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[Akasaka Rakudo]

No hand seals until explain why the change.

/Thread

Thank you.

[Eric]

Meh, I disagree with the ruling, but what am I going to do, storm the gates of Kishi's palace and demand he make an explanation?

I still hold firm on my belief on the matter.

[Mei]

No hand seals until explain why the change.

/Thread

Yeah, as if Kishi is going to explain that during the war plot. >.>
We MIGHT get an "explanation" in the next data-book though, whenever that will be.
However, this may be an example of retroactive continuity aka retcon, which is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work. >.>

So in other words, Hiraishin no Jutsu MAY have been done without hand-seals in earlier chapters, but NOW has to perform a hand-seal to activate it.

This page is proof enough: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/639/5

Thinking logically now:

Correct me if I am wrong but the only ninjutsu we have seen that does not require hand-seal(s) is rasengan, right? However even rasengan requires the focus/gathering of chakra in order to be performed.

In the case of Hiraishin no Jutsu, have you seen a jutsu that can be activated by a mere thought? Jutsu are performed via chakra, not thought. After all, it would be an equivalent of activating a ninja scroll by simply thinking about it. >.>

Now, it would make sense that Minato may have mastered the technique to the point that he may not need a hand-seal but you cant say that this technique can be performed without at least one hand-seal in the very beginning of its creation. That's highly unlikely.

But then again, here's another thought. If this can be performed without any hand-seals, why does Minato only has 1 kunai in hand? Has there been a page where he's holding two kunai, one in each hand while performing the technique? Mmmm.... >.>

I originally didnt care much about the Hiraishin no Jutsu because there are like (correct me if I am wrong) four "official" users of the technique and I only seen 1 person used it in an offensive matter instead of another shunshin option to use. I am just posting my thoughts on the matter.

[Akasaka Rakudo]

Or it might just as easily NOT be a retcon. There is no explanation for why h'es doing it. We might as well flip a coin to decide if we should change the rules on how it is used in rp. This topic should be locked honestly if people are going to go on about this. >> By the way there are many jutsu that don't use kata, every single variation of Chidori/Raikiri used by Kakashi and Sasuke in Shippuden come to mind.

[Mei]

Or it might just as easily NOT be a retcon. There is no explanation for why h'es doing it. We might as well flip a coin to decide if we should change the rules on how it is used in rp. This topic should be locked honestly if people are going to go on about this. >> By the way there are many jutsu that don't use kata, every single variation of Chidori/Raikiri used by Kakashi and Sasuke in Shippuden come to mind.

Lol? This is when we first see Raikiri and Chidori. No surprised there shown with the use of hand-seals.
1. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-35-3/naruto/chapter-30.html
2. http://www.mangapanda.com/93-118-5/naruto/chapter-113.html

Shippuuden is almost a three year time-skip so of course Sasuke and Kakashi would have mastered the jutsu to the point where they wont need the use of hand-seals. All your post did was just proved my point. >.>

Also, I dont know why you request this thread to be locked so badly. We're having a discussion without cursing or name-calling. Are you afraid that more people will come in here and start agreeing with me?

Also, Naruto has experienced retcon before.

For example: Shukaku was first mentioned as a living spirit of a Suna priest originally sealed inside a tea kettle before it was mentioned as the one-tailed chakra beast.

http://www.mangapanda.com/93-102-9/naruto/chapter-97.html

[Akasaka Rakudo]

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chidori_Current
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chidori_Senbon
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chidori_Sharp_Spear
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Orochimaru-Style_Body_Replacement_Technique
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Binding_Snake_Glare_Spell
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_of_Kusanagi:_Chidori_Katana
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kirin

Those are all jutsu that don't require kata and that is just from Sasuke. If we go from Sasuke I don't think Suigetsu or Jugo ever used a kata to do anything. There is no point in the discussion because we do not have any answers. We can stand here going "It's a retcon, it's not, it is, it's not." for a month but it doesn't matter till we are given more information. Like I mentioned before, how do we know use of a kata doesn't just allow him to teleport more precisely? We don't, we know nothing about it other then the fact that it happened.

[Sabumaru]

Anyone have any guesses as to what Madara's trump card is?

[Mei]

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chidori_Current
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chidori_Senbon
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chidori_Sharp_Spear
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Orochimaru-Style_Body_Replacement_Technique
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Binding_Snake_Glare_Spell
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sword_of_Kusanagi:_Chidori_Katana
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kirin

Those are all jutsu that don't require kata and that is just from Sasuke. If we go from Sasuke I don't think Suigetsu or Jugo ever used a kata to do anything. There is no point in the discussion because we do not have any answers. We can stand here going "It's a retcon, it's not, it is, it's not." for a month but it doesn't matter till we are given more information. Like I mentioned before, how do we know use of a kata doesn't just allow him to teleport more precisely? We don't, we know nothing about it other then the fact that it happened.

- All the chidori-related jutsus you listed are applications of Chidori, which I already mentioned prior so those examples dont even apply. >.>
- Orochimaru's Body Replacement is just a result of body experimentation. >.>
- Bind Snake Glare Spell is an application of the summoning technique where we have seen been used with hand-seals. Naturally over time it can be done by a simple slam of the hand (with blood of course) and we only see the aftermath of the jutsu where the focus wasnt on Sasuke so we dont know what he did prior to activation.
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-356-12/naruto/chapter-351.html
- Kirin:

• A. The chidori argument once again: Clearly this is a jutsu we have seen AFTER Sasuke mastered it.
• B. Even if there wasnt any hand-seals to begin with, the jutsu still required hand movement. This goes back to the "you cant activate a jutsu by mere thought" argument.
  http://www.mangapanda.com/93-396-8/naruto/chapter-391.html

However after further thought about Hiraishin no Jutsu, the jutsu itself may as well be voided. We have only seen KAGES use this technique. Not even the ELITE bodyguards of Konoha are able to perform it by themselves.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Hokage_Guard_Platoon
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/562/12

Think about that. These are elite bodyguards to the Hokage. These are not weak ninjas.
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-190-4/naruto/chapter-185.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-190-6/naruto/chapter-185.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-191-2/naruto/chapter-186.html

EDIT: The first link was to show you that it was 4v2, yet Sound Four still needed to go into CS2 to defeat them. >.>

In addition:
- Genma is known for taking part in difficult missions because of his skills.
- Raidō is known throughout Konoha as a prominent assassin.
Both facts supported by Naruto databooks.

These are testaments to their strength and the difficulty level in learning Hiraishin no Jutsu.

Minato is on another league of his own, granted he was the 4th Hokage.
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-372-11/naruto/chapter-367.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-163-5/naruto/chapter-158.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/541/8

So honestly, for those who are using the Hiraishin no Jutsu, can you HONESTLY compare your character to a man like Minato. Behind Madara and Hashirama, Minato is most likely the 3rd strongest shinobi in Naruto....

[Akasaka Rakudo]

Yes literally anyone could be as strong as Minato, correct me if I am wrong but almost all the people with Hiraishin on SL actually are Kage in rp. Madara/Hashirama level is common for full reset people. And Oro's techniques are able to be done because of experimentation but they still require the manipulation of chakra.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Soft_Physique_Modification
"The user dislocates their joints then controls their softened body with chakra, allowing them to stretch and twist any part of their body at any angle, elongating and even coiling around their opponent."
People put chaka in their feet without hand signs to walk on walls. Are you seriously arguing that everything requires hand signs? Gaara's sand shield comes to mind, he literally stands there un-moving and the sand protects him.

[Kage]

Well I say to make Hiraishin required to use a single one-handed seal. It's a good way to lightly nerf it, while still making it a pretty powerful technique.

Think of it this way too: If someone is legitimately unable to move (either by the binding of their hands, arms, legs, feet, or even their complete dismemberment), all they would have to do is Hiraishin themselves away just by thinking or willing it. And then the whole point of even disabling them to that extent would become moot, since they would be whoever but them knows and would pull something out of their butt like saying "They had a Hiraishin marking at their local hospital" or "They had a Hiraishin seal that lead directly to their operating table in their medically-advanced secret lair."

Seriously guys, some of the things that have been done with it and can be done with it is just silly. Sometimes I think there should be a limit to the number of Hiraishin seals the user should be able to place. They should probably be mentioned or listed out somewhere in their bio.

[Akasaka Rakudo]

Well I say to make Hiraishin required to use a single one-handed seal. It's a good way to lightly nerf it, while still making it a pretty powerful technique.

Think of it this way too: If someone is legitimately unable to move (either by the binding of their hands, arms, legs, feet, or even their complete dismemberment), all they would have to do is Hiraishin themselves away just by thinking or willing it. And then the whole point of even disabling them to that extent would become moot, since they would be whoever but them knows and would pull something out of their butt like saying "They had a Hiraishin marking at their local hospital" or "They had a Hiraishin seal that lead directly to their operating table in their medically-advanced secret lair."

Seriously guys, some of the things that have been done with it and can be done with it is just silly. Sometimes I think there should be a limit to the number of Hiraishin seals the user should be able to place. They should probably be mentioned or listed out somewhere in their bio.

*Listens to the man literally claiming to be Izanagi reborn as a man talk about limits that need to be placed*

[Mei]

Yes literally anyone could be as strong as Minato, correct me if I am wrong but almost all the people with Hiraishin on SL actually are Kage in rp. Madara/Hashirama level is common for full reset people. And Oro's techniques are able to be done because of experimentation but they still require the manipulation of chakra.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Soft_Physique_Modification
People put chaka in their feet without hand signs to walk on walls. Are you seriously arguing that everything requires hand signs? Gaara's sand shield comes to mind, he literally stands there un-moving and the sand protects him.

Okay...but I am talking in the realm of normal human beings, not those with experimented bodies. >.>

I dont know the current Kage list or the official users of Hiraishin no Jutsu so I cant comment on that.

Tree-Climbing: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-23-6/naruto/chapter-18.html
Water-walking: http://www.mangapanda.com/93-96-10/naruto/chapter-91.html

My point, which I have been saying in all my posts thus far, is that ninjutsu requires hand-seals and that people who have mastered the technique may require only 1 or no hand-seal to perform it, such as summoning tech, some basic (general skill) C, D, E jutsus, etc.

Well I say to make Hiraishin required to use a single one-handed seal. It's a good way to lightly nerf it, while still making it a pretty powerful technique...

Exactly. What is a single one-handed seal to you? We have used a single one-handed seal for simple things in the past, so what would be the problem if we decided to implement it on the usage of Hiraishin no jutsu?

[Akasaka Rakudo]

For one I think people that don't have Hiraishin and never will are going to not really care about it getting nerfed and will probably just nerf it if they could on the off chance they ever have to fight it. For the last time, how hard is this? There is no evidence as to why he is using kata now. My example is that I am saying when he uses a kata he can teleport more precisely. That has exactly as much evidence as you guys claiming it is a ret-con and now always requires kata (no evidence at all, if you haven't been keeping up).

I like how I just solidly proved you wrong and you ignored it. What does that guy being changed so he can dislocate all his bones have to do with his ability to do jutsu? If you want an example of things you can just will to happen I can't think of a better example than Raiton no Yoroi... and anything doujutsu based... and the 8 Gates... and the Shikotsumyaku.

[Mei]

For one I think people that don't have Hiraishin and never will are going to not really care about it getting nerfed and will probably just nerf it if they could on the off chance they ever have to fight it. For the last time, how hard is this? There is no evidence as to why he is using kata now. My example is that I am saying when he uses a kata he can teleport more precisely. That has exactly as much evidence as you guys claiming it is a ret-con and now always requires kata (no evidence at all, if you haven't been keeping up).

I like how I just solidly proved you wrong and you ignored it. What does that guy being changed so he can dislocate all his bones have to do with his ability to do jutsu? If you want an example of things you can just will to happen I can't think of a better example than Raiton no Yoroi... and anything doujutsu based... and the 8 Gates... and the Shikotsumyaku.

Proved me wrong in what? I can simply use the same argument that once again I have been mentioning in ALL posts which you seem to be ignoring thus far so I'll say it one more time but maybe I'll put it in bold so you can see it better...

My point is that ninjutsu requires hand-seal(s) and that people who have mastered the technique may require only 1 or no hand-seal to perform it.

Please stop making me repeat myself....

Doujutsu isnt ninjutsu but I'm sure there are pages that shown Itachi and Katashi using a hand-seal to activate their MS techniques. 8 gates? Would anyone consider that a ninjutsu? Because personally I would not call it such. Shikotsumyaku? Okay but how about Haku's Demonic Mirrors that required hand-seals.  For all your "examples", I can apply back to my original point which was the text in bold above. But I like how you're mentioning all those advanced/unique ninjutsus instead of the normal ones with the exception of Raiton no Yoroi. >.>

"Ninjutsu, most of the time, relies on chakra and hand seals to be effective. The hands are put in sequential positions that moulds and manipulates chakra in the necessary manner to perform a technique. This is not always needed, however, and some techniques become second nature to experienced ninja, after which they can perform them at will."
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Ninjutsu


Here's an Intro to Jutsu.
http://leafninja.com/jutsu.php

[Akasaka Rakudo]

Oh ok so every instance of someone doing a ninjutsu technique without hand signs means they are a master of those jutsu. Temari during the Chunin Exams is a Fuuton Master because she can just swing her fan and make wind jutsu.

How are Doujutsu techniques not ninjutsu?
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Amaterasu
That's classified as a Doujutsu based Ninjutsu. Oh and even if Kakashi and Itachi did use hand seals before they don't now, so by your logic that is a retcon and doujutsu based ninjutsu dont require kata now. By the same logic being used for Hiraishin I say Chidori and Raikiri have been retconned and no longer require kata to use. If Minato using Hiraishin with kata negates his usage without it then I say Kakashi and Sasuke using Chidori without kata negate them ever doing it with kata.

This argument is over though, your logic is flawless, every single instance of kataless ninjutsu can be explained away by saying they are a master and anything from Doujutsu to Kinjutsu, to Body Alteration don't count as Ninjutsu according to you.  Congratulations, you are the Master Debater.

This was just the dumbest thing.