on. ĎWereí being the key word. I did not say that they continued running until the bunshin appeared, instead saying that they lept away while the forest attempted to hinder the clones, allowing them to avoid the strike. I could also probably go into how your using the Uzumaki sealing technique incorrectly, but I think Iíll save that for later depending on how this goes.

In regards to the forest itself, you imply that Iíve somehow started to god mod and Auto hit you, when thatís just not true. If you were to headbutt the Kusanagi as I swung it at you, would your head not be cut off? If I lept into a fireball would I not be burned? For you to suggest that this forest is somehow undodgeable is ludicrous. You could have opted to instead destroy the trees, or jump above them, or move deep underground. Instead, you chose to jump into them with the idea in your head that you were just fast enough to evade it and that was your mistake. Just because someone is punishing you for making a huge error does not suddenly make the move god mod.

Now we move onto the regeneration. I donít feel like I need to delve into this too much, considering Warren has already made his ruling, and I did agree to your terms, but I have some things I want to address. First is the idea that youíre somehow immune to cellular deterioration because of immortality. I want to snuff that out right now, because there is no logic behind that. If your immortality is anything like Hidanís, there is nothing to suggest such immunity. Best case scenario, you become a disembodied brain in a jar because your body couldn't create cells anymore, but your consciousness just refuses to fade away. If your custom immortality somehow also covers how the cells react once they have reached the Ďestablishedí limit that one's cells can split, then nevermind.

The gravity seals have already been picked apart by Warren and Tobias. Itís incorrect science that only worked in an anime that is entirely separate from Naruto aside from the company that published them. My only real point to make is that the Math you presented, which was debunked by Tobias, would only make your weights about 5000 pounds heavier than Leeís individual weights in part one.

Though I would like to address your implication that removing your gravity seals makes you 8 times faster than before. For one, this is why I have joined the ďNo quantificationĒ team for supplementary techniques. Please refer to this manga pannel:

(https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11122/111226747/5219121-2719214349-narut.jpg)
Here is states that curse mark level 2 makes you 10x stronger, and Sasukeís Curse seal of Heaven is exponentially stronger than Jiroboís as stated in the canon. Then, if you look at the page for the first gate, it says it increases your physical parameters by 5. Yet, here on SL, we say Sage mode is only a 3x buff and somehow Kurama chakra mode is a 6x buff. So is Jiroboís curse mark level 2 somehow stronger than Kurama chakra mode? There are so many holes in trying to add multipliers to our characters that it just makes more sense to get rid of them, and make some kind of chart that illustrates where each supplement stands compared to the others. 

Letís move onto Jayís response about his numerous speed buffs.

Quote
Sage Mode, doesn't seem to need a hand seal to activate it. No hand seals have been shown to activate this technique   

Well I just donít think thatís true. Every example I can find of a person entering sage mode, unless being aided by Kurama or Sennika, have needed to at the very least bring their hands together. If you can provide one example of someone entering sage mode without the aforementioned aids, then Iíll concede to that fact.

You then go on to mention your pulse shaping technique, which allows you to activate techniques practically as fast as you can flow your chakra. That, as far as Iím concerned, does not remove the fact that you have to activate each individually seeing as I canít think of a single example of any person being able to cast that number of high level jutsu simultaneously. The fact remains that youíre still performing 3 different techniques in a timeframe that is numerous times faster than the blink of an eye.

I will go ahead and compound your bit about Itachi and SO6P Naruto as well. Itachiís sickness can almost entirely be disregarded here I feel like. I believe the entire point of Kirin was to illustrate the speed and power that Susanoo can possess. In fact, Iím pretty sure the Wikia page references the speed of Itachiís Susanoo as a highly regarded feat. Itís application is nearly instantaneous. I want to also point out that Itachi was able to watch Sasuke jump into the air, raise his hand, form the dragon, watch as the dragon chilled in the air for a bit while zetsu talked, then activated Susanoo as it was coming down. Meanwhile when fighting Naruto, Sasuke did not parade the technique around and immediately activated it, not giving Naruto any time to react. It was a simple twitch of the hand, and BOOM the dragon was hitting Naruto. Just to take a look at the difference in how the same technique was applied in those two battles. Itís dramatically, and thematically different.

Warren already made his piece about the Mokuton. All I want to add is that it's literally all around you, so simply jumping to either side probably isn't going to help. Though we will see how you decide to handle it, and if further discussion needs to happens from there. I will say though, I would much rather have the repost. It just means you don't get the opportunity to make anymore mistakes, especially if you are just going to passively regenerate any damage done in an instant. You're down a resource I'm not. 

The accusations of favoritism was already addressed by Tobias and by my initial statement. Itís in horrible taste, and has no proof to justify it. Youíre claiming bias because Warren is reviewing the post that I brought to him. You posted accepting my actions as valid, so for you try and backstep is a waste of breath.

The speed my clone was moving was because of Attack Prevention Technique, or Hiding in Surface depending on who you talk too. It mentions allowing you to move around at high speeds, and undetectable.

Finally, I would like to address your mention of Madara. We were using him as an example, because he was literally a god mod character within the story of Naruto. Kishimoto admitted that he didnít know how he was going to legitimately kill Madara within his own story. I bring him up because he is the only example of a character that has shown capabilities even close to what youíre claiming. Though if we want to talk about dick riding, and mind you this is where I am going to get a little bit less cordial, is you referencing Athos 18 times (an obvious exaggeration). He is by far one of the worst people you could possibly try using as a measuring stick for your physical feats. Not only is his character not even recognized by some people on SL, but nearly everything he claims can in some way argued to be god mod. I for one, am one of those people who refute his asinine claims of destroying mountains with a single punch, or having a fighting style that blatantly says he is better than everyone else, or any other random technique heís made. I wonít delve into how Gary stue of a character he is, but instead will leave you with this: I, Alek Clark, under the persona of Rusaku Otsutsuki, do not acknowledge Athos as a valid character. So for you to use him as the measuring stick, means literally nothing and will do more harm than good from this point forward.


There will be things I missed. There might be things I didn't address properly. Though at the end of the day it really does not matter. Warren made his ruling, and Jay made a comment about making the repost, so there really ins't anything else to argue. Once he makes his repost, I will decide if anymore discussion needs to take place.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on August 08, 2017, 01:33:51 am
Continuing publically.

For the sake of transparency, provided below will be context and quotes from messages sent to Jay and Warren regarding issues I found with Jayís most recent response. Minor errors that I want to be addressed before continuing. This is what I sent to those two, it being the same message for both.

Quote
I have a number of issues about your most recent post and would like to address them before moving any further. The most easily addressed is the misconception about the flight technique. They are not in any way separate techniques. Slís page for the ďFlight TechniqueĒ Directly references Onoki and his ability to fly because of it. If you reference the page for Lightweight Rock Technique, you will find this quote: ďThe atmosphere, along with their body, can be lightened in order to take flight and increasing their maneuverability.Ē The page SL uses is outdated, made during a time in which we didnít have the name of the technique he was using. So you are still bound by the rules of that move, contrary to what you said in your post.

Next, I donít agree with the concept that with an incomplete understanding of Dust Release, one should be able to produce something thatís objectively better than the base technique. Dust Releaseís entire shtick is that it requires specific geometric shape transformation to use, and that takes a while to produce, because itís difficult. So to circumvent the weaknesses of it entirely by creating Jinton Nagashi on the fly really grinds my gears.

There is no canon example that I can find which showcases a characterís ability to produce a lethal effect on par with a regular elemental technique, let alone a KT, by ejecting unrefined chakra. The closest thing I could reference was the One Body Blow technique through the gentle fist, because when it was first introduced there was no name given to us and it was assumed to be raw chakra flow. Even then, it was actually a calculated technique all along. So for you to shoot unrefined chakra at me which contains the natures in question, makes me think all thatís going to happen is the Chakra Induction Papers in my pocket are gonna start acting funny. You're not actually making anything if the chakra is raw and unrefined. It's just chakra at that point.

I also kinda want to address some stuff that has less to do with your techniques themselves. I know we like to assume a thing or two here in these fights when it comes to observing details so we can maintain the upper hand, but I am starting to feel like youíre metagaming right now. It seems to me like Jay knows an awful lot about Rusaku having only met this one time. You know I have Mokuton and Kaguya, yet jay has not seen either of them. You just knew that I was setting up Kirin, yet itís one of the least used lighting moves in my opinion. You acted like you knew what my Tenseigan was, despite me having never really used it in a public way. Iím starting to notice a trend, I want it to get toned way back. If I have been doing this to you up until this point, let me know. Because itís really fucking annoying, and I wouldn't want to be doing it to you.


In response, Jay sent me this:

Quote
I'm gonna answer things out of order.

From the moment I did the Ice Pulse technique in the battle royale, I knew I would love to do the same for Dust/Decay. Through that, and my series of Gaibu/External Techniques, I knew those would be the first instances in which they would be used. I'm used to 360 degree usage of techniques and worked on the pure chakra control to make it a possibility, knowing that I would need it for the things I imagine. This isn't something that was 'on the fly'. To you, it may seem so, but nope, I've held that in since the beginning, mentioning I would need to rely on the "Raw forms of the elements." In essence, it is the ice pulse technique, simply with Dust Release chakra. I'm sure the addition of the buffs would make up for the lack of refinement/time. There doesn't need to be a canon counterpart for Dust Release outside of 3D objects, as its been used outside of it, in its Raw State. Plus... since it was 360, all around me, that's a sphere... which is 3 dimensional...

For the Flight Technique part, when the name of the technique was revealed, that page should have been merged or dropped. Since those words and complete concepts hadn't been mentioned in that specific page, I don't feel as if I need to be bound by it. Even then, it doesn't matter, as I said "it didn't matter." That quote doesn't even mention anything about being incapable of doing anything that I have shown doing.

For the other stuff. Just like you claim to have a file on me, I have a file on you. For those like us, leaders of spy organizations, this doesn't seem all that farfetched. The only difference is I put yours together when I had a bit of Ray's blood. He was your student before he was Athos' so I don't believe its farfetched to have a limited knowledge of your existence. Other than that, you're a known individual. If you can claim to have my file when I don't do anything, then I don't believe its, again, farfetched for a more notable individual to be on everyone's database. You claimed knowledge of my ability of Shadow Manipulation through name. I claim to know about the Tenseigan through your name. Curious about whether you have it and concluded that you do. Names can be a foreshadow to possible abilities.

When I make mention of Mokuton and Kaguya, I do it in an OOC manner, talking to myself about what could be next. You do the same, mention ways to work around things. I'm not working in the dark, you are because you didn't read that file. Kirin is a technique that's always a possibility when there's a thunderstorm. Hell, I could do it right now. I could've prevented you from doing it. Up to the point you actually sent your chakra into the air, I acted like I didn't know it would be Kirin, but I was more than aware of the possibility. Metagaming is a thin line when playing word games. Its why I write out my suspicions and other thoughts, but it only seems to backfire and place me at fault.

Back onto the issue of the Flight Technique, I just remembered the progenitor of the reason why I know the technique. I got my version from my original gift from my false God, having managed to reverse engineered it for use outside of needing the God. I simplify it as the Flight Technique, because that's what it is. I found the page's lack of details and basic picture a good fit for it, thus opted not to edit it. It simply mentions that it's a technique which allows Onoki to fly and that he can transfer it over to others. There isn't even a related technique tag, so, loophole on that end. If not, doesn't matter as a lack of gravity, only makes it so that the energy that propelled me forward doesn't even need to work all that hard to, again, propel me forward.

Circumventing weaknesses is what we do. Hell, you did that before we even started the fight. I've already explained what this.. Jinton Nagashi, as you've called it, is, so Senjutsu/Devil buffed, should be enough to gap the difference. Even then, I don't see the sphere even entering my body. Close enough, the Senjutsu/Devil buff would cause it to erode and collapse, prematur


What I sent to him was written while I was at work and had 10 minutes to analyze his response and craft my own. I donít believe I properly articulated my thoughts and ideas or addressed Jayís own rebuttals in that short amount of time, but I will still provide the response for reference.

Quote
If you have a citation which proves to me the existence of the dust release application shown here outside of this fight, then I'll concede that it was not made on the fly. Otherwise I stand by the notion that you cant just fart out a dust release wind and have it act like the actual techniques. Calling the chakra raw and unrefined is contradictory to what jutsu are, which is the exact opposite of those two things.

You directly call the technique you're using the Flight Technqiue. If you follow the technique listed on your page which is also called the flight technique, it takes you to the page which was created before the light weight boulder technique was officially labeled. That page even goes on to directly reference Onoki and his ability to fly meaning it's just the light weight rock technique. With that being the case, certain abilities you are trying to stack don't work, so it actually matters quite a bit.

What I'm reading right now is you trying to justify meta gaming. I made the offhand comment about having a file on you for filler content, because I also mention that I've gained no information despite having it. Rusaku is well known, but his abilities are not. You can't just use Ray as a proxy for having any information on me, because I bet if I message him right now he'll tell me exactly how much information he gave you and Athos about me Ic. I also don't recall saying I knew you had shadow techniques, instead saying I knew what to look for if they were used. I've never shown Tensigan is public where the information could get out, so what Otsutsuki have you met that also have the Tenseigan? And finally, how many people have you seen use Kirin? I know of at least 10 different reason to cause Natural rain, so to jump immediately to Kirin is pretty suspicious.

I'm obviously not going to stop the fight over Metagaming, but if the trend continues, I might Have to put your teeth to the curb. 


Now that everyoneís caught up, I will reiterate some of the ideas I was attempting to convey to Jay.

First is the Dust Release. I made mention that to say the chakra being raw and unrefined is contradictory to what Jutsu even are on a fundamental level. He says that itís based around his ice pulse technique, but makes no mention of it in his actual response. He makes mention of a pulse, but he also describes his chakra activating like a ďpulseĒ, so itís just semantics. I also say the notion that his technique is working in a spherical geometric shape is a stretch. I would still like to see some kind of reference to your ability to do this at all with Dust Release, because if you lack the knowledge to perform even the most basic of Jinton techniques, how can you produce something that is objectively more powerful with considerably less drawbacks? Itís an instant dust release AOE that requires no prep time and has undefined range.

At the end of the day, my stance is that heís just shooting chakra with specific natures assigned to it. That would probably just make the chakra induction papers in my pocket to ignite. Jay is obviously encouraged to respond, assuming Warren isnít going to jump in and add his input, now that things have been organized.

I want to address the flight technique, though I donít feel it needs much attention. I will reiterate that if you look at Jayís page and find flight technique, it leads to this page:

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Flight_Technique

That page directly references Onoki as being the reason he can fly and transfer it to others. I have to assume that this is the technique that Jay is using, because he continuously calls it the flight technique, and he links that specific page.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Earth_Release:_Light-Weight_Rock_Technique

If you now turn your attention to the above link, you will find that this is the expanded upon version of the move Jay is using. This is also taking credit for Onokiís flight. It uses the same picture, and has direct quotes taken from the page Jay has listed as his flight technique. Logic tells me that Jay is using the Light Weight Rock Technique.

Finally, for the metagaming. I stand by pretty much all of what I said before. I mentioned that there was a file, so I could build our pseudo-plot, but then entirely disregarded it because it had not been read yet, so I couldnít cheat. I gained no intel on your character because of that throw away file comment. You canít just claim to have substantial information on a person when youíve never investigated them, leader of an organization or not. Then you go on to use Ray as a proxy, and I would love to ask him exactly how much information heís been giving you on me. I also donít recall ever claiming to know you had shadow manipulation techniques due to your surname. I know I mentioned having the information on what to look for if those techniques got used, because I used to use them myself. Is that what you are refering too? I just donít think that merritts you knowing I have the Tenseigan because my name is Otsutsuki. That was a clan entirely unheard of in the Naruto-verse, until Hagoromo actually showed up and started giving the rundown. So does everyone just know that the Otsutsuki is around? Is that base knowledge that everyone has? Iíve been trying to keep my clanís secrets hidden all this time, so I gotta know if thatís even necessary. Statistically, the Otsutsuki have been depicted with Rinnegan far more often than Tenseigan. Wouldnít it have been more likely to assume Rinnegan?

Also, you saying that the comments about my KG are OOC, then isnít that almost textbook metagaming? Itís like youíre using OOC information to propel your character forward. Thatís perhaps something I would like Warren to make mention of when he replies
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Vail on August 08, 2017, 09:24:37 am
I agree with everything Rusaku has said here, but more specifically:

Jinton Nagashi? No. Just no. Perhaps you're confusing the name of the KT itself (Dust / Particle Release) with what it actually does. It seems pretty clear that the name is a poetic way of describing what it turns you into when you get hit by it. The techniques have been specifically described as creating three dimensional geometric shapes to contain the EXPLOSION produced by the orb floating in the center.

"The sphere then seems to explode with a tremendous amount of force, while the exterior walls of the structure effectively restrict the size of the blast radius, resulting in the destruction of everything and anyone caught within as they are pulverised into minute particles of dust." - http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Dust_Release:_Detachment_of_the_Primitive_World_Technique

It doesn't create some special Dust Release chakra that magically disintegrates you into dust because of some inherent quality of the chakra itself. It produces an explosion so powerful that it disintegrates you, presumably with concussive force. This is further supported by the borders of the 3 dimensional structure expanding outward due to the blast wave produced by the explosion itself.

So manipulating "raw dust chakra" isn't going to just disintegrate anything it touches. That's nonsensical and completely unsupported by the textual evidence.




Also, we've already had words about you using the Manji Organization to retroactively claim having information on villages and people when you haven't even done the writing work to establish agents in those areas or taken the time to write them actually *discovering* that information in the first place. Stop metagaming. >_>

There are like two mainstream SL RPers who have Tenseigan right now. Rusaku, and Miyuu. Neither of which have shown their Tenseigan to anyone from Uzushio as far as I know. There was the fight / rp that Rusa and I were doing, but we scrapped that.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on August 09, 2017, 02:46:58 am
I would still prefer if the judge and two combatants were the only ones participating in this thread. I don't know if it's any different now considering it's a separate thread than the fight, but I don't want the community jumping in an muddying the conversation. It could lead the a mod attacking one person or another and that's never fun. 

About the potential metagaming, I want to make it known that I don't want there to be any particular ruling about this. I would just like for there to be maybe a warning, so it won't keep happening.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Vail on August 09, 2017, 04:22:45 am
Alright my bad. I figured this was open for public discussion at this point.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Eric on August 09, 2017, 05:08:41 pm
I would still prefer if the judge and two combatants were the only ones participating in this thread. I don't know if it's any different now considering it's a separate thread than the fight, but I don't want the community jumping in an muddying the conversation. It could lead the a mod attacking one person or another and that's never fun. 

About the potential metagaming, I want to make it known that I don't want there to be any particular ruling about this. I would just like for there to be maybe a warning, so it won't keep happening.

It is up to the combatants, but the thread was separated for the benefit of the main talkers to not have to dig through commentary to find the post and to keep a record of what was already talked about and hashed through.

Alright my bad. I figured this was open for public discussion at this point.

It's preferable to keep it to the combatants and the judge. Getting jumped by a mod without any of the main participants taking issue with it first is unlikely, especially since this is not the main battle thread.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: JayJay on August 09, 2017, 10:49:57 pm
I'm going to make my reply short, or as short as possible.

For the topic of Dust Release. I would like to say that the Kekkei Tota has one single Technique of demonstration. That single technique has variations in which it can be used. The Detachment of the Primitive World Technique (as you point out) is a technique where its specifically designed to hold the 3D shapes around for containment and better control of the Destructive chakra in the center. In the example of Bocc's use against Yujo, he uses the shape, but its at a speed faster than mine. Athos' use in the FFA totally disregards the use of the containment, simply relying on the speed of the orbs and the impact. In my meaning of the words, "raw" and "unrefined" I'm stating that it's just the unrelenting Dust Release Chakra (Raw) and there's no form of containment to keep it from going as far as I need it to go (Unrefined). In regards to the amount of force in my pulse of energy, I mention that it would come at a speed that was immediate upon the clone's close in. This means that it would be moving at relative speeds to the clone, and at the speed it was moving, there would be more than enough concussive force to harm the clone enough to cause a dispel. Considering I was planning for a larger-scale version of this application, I took the distance into consideration and believed the small scale version would be much better. Sure, without the buffs, I wouldn't have tried this, but with the technique is multiplied in destructive capabilities, as well as the speed its traveling. I never stated the pulse to be Jinton Nagashi, that was Rusaku who gave it that name. I didn't realize I had to state where I got the inspiration from, considering last time I mentioned an ability it was considered an action, so I was being careful. I guess that's my bad. The pulse that I was personally imagining, in using both Ice and Dust applications, is derived from the EMP, which happens had a pretty amazing speed.

Still on the topic of the most basic of Dust Release techniques is an impossibility as there's only One Canon Example for the whole Kekkei Tota. In my mind, the most basic would be chakra control, which I've done. I state that I never went around in creating any of my own techniques, I don't state that I don't know how to use the chakra. I realize that's a double negative and that's the point. There is two techniques that exist in video games, but it's basically the same technique, just, again, used a bit differently. Should I move forward and assume that every technique must be derived from the Detachment of the Primitive World Technique? If so, I'll do just that and make my techniques with that in mind.

Onto the Flight Technique, I'll direct you to the actual inspiration for my Flight Technique.
Quote from: Jay Wikia
Flight Technique Through a manipulation of the air currents underneath him and a steady, and very miniscule, output of chakra, he's able to lift himself into the air and fly. The amount of chakra used equals the speed at which he's flying, while still only using a very small amount of chakra. This in itself required extensive training in chakra control. Even still, he's looking for a way to reverse engineer this ability so that he may use it without the use of his Eternal Mangekyo, which he's made no leeway as of yet.
On the subject of the reverse engineering, I've accomplished that on the site. On the subject of the Flight Technique page, again, I saw its lack of detail and basic picture sufficient enough to not warrant an edit and hijack. I see now that I should have just went through the trouble of putting together my own. And again, in what way is the manner of my flight a problem? Whether I'm 200+ or 2, it doesn't change anything in my post or the one prior, which you've already approved of when you posted.

On the subject of metagaming, I would like to again address your mention of the file. How did you obtain that? Granted you just took control of the Foundation, I would have to put that on the person in control before. But, like the past made relative, no Konoha ANBU have been in Uzu or anywhere around me any sort of intel. There's the case where I was in the actual village, but both cases I entered without giving my name or association, soo.... I find that there's no conceivable way for there to be a file, throwaway or not.

For me, I do a process of elimination and a guesstimation on my opponents abilities. I know you don't have the Rinnegan, because you have the Byakugan, same for Sharingan. So, in the context of the rules, you must have Sage Mode. For the others, its a bit more difficult. Unless I see it, I won't know if you actually have Wood/Ice and Gates/Bone. But, until I do, I assume the opposite that I have, because I would rather fight my opposite. In regards of the Tenseigan, that was a hunch more than an expectation. I'm aware of the capabilities of a Byakugan ascending into a Tenseigan, not the process. Hell I believed Ray's Byakugan (when he had it) would ascend to a Tenseigan. I actually hoped for it, but that's merely hearsay at this point (considering the time I choose to state this assumption). The fact that I see it happening lowers my personal surprise and allows me to keep from being overwhelmed by its usage. That's my personal mentality, with no meaning to metagame.

On the Ray front, through my ingesting of his blood, I did state that I would obtain a portion of his memories. If he forgot, that's on him, but I remember clearly. Doing so is non consensual, so he wouldn't have to tell me anything. Obtaining information in a non consensual manner is approvable on the site when used in correct fashions. I would love to re-spread out my peeps on some official shit, but I'm waiting until other things have been settled, so I'm not really claiming to get any info from the Manji Org.

I realize that its not short, so... my bad.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on August 10, 2017, 01:39:13 am
I'm going to make my reply short, or as short as possible.

For the topic of Dust Release. I would like to say that the Kekkei Tota has one single Technique of demonstration. That single technique has variations in which it can be used. The Detachment of the Primitive World Technique (as you point out) is a technique where its specifically designed to hold the 3D shapes around for containment and better control of the Destructive chakra in the center. In the example of Bocc's use against Yujo, he uses the shape, but its at a speed faster than mine. Athos' use in the FFA totally disregards the use of the containment, simply relying on the speed of the orbs and the impact. In my meaning of the words, "raw" and "unrefined" I'm stating that it's just the unrelenting Dust Release Chakra (Raw) and there's no form of containment to keep it from going as far as I need it to go (Unrefined). In regards to the amount of force in my pulse of energy, I mention that it would come at a speed that was immediate upon the clone's close in. This means that it would be moving at relative speeds to the clone, and at the speed it was moving, there would be more than enough concussive force to harm the clone enough to cause a dispel. Considering I was planning for a larger-scale version of this application, I took the distance into consideration and believed the small scale version would be much better. Sure, without the buffs, I wouldn't have tried this, but with the technique is multiplied in destructive capabilities, as well as the speed its traveling. I never stated the pulse to be Jinton Nagashi, that was Rusaku who gave it that name. I didn't realize I had to state where I got the inspiration from, considering last time I mentioned an ability it was considered an action, so I was being careful. I guess that's my bad. The pulse that I was personally imagining, in using both Ice and Dust applications, is derived from the EMP, which happens had a pretty amazing speed.

Still on the topic of the most basic of Dust Release techniques is an impossibility as there's only One Canon Example for the whole Kekkei Tota. In my mind, the most basic would be chakra control, which I've done. I state that I never went around in creating any of my own techniques, I don't state that I don't know how to use the chakra. I realize that's a double negative and that's the point. There is two techniques that exist in video games, but it's basically the same technique, just, again, used a bit differently. Should I move forward and assume that every technique must be derived from the Detachment of the Primitive World Technique? If so, I'll do just that and make my techniques with that in mind.

Onto the Flight Technique, I'll direct you to the actual inspiration for my Flight Technique.
Quote from: Jay Wikia
Flight Technique Through a manipulation of the air currents underneath him and a steady, and very miniscule, output of chakra, he's able to lift himself into the air and fly. The amount of chakra used equals the speed at which he's flying, while still only using a very small amount of chakra. This in itself required extensive training in chakra control. Even still, he's looking for a way to reverse engineer this ability so that he may use it without the use of his Eternal Mangekyo, which he's made no leeway as of yet.
On the subject of the reverse engineering, I've accomplished that on the site. On the subject of the Flight Technique page, again, I saw its lack of detail and basic picture sufficient enough to not warrant an edit and hijack. I see now that I should have just went through the trouble of putting together my own. And again, in what way is the manner of my flight a problem? Whether I'm 200+ or 2, it doesn't change anything in my post or the one prior, which you've already approved of when you posted.

On the subject of metagaming, I would like to again address your mention of the file. How did you obtain that? Granted you just took control of the Foundation, I would have to put that on the person in control before. But, like the past made relative, no Konoha ANBU have been in Uzu or anywhere around me any sort of intel. There's the case where I was in the actual village, but both cases I entered without giving my name or association, soo.... I find that there's no conceivable way for there to be a file, throwaway or not.

For me, I do a process of elimination and a guesstimation on my opponents abilities. I know you don't have the Rinnegan, because you have the Byakugan, same for Sharingan. So, in the context of the rules, you must have Sage Mode. For the others, its a bit more difficult. Unless I see it, I won't know if you actually have Wood/Ice and Gates/Bone. But, until I do, I assume the opposite that I have, because I would rather fight my opposite. In regards of the Tenseigan, that was a hunch more than an expectation. I'm aware of the capabilities of a Byakugan ascending into a Tenseigan, not the process. Hell I believed Ray's Byakugan (when he had it) would ascend to a Tenseigan. I actually hoped for it, but that's merely hearsay at this point (considering the time I choose to state this assumption). The fact that I see it happening lowers my personal surprise and allows me to keep from being overwhelmed by its usage. That's my personal mentality, with no meaning to metagame.

On the Ray front, through my ingesting of his blood, I did state that I would obtain a portion of his memories. If he forgot, that's on him, but I remember clearly. Doing so is non consensual, so he wouldn't have to tell me anything. Obtaining information in a non consensual manner is approvable on the site when used in correct fashions. I would love to re-spread out my peeps on some official shit, but I'm waiting until other things have been settled, so I'm not really claiming to get any info from the Manji Org.

I realize that its not short, so... my bad.

What Bocc and Athos have done in other fights is pointless here. They are not the authority of what actually works in this game. What flies with them does not fly with everyone. You're modeling yourself after people who often got away with MURDER when it came to fairness in SL, because no one cared enough to correct them, or didn't feel like they needed to be belittled. Those are bad people to use as role models, period. 

I do not agree that you can just shoot out the concussive force of dust release explosions without the proper shape manipulation regardless of how you try and dance around the terms.

The fact that there is only one cannon example of Dust Release should be an indicator that something like this wasn't within the realm of possibility. Two confirmed generations of Tsuchikage used Dust Release, yet neither expanded further beyond the one technique, instead opting to alter the geometric shape alone.

I don't remember you going into detail about it being some custom flight technique, instead just quoting the name of the jutsu, which is linked to the light weight rock technique right on your wikia.

Finally, drop the file nonsense. There is no file. This is an OOC battle and as you said I recently overtook ROOT. I mention a file, because we are leaders of intelligence organizations and wanted to build a psudo-plot for the fight. I specifically disregard the file because I'm not trying to cheat. The fact you're hung up on that at all is a little comical, I'm not gonna lie.

Rinnegan and Byakugan are not mutually exclusive, just look at Momoshiki. If you're trying to use the context of the OOC rules to drive your character's in game knowledge, that's metagaming.

Blood does not contain memories. Memories are physically embedded in the brain, so consuming someones blood wouldn't give you that access. It's different with souls, like the human path, because souls are ill defined in Naruto. Intentionally ambiguous to serve the plot when necessary, like how the Reaper Death seal does not grant the memories of the people whose souls are stolen, but the Human path does.  Blood on the other hand, has shown no explicitly unique trait specific to Naruto that would separate it from blood in the real world.     

Also, how do you just know that I have showed Ray my Tenseigan? Because I'm his teacher? That means absolutely nothing. Kakashi didn't show the children his Sharingan until he was faced with an opponent who required it. Jiraiya didn't tell Naruto he knew sage mode, or even that his father was the 4th Hokage. Teachers can keep secrets from their students. To just assume you have information on someone because of some 6 degrees of separation-esk logic is made on a foundation of sand. Perhaps you need to ASK before just assuming.

I would like to invite Warren to participate as well. Both combatants have stated their sides and had ample opportunities to defend their stances. No reason to let arguments delineate when a simple ruling can keep this fight going.   
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Warren on August 10, 2017, 02:12:29 am
Hookay. I'll actually make this short.

This is naruto, not hellsing. There are no memories in blood of any kind, even chakra has them only if they were specifically sealed into it. It may have worked for you in RP otherwise, but in this fight that won't be an acceptable excuse. Likewise for Rusaku, if there is no notable intel on Jay or anything at konoha, all he would know is what he's learned of him IC otherwise.

As for flying, if the SL page actually is out of date that bad and somehow nobody ever told Jay about it, he can't really be blamed for it in this instance. However allowing him to instead use any other flight technique he has available as a substitute because of that, isn't fair to Rusaku either. Due to this I find the fairest compromise to be that his flying for this fight will be treated the same as Onoki's trick, minus the weight loss. Takes chakra to use/maintain, the faster you wish to go the more it takes, no special tricks/empowerments for it.

The dust release wave, or whatever one wishes to call it, is a no-go. At a theoretical level sure, if you were capable of dust release it would be possible to release earth-fire-wind chakra on its own. However characteristics of dust at every single usage of it ever, have been that it takes time to set up and requires the hands to do so, is rather chakra-taxing, and that they achieve their destructive power due to all the chakra used in the jutsu being confined within that 3D shape. Your wave has none of those, and worse still to quote you yourself, its raw and unrefined. Its basically not dust release at this point, and even if you were to make some technique utilized exactly in this manner it still wouldn't work, because you can only use things your character knew before the fight started, not after.

TL;DR = the 'dust release wave' is going to do basically nothing, at most perhaps singe Rusaku's eyebrows or turn the paper slips in his pocket wonky.

Since Jay has already reposted once and I'm going to assume he has zero intent to give up, ruling is Rusaku will respond to Jay's post with the flying and dust release wave portions treated as mentioned above in this post.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on August 10, 2017, 11:12:58 pm
Right,

I don't have the information I said I don't have and Jay doesn't have the information he never acquired.  That one was easy.

His flight technique is...still the flight technique, but not. With how Warren put it, I can live with that compromise.

Dust Release fails and I react accordingly.

I think that ruling is pretty just. I'll go ahead and write up my post, unless something else develops here.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on August 21, 2017, 05:10:57 pm
Here we are again, discussing everything that is wrong with Jayís post.

First I want to address his use of Shuriken shadow clone to create the water necessary for his Owatatsumi. Jay seems to misunderstand how that particular technique works, so I want to clear that up. The water he produces with that technique will not be natural. Itís like saying a regular shadow clone isnít composed of chakra. Obviously they are; anything created through a jutsu is going to be composed of chakra, save for a few outliers like Kirin. If he had used a nearby lake or something of the like to produce this water, then maybe it would be more believable that the water was natural, but this is not the case.

I also want to look at his claims that the water is highly electrified. The only source for the electrified portion of that water dragon came from 3 lighting bolts Rusaku used to destroy the bombs. If this is in fact the case, there are only two ways this can go.

First is the reality that three lightning bolts applied to 0.3% of Jayís technique would not be enough to electrify a mile high dragon with numerous ratios that need to be taken into account like height, width, conductivity and many others. There simply wasnít enough energy to constitute the entire thing being electrified to the extreme Jay is trying to suggest.

The second option is that Jay copied the electricity I applied in addition to the water in order for his dragon to retain those properties. If that is the case, then he has just provided enough chakra to recreate my technique 997 times over and would drain him of all chakra.

Speaking of chakra levels, that is something else I would like to address. For a majority of this fight, Jay has been balancing numerous stacks with no mentions of the strain it would take to do so. He is currently in Raiton chakra mode, Sage mode, Devil Release Mode or whatever, using Mindís eye and Sharingan, while also sustaining a 500 meter barrier and regenerating an entire limb. With all this active, he then goes on to create 93 million gallons of water and shape it with his Sharingan into a mile high leviathan that proceeds to shoot a blast of water that Jay directly compares to an 8 tails Bijudama. I donít care who you are, I refuse to acknowledge that anyone in our verse can balance all of those very different techniques with the ease that Jay suggests. Sage mode alone is supposed to be this insanely difficult thing to have and maintain, yet he has this and 8 other things happening at the same time and is experiencing zero fatigue.

Finally, I want to look at his claims of Masane. If we look at a thread I will be providing below, it shows a 13-5 vote that the twins were killed in an altercation that happened in Amegakure.

http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8558.0.html

     
This happened in 2015, yet Jayís claims of ďeatingĒ her and getting his like...6th kekkei genkai in 2016. This does indeed lead to some ďparadoxĒ as he mentions in his post. Unfortunately, the only paradox has to do with Jay, who was apparently role playing with this girl a year after her untimely death. Though, unfortunately for Jay, he posted accepting her existence. His post has her in mind, mentioning that she would be destroyed by his suiton Bijudama. I just wanted to point out that he is the one who should be worried about his claims.

So to tie this up, I want to ask not only the judge, but also the community: How long am I going to have to deal with this crap? How many times does Jay get to retro post, meta game, god mod, and mess up his own actions before the fight getís called off and a winner decided? Itís not that I canít think of ways to kill him or that Iím having a difficult time, but if he is going to continually break the rules to survive, shouldnít he be penalized? How is it particularly fair that Iíve been abiding by the rules this entire fight, but Jay is not held to the same standard? Look at any competition in history and you will find that the moment one participant breaks the rules, they are disqualified. Sure you could try and use the ďitís a game!Ē argument, but that just wonít cut it. You can play any sport casually. You can go to the basketball court and play a quick game with your buddies, and maybe break a few rules because youíre with friends. But the moment you step into the NBA, you donít get to break those rules anymore. Itís an official competition now, not some game of pick up. Biju fights are the NBA in this analogy, obviously.
   
I want some kind of amendment to the time that this fight can go, or something. A lot of fights have the 30 day rule, then a winner is decided based on the fight thus far. Itís already been like 50 days since the thread was made. Can we put maybe a 2 week timer on it from here forward so this fight can actually come to an end? Thatís still 64 days that the fight went on, twice as long as most people have them go. Weíre two pages deep now, and will probably be 3 by the end of those two weeks. Thatís plenty of fight for Warren to properly judge our ability, seeing as most people get two or three rounds in before that 30 days is up. Have some sympathy for a brother. Look at what I have to put up with here >.>;
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Eric on August 22, 2017, 05:03:41 am
Quote
1 v 1 IC/OOC 15 Rounds of Fighting (Optional)

Reply #19 is the beginning of round 10, so technically you could carry on to round 15 and then have things end there, or if you to agree yall can end it sooner. There is more I could say but for now I am more curious as to Jay and Warren's response.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Ѕhadow on August 22, 2017, 10:55:31 pm
The community can't retro in rules even if it were 600-1 in favor of making the time to post be every 6 hours. Unless I misread what you're asking. I doubt Jay is one to succumb to peer pressure and seeing all our posts to amend the rules tugs at his kindheartedness.

Unless Jay agrees with you then we really have nothing to add but our own opinions. Which we will.

That being said I agree with your post as a whole. Let the fight end in two weeks. It's been a long enough time to show who the better fighter is.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on August 22, 2017, 11:47:32 pm
The community can't retro in rules even if it were 600-1 in favor of making the time to post be every 6 hours. Unless I misread what you're asking. I doubt Jay is one to succumb to peer pressure and seeing all our posts to amend the rules tugs at his kindheartedness.

According to what, though? I cannot stand these tribal rules that are somehow being enforced with no way to actually verify their existence. It's the same with the "acceptance" clause that I mention with the Masane situation. That rule is literally nowhere to be found, it's just something that was coined a few years back so people could screw over others in zone fights. The "community" is the only force in this game that actually has any say in how something goes down. If a fight is going on where there is obvious injustice, shouldn't the community be able to step in and stop whatever's happening?

Say when I win the nine, I make some rule that says I'm the only one who can use jutsu in our fight, then hide it amidst a mass of text that looks similar to the default rule template that people generally use for Biju stuff. It's highly likely that someone could fall pray to that stupid rule in thinking that I was just copy-pasting everyone else's stuff. Is it particularly fair that they have to suffer the remainder of that fight, and end up with a 3 month waiting period because they were cheated? I feel like the community should have plenty of authority to step in and stop that obvious farce of a match.

Quote
1 v 1 IC/OOC 15 Rounds of Fighting (Optional)

Reply #19 is the beginning of round 10, so technically you could carry on to round 15 and then have things end there, or if you to agree yall can end it sooner. There is more I could say but for now I am more curious as to Jay and Warren's response.

I wouldn't be opposed to this. That's 5 whole turns for Jay to try and turn everything around and impress Warren. I can live with this fight for 5 more rounds if it means that I finally get to see a light at the end of this tunnel. Though I'm also not opposed to the two weeks thing I originally suggested and Shadow agreed with, which would probably translate into one or two more rounds if we are hasty.
   
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Timothy on August 23, 2017, 01:23:32 am
Taking away any personal feelings on the content of the fight itself, I do think it's gone on quite long & wouldn't mind seeing a fair deadline to it in which either character could reasonably gain control/upper hand for the judge to decide as the 'victory moment' for them. One post made by a participant almost every other week (if both participants are taking the max-ish time to respond to each other) honestly feels a tad dull to me, the reader. I get the reasoning, but do agree with Rusaku that it gets quite dull.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Jestar on August 23, 2017, 02:04:23 am
I think Shadow meant biju rules, not zone rules, when he was talking about retro in stuff 600-1.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on August 23, 2017, 02:13:52 am
I think Shadow meant biju rules, not zone rules, when he was talking about retro in stuff 600-1.

Again, where does it say that the community can't get involved once the fight has started? Is that something I'm just not aware of?
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Ѕhadow on August 23, 2017, 03:47:37 am
I'll wait till Jay posts and see if what was said even matters or not.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Jestar on August 23, 2017, 04:19:03 am
I think Shadow meant biju rules, not zone rules, when he was talking about retro in stuff 600-1.

Again, where does it say that the community can't get involved once the fight has started? Is that something I'm just not aware of?

The judge has the final say in all decisions right? Community has no reason to get involved because everything supposed to be settled by the judge or, if need be, the Council. Other than giving opinions, why would the Community need to step in? The judge's call on whether Jay has done anything that would give you the win.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Dart Terumī on August 23, 2017, 06:34:13 am
I think Shadow meant biju rules, not zone rules, when he was talking about retro in stuff 600-1.

Again, where does it say that the community can't get involved once the fight has started? Is that something I'm just not aware of?

The judge has the final say in all decisions right? Community has no reason to get involved because everything supposed to be settled by the judge or, if need be, the Council. Other than giving opinions, why would the Community need to step in? The judge's call on whether Jay has done anything that would give you the win.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: JayJay on August 23, 2017, 12:44:25 pm
Here we are again, discussing everything that is wrong with Jay’s post.

First I want to address his use of Shuriken shadow clone to create the water necessary for his Owatatsumi. Jay seems to misunderstand how that particular technique works, so I want to clear that up. The water he produces with that technique will not be natural. It’s like saying a regular shadow clone isn’t composed of chakra. Obviously they are; anything created through a jutsu is going to be composed of chakra, save for a few outliers like Kirin. If he had used a nearby lake or something of the like to produce this water, then maybe it would be more believable that the water was natural, but this is not the case.

I also want to look at his claims that the water is highly electrified. The only source for the electrified portion of that water dragon came from 3 lighting bolts Rusaku used to destroy the bombs. If this is in fact the case, there are only two ways this can go.

First is the reality that three lightning bolts applied to 0.3% of Jay’s technique would not be enough to electrify a mile high dragon with numerous ratios that need to be taken into account like height, width, conductivity and many others. There simply wasn’t enough energy to constitute the entire thing being electrified to the extreme Jay is trying to suggest.

The second option is that Jay copied the electricity I applied in addition to the water in order for his dragon to retain those properties. If that is the case, then he has just provided enough chakra to recreate my technique 997 times over and would drain him of all chakra.

Speaking of chakra levels, that is something else I would like to address. For a majority of this fight, Jay has been balancing numerous stacks with no mentions of the strain it would take to do so. He is currently in Raiton chakra mode, Sage mode, Devil Release Mode or whatever, using Mind’s eye and Sharingan, while also sustaining a 500 meter barrier and regenerating an entire limb. With all this active, he then goes on to create 93 million gallons of water and shape it with his Sharingan into a mile high leviathan that proceeds to shoot a blast of water that Jay directly compares to an 8 tails Bijudama. I don’t care who you are, I refuse to acknowledge that anyone in our verse can balance all of those very different techniques with the ease that Jay suggests. Sage mode alone is supposed to be this insanely difficult thing to have and maintain, yet he has this and 8 other things happening at the same time and is experiencing zero fatigue.

Finally, I want to look at his claims of Masane. If we look at a thread I will be providing below, it shows a 13-5 vote that the twins were killed in an altercation that happened in Amegakure.

http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8558.0.html

     
This happened in 2015, yet Jay’s claims of “eating” her and getting his like...6th kekkei genkai in 2016. This does indeed lead to some “paradox” as he mentions in his post. Unfortunately, the only paradox has to do with Jay, who was apparently role playing with this girl a year after her untimely death. Though, unfortunately for Jay, he posted accepting her existence. His post has her in mind, mentioning that she would be destroyed by his suiton Bijudama. I just wanted to point out that he is the one who should be worried about his claims.

So to tie this up, I want to ask not only the judge, but also the community: How long am I going to have to deal with this crap? How many times does Jay get to retro post, meta game, god mod, and mess up his own actions before the fight get’s called off and a winner decided? It’s not that I can’t think of ways to kill him or that I’m having a difficult time, but if he is going to continually break the rules to survive, shouldn’t he be penalized? How is it particularly fair that I’ve been abiding by the rules this entire fight, but Jay is not held to the same standard? Look at any competition in history and you will find that the moment one participant breaks the rules, they are disqualified. Sure you could try and use the “it’s a game!” argument, but that just won’t cut it. You can play any sport casually. You can go to the basketball court and play a quick game with your buddies, and maybe break a few rules because you’re with friends. But the moment you step into the NBA, you don’t get to break those rules anymore. It’s an official competition now, not some game of pick up. Biju fights are the NBA in this analogy, obviously.
   
I want some kind of amendment to the time that this fight can go, or something. A lot of fights have the 30 day rule, then a winner is decided based on the fight thus far. It’s already been like 50 days since the thread was made. Can we put maybe a 2 week timer on it from here forward so this fight can actually come to an end? That’s still 64 days that the fight went on, twice as long as most people have them go. We’re two pages deep now, and will probably be 3 by the end of those two weeks. That’s plenty of fight for Warren to properly judge our ability, seeing as most people get two or three rounds in before that 30 days is up. Have some sympathy for a brother. Look at what I have to put up with here >.>;


Well, here we are again. Let me get on this supposed strain I'm supposed to be feeling. Let me start from the beginning. The Barrier is sustained by the chakra used to bring it to life, not a drain on my chakra at all. Absolutely no strain at all. EMS, no strain at all, same with Mind's Eye. CSM/RNY/DR these can cause strain for someone inexperienced to the power increase. Practice makes perfect and I always practice. Perhaps if I was in this state for more than a few seconds, you can argue strain. But, considering every one of our posts are happening in a matter of 1 to 2 seconds, at the most, I don't think the argument is valid. I'm going to ignore my status as a Jink and look at these feats and I have to say that I'm still capable of doing exactly what I'm doing, with little to no strain. With the energy augmentation that comes with being a Jink, I think this is lowered even more so. You're looking at this post wise, and I'm looking at it in real time and I'm not even sure the fight has been going on for long. The beginning was the slowest its ever been and now we're in the seconds. I haven't been doing anything chakra taxing and with the exception of my passive regen of my arm, my energy isn't being depleting by much. If anybody is being strained, it's you. You've been using the Byakugan the entire time. Unlike the EMS which erases strain from prolonged use, the Byakugan does induce some severe strain and leaves the user unable to perceive their targets. Not only have you been using it, but from my understanding throughout the fight, you've been keeping up with me and your clone as we moved at our high speeds. Even in the short amount of time, you should feel some stress from trying to keep up. But, then again, it's only been a few seconds since CSM entered the picture, so I don't really find much of an issue with you keeping it active or ascending to the Tenseigan.

Let's get onto the lightning situation. Sure, I must have miscalculated the power within your Tenseigan Chakra infused lightning. If it isn't strong enough to be conductive throughout all the water, I apologize, but it doesn't warrant an OOC discussion.

Onto the subject of the water, let me give it a swing. The orbs would filled with natural saltwater from the ocean. Multiplying that takes chakra... not a lot when comparing it to a Jink's chakra reserves. Using Owatatsumi takes control of the water, whether it has chakra inside of it or not. Even if using that technique was straining, I'm currently using Sage Mode and Devil Release, which lessens any chakra drainage I might suffer if I was simply using it sans those buffs. Said buffs also increase the power exponentially. I compared the blast of water to the size of Gyuki's Tailed Beast Wave. The blast I released is strong enough to slice through metals, without the buffs. With the buffs, I up the scale while taking the character into consideration.

On the subject of Masane, I don't even care. It matters not her state of being. Sure, I "accept" her summoning, but go along to say that it couldn't have even happened at all. Showing the amount of fucks I give whether she was on the battlefield or not.

You're saying that I'm godmodding, retro posting and etc, etc, when I'm simply reacting to your posts in a capable way. I'm not magically changing things up when you post something difficult. All this time, I've been appeasing you and your own shortcomings. You're saying that you can think of a way to kill me, then try and do it. I'm not going to simply stand still and let it hit me, obviously. If you do something that I feel that I honestly cant evade, then I'll go ahead and take an L, but you're not doing anything I can't evade. The only thing that I couldn't dodge was Kirin, and I still managed to evade enough of it.

With the exception of my arm, which is slowly (because of the time in the posts) being regenerated, I have not sustained any damage. It's not retroposting that I've given my character what he needs to react at insanely high speeds. Its not metagame to use said skills to in the manner that benefits my character. Its not godmod to use my unvoided/unnerfed skills. The only thing that I "messed up" was the Dust Release situation and I accept that. Wishing for an end when you haven't done anything life threatening is not a good idea for this fight.

I would suggest the whole 15 rounds of fighting scenario that Eric brought up, but the fight has not followed the rules of engagement. Each of our posts would be one minute of fighting each. For the full 15 rounds of fighting we would each need to have 30 posts of fighting, with a post in between for the rest, totaling at 90 posts. However, this option wasn't taken and thus its an ordinary OOC match.

It doesn't matter how long the fight has been going on, when the time in-fight has not even been long at all. Quit choosing to whine after every post and fight. The time would be even longer if I decided to do the same. Opinions about something can be done in post. Serious discussions like the situation with the Wood Release, is the only time when a discussion should be prompted. These discussions are the reason why the fight isn't at the point it should be. I could have stopped the fight for your last post, but I don't care for starting arguments. Again, just try to kill me instead of trying for a decision, since you say you can. There's no time limit in my fight, so you're just gonna have to go for that deathblow. If there's anybody who is more tired of this fight, its me
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Warren on August 23, 2017, 10:28:05 pm
Okay enough with the trash talk Jay. Rusaku has been contesting solely legitimate issues, and even you yourself admitted having been at fault about them, so he is not just "whining". Hell, he has even specifically chosen not to contest several issues, just because he hoped he could get this done sooner without further drama.

But guess not. Because a judge has to deal and address with all this crap, I will write it out for whoever wants to read it. Whoever does not want to read it however, can just scroll to the end for the TL;DR.

You ARE godmodding, retroposting, "etc etc". Rusaku has been lounging in a hammock while you fight his clones and puppets, taking the equivalent of a nap, which is quite a long time. You even yourself stated each post is roughly a minute or so max. Yet you then immediately try to claim it has all been but a few seconds max.

You also have been for numerous times now using an unexistent hiraishin marker, which you never emoted placing down at any point. You simply "appeared in a flash" at the beginning, then never mentioned placing a marker down much less the supposed mark itself, until you had to repost, after which suddenly this thing had been in existence all along.

Good for you Rusaku chose not to contest that particular bit, but that doesnt take away from the fact you have been retroposting, especially when said marker basically nullified numerous actions of his, as even he stated.

All techniques, modes and whatever require chakra/stamina, without exception. I don't care how good you claim to have become at using some technique, it applies WITHOUT exception. Even if it didn't, your claim of Rusaku's byakugan usage wouldn't fly at all, because he too has practised its usage extensively so it'd be no drain at all to him.

Even Itachi himself who is often called basically the sharingan god of canon, not only needed chakra to run sharingan but he even was shown deactivating it after being weakened and low on chakra. Even a "god" like Sasuke at the last fight against Naruto couldn't activate his, due to low on chakra.

Eternal mangekyo, takes chakra. Only difference is that it empowers mangekyo techniques and no longer makes you go blind.

Mind's eye of kagura, takes chakra. Even wiki itself specifically speaks of requiring its usage. One could even argue you've been using it wrong all this time too, because Karin herself had to always sit still and firmly focus, and depending on what she was looking for it would take a little while as well. Not just a split second activation while on the move to instantly be aware of everything.

Raiton no yoroi, good lord it takes chakra. Your entire body is literally shrouded by a significant amount of raiton chakra throughout its usage, especially ludicrous for the amount of power you've been claiming to get out of it.

Sage mode, if nothing else its a notable mental strain, cause no matter how much of a master one claims to be, they will still turn into stone if they screw up nature energy control. Especially true in your case with you trying to empower it even further with that ultra corrosive chaos stuff.

Devil release, don't even try to BS your way out of this thing not being straining/draining at all. You go to significant detail on the wiki itself of how it uses the users very own soul and life force to power it, not even to speak of how it deals unfixable damage too without a pact with an 'evil god'. Even if I ignore the fact I do not acknowledge "Jashin" to be a deity of any sort with even an iota of my being, devil release is still going to strain/drain you.

So yeah. Add the regeneration on top of all that, and that's quite the collective amount of strains and chakra drains on you active all at once.

And that's without even beginning about the water. You had 0% mastery by the time the fight began, so you gain no benefit whatsoever from Kurama, so all you have is your own chakra. As stated above, EMS only powers up mangekyo techniques and you no longer go blind, so it will still drain chakra to use the techniques proportionate to the power used.

We see as ungodly early as Orochimaru attacking Konoha, that it takes hokage level skill and chakra to conjure enough water for even a simple suijinheki, due to how taxing/difficult conjuring water purely out of chakra alone is. Even with the garbage weather at your battlefield, not only would there be a negligible amount present in the air compared to how much you're trying to make, but it would arguably take even more chakra to extract it to that degree. You're also trying to pull water from the greenery, most of which is Rusaku's forest at this point with his chakra present in it, which you would have to overcome, which would take even more chakra.

So in short, that pulling on natural sources you attempted wouldn't really help your case at all, and just tax your chakra even more.

And then to the actual created water. As aforementioned even for pros who spent their whole lives mastering the element, creating a lot can be taxing. You are claiming to have created almost a HUNDRED MILLION GALLONS, 99.9999999...% from your chakra alone. And then you also claim to control it precisely into a huge dragon in an instant, instead of the explosive expansion of that much water all at once tearing you to shreds.

You cant just stare at something to manipulate it for free, only way you can bend it to your will is sending your chakra over and manipulating it that way. Simpler said, you would also be claiming to specifically precisely control that almost HUNDRED MILLION GALLONS of water. I would like to say something that excessive would melt the eyes from your head and fry your network worse than Gai was by 8th gate, but I don't feel like arguing over your durability/chakra pool/regeneration/yadayada yet again.

So to close up this mess, here's a closing ruling for the combatants and whoever else might be reading.

TL;DR = Due to the plain absurd amount of chakra used, the water dragon is created, but Jay is left drained to hell with only meager amounts of chakra left, and it is not electrified due to far too little lightning present.

If Jay refuses this ruling, then due to the repost having been used up already, Rusaku wins.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on September 02, 2017, 06:13:25 pm
Jay has requested a 7 day extension to his posting time. In accordance with the Biju rules, it does not appear as if I can decline. His next post is due on the 9th, I think.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Camel on September 02, 2017, 06:53:51 pm
Jay has requested a 7 day extension to his posting time. In accordance with the Biju rules, it does not appear as if I can decline. His next post is due on the 9th, I think.

ē A Host or Challenger who fails to make a post to the RP match once every 7 days, without posting a notice of absence to the forum host thread in question, will forfeit the match. During this forfeit, the bijuu will either remain with the host, in the event of challenger inactivity, or be transferred to the challenger, in the event of host inactivity.


According to the bijuu rules, Jay himself is supposed to let everyone know about his extension or any sort of absence that may hinder him from posting as scheduled; this is something that *he* also needs to address or otherwise it'll be a forfeit.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on September 02, 2017, 08:15:09 pm
Jay has requested a 7 day extension to his posting time. In accordance with the Biju rules, it does not appear as if I can decline. His next post is due on the 9th, I think.

ē A Host or Challenger who fails to make a post to the RP match once every 7 days, without posting a notice of absence to the forum host thread in question, will forfeit the match. During this forfeit, the bijuu will either remain with the host, in the event of challenger inactivity, or be transferred to the challenger, in the event of host inactivity.


According to the bijuu rules, Jay himself is supposed to let everyone know about his extension or any sort of absence that may hinder him from posting as scheduled; this is something that *he* also needs to address or otherwise it'll be a forfeit.

Oh shit boi. He came to me about it and I was just letting the people know. If he's breaking the rules then that's his beef, not mine. I'll sit back and watch the plot thicken, if it does at all.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Warren on September 02, 2017, 10:54:35 pm
If he's supposed to do it himself, unless my math is wrong he's about 1 hour over the 7 day limit at the time I'm posting this.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Eric on September 03, 2017, 12:29:04 am
Jay has requested a 7 day extension to his posting time. In accordance with the Biju rules, it does not appear as if I can decline. His next post is due on the 9th, I think.

In recent practice this would normally be enough to sate challengers and nobody would say anything about it, but as Kamui quoted, technically hosts are supposed to state leaves of absence in the beast thread, which he has not done. This is considered an automatic forfeit which, in the case of this being an active OOC biju battle, would result in the beast being awarded to the challenger. The activity clause is the one of the few rules where a warning is not required before action is taken.

If Jay, Rusaku, or Warren want to take this up to the Council and have us officially talk about it and make a decision then just say the words. Other than that this fight is over by auto-forfeit.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Optimal Saiteki on September 03, 2017, 12:47:26 am
If Jay, Rusaku, or Warren want to take this up to the Council and have us officially talk about it and make a decision then just say the words. Other than that this fight is over by auto-forfeit.

Isn't that you making a decision, though?
Shouldn't this fall to Warren, as current Judge, to rule on?
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Warren on September 03, 2017, 01:20:11 am
If memory serves, the overall bijuu rules are something you're supposed to have read and follow without exception, if you choose to be a host of one of the 'official' beasts. So the "I didn't know" isn't a viable excuse.

Jay has also been online during the 7 day period on multiple occasions, even posted a rather sizable post in public at least once. Even if the reason for the extension request had surfaced only after that post, I refuse to believe he would have had the time to specifically log onto SL, much less onto forum and specifically look up Rusaku here to PM him about the extension...yet somehow not have had the time to post a simple one liner of "shit happened, need an extension starting from this point" to the thread.

Unless Rusaku for whatever reason wants to continue this and wait even longer, this fights over with Jay's loss by time-out.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Old Man Xia on September 03, 2017, 02:08:31 am
From what Kamui and Eric have posted, a bijuu rule was broken that would bring the council into this matter, and i concur with Eric on this ruling that he has forfeited the match.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on September 03, 2017, 06:12:36 am
If anyone thinks I'm going to dispute a possible DQ they are sorely mistaken. Gimmie that beast. 
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Dart Terumī on September 03, 2017, 10:08:05 am
There is a violation of rules here...and as such, a DQ is in order. At this point, if it is required to go to Council vote, Jay loses the beast.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Warren on September 03, 2017, 01:53:43 pm
There's nothing to vote on, rule was broken with nothing to defend his case. Rusaku doesn't want to grant the extension, so this fight is over.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Old Man Xia on September 03, 2017, 03:11:31 pm
There's nothing to vote on, rule was broken with nothing to defend his case. Rusaku doesn't want to grant the extension, so this fight is over.

There ya go. Have fun :)
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Eric on September 04, 2017, 03:53:53 am
If Jay, Rusaku, or Warren want to take this up to the Council and have us officially talk about it and make a decision then just say the words. Other than that this fight is over by auto-forfeit.

Isn't that you making a decision, though?
Shouldn't this fall to Warren, as current Judge, to rule on?

Short answer: No, it is not the judge's job to enforce the biju rules, it's the Council's.

Long answer:

The judges in the match rule on whether the guidelines of zone fighting and general RP have been followed, while the Biju Council makes rulings on rule violations. This was a rule violation, one with a consequence outlined clearly in the Biju Rules.

Had Rusaku's post about the extension been followed up by nothing, then I would not have personally said anything until either called upon directly or until Rusaku had an issue with it. Imho, the violator should not be the only one who can miss out on not knowing the rules, as from my point of view the Council is not tasked with hunting for rule violations. It would make the job much more difficult and make us more like inquisitors than enforcers.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: JayJay on September 04, 2017, 06:20:39 am
(http://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/05d12df4-57b1-4f91-b2a4-876ef24799e6/7c9013d0-0b2c-47bf-83b2-521d3c03f949.png)
(http://thumbs.newschoolers.com/index.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.nscdn.com%2Fuploads%2Fcache%2Fimages%2F1282542718-895367-359x306-1282539229maradona-I-aint-even-mad-yo.jpg&size=400x1000)

GG, bro. I'm gonna make my exit post and lock it.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Rusaku on September 04, 2017, 04:03:03 pm
I might have to hit you up for a fight with less on the line, so we can let loose. Not worry about the rules so much.

(https://dsayonara.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/18.png)

Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Optimal Saiteki on September 04, 2017, 07:03:21 pm
If Jay, Rusaku, or Warren want to take this up to the Council and have us officially talk about it and make a decision then just say the words. Other than that this fight is over by auto-forfeit.

Isn't that you making a decision, though?
Shouldn't this fall to Warren, as current Judge, to rule on?

Short answer: No, it is not the judge's job to enforce the biju rules, it's the Council's.

Long answer:

The judges in the match rule on whether the guidelines of zone fighting and general RP have been followed, while the Biju Council makes rulings on rule violations. This was a rule violation, one with a consequence outlined clearly in the Biju Rules.

Had Rusaku's post about the extension been followed up by nothing, then I would not have personally said anything until either called upon directly or until Rusaku had an issue with it. Imho, the violator should not be the only one who can miss out on not knowing the rules, as from my point of view the Council is not tasked with hunting for rule violations. It would make the job much more difficult and make us more like inquisitors than enforcers.

Er... Okay?
You still made a decision without being asked, though, from what I'm seeing. Why would you have left it be if no one said anything?
If something is your job, then it's your job whether or not anyone says anything about it, right? So either it's the councils job to rule on ALL infractions, or just the ones brought to you, isn't it? Or can they just pick and choose which violations to enforce? My point is, if no one brought it directly to the council, it's not a council matter. If it is a council matter, because it's a Bijuu rule and not just a general rule, then it's not just something you can ignore because someone "didn't know the rules".
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Sabumaru on September 05, 2017, 02:03:58 am
If Jay, Rusaku, or Warren want to take this up to the Council and have us officially talk about it and make a decision then just say the words. Other than that this fight is over by auto-forfeit.

Isn't that you making a decision, though?
Shouldn't this fall to Warren, as current Judge, to rule on?

Short answer: No, it is not the judge's job to enforce the biju rules, it's the Council's.

Long answer:

The judges in the match rule on whether the guidelines of zone fighting and general RP have been followed, while the Biju Council makes rulings on rule violations. This was a rule violation, one with a consequence outlined clearly in the Biju Rules.

Had Rusaku's post about the extension been followed up by nothing, then I would not have personally said anything until either called upon directly or until Rusaku had an issue with it. Imho, the violator should not be the only one who can miss out on not knowing the rules, as from my point of view the Council is not tasked with hunting for rule violations. It would make the job much more difficult and make us more like inquisitors than enforcers.

Er... Okay?
You still made a decision without being asked, though, from what I'm seeing. Why would you have left it be if no one said anything?
If something is your job, then it's your job whether or not anyone says anything about it, right? So either it's the councils job to rule on ALL infractions, or just the ones brought to you, isn't it? Or can they just pick and choose which violations to enforce? My point is, if no one brought it directly to the council, it's not a council matter. If it is a council matter, because it's a Bijuu rule and not just a general rule, then it's not just something you can ignore because someone "didn't know the rules".

This can be done in a new thread or in private, this one should be locked like a chastity belt.
Title: Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
Post by: Ѕhadow on September 05, 2017, 03:11:18 am
Topic has served its purpose. Locked.  :wink: