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[Bocchiere]

No the immortality is just body modifications. It's similar to what Orochimaru did to himself, and he behaves almost exactly like Hidan. His entire torso was pierced by the Totsuka Blade and, before getting sealed, his only response was to laugh and go, "U wot m8?"

Kage is essentially correct, and that is the order of actions as I saw them as well. As I said I would not have to wait IC'ly for Eikan to set up the ritual, I would just have to claim that at the time he off's himself I am in my fire form. That would negate any physical damage the ritual is capable of reflecting, and then the curse would break upon his death because it is still Ninjutsu.

[Rusaku]

I have had an incredibly long day, and a lot of RL things have come up so my patience is thin, I am sure most of you can understand. I'm most certainly not gonna get salty, but I will be short.

 

Let's get one major misconception cleared up before we go; I am not devil's advocate, but are we seriously trying to assert that the chakra network is not a physical system? That it is entirely spiritual?

That is impossible to claim, because the system, as I have pointed out in a by now long ago post, can be damaged by rasenshuriken. Now, correct me if i am wrong, but rasenshuriken cannot damage the soul of the target. By that logic, the chakra system is physical, even if only the physical energy gathering to mold with spiritual energy in da gut and then circulated out.

Yeah but if he doesn't then you don't,

that's how the jutsu works

No, Hidan's immortality not transferring to his victims is clear enough evidence against that claim.

Yeah this topic is very over now, I come out on top regardless.

If the chakra system is physical than it is turned to fire along with the rest of my body, and cannot suffer the melting damage done by the poison.

If the chakra system is not physical than damage done to it is not physical, and thus cannot be reflected via the Curse.

The only damage reflected at me will be needle stab marks, the poison melting my eyes, and the organ damage done to his body by destroying his own chakra system, all of which will be negated by my Incineration Technique.

So I guess we might say that, at the end of the day...

And as I believe that the chakra network is very much physical, to accept that you cannot be damaged, quite frankly, at all unless the flames are extinguished in some fashion would be stretching some belief.


This technique is said to work like the Hozuki technique, but this technique is certainly superior were this to go through. Why you might ask? Because presuming this blocks the damage, then the Hozuki should not be paralyzed by electricity flowing through them, as water itself is not affected by a current running through it; it merely lets it flow through it. Suigetsu, and every other Hozoki, would still have to have some sort of nervous system that could be affected in order for Raiton to paralyze rather than merely enhanced their water forms.

Therefore, their nervous system remains susceptible to damage and interruption if you can get the opposing force to "stick" in the water body. The Blood Controlling technique does not care what the opposing body is made of; it only cares that the affected portions are present in the victim's body, one heart for a heart kind of thing.

In my opinion, going fire mode would not save you from any and all damage done by this technique, if it would save you from any at all, especially if you were to argue that the chakra network is not physical. Because if it is not physical, then physical poison would not be able to affect it without consuming chakra itself, unless we were to assume that this metaphysical chakra network is made up of vessels made up of chakra, which would make the system absorbable by the Rinnegan ability.

That's my remaining cents on the issue, seeing as last night you guys apparently had a smoke or two to resolve this.

Eric seems to have a very firm grasp on common sense.

From what I am reading, the only person who does not agree that Bocc is taking some form of Damage is Bocc, and I understand that. No one wants to be hit with their own dirty tactics, let alone while in the middle of a fight with two fairly decent sound ninja. Though, I don't actually see anyone who refutes that he is gonna be hurt by this in some way. Now, I suggest we move onto what damage he will take, and how. If I am wrong, and we should not move the conversation along, stop me right here. I don't mind.


And Ichirou, I agree that in the Manga, Kyuubi would burst out if he had nothing. And yes, I imagine that you would actually need to sacrifice people, Yada yada. Though, SL works a little differently. Bocc did in fact kill all of the NPC's in Iwagakure when he attacked, and all kinds of other NPC's. While he does not claim to have done it in the name of Jashin, I won't refute anything. While I don't like it being NPC's he kills (Because c'mon, I can make any RP in zone 6 saying I killed a thousand homeless people in the name of my god and that took no effort at all.) But it seems to work on here so I won't complain. If you wish to make a forum topic on that I would be more than glad to talk it over with you, alongside anyone else who wanted to put in their two cents.


Edit: Oops, Forgot Night disagrees as well. Sorry for ignoring that y'all.

[Keito Uzumaki]

I keep getting called crazy for not trying to believe Night and Bocchs whole approach to 'win' this argument.
Physical or not the whole point of the curse is to transfer effects from one body to another. Said effects should still affect the chakra utilizing man! Thats beyond me, it ain't my fight or argument in the first place just wish to make sense of things.
I swear your naruto-logic is too manipulating of normal humane properties.

If you claim the curse cannot transfer over the poison itself the effects of the poison should still attack your chakra system.
(This is going off topic)
But its like trying to claim you have no soul cuz you are only made up of fire, no you do have one its there, so your chakra network is there not in the physical sense since you are fire, but it exist. Only thing feeding your flames really. If you can give me logical reasoning other than dictionary definitions of the word injury,which to be honest that was quite funny trying to make it seem like this attack wasn't physical xD
You be tollin' hard to avoid this.

1. The ritual succeeds, but Bocc isn't dead because of immortality. Just drained of chakra his own chakra, but not the Kyuubi's (completely separate entity).

Thats what I believe should be the verdict, since we already came to the agreement Eikan knows and has this technique. Now as for the defense of just turning into flames.....no I don't see it. You can be in incineration mode 100% of the time and still crippling your chakra network entirely will work. Though you being incineration mode helps you avoid being injected and what not; the transferring of the curse technique is what links your body to his to pass off such effects.

I swear man theres gonna be a day where you are going to try and use that blood curse technique in a similar faction, not to the same exact degree but don't worry another same argument is gonna arise whether or not things are physical and spiritual and just you can't hit me cuz I say so type of approach, cuz it really is looking like that.

[Bocchiere]

If it is physical damage, it is negated by my fire form, because fire cannot be physically damaged.

If it is not physical damage, then it is not reflected via the Curse to my body.

I don't understand the confusion on this. ^

[Keito Uzumaki]

So where is this fire being generated from, really? I wanna know.
Because the tenketsu hover over important body organs; the heart being one. So really if Bocch is just fire, and everything physical passes through him. What happens to something injected into him? Chakra eating substance to say the least. >>;
I'd get it, if he tried to dislocate your head or w.e. and your fire it doesn't work but this is a whole different level of physical means and what not. Poisoning you.

[Bocchiere]

So where is this fire being generated from, really? I wanna know.
Because the tenketsu hover over important body organs; the heart being one. So really if Bocch is just fire, and everything physical passes through him. What happens to something injected into him? Chakra eating substance to say the least. >>;
I'd get it, if he tried to dislocate your head or w.e. and your fire it doesn't work but this is a whole different level of physical means and what not. Poisoning you.

You don't get it though. He is not actually poisoning me. There is no Dokuton in my body. The physical damage of the poison spreading through him would be reflected and nothing else.

If someone absorbed his chakra via the Preta Path I would not be drained of my chakra too, that is not physical damage. I really don't think it's that complicated guys.

If he was actually hitting me with a Dokuton attack right now then you'd be right, it does damage chakra, he is not though. He is reflecting the physical symptoms of being struck with Dokuton to my body via the Curse Blood Jutsu. That is a very significant difference in this situation.

[Keito Uzumaki]

Alright! We are in unison a bit together!
Now that this is cleared:

If he was actually hitting me with a Dokuton attack right now then you'd be right, it does damage chakra, he is not though. He is reflecting the physical symptoms of being struck with Dokuton to my body via the Curse Blood Jutsu.

The physical symptoms is what im getting at. He struck the areas of your body where your tenketsu would be, even if you are on fire. So the physical symptoms attack said portion, in correlation to the tenketsu. In that sense is where I am saying the fire just doesn't cut it. If you claim to not have a physical chakra system, due to the flames in all it should still exist and be prone to targeting.

[Kage]

(3d13h) <暁> 真 Bocchiere - toward the moving Bocchiere, as he would have dashed toward Hazama before Takeo had planned to make them originally, would pass through his body harmlessly. When he saw them erupt in front of him he did not slow his pace and merely used his -
(3d13h) <暁> 真 Bocchiere - Shokyaku no jutsu to convert his body to fire where ever the crystals threatened to stab him, moving out of their radius at high speed before they could enclose and trap him. He did notice that their chakra was not Hazama's which meant, -

If we're going with the whole avoidance by fire thing, then things are about to get really complicated.

Takeo states in his post that multiple crystals would erupt to stab Bocc, but Bocc posts that wherever crystals would try to stab at him, he would merely convert that part of him to fire. This implies that only parts of Bocc's body turned to fire, not his entire body. Now here's the complex part, because Takeo made a generalization attack, and not a pin-point one aiming for a certain part, then Bocc made a generalization defense, and not a pin-point one. We'll probably never know which parts were effected, unless some retro-posting becomes involved.

[Rusaku]

(3d13h) <暁> 真 Bocchiere - toward the moving Bocchiere, as he would have dashed toward Hazama before Takeo had planned to make them originally, would pass through his body harmlessly. When he saw them erupt in front of him he did not slow his pace and merely used his -
(3d13h) <暁> 真 Bocchiere - Shokyaku no jutsu to convert his body to fire where ever the crystals threatened to stab him, moving out of their radius at high speed before they could enclose and trap him. He did notice that their chakra was not Hazama's which meant, -

If we're going with the whole avoidance by fire thing, then things are about to get really complicated.

Takeo states in his post that multiple crystals would erupt to stab Bocc, but Bocc posts that wherever crystals would try to stab at him, he would merely convert that part of him to fire. This implies that only parts of Bocc's body turned to fire, not his entire body. Now here's the complex part, because Takeo made a generalization attack, and not a pin-point one aiming for a certain part, then Bocc made a generalization defense, and not a pin-point one. We'll probably never know which parts were effected, unless some retro-posting becomes involved.

No he is going to Meta with his next post by turning into fire 100% to avoid my attack. That's what we are getting at.

[Bocchiere]

(3d13h) <暁> 真 Bocchiere - toward the moving Bocchiere, as he would have dashed toward Hazama before Takeo had planned to make them originally, would pass through his body harmlessly. When he saw them erupt in front of him he did not slow his pace and merely used his -
(3d13h) <暁> 真 Bocchiere - Shokyaku no jutsu to convert his body to fire where ever the crystals threatened to stab him, moving out of their radius at high speed before they could enclose and trap him. He did notice that their chakra was not Hazama's which meant, -

If we're going with the whole avoidance by fire thing, then things are about to get really complicated.

Takeo states in his post that multiple crystals would erupt to stab Bocc, but Bocc posts that wherever crystals would try to stab at him, he would merely convert that part of him to fire. This implies that only parts of Bocc's body turned to fire, not his entire body. Now here's the complex part, because Takeo made a generalization attack, and not a pin-point one aiming for a certain part, then Bocc made a generalization defense, and not a pin-point one. We'll probably never know which parts were effected, unless some retro-posting becomes involved.

@Kage: I did not state that is how I was countering the jutsu. My next post, in response to Eikan's is going to be me turning 100% into fire as a means to launch an attack on Hazama, which is when his curse attempt will misfire.

@Keito: I really don't know how to explain it to you if you don't understand it after all this. If the chakra pathway system is physical, if there are actual vein like structures in your body that carry chakra, then they would be fire and immune to physical damage like anything else.

If the chakra pathway system is not physical than it is irrelevant because the damage to it could not be reflected via Curse Blood jutsu, as it only reflects physical damage.

[Keito Uzumaki]

Forget the crystals, im tired of seeming like an idiot for believing logic over the whole, im fire you can't touch me yo.
I would like to see descriptive reasoning for why this flame state can't be touched other than I have no physical form so physically I am immune.

This attack could very well be similar to the gentle fist, in the sense that gentle fist on its own targets the tenketsu like chakra needles...

So he attacked you with needles themselves and injected chakra eating poison into himself to reflect the damage to your chakra network; every point.

So you are trying to say because you are fire your tenketsu are not viable to be hit? This scenario:
A hozuki turns into water via hydrification technique; remaining in his bodily shape.
Hyuuga user being able to see tenketsu strikes his water body in a certain spot to trigger the shut off of said tenketsu node.
With Bocch's logic
Dude I'm all water, what chakra system are you striking  bro? Oh yeah I need chakra to use this attack but the things controlling my chakra....yea you can't attack those.

Nah man it don't work like that too me. Further more research into this chakra is of physical proportions by naked to the visible eye. THe Byakugan grants its users to be able to see an opponents chakra system, thus making me believe any being be it fire, water, ice, or whatever the  hell you wanna turn into. Is still susceptible to their chakra system being attacked.

He could have very well just been struck by 361 palms, still would be in the same situation.

[Bocchiere]

Forget the crystals, im tired of seeming like an idiot for believing logic over the whole, im fire you can't touch me yo.
I would like to see descriptive reasoning for why this flame state can't be touched other than I have no physical form so physically I am immune.

This attack could very well be similar to the gentle fist, in the sense that gentle fist on its own targets the tenketsu like chakra needles...

So he attacked you with needles themselves and injected chakra eating poison into himself to reflect the damage to your chakra network; every point.

So you are trying to say because you are fire your tenketsu are not viable to be hit? This scenario:
A hozuki turns into water via hydrification technique; remaining in his bodily shape.
Hyuuga user being able to see tenketsu strikes his water body in a certain spot to trigger the shut off of said tenketsu node.
With Bocch's logic
Dude I'm all water, what chakra system are you striking  bro? Oh yeah I need chakra to use this attack but the things controlling my chakra....yea you can't attack those.

Nah man it don't work like that too me. Further more research into this chakra is of physical proportions by naked to the visible eye. THe Byakugan grants its users to be able to see an opponents chakra system, thus making me believe any being be it fire, water, ice, or whatever the  hell you wanna turn into. Is still susceptible to their chakra system being attacked.

He could have very well just been struck by 361 palms, still would be in the same situation.

I really don't know how you do not get it.

In this situation him actually shooting me up with Dokuton would be the equivalent of being struck by a 64 palms attack. That isn't what he is doing.

However the Curse Blood jutsu does not allow him to manipulate my chakra. If someone did 64 palms on him while he was in this Curse state the only thing that would be reflected is the physical damage to my organs. If someone closed his Tenketsu then that would not be reflected, that isn't damage that's just manipulating his body. If Curse Blood worked like that it would be an irresistable Shadow Imitation Jutsu. "Oh I move my arms and my muscles flex and the same thing happens to your body causing you to move." that is not what the jutsu does.

[Rusaku]

Forget the crystals, im tired of seeming like an idiot for believing logic over the whole, im fire you can't touch me yo.
I would like to see descriptive reasoning for why this flame state can't be touched other than I have no physical form so physically I am immune.

This attack could very well be similar to the gentle fist, in the sense that gentle fist on its own targets the tenketsu like chakra needles...

So he attacked you with needles themselves and injected chakra eating poison into himself to reflect the damage to your chakra network; every point.

So you are trying to say because you are fire your tenketsu are not viable to be hit? This scenario:
A hozuki turns into water via hydrification technique; remaining in his bodily shape.
Hyuuga user being able to see tenketsu strikes his water body in a certain spot to trigger the shut off of said tenketsu node.
With Bocch's logic
Dude I'm all water, what chakra system are you striking  bro? Oh yeah I need chakra to use this attack but the things controlling my chakra....yea you can't attack those.

Nah man it don't work like that too me. Further more research into this chakra is of physical proportions by naked to the visible eye. THe Byakugan grants its users to be able to see an opponents chakra system, thus making me believe any being be it fire, water, ice, or whatever the  hell you wanna turn into. Is still susceptible to their chakra system being attacked.

He could have very well just been struck by 361 palms, still would be in the same situation.

I really don't know how you do not get it.

In this situation him actually shooting me up with Dokuton would be the equivalent of being struck by a 64 palms attack. That isn't what he is doing.

However the Curse Blood jutsu does not allow him to manipulate my chakra. If someone did 64 palms on him while he was in this Curse state the only thing that would be reflected is the physical damage to my organs. If someone closed his Tenketsu then that would not be reflected, that isn't damage that's just manipulating his body. If Curse Blood worked like that it would be an irresistable Shadow Imitation Jutsu. "Oh I move my arms and my muscles flex and the same thing happens to your body causing you to move." that is not what the jutsu does.

Yeah but if those same muscles are destroyed, the damage would be reflected, no? I'm not just closing the tenketsu. They are gone. All of them. Obliterated. If I was being gently fisted (Lul) Then sure, but I'm not (Sadley ;3)

[Keito Uzumaki]

Yo man....
"Any kind of injury that Hidan inflicts upon himself (or the injury they inflicted on him) is reciprocated on his target"

I don't know what the hell you are saying anymore....I really don't
I understand its not shadow manipulation but it transfers any injuries....being poisoned is an injury you have to deal with since the connection. Never did I imply he can lift his right arm and left leg up and you'd do the same, no. Simply put he poisons himself, the effects of the poison should effect you. He poisons his chakra system, same effect goes onto you.

This isn't even my fight xD I fail to see the logic behind the defenses that's about it!

Also
That's the curse blood's own description. It doesn't just say "Physical damage only", "any kind of injury"
This is an very fatal injury!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tsuyo]

Alright, so being told by multiple people to post my opinion on this situation, I see it as this. The Curse technique states explicitly that "Any kind of injury that Hidan inflicts upon himself (or the injury they inflicted on him) is reciprocated on his target,"

That is ANY KIND. Not just physical or some other nonsense. Shokakyu(I believe it's the japanese name) is a jutsu kept active via your chakra. That logically means that one has to have a chakra signature which is proof enough that the tenketsu are still there. Eikan attacked and destroyed the tenketsu correct? Therefore, Bocchiere's Tenketsu (flames or not) are destroyed as well, which should revert him into his normal form and rendered useless.

That's just my 3 cents(because screw 2). I'm not even fully caught up to the topic, but i'm about to head to work, so if i'm wrong, PM me in game and all that jazz but yeah.