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Author Topic: Naruto 640  (Read 7623 times)

Eric

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Naruto 640
« on: July 24, 2013, 05:51:50 PM »

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/640/2

Kakashi better hurry up and stop fapping in that alternate dimension, cause crap just got real.

*edit: Thunder god Technique definitely requires a handseal, I got no doubt in my mind now.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 05:55:29 PM by Eric »
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Akasaka Rakudo

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2013, 06:36:42 PM »

Even though we've seen it used multiple times without one. >>
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Kage

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2013, 07:14:07 PM »

Kishimoto retcons again. It does require a hand seal. Remember how the Sharingan was supposedly an off-shoot of the Byakugan? That got blown out of the water pretty quickly with all these eye hacks and evolving into the Rinnegan.

What I liked about this chapter though, is it shows the internal struggle of a Jinchuuriki attempting to use their Bijuu's power without communing or training with it. What I don't like, is how Obito suddenly went Sage of Six Paths. He technically is the Second Sage of Six Paths now, with the Rinnegan and Juubi.
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Akasaka Rakudo

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2013, 07:34:34 PM »

Unless someone can prove why he was seen using a hand sign and prove that from now on he needs to use a hand sign to Hiraishin (even though he did it later this same chapter with no hand signs, since he had one of his arms cut off.) then that's really presumptuous.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 07:36:18 PM by Akasaka Rakudo »
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Shadow

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2013, 08:01:49 PM »

Unless it shows that from now on it needs hand signs, it isn't true.
We have various situations from both the manga and anime showing Minato never using a single kata for it. And now the second he uses a hand sign once you jump on it and claim it needs signs. I do remember a very good showing of him using it without hand signs when he first fought Madara and rasengan'ed his ass into the ground.
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Eric

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2013, 08:24:50 PM »

It is a one handed seal. Obviously he can perform the technique with only one hand, meaning that he can do it with either hand.

Additionally, remember how Itachi could supposedly perform various ninjutsu techniques without handsigns? That was later shown to not be entirely true, as it was his sheer speed that made it seem like that. Such seems to be the same for Minato, one of if not the fastest shinobi that ever lived (especially in terms of natural reflexes).

Even the 2nd Hokage used a handsign to perform hiriashin when he was first shown using it. The evidence is right before us folks. I had before suspicions of it, but now there is irrevocable proof that the flying thunder god not only uses a handseal to activate it, but requires it in order to use it.

Why, when Sasuke and Naruto were about to get vaporized, would Minato bother with a handseal if he could use the technique without it? After all, thought is faster than movement, so why would he risk the life of Naruto and Sasuke just for the hell of it?

Kishimoto has probably intended to reflect this since the Minato vs Obito fight during the 9-tails attack, as he was seen using a hand seal during one of his trade-offs with Obito. When you go slow-motion with the technique, you can see the usage of a handseal seems to be what Kishi is getting at. When you fast forward to regular time, the usage of one isn't noticed.
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Akasaka Rakudo

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2013, 09:02:51 PM »

It is a one handed seal. Obviously he can perform the technique with only one hand, meaning that he can do it with either hand.

Additionally, remember how Itachi could supposedly perform various ninjutsu techniques without handsigns? That was later shown to not be entirely true, as it was his sheer speed that made it seem like that. Such seems to be the same for Minato, one of if not the fastest shinobi that ever lived (especially in terms of natural reflexes).

Even the 2nd Hokage used a handsign to perform hiriashin when he was first shown using it. The evidence is right before us folks. I had before suspicions of it, but now there is irrevocable proof that the flying thunder god not only uses a handseal to activate it, but requires it in order to use it.

Why, when Sasuke and Naruto were about to get vaporized, would Minato bother with a handseal if he could use the technique without it? After all, thought is faster than movement, so why would he risk the life of Naruto and Sasuke just for the hell of it?

Kishimoto has probably intended to reflect this since the Minato vs Obito fight during the 9-tails attack, as he was seen using a hand seal during one of his trade-offs with Obito. When you go slow-motion with the technique, you can see the usage of a handseal seems to be what Kishi is getting at. When you fast forward to regular time, the usage of one isn't noticed.

He Hiraishined away the one time when A's punch was a centimeter from his face. If he can make Kata that fast he wouldn't need Hiraishin in the first place. And here is Tobirama using it with both hands on his sword
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/624/12
If your logic is every time Hiraishin has been used they just don't show the hand sign then there is no way to argue since that can't be proved. If it did require a hand sign and the movement is instantaneous he would then also always reappear still making a kata with one of his hands, which is also not the case.

Minato using it while holding Kushina with both hands and reappearing still holding her with both hands which you can see are not making kata.
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/501/14
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 09:28:53 PM by Akasaka Rakudo »
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Sabumaru

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2013, 09:41:21 PM »

I hope Naruto and Sasgay die.
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Eric

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2013, 11:43:41 PM »

If you can make one kata as fast as it took A to cross that distance, then you would still need hiraishin in order to keep from getting punched, as A would have been able to notice any minor change in movement and could have adjusted himself to it.

Tobirama using it while holding both hands are on the sword is questionable evidence. All we are shown is him slashing and using the technique; we have no idea where the marker or chakra of his was located at in order for him to perform the flying thunder god technique in the first place.

While this next part is more theory than hard manga evidence, he could have formed the kata even still while holding the sword, using one hand to hold the sword and the other to make the kata. Then, when he warped, the other hand is put onto the sword and the user slashes in a single fluid movement that would be very much possible for a kenjutsu expert.

And the speed of making a one handed kata, and then moving it to another location of choice can be potentially quite high, especially in the case of Minato. While that is the best explanation that I can give for him holding Kushina with both hands, I still persist. Why suddenly does is he shown using handsigns whenever he uses the technique as of the recent two chapters in particular?

I find no evidence granted that convinces me otherwise that hiraishin does not, if not since introduction but since these latest chapters, require a handsign to perform.

Several examples of him using a hand seal in the latest two chapters:

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/639/5

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/639/15

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/639/16

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/639/17

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/640/3

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/640/4 [Him re-appearing after the previous example]

http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/640/16 [This one is a bit ambigious imo, since it could go either way depending on how you look at it]

I think got all of the instances in which he used Hiraishin in the latest chapters, except for that second to last one where only his head was shown before it cut away to him charging and obito's internal struggle.

*edit: The bottom line is, at least in the majority of them, is very clearly seen using a handsign to activate the technique. If he had the option to use it without a handsign, then why wouldn't he use it?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 11:44:51 PM by Eric »
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Akasaka Rakudo

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2013, 12:20:50 AM »

Your whole argument is questionable evidence. Maybe using a kata allows him to teleport more precisely, or maybe he needs to focus his chakra more to do it because of his infinite chakra Edo Tensei state or his Kyuubi Chakra Mode. I'd like to see evidence that shows that isn't exactly what he is doing. Until it is stated WHY he is making a kata now there is no call for us to do anything, no one here is an Edo Tensei 9 Tails Jinchuriki.

No where has it stated he HAS to make a kata, you are just assuming so. Since you are saying every other instance of Hiraishin where it clearly shows him not making kata is in fact him making kata and it just isn't bothered to be drawn or acknowledged in anyway there is no argument here. You are using what doesn't exist to support your argument and there is no way to confirm or deny that. The Kushina one shows him start to finish, not making kata. As I said before if the movment is instantaneous he would be making a kata when he appears. In the one with Kushina it shows him appearing, not dropping down like several others do and he is NOT, making a kata. I too question why he is doing it now but we won't know until we are told.
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Eric

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2013, 12:44:48 AM »

That whole first paragraph is assumption and questionable backing. XP

Nowhere has it stated that he uses it without handseals either. I refuse to acknowledge anyone's usage of hiraishin without hand seals at this point, as to me, it is clear as day that it does require a hand seal. It has been presented that he uses hand seals with the jutsu that he has mastered (how much total chakra or what kind of chakra he has doesn't affect his usage of jutsu negatively, as there are no examples of well-controlled chakra having a negative impact on jutsu usage).

Nowhere has it stated that he doesn't have to make a kata, it has been the assumption based on the way it has been drawn through much of the series. We finally see the handsign associated and it is downgraded as what... a convenience? A plot device? A mistake in drawing?

Your argument is not any better than mine.
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Akasaka Rakudo

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2013, 12:56:49 AM »

That whole first paragraph is assumption and questionable backing. XP

Nowhere has it stated that he uses it without handseals either. I refuse to acknowledge anyone's usage of hiraishin without hand seals at this point, as to me, it is clear as day that it does require a hand seal. It has been presented that he uses hand seals with the jutsu that he has mastered (how much total chakra or what kind of chakra he has doesn't affect his usage of jutsu negatively, as there are no examples of well-controlled chakra having a negative impact on jutsu usage).

Nowhere has it stated that he doesn't have to make a kata, it has been the assumption based on the way it has been drawn through much of the series. We finally see the handsign associated and it is downgraded as what... a convenience? A plot device? A mistake in drawing?

Your argument is not any better than mine.

Yes my argument of showing you manga pages where he uses it without kata is in no way better then your argument where you apparently say they just never bothered to draw it before. In that case Sasuke is going to be revealed as a women, they just never bothered to draw the boobs before.

Camel please lock this topic or I'm going to freakin explode.
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Eric

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2013, 01:00:59 AM »

I showed clear manga examples where he used a kata, just as much as you showed examples where it seemed he did not. Definitive as either of them are, my argument is no less valid than yours that hand seals are required to perform the technique, whether it be a new invention or an old missed point.
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Akasaka Rakudo

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2013, 04:11:02 AM »

I showed clear manga examples where he used a kata, just as much as you showed examples where it seemed he did not. Definitive as either of them are, my argument is no less valid than yours that hand seals are required to perform the technique, whether it be a new invention or an old missed point.

Yeah I know, I was there, I read the chapter. -_- I'm saying to wait for them to explain why he is doing kata now when he wasn't before instead of saying you're going to void people who use it without kata. Maybe we never will get an explanation but all we know right now is that it has been done with and without kata.
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Raifudo Oppa

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Re: Naruto 640
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2013, 05:38:02 AM »

No hand seals until explain why the change.

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