Game Development > Discussions
Hyuuga Reset Revamp
Old Man Xia:
Posting for a friend
As the name suggests I'm here to talk about the imbalance of the Byakugan versus it's 'equal' reset, the Sharingan. I believe it is known in the SL community that the Byakugan as an in-game reset (we are not talking about RP here) is severely weaker than it's counterpart.
This oversight has gone on for a long while for reasons we're not here to speculate about, but it's time we finally did something to even out the two and perhaps boost the number of varying reset types we have here on SL.
The problems with the Byakugan start with the fact that it's buff is not infinite. It's buff is comparable to the Sharingan when it is on (I am not sure about this, but it seems that way from simple observation) but the problem is that it runs out! The sharingan gets a SIMILAR buff INDEFINITELY, which vastly puts it ahead of the Byakugan at this early stage of analysis.
Now the next thing we have here, is the matter of it's Jutsu. They are cheap, at 1 chakra point each BUT they are not as strong as advertised by the reset system. These jutsu are supposed to be stronger than the chakra types you can pick from normal leveling and stat distribution as it's stated in the reset description. But nearing the 50+ DK range, Kaiten stops doing similar damage as Hyouton does, even if the rounds are longer. The longer rounds do not completely make up for the lack of strength, because as this has happened on a GM Hyuuga you still get hit often while Kaiten is active because the Byakugan turns often run out.
And another main issue I would like to present here is that the Hyuuga leveling style when done at it's best is extremely chakra point reliant, and quick leveling cannot be done until 3-4th reset where it still falls short of the Sharingan at 2 resets constant buff.
The fix: Now that I have gotten the reasoning for this out of the way, let's get down to the proposed fix. This is up for evaluation and others may put their LOGICAL input in. (I'd like to keep from personal opinions like "Byakugan is weaker than Sharingan in manga so deal with it" as this is about game balance, not Manga accuracy as the in-game resets should be)
I propose that we have the Byakugan have a constant buff of equal strength to the sharingans without the need to constantly re-activate it over and over. This will close the gap between the two resets, it's really that simple.
We take away the chakra point reliance that the Byakugan suffers from. This will also give people a viable second option for resets in the dojutsu category.
Now we have the issue of "well if the Byakugan is constantly active, you can just spam Kaiten!" This would be true! But I am also proposing that we chakra how those jutsu work a bit to once again work more like the sharingan resets (because let's be honest the sharingan resets WORK, thus why so many people choose it).
Kaiten would work similarly to Tsukiyomi, but with a higher chakra cost (because the Byakugan has no Mangekyou form to activate and use chakra on)
And Hakke Rokujyuyonsho would take the place of Amaterasu with high burst damage but no lasting turns. Again at an increased chakra cost in comparison.
As for Jyuken, I am not certain what to do with this. And am open to suggestions as I am for this entire post.
The goal here is to get this imbalance in the system worked out between the two resets. I know there are other people who feel the same, but not many who have spoken up about it for some reason or another. So let's see if we can get Neji to work on this!
Old Man Xia:
Replying to what he/she thinks should be fixed, I don't like the idea of boosting the chakra required to use it as it is lower than Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu for a reason, but I do feel strongly about the strength of Kaiton's power stopping like Hyouton does around 50+ DKs. I have both a Grand Master Uchiha and Hyuuga, and Uchiha with the constant buff proves to be a more reliable choice than Hyuuga by far.
Raifudo Oppa:
*Its; possessive. It was bugging me.
--- Quote ---As the name suggests I'm here to talk about the imbalance of the Byakugan versus it's 'equal' reset, the Sharingan. I believe it is known in the SL community that the Byakugan as an in-game reset (we are not talking about RP here) is severely weaker than it's counterpart.
--- End quote ---
It's not "equal." No KG of the same tree play the same. They have similar mechanics, sure, but they're never "equal."
Hyuuga need to raise their attack through academy training. Sharingan doesn't.
Hyuuga is a burst-based reset. Sharingan is more of a steadily-paced one with more utility.
Hachimon is mostly a buff/survival reset; each gate either raises your stats or heals you.
Kaguya is mostly a buff/attack reset; each move offers an attack that raises defensive or offensive capabilities.
Hyouton is more of an offensive reset.
Senju is more of a defensive reset.
Rinnegan is more of a Jack of all trades reset.
Sage Mode is more of a heavy-hitters/nuke'm reset.
They play differently and SHOULD play differently as that's the point of having options. There is no need to have options if they offer the same exact abilities.
Also, you should remember that, like every reset, attacks scale based on resets and dragon kills. Much like a 2-reset Uchiha has trouble with using Tsukiyomi to one-shot everything (unlike its 3rd and 4th-reset counterpart), a Hyuuga will have trouble one-shot'ting everything until more resets/kills are introduced.
--- Quote ---This oversight has gone on for a long while for reasons we're not here to speculate about, but it's time we finally did something to even out the two and perhaps boost the number of varying reset types we have here on SL.
--- End quote ---
1. We're aware of the reasons. They're not supposed to play the same.
2. We have 8 total resets right now with the ability to generate, at least, 16 different possibilities of reset combinations.
--- Quote ---The problems with the Byakugan start with the fact that it's buff is not infinite. It's buff is comparable to the Sharingan when it is on (I am not sure about this, but it seems that way from simple observation) but the problem is that it runs out! The sharingan gets a SIMILAR buff INDEFINITELY, which vastly puts it ahead of the Byakugan at this early stage of analysis.
--- End quote ---
How is it a problem if its buff is not infinite? You can't call it a problem if that's how it was meant to work. Needless to say, we've yet to see a Hyuuga with the ability (or need) to keep their Byakugan active at all times (unlike their sharingan counterpart).
From the Wiki:
--- Quote ---So, in the game a Byakugan User decreases the enemy attack and defense while Byakugan is active, so not as much as a Sharingan would.
Also, the activation costs more chakra and is limited as it drains forth chakra.
--- End quote ---
-http://wiki.shinobilegends.com/index.php/Kekkei_Genkai:_Hyuuga
--- Quote ---Now the next thing we have here, is the matter of it's Jutsu. They are cheap, at 1 chakra point each BUT they are not as strong as advertised by the reset system. These jutsu are supposed to be stronger than the chakra types you can pick from normal leveling and stat distribution as it's stated in the reset description. But nearing the 50+ DK range, Kaiten stops doing similar damage as Hyouton does, even if the rounds are longer. The longer rounds do not completely make up for the lack of strength, because as this has happened on a GM Hyuuga you still get hit often while Kaiten is active because the Byakugan turns often run out.
--- End quote ---
Y'know, Kaiten does something Tsubame Fubuki doesn't (assuming you're using the 3-chakra attack in comparison to the Kaiten), and that's hit more than 2-5 (I forgot which number it is) enemies at once.
Either way, if you take into account that Kaiten(2) lasts 9 (plus 1 initial) rounds and hits 2-5 enemies in the 50dk+ range and compare that to the Tsubame Fubuki(3) that lasts 3-4 (plus 1 initial) rounds, you're looking at a comparable amount of damage done as opposed to damage per turn. Needless to say, you're looking at a third of the chakra normally needed with Hyouton.
I can see where the wiki could be misleading in some ways:
--- Quote ---Specialty "Hyuuga Techniques" is available. This one is stronger than a normal jutsu set.
--- End quote ---
-http://wiki.shinobilegends.com/index.php/Kekkei_Genkai:_Hyuuga
The "normal jutsu set" could be misleading and they could mean things that don't require stat-distribution (Gen/Tai).
--- Quote ---And another main issue I would like to present here is that the Hyuuga leveling style when done at it's best is extremely chakra point reliant, and quick leveling cannot be done until 3-4th reset where it still falls short of the Sharingan at 2 resets constant buff.
--- End quote ---
The reset is always chakra-point reliant. In higher levels, it just manages to give you more bang for your buck.
--- Quote ---The fix: Now that I have gotten the reasoning for this out of the way, let's get down to the proposed fix. This is up for evaluation and others may put their LOGICAL input in. (I'd like to keep from personal opinions like "Byakugan is weaker than Sharingan in manga so deal with it" as this is about game balance, not Manga accuracy as the in-game resets should be)
I propose that we have the Byakugan have a constant buff of equal strength to the sharingans without the need to constantly re-activate it over and over. This will close the gap between the two resets, it's really that simple.
--- End quote ---
No, it's not that simple. Now you have to nerf the abilities because of their low chakra need and their strong burst + round count.
If you want to propose this, you realize you'll have to make the same change for Rinnegan also? Rinnegan has a constant buff that works similar to sharingan and byakugan also. Going to have to give sage mode a constant buff instead of their high round count.
--- Quote ---We take away the chakra point reliance that the Byakugan suffers from. This will also give people a viable second option for resets in the dojutsu category.
--- End quote ---
So, in other words, you're saying to take out Hyuuga, implement sharingan a second time and rename it "Hyuuga." The only way to balance the two is to make them identical in all mechanics except the jutsu they offer.
--- Quote ---Now we have the issue of "well if the Byakugan is constantly active, you can just spam Kaiten!" This would be true! But I am also proposing that we chakra how those jutsu work a bit to once again work more like the sharingan resets (because let's be honest the sharingan resets WORK, thus why so many people choose it).
--- End quote ---
No, they choose it because it's the easy route. I can just as easily get 3 kills a regular day with a byakugan as I can a sharingan. Byakugan just takes more effort and careful planning/sacrifice.
--- Quote ---Kaiten would work similarly to Tsukiyomi, but with a higher chakra cost (because the Byakugan has no Mangekyou form to activate and use chakra on)
And Hakke Rokujyuyonsho would take the place of Amaterasu with high burst damage but no lasting turns. Again at an increased chakra cost in comparison.
As for Jyuken, I am not certain what to do with this. And am open to suggestions as I am for this entire post.
--- End quote ---
"Make Tsukiyomi tsukiyomi, change amaterasu to amaterasu, and make x another x."
--- Quote ---The goal here is to get this imbalance in the system worked out between the two resets. I know there are other people who feel the same, but not many who have spoken up about it for some reason or another. So let's see if we can get Neji to work on this!
--- End quote ---
Because many understand the differences they each offer and how much their play style differs.
sploofmoof:
I agree with this whole heartedly. The Byakugan is too much weaker than the Sharingan to promote anyone to actually pick it. The only ones even capable of leveling as fast as the sharingan are people will MAX resets in the Byakugan and even then, the smallest thing screws up their leveling that doesn't even hinder the Sharingan
Generally what I get from Raifudo's post is that he believes they are supposed to be different, but they aren't just DIFFERENT. If you're honestly saying that the Byakugan is capable of leveling as fast as the Sharingan, then you're absolutely crazy. It can get similar results of one gameday kills when it has 3-4 resets. The sharingan can do it earlier, and BETTER. And after 50+ the Byakugans leveling just plummets as Kaiten starts to weaken against creatures. At higher kills, when closer to 100 and above it won't even be usable at it's rate of deteriorating use.
Now, Raifudo I did notice you mention other resets. But let's be honest, the only LEVELING resets are Dojutsu category and Sage arts category. The others are mainly for RP claims. The other resets have minor boosts to leveling at best in comparison.
But it is true that the Byakugan even with it's different playstyle is just too much weaker than the sharingan as it is now. So if you want to say the two should play differently, then why don't you suggest a way to do that and have the Byakugan actually be as useful as the Sharingan and post some actual constructive criticism.
The difference between sharingan -byakugan and Sage mode- Rinnegan. Is that they both are equal in power even in their playstyle differences.
Old Man Xia:
--- Quote from: Raifudo, the Raifudo on January 27, 2013, 07:59:24 PM ---
--- Quote ---Now we have the issue of "well if the Byakugan is constantly active, you can just spam Kaiten!" This would be true! But I am also proposing that we chakra how those jutsu work a bit to once again work more like the sharingan resets (because let's be honest the sharingan resets WORK, thus why so many people choose it).
--- End quote ---
No, they choose it because it's the easy route. I can just as easily get 3 kills a regular day with a byakugan as I can a sharingan. Byakugan just takes more effort and careful planning/sacrifice.
--- End quote ---
This is true, and yet with my Hyuuga almost being maxed in Sennin Modo, I spam Kaiten as much as I can just to get a kill, possibly ress myself if needed. It is difficult for a Hyuuga, but careful planning takes its toll if you know what to do as Rai has said, but I get countless kills now because the extra boost helps with Sage mode.
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