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Author Topic: Zone Council Idea  (Read 1520 times)

UettoSenju

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Zone Council Idea
« on: May 21, 2013, 08:20:56 am »

This is a quote from another topic. I just wanted to expand on it but not ruin that topics true meaning by bringing unneeded content into it.

There seems to be some confusion on what a GM actually is, so I figured I would weigh in on this topic to clarify what I consider are a few misconceptions.

I see a lot of people saying that GM's give ruling on zone fights, mentioned both here and on SL. However as people are all too fond of pointing out, GMs have no power to do anything at all.

Game Master = Dungeon Master.

This is the person who comes up with story line, creates events and implements them. Advertises and drums up enthusiasm among the players of the game to participate. Makes accommodations for everyone to have something to do during the event and tries to see that all are able to enjoy themselves. The GM is not a player...this means that it is not the GM against  the players in a win/lose situation.

Rather, the GM has to be aware of the player's skill, craft foes and obstacles that meet their skill level but do not exceed it, and then set up situations in which a player character can face a challenge and use their skills, talents, and creativity to cope with it. The GM helps the player grow their character. It is important not to create tasks too hard or too easy. Rewards that are too weak or too abundant are also a thing to be avoided.

IT should be noted...ANYONE can do this. I did this for years without the GM powers and it is silly people who think differently. Additionally...zoning is not RP. it is a part of RP. Any action your character performs is RP and it is so much more than just fighting.
There are a TON of people on SL who are starving for RP to do that is not zone fighting and war. There are many many more people who are not powerhouses and need to grow in RP and experience other adventures besides zoning.

As far as rendering decisions on zone fights go, anyone that both parties agree upon can be called in to arbitrate. It is preferable they know how to RP and to zone and understand the rules of game play.

As we can see Kay has pointed out some pretty damn good reasoning here. The simple fact is a GM is supposed to be more then just a "Zone Fight Referee" after all RP is meant to be much more then fighting but rather actually causing your character to live out life through your post (one of the reasons I make Uetto train and eat on a daily basis usually when not rp locked or such... off topic I know). Sadly though, SL has a major portion of its rp dedicated to fighting... and we all know RP fights lead to RL fights.

Anyways, the point I am trying to make here is this. The amount of GM are limited and there are always fights and arguments between rpers causing the GM to become burdened really. Like Kay said the job of GM is much more complex but hell lets face it most think that the ruling of a GM in a zone match is what is truly official.

So I was thinking (this may sound stupid and overrated but meh) why not form a rp council kind of thing? I know it was kinda almost done with the Biju Counicl but why not actually vote 5-6 people to over looking zone fights and such.

These people don't have to truly be GM status but their position would be meaningful non the less. Also having this sort of thing around would help the GM some sense they do have lives you know and can't always be there to give their input. Seriously the number of GM is limited.

Like I said the idea is overrated but I thought it was worth tossing out there. I am sure this isn't the first time it has been brought up but I would like to see it actually happen or something.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 08:21:40 am by UettoSenju »
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KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2013, 09:01:54 am »

I have to disagree on the statement, "most think that the ruling of a GM in a zone match is what is truly official. "

If you will look at the trolling that occurs after a GM actually bothers to put themselves out there with an opinion then you will see this just is not so. Unless the majority of the people who think a GMs word is official are largely silent.

Still, something needs to be done to quell the arguing over zoning. Let's say you get us to agree on who makes rulings...that means there must be rules somewhere...

However this thing plays out, I feel it imperative that common decency be adhered to at all times. I think that if you get out of control, start name calling and badgering, making personal attacks....over a game for pete's sake....that you should automatically lose the match. Unsportsmanlike behavior.

What if rather than having a set body of a council, that we had a guideline of what was and what was not permissible. That could be modified by what the participants agree to. And then if people need someone to make a ruling, they can start a thread for discussion...to keep the zone clean. Then people could make their comments based on the basic guidelines and the starting parameters agreed upon by the participants. This would only be needful if the two could not settle things on their own.

The idea would be to decrease the number of mediations needed. As when playing a game of poker you declare what the game is...5 card draw-2s wild, 7 card stud, texas hold 'en...So too the participants would state at the beginning of their match by what criteria they are 'zoning', what is legit and what is not for that encounter.

Then this would be something that anyone could speak to. Point at and say, "This is not permitted and that was performed incorrectly and you failed to react to that properly and yes indeed this move would have that amount of power."

This might allow room for a greater amount of varied RP encounters. It could be a way to accommodate all our differing styles and ideas upon what is legit and what is not. Provide a common ground for compromise rather than butting heads together and name calling followed by a general break down of RP and voiding the world left and right.

A person would be able to fight one way with this person but then spar in a different manner with another based on what is agreed upon commencement.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 09:11:30 am by KayentaMoenkopi »
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UettoSenju

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2013, 05:07:53 pm »

There are already zoning guidelines aren't there? People still don't follow them and want even if you do make a more evolved form of these guidelines. I don't believe it is because t want to break the rules but rather by mistake do most of the time. Plus people tend to interpret jutsu a lot of time or because of wording their post change as a whole.  Guidelines are good but I don't think they will solve the problems at hand.

If this was an ideal situation everyone would just talk these things out and reach an agreement then proceed to rp but sadly it isn't. SL is no different than RL when it comes to matters of people not understanding each other, that is why we have authorities in RL to keep things in line and such.

I strongly feel that SL also has to have authority figures that people have to listen to. It is not a bad thing, everywhere in life there is someone over you usually you have to learn to deal and respect that authority.

Even if we did somehow get everyone to bring their problems to the forum and allow everyone to weigh in on it that would only create more fighting and arguing in the end I believe.

So why not vote in some authority figures to monitor zones, rp fights, biju matches, ect.? There already are these figures in Mods & GM but like I said they are limited and have lives. You can't ask them to always be there 24/7 to watch over things so increase the number of people in a group like this would help, 5-6 people should do in my opinion.

I have just noted a rise in arguments lately. It may be because I have been getting asked more and more to weigh in on stuff though.
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sploofmoof

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2013, 08:24:03 pm »

Eh, I do not think this is the greatest idea.  From what I can tell, two people in an argument about RP agree on who to ask about their RP.  I don't like the idea of a set group of people because this takes away the freedom of choice the players have to pick their own judge. 

Let's say (hypothetically of course) I don't like any of the 5 official judges?  What if I consider them all users of jutsu I myself would void and I think their opinions are not neutral enough to be my judge?  So now I'm stuck with these guys as the judge for my RP?  I think at current there are only a few people that get called in to solve an argument anyway except in a few cases and some other person is called.  I say just let it continue this way, because I guarantee that even with a set 5 judges the arguments won't subside any more than they are currently, we'll just get new ones about 'I didn't pick this guy to judge me? Who the hell is he to decide?"'


As a side note (perhaps a bit off topic so feel free to ignore this if you want) I feel that everything that has become 'official' in SL has become a large source of drama instead of a real fix.  We wanted to implement the Bijuu (where before they were not allowed at all) and have an official list of who had them so random (mostly academy students that people just ignored anyway) people wouldn't be claiming to have them.  Now look, we have Bijuu fights that 99% of the time end up in OOC arguments, take days to WEEKS to settle simple posts.

I get wanting to establish an order to quell the chaos but I don't think this is a good way to go about doing that.
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KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2013, 09:36:48 pm »

People tend to disagree on what these guidelines are and I for one could not point you to where they are even listed. This was why I suggested people set them up for their specific match as to what powers they call legit and how a person gains them...and so forth.

however, it is even basic RPing rules that are coming into debate that I find a bit confusing. Things that I consider basic others have never even heard of.

For instance, the issue of attacking on an entry post...
I think that basic zoning rules could be useful to somewhat bring us all back into some sort of agreement when entering the zones.

Or the canon ability to be a one hit kill attack, an unbeatable move or power, being used in RP at all or nerfed in some way. For by definition that is god modding, even if it is per the manga. Not everything translates properly to an RP setting or to what is generally considered fair play.

I know a lot of people who say the only solution to this problem is to go RP some where else. They feel that SL has fallen too low to be fixed. Although it is at times depressing to see how far things have degraded, I am not one of those who feels RP on SL is a lost cause.

I think self moderation is the best way to go. The fewer the rules the better. But I also feel that some baseline needs to be established. Especially with regards to behavior. I am serious about this Unsportsmanlike behavior issue.
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Shadow

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2013, 10:44:53 pm »

I didn't read any of the posts above, no offense to anyone. Call me arrogant if you want to. Truth is with this idea, I am. Councils never work, never will. What do councils usually have? 5-7 retired rp'ers who do just as much fighting as the players that asked them to help sort out a situation. Then if someone doesn't agree with one council member yet ALL the other council members agree that one person will get kicked by everyone. I've seen it happen and it's not at all justified.

It's a paradox;

You try to get all the same minded people on the council: It's biased.
You try to get different minded people on the council: They fight too much.

It NEVER works.
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Camel

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2013, 12:29:49 am »

I didn't read any of the posts above, no offense to anyone. Call me arrogant if you want to. Truth is with this idea, I am. Councils never work, never will. What do councils usually have? 5-7 retired rp'ers who do just as much fighting as the players that asked them to help sort out a situation. Then if someone doesn't agree with one council member yet ALL the other council members agree that one person will get kicked by everyone. I've seen it happen and it's not at all justified.

It's a paradox;

You try to get all the same minded people on the council: It's biased.
You try to get different minded people on the council: They fight too much.

It NEVER works.


Pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.   :oops:

Edit: Moving this topic to it's proper board.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 12:30:33 am by Camel »
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UettoSenju

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2013, 03:32:49 am »

The idea wasn't to form an actual council, I just couldn't think of anything else to type at the time. It was to just have a few people appointed to watching over fight based rp that could weigh in on things so that the limited amount of GM we have wouldn't be so burdened.

I figured no one would like the idea for the simple reason no one likes to listen to an form of authority... that's the way I see it.

I just though having these people around to comment on stuff would be better then three pages of OOC trolling by others.... which should land everyone who does such a 3 day ban in my opinion.

It could also be the fact that I hardly ever have an OOC fight over rp that I can't solve by simply proving my point through the manga and anime. Plus I am one to compromise, usually. So perhaps I am naive about this whole thing.

Hell who knows maybe it is just the forum based rper coming out in me that likes the idea of there being people that rule over things. Truly SL has moderators that you have to listen to (I believe) so I see zoning moderators, or whatever you want to call them, being no different.

It was just an idea in order to get thoughts flowing about the problems with arguing that happen so often, no matter how stupid it may be or sound.
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sploofmoof

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2013, 05:23:54 am »

Eh.  'Group of people to comment on fight based RP' and 'Council' are synonymous here I believe.  OOC arguments are going to happen regardless (as well as random people adding their two cents) of who is judging. 

Like I said before, people ask for outside help from Moderators or friends they trust already.  This....'group' of judges can really ONLY cause more problems in my opinion.

If you really want a way to stop OOC fighting and whatnot the people need to change their attitudes about RP.  In my opinion it's not a matter of a lack of input on fights (there are plenty of people around, even if not mods who fighters ask to weigh in), but the fighters refusing to compromise with one another in the first place.
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Eric

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2013, 12:23:23 am »

The better idea that needs to be put forth is an investigative team for why people do not want to compromise with each other! I am not gonna lie, in a RP fight, I can be pretty dang stubborn and hardcore mode. In a regular zone fight I"m more meh, but nevertheless, I don't think many people just 'zone' anymore. Something is almost always on the line.

There hasn't been a shinobi war in awhile. I didn't really get why till I sat down and thought as I read over these posts. A real war has dead people. Is your character going to be among them...?

Another potential reason all has to do with perspective. The 'council' or 'assembly' or 'group' isn't a bad idea from someone who has enough custom techniques to at least get onto Rares' roster (pun/joke intended) of creative jutsu makers.

From a different perspective, the very notion is an absolute try-hard by the hardcore RPers on this site. Look what happened when SLS went up; people were on the rampage, screaming and shouting that it was the bane of all SL existance. In truth, it wasn't that bad, it just offered a place for a different group of RPers to well, RP, and was intended to incorporate a lot of SL RP.

One way or another, there is a reason people don't want to compromise. Maybe they're arrogant or defiant, or maybe they are just trolls. Or maybe they don't want a dead character, or to be at the mercy of another player. If we are to form a 'zone' council of any sort, I think it should be a council to get the bottom of why the OOC bickering is as fervent as it is. I've already given some reasons why I would (and have) bickered OOcly over a RP/zone fight.
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UettoSenju

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2013, 02:53:47 am »

Simply thing is this is not a ideal situation were everyone would get along and not argue. People are not gonna change and start compromising. You can hope for it or wish for it all you want but it will not happen.

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Kage

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2013, 06:54:35 am »

Why not have some Community Zone Rules instead? You know, like certain rulings and things that are pretty concrete in zoning, which can be debated and decided upon by the community instead.
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KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2013, 02:05:18 am »

Why not have some Community Zone Rules instead? You know, like certain rulings and things that are pretty concrete in zoning, which can be debated and decided upon by the community instead.
I believe that in the posts that were not read but summarily dismissed as something that is not going to work, that idea was put forth?

I think Eric that the reason people fight OOC is lack of manners and respect for each other.

But general rules would be a good thing. In baseball its 3 strikes you're out. No one fights over that. It's an established and accepted rule of game play. I don't think we have to knit pick every little thing, but a basic framework couldn't hurt.

I don't know. I know I have never seen this sort of behavior anywhere else in my 13 years of online gaming in RP forums save here on SL/SLS. Is there something wrong with Naruto fans? Or is it rather a lack of moderation for unruly behavior that has been the breakdown here?

Who knows?

For my part I shall RP with people when and where I can and try to avoid those who are hateful. I know that too much regulation is the death of creativity.
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UettoSenju

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2013, 06:48:41 am »

I don't know. I know I have never seen this sort of behavior anywhere else in my 13 years of online gaming in RP forums save here on SL/SLS. Is there something wrong with Naruto fans? Or is it rather a lack of moderation for unruly behavior that has been the breakdown here?

I don't think it is so much Naruto fans but rather the fact that forums tend to be more strict and ran with high authority. You actually have people moding the rp saying what is legit and not. Of course OOC fights still happen and people complain but it is usually done in the C-Box and bans are passed out rather quickly for those who keep at it.

At least that is how it use to go when I played/moded/administrated/co-founded Naruto Based forums. (never did found my own just always helped other people for some reason... been out of that for awhile now though.) 

The thing about SL is that the rp is allowed more freedom and people tend to take advantage of that by forming these attitudes. I am not knocking SL... hell it is the only rp site I have ever stayed loyal to so must be doing something right.... but it is just fact in my opinion.

That's why I thought having some officials would be cool. Like I said it was probably just my forum based rp merging out. 
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Luka

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Re: Zone Council Idea
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2013, 02:12:04 am »

Here's my thoughts on the matter, for what they're worth. I've said it before, the differing opinions on how things should work is the problem. Sometimes there's a right answer, other times, it hasn't been said one way or the other  from an 'official source'

Example: There was a thread about how much Senjutsu chakra a person can absorb safely. Initially, lots of people were discussing mathematical formulas for how to determine it; obviously they say there's a set percentage to be.
Me, personally, I believe in differentiating between Senjutsu chakra and Nature Energy. I say that Senjutsu chakra doesn't have the dangers inherent that Nature energy does. I have evidence for why I feel so but, at the same time, that someone could have a differing opinion is perfectly reasonable.

So, Hunter Nin Kakashi is fighting Mizukage Terumi. She uses a Senjutsu Lava Waterfall to which Kakashi absorbs it with his Rinnegan's Preta Path.

Judge A says that Kakashi is turning into stone
Judge B says that his is not turning into stone. Disparity between judges. But usually, only one judge decides and what they say goes.

Different scenario:
Kakashi uses his sharingan to copy the lava waterfall and make his own.
Judge A says ok, it's allowed.
On judges ruling, it's legit. That is all it takes, despite the fact that, since season 1, 'Sharingan can't copy Kekkei Genkai'. It's stated in black and white, but a judge's misguided opinion supercedes canon basis. I've seen it happen before.

Which brings me to the point of my long winded explanation; what really is legit? With so many differing ideas about how things should work, everyone thinks their way is the right way. Obviously, that can't be true but no one ever stops to consider that they might be incorrect. Thus, 'judging' is never going to have any kind of legitimacy. Even with a group of elected officials, there will always be things judge A allows and judge B does not.
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