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Author Topic: Bijuu Rules Question  (Read 19561 times)

Bocchiere

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2014, 05:51:37 AM »

To the death is what I meany, yes. I almost always insist on mine being to the death.

4 times a year sounds solid to me as well as inheriting the list. I'm sure we could easily make a wiki page for the challenger ques.
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Sabumaru

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2014, 06:06:37 AM »

To the death is what I meany, yes. I almost always insist on mine being to the death.

4 times a year sounds solid to me as well as inheriting the list. I'm sure we could easily make a wiki page for the challenger ques.

A lot more people use the Wikia than the forum too.
I like this, and I'm for it.
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Sabumaru

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2014, 06:53:00 AM »

◾Jinchūriki have an obligation to be active, and are stripped of their bijū if they cannot get online and do their round (1 post in public a fortnight), regardless of the reason. The leader of their clan will inherit the bijū; if the jinchūriki wasn't in a clan, then a tournament/event can be arranged to determine a suitable host.

HOWEVER...one post every two week? shoot me now. No less than one a week please? if you can't manage that then you are not able to meet the demands of being a host. Perhaps you will get free time later on? well make a new challenge once you are free but let life go on for the rest of us.

◾Unless a jinchūriki has outstanding life force (from being either an Uzumaki, having Wood Release or from being downright immortal), they will die when stripped of their bijū. Else they will be left in a crippled state.

◾Tailed beasts must be sealed within a jinchuriki within a week of capture.

I highlighted in red that section because it's awesome.
Two weeks is a long time in SL. A ton of RP can happen in one day, let alone two weeks. Bijū are a great power, and if you know anything about Spiderman then you know what he would say comes with great power.
I also left in the other two rules I think should be kept. It's been repeatedly said in the manga and the anime that jinchūriki die after being de-bijū'd, so that should be a rule here, and the other rule keeps villages from sitting on cans with jinchūriki in them for months so that nobody can challenge them.
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Yūmei

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2014, 08:19:28 AM »

double posting here....


Perhaps Yumei can format a section on the tailed beast's page to include the challenge lists for each beast.

then once the OOC rules are confirmed they can be listed there to replace the RPing ones.

I believe it would be the easiest for hosts (who personally I believe have a responsibility to manage their own lists) to use the wiki's forum, as this way they'll be able to modify their top posts. I created a new board in the wiki forum, however I recommend creating a new topic by clicking on the "Start Discussion" button at the bottom of the Tailed Beasts page. I've created a sample thread here, although I'll leave it to the thread starters to format their lists however they like (so long as it's done sensibly).
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Bocchiere

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2014, 08:21:47 AM »

That all looks great to me.
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UettoSenju

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2014, 08:56:58 AM »

double posting here....


Perhaps Yumei can format a section on the tailed beast's page to include the challenge lists for each beast.

then once the OOC rules are confirmed they can be listed there to replace the RPing ones.

I believe it would be the easiest for hosts (who personally I believe have a responsibility to manage their own lists) to use the wiki's forum, as this way they'll be able to modify their top posts. I created a new board in the wiki forum, however I recommend creating a new topic by clicking on the "Start Discussion" button at the bottom of the Tailed Beasts page. I've created a sample thread here, although I'll leave it to the thread starters to format their lists however they like (so long as it's done sensibly).

What about people who hate using the wiki?

I'm just saying, it seems unfair to say that sense people don't like the forum they have to do it at the wiki when there are people who don;t sue the wiki as well. Why should one party be made to use what they don't like but the other not?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 08:58:27 AM by UettoSenju »
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Eric

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2014, 12:54:52 PM »

sounds good. so...

Is it to be the old list of rules as is or do edits need to be made?

I like these from the new list of rules too..

◾Jinchūriki have an obligation to be active, and are stripped of their bijū if they cannot get online and do their round (1 post in public a fortnight), regardless of the reason. The leader of their clan will inherit the bijū; if the jinchūriki wasn't in a clan, then a tournament/event can be arranged to determine a suitable host.

HOWEVER...one post every two week? shoot me now. No less than one a week please? if you can't manage that then you are not able to meet the demands of being a host. Perhaps you will get free time later on? well make a new challenge once you are free but let life go on for the rest of us.

I think these are nice too.

◾Unless a jinchūriki has outstanding life force (from being either an Uzumaki, having Wood Release or from being downright immortal), they will die when stripped of their bijū. Else they will be left in a crippled state.

◾Tailed beasts must be sealed within a jinchuriki within a week of capture.

Kirk made a point somewhere once that if this fight is challenge due to OOC match ups, then why rp the sealing at all? I think that aspect should be up to the host cause RP might be important to them. However...see it is timely.

Two weeks had been the limit out of reasonablness, we had agreed on that back then. One week seem to be cutting it a bit short, but considering that the biju fights are OOC anyways, I guess one week is not that shallow.

Dying when being stripped of the biju, even in an OOC challenge? Well shoot, no wonder someone would want the fight to be to the death, if you lose, you're very likely to die anyways, as even with outstanding life force you would eventually die anyways (maybe not as fast, but you would die yet still).

I actually vote that losing the challenge (or being stripped for whatever reason) does not kill the host automatically. It will decrease the incentive to hang onto the beast for dear life, at least in my opinion, which might reduce some nastiness that comes along with fighting for dear life. We have seen by now how even normally decent people get extremely on edge when their character's life is in mortal danger. At least this way, if life does get the better of you, you can more willingly hand off the beast without worrying about dying because you got too busy in RL.

Personally, I would rather keep my list either here on the forum or SLS, simply due to famaliarity. If required to use the wikia though, I would just attached it to the bottom of my character profile rather than creating a new thread on the forum, and then just link it both at the top of the profile and on my SL bio page.

And how about tailed beast must be sealed immediately upon victory? I mean, we are not talking about IC sealing here, I'm talking, you win, you become host after the last post. No wait time before you become host in order to delay the grace period, no RP even for sealing the beast. Just make the whole thing OOC and get it over with. That away, once you get out of the RP that you are in, you can get you tailed beast powers and be like, "I have been graced by my victory in so-so land, since the old host is dead you know you know."

People have to join the 21st century sometime.
What about the people who hate the internet?

They can just pm the old fashioned way and get info direct from the hosts I suppose. It seems reasonable to have a more efficient means of verifying publicly that a host even has a list of challengers by some means. As long as it isn't vandalized by tricksters it should be pretty reliable.



Folks who hate the internet would not be a factor here, because they wouldn't even be able to get onto SL.  ;) Just had to put that joke in there for relax factor before continuing.

If we are going to go with the wikia forum thing, why not just have the invitation be replies to the main post? Undeniable and convenient proof that indeed you challenged the host a certain number of times, and that their denial is evident to all that you were not added to the list. Whatever mod exists on there can notice shenanigans, but it's a suggestion.

Please remove "other hosts" and "onlookers" from those who may support the arguments of either side. One reliable (activity-wise) judge to rule the entire thing.

If god-modding occurs, the opposing party "May" object. If they don't object, then that is their business, and discussion may occur after that.

"Hosts are allowed to use thier tails" section seems like a subsection of "Rules" rather than a separate thing to discuss. But that's just me.

Since there is a challenger list, should waiting challengers get any sort of dibs on the tailed beast? I know it's abusable, but throwing that out there, as I don't like the idea of the clan/organization getting it anymore. It used to be cool, but then entire organizations/clans could be just as inactive or unable to host it. Toss it up to a tourney of the challengers would probably run smoother.

What does the "one round" of activity count for anymore, I have to ask? Before the host had to leave the village, but now, is it just some post in public in order to prove that they are around? That's the gist I am getting, but just want to clarify for reference.

The last thing we have to do before these rules go into effect is to gather the jinchs (half of them being Akatsuki) and have them either agree to the rules or at least put in their input on how to change it to better fill the role. Incomplete biju challenge list from those who didn't even participate in the debate are going to be a problem if this is not brought 'round the table.
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Warren

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2014, 09:37:31 PM »

People already know how much I despise a great majority of the rules, so for the sake of staying civil I'll be brief.

If you want OOC challenges, then use them for cases like SabuxHono, and leave it at that. Stuff like that are the only reasons these discussions ever pop up, so people shouldn't try use them as an excuse to force more rules on others.
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Bocchiere

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2014, 12:10:35 AM »

People already know how much I despise a great majority of the rules, so for the sake of staying civil I'll be brief.

If you want OOC challenges, then use them for cases like SabuxHono, and leave it at that. Stuff like that are the only reasons these discussions ever pop up, so people shouldn't try use them as an excuse to force more rules on others.

It's not MORE rules it's just different rules. As I gave an example of almost every bijuu fight on the current rules has failed and wound up just being an old OOC bijju fight instead.
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Isaribi

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2014, 12:57:42 AM »

I agree that the new rules do not work, but I do not agree that the old rules work better.

I worked under both. I think the RP aspects of the current rules are nice; hunting Jinchuuriki is an important aspect of everything, assuming people actually do it correctly. I haven't seen too many people do it correctly;

For example, in-game knowledge acquisition. Quite a few instances in that "not success" KirixAkatsuki battle, on Akatsuki's end, which were definite meta-gaming. I'm talking to Sabu and Bocchiball's alt who assumed a cloud was for a certain technique and then used a technique to seal that specific technique away. Also for identifying me as the Three-Tailed Jinchuuriki when none of them would have known about it in-game.


I think if there is a rule change, it needs to keep the RP hunting aspect, but mix in the old rules to make it an easier process. The rules are in place to make it difficult for hosts, and for hunters--not easier for one and not the other.
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Bocchiere

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2014, 01:06:50 AM »

I agree that the new rules do not work, but I do not agree that the old rules work better.

I worked under both. I think the RP aspects of the current rules are nice; hunting Jinchuuriki is an important aspect of everything, assuming people actually do it correctly. I haven't seen too many people do it correctly;

For example, in-game knowledge acquisition. Quite a few instances in that "not success" KirixAkatsuki battle, on Akatsuki's end, which were definite meta-gaming. I'm talking to Sabu and Bocchiball's alt who assumed a cloud was for a certain technique and then used a technique to seal that specific technique away. Also for identifying me as the Three-Tailed Jinchuuriki when none of them would have known about it in-game.


I think if there is a rule change, it needs to keep the RP hunting aspect, but mix in the old rules to make it an easier process. The rules are in place to make it difficult for hosts, and for hunters--not easier for one and not the other.

You made a cloud in the air and Sabu attempted to use a water seal on it. >_> You claimed it wouldn't work because it was apparently a Raiton technique, even though a storm cloud made to shoot lightning bolts would still be made of water vapor. I don't know who claimed to know you were the three tails IC.

We could have it where you still challenge the people like the old rules but you need to discover they are Jinchuriki IC to challenge them?
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Eric

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2014, 04:16:54 AM »

I agree that metagaming is a problem. Though I certainly am not going to get bogged down in every instance of where it has occurred on SL, it is quite difficult to do things like use genjutsu and keep all the fan girls away from you due to reputation. We are a gossipy lot so it gets hard sometimes to remember what you are supposed to know and what you are not.

It would be nice to incorporate as much leniency and flexibility into the list so that reasonable and cooperative people can use them too.

How about a disclaimer....

ºDisclaimerº
The following OOC rules section of the list of quidelines for interactions between the denizens of SL are for use when said interactions breakdown and reasonable people turn into trolls. Otherwise IC hunting of hosts and verbal agreements between hunter and hunted should be the tradition employed.

I object. Define "trolls".

All seriousness on the table, the fewer people involved in the competition the better. The 1v1 system prevented meta-gaming (to an extent) involved in the "hunt" because it was an OOC fight. Sure, it determined things IC, but it was what it was. If folks hunt them down IC, then it is going to get a large amount of people involved, and frankly, the more people involved in a zone fight, the more likely it is to break down and devolve.

I deem it reasonable to call and be called out on every little thing in a biju match because my SL life is on the line. Verbal agreements are broken regularly, especially in zone fights. These kind of conflicts do not happen in a non-zone situation, or at least they very rarely do. I vote that the biju fights be contained to a small 1v1 fight. That away, if we have to deal with a crapstorm, it will be 2-3 involved parties being held up and haggled.

I agree that the new rules do not work, but I do not agree that the old rules work better.

I worked under both. I think the RP aspects of the current rules are nice; hunting Jinchuuriki is an important aspect of everything, assuming people actually do it correctly. I haven't seen too many people do it correctly;

For example, in-game knowledge acquisition. Quite a few instances in that "not success" KirixAkatsuki battle, on Akatsuki's end, which were definite meta-gaming. I'm talking to Sabu and Bocchiball's alt who assumed a cloud was for a certain technique and then used a technique to seal that specific technique away. Also for identifying me as the Three-Tailed Jinchuuriki when none of them would have known about it in-game.


I think if there is a rule change, it needs to keep the RP hunting aspect, but mix in the old rules to make it an easier process. The rules are in place to make it difficult for hosts, and for hunters--not easier for one and not the other.

That metagaming example, as I should have mentioned already, had little to do with the biju rules and more to do with zone/fight standards. Finding out there were jinchs in Kiri is the only metagame-able thing that had anything to do with the biju RP rules. 

Sabu and Hono, despite it being a largely two person thing, turned into something far greater than it needed to be. And that I blame on the parties involved stirring things up using outside media (plus the nature of the relationship between the two).

Fighting IC without fighting each other OOC is the real problem. It is not every single player of SL, but when it comes down to tailed beasts, most of the time, that is what it boils down to. No matter which set of rules we go to, at the end of the day, zone stuff like meta-gaming or god-modding is what is going to stir up the most hubbub.

So I say contain it. In a 1v1, public fight. If the judge sees fit due to inactivity, they can mandate that posts be saved if things drag on exceptionally long (or if they just post that much in a single match). If people get their jimmies rustled because the zone is being held up, then oh well. It is far better than a village board getting held up.


*A  noteable exception that I can think of where the biju RP rules entirely caused the hubbub is the Warren-Akatsuki hunt situation, and that still had some zone-god-mode related grief involved.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 04:19:50 AM by Eric »
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Dart Terumī

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2014, 10:47:14 AM »

Alright, forgive me for my post. I don't use forums at all but considering the amount of people bringing this subject to my attention, it's time to finally crack and join.

I think both the old and new rules are broken. I'm not a terrible fan of queued lines for a bijū challenge. Nor does the in-game hunting of the jinchūriki really happen as it's suppose to be done. What I'm going to suggest seems to be what others have already said but I don't know how to quote. So, here it goes and bear with me here.


Bijū/Jinchūriki Rule Propositions:

•Make all challenges, whether IC or OCC, 1v1 only.

•Instead of having only four (4) challenges per year per host, I suggest having it be only four (4) challenges per year per bijū.

•I do like the one (1) week activity per fight but I believe earlier in the year it was discussed allowing a month of time in case of something drastic occurring? But only allowed to use that month clause ONCE a full year.

•OCC vs. IC to be determined by participating challenger and jinchūriki.

•Pre-determined judge to be present should issues arise.
->Just a shot in the dark but perhaps another jinchūriki can be the judge to foster that jinchūriki friendship found in the canon?

•Current jinchūriki cannot challenge for another bijū.
->This includes all alts.
-->Could be monitored.

•NO voiding! Have to finish the fight until a decisive end is met.
->Only voiding may be issued by judge's decision.

•Obvious game rules about roleplay.

If OCC:
•Hand over beast with no repercussions to character.
•Winner is immediately made host.
•Grace period of one (1) week begins the 24 hours after battle is over.

If IC:
•Public posts of obtaining knowledge.
->Maintain log of intelligence gathering.
->Challenged Jinchūriki to confirm posts are valid.
•Battle to death
->Previous jinchūriki dies if beast is removed.
->New host must be able to flee freely.
-->Could be intercepted by bystanders if said bystander were posted present at beginning of fight and do not roleplay elsewhere.


That's just a few things I could think of. Let me know what y'all think! Of course, other details to be hashed out but first, #letmetakeaselfie. Err...I mean, first let us deal with the main issues.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 11:32:22 AM by Dart »
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Hades

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2014, 05:06:57 PM »

I really like Dart's framework for this. I would agree that a system that accounts for both IC and OOC challenges is more functional for all players since people's preferences will be different. Those terms lay out a foundation to keep things very equally fair for both sides and help quiet a lot of the chaos surrounding the issue.
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Sabumaru

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Re: Bijuu Rules Question
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2014, 05:15:40 AM »

it is rather inclusive. Which is the point I believe.

What was I thinking...

Oh!

So if you are going be the IC kind of guy you still have to be out in public and stuff. You can't hole up and not give people a chance to learn about you.

HOWEVER...I hate this everyone and their left shoe are now suddenly sensors. I don't' think chakra sensing should be legit in determining the ID of a host. Location of ID'd host is different, but I think some actually intel works should be used to ID one. If you are going the IC route.

Everyone has chakra-vision too though, and Neji was able to see Naruto's copious amounts of chakra. Would preventing sensors from finding bijū really change all that much?
Just curious, I like Kay's point about everyone being sensors.
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