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Author Topic: Ban Techniques?  (Read 23680 times)

Eric

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2015, 12:53:25 AM »

One jutsu I hate with a searing passion that should be banned because of it's sheer stupidity, is Kawarimi no Jutsu. I find that anybody using this jutsu thinks of it as some sort of Hiraishin. Sense its not, its simply high speed movement like Shunshin, but with the completely asinine point of running BACK to only put a log or what have you in your place. Whats even worse is that the jutsu is described as, "....users replace their own body with some other object, generally with a block of wood, the moment an attack lands. This creates an optical illusion, making the enemy think the attack was successful." Really? So you just happen to have the speed to move faster than light, or fast enough to leave an afterimage, only to run back with an object from hammerspace for a ,"Ha ha, I fooled you!"??

Granted I could forgive almost all of this, if it weren't for the fact its a general ninjutsu. No genjutsu, no henge to make it look like you; you just do it...

I have never had anyone use that against me in a fight. Nonetheless I would void it cause of the sheer speed on would have to have to do that.

Unless it was prepped beforehand, like it most likely is in the canon series.

But that begs the question, even if it prepared, where are you getting it from? Space-Time? That could work, but cries out abuse. High speed movement? If your moving that fast that your opponent can't see you move out of the way the moment an attack technically "hits" you (I assume the user moves fast enough before the total energy of the attack transfers to you, which is speed the likes The Flash will applaud you for.) summon a log from some scroll, and place it back before they are the wiser, you are already at god-like levels compared to that ninja.

Mad because I should be dead by your Rasen-Shuriken? Its all good bro, I substituted the moment it hit, to give you the optical illusion of me being it, without me actually being hit. Its all science you wouldn't understand.


Alright, let me construct a scenario then to illustrate my point:

Two shinobi are in a battle. Let's say Eric vs Ichirou (Uchiha not Hyuga). Using the hiding in shadow technique, Eric manages to conceal himself from Ichirou's sharingan for a short time. While hidden, Eric takes out a blank scroll and transforms it into a clone of himself. Approaching Ichirou with both, Eric first has the dummy attempt to sneak attack Ichirou from the back. Already at a slight disadvantage because his vision is limited, Ichirou very rapidly strikes at the assaulter with Ameratsu.

Upon being struck, the dummy turns into the scroll, now set ablaze in black flames; Ichirou realizes that he has been tricked just in time for the real Eric to attempt a thousand shuriken attack from his blind side.

Most substitutions in the series were performed by those who were either able to foresee their opponent's attack and plan accordingly, or, like the example, were able to include it in their plan of attack. Once everyone could sense practically everything by part II, the substitution technique largely became a null technique to use, especially since most of the time it was more efficient to just use a regular shadow clone as the dummy (more versatile) or just directly attack the opponent while he/she is distracted.


http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Body_Replacement_Technique

The trivia presents an interesting take on how ninja in real life used a similar concept, though the exact details of how they pulled it off are a bit vague from just the page alone.



*post-script: The technique requires handsigns according to the wikia, so in order to use it exactly as dictated on the wikia, it would require some build-up of chakra.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 01:00:39 AM by Eric »
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Warren

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2015, 01:07:29 AM »

Except your example wouldn't really work, unless you and the henge'd scroll were falling towards him or something.

Henge, or whatever illusion kawarimi uses, can only alter the shape of whatever its used on. It can't animate it.
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Becquerel

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2015, 01:14:21 AM »

Except your example wouldn't really work, unless you and the henge'd scroll were falling towards him or something.

Henge, or whatever illusion kawarimi uses, can only alter the shape of whatever its used on. It can't animate it.

So that supports my idea of a poor man's shadow clone.
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Eric

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2015, 01:29:19 AM »

Except your example wouldn't really work, unless you and the henge'd scroll were falling towards him or something.

Henge, or whatever illusion kawarimi uses, can only alter the shape of whatever its used on. It can't animate it.

Considering that when you transform into something, you can use chakra (presumably) to walk and/or move like the transformed shape, I imagine something of that sort would be possible, especially if you manipulate the object using chakra. An acad would obviously not be moving the substitution around nearly as much, but an experienced user probably could.

Of course, my example was to illustrate my point that the technique would need to be prepared for beforehand in order for it to be usable. How it is prepared for beforehand I suppose is up for debate, so as Becquerel stated, it might just be the original shadow clone technique before Tobirama came up with one made entirely made up of chakra.
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Warren

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2015, 02:50:00 AM »

Henge into something inanimate, you're just as stuck put as transforming some kawarimi object. Henge into an animal or other person, then you can move, though as name says its an illusion so naturally there's a limit to just what the human body can bend to imitate.

Only way a non kage bunshin or other such a clone can move on its own is normal bunshin, and even those only copy your own movements since they're naught but incorporeal images, and follow you around right next to you instead of free movement.
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Eric

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2015, 03:08:37 AM »

Henge into something inanimate, you're just as stuck put as transforming some kawarimi object. Henge into an animal or other person, then you can move, though as name says its an illusion so naturally there's a limit to just what the human body can bend to imitate.

Only way a non kage bunshin or other such a clone can move on its own is normal bunshin, and even those only copy your own movements since they're naught but incorporeal images, and follow you around right next to you instead of free movement.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Clone_Technique

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Crow_Clone_Technique

Illusionary clones can move independently of the user, and as presented by the crow clone techhnique, the "poor man's clone" explanation is not implausible for the substitution technique, or at least how it could be applied here on SL.

Additionally, while transformed, you are not "stuck" and unable to move while being the inanimate object, simply that moving as an inanimate object would defeat the purpose of transforming into an object that is not supposed to move.
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Warren

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2015, 03:07:37 PM »

Crow essentially is a poor man's kage bunshin, but not in kawarimi sense because the crows are living things capable of actually moving according to your chakra/will.

Okay, bunshin does not always copy the originals moves completely all the time, but you get my point >_>; its an incorporeal illusion, you can't kawarimi with it, it can't fight for you, and it does not fool a single doujutsu either.
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Eric

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2015, 10:49:42 PM »

Crow essentially is a poor man's kage bunshin, but not in kawarimi sense because the crows are living things capable of actually moving according to your chakra/will.

Okay, bunshin does not always copy the originals moves completely all the time, but you get my point >_>; its an incorporeal illusion, you can't kawarimi with it, it can't fight for you, and it does not fool a single doujutsu either.

I don't see how crow clone couldn't be used for substitution, since I am sure we have seen objects such as logs, scrolls, and the like be manipulated to move with chakra.

And the illusionary clone would only have to give the brief appearance of trickery, it would not have to necessarily go all out as in my example (though again, with chakra, it should be quite possible considering what is possible in the realms) nor fool for very long. How many body replacement techniques from the series were even used against dojutsu users?
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Warren

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2015, 11:36:54 PM »

Didn't say crow can't be used for it. I meant its different from kawarimi because its crows banding together to form an actual body, as opposed to you casting a genjutsu over an object to make it look like you as is done in kawarimi.

Don't really get what you mean with the not needing to fool thing. Bunshin has no solid shape so you've nothing to swap places with, your hands would just pass through soooo...

Kawarimi was used on occasion if memory serves, though without much success. Otherwise only really Oro's body replacement or what was it called, and Madara swapping with his Limbo shadow.
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Eric

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2015, 11:57:50 PM »

Didn't say crow can't be used for it. I meant its different from kawarimi because its crows banding together to form an actual body, as opposed to you casting a genjutsu over an object to make it look like you as is done in kawarimi.

Don't really get what you mean with the not needing to fool thing. Bunshin has no solid shape so you've nothing to swap places with, your hands would just pass through soooo...

Kawarimi was used on occasion if memory serves, though without much success. Otherwise only really Oro's body replacement or what was it called, and Madara swapping with his Limbo shadow.


When the sub poofed, the weapons and/or damage that was shown to be applied to the replacement object. As a result, the clone would not have to be entirely tangible for it to be effective. Again, it is less place swapping and more preparation, since as earlier noted, a place swap that takes only a split second is pretty OP, even for SL standards.

It is hardly any different, the crows were completely unharmed when Sasuke stabbed through them; the body was an illusion facilitated by the physical presence of the crows. The crows additionally can act as further triggers for more genjutsu, or themselve might very well be illusionary. Knowing Itachi, it could have gone either way really.

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Bocchiere

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2015, 05:48:50 AM »

Why don't we just agree to not use substitution instead of arguing about to what degree of stupid it is?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 05:57:11 AM by Bocchiere »
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Becquerel

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2015, 05:50:26 AM »

Why don't we just agree to not use substitution instead of arguing about to what degree or stupid it is?

I figured that was an unsaid agreement and people were just trying to figure out the different kinds of substitutions and how they work.
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Eric

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2015, 06:06:11 AM »

Why don't we just agree to not use substitution instead of arguing about to what degree or stupid it is?

I figured that was an unsaid agreement and people were just trying to figure out the different kinds of substitutions and how they work.

Discussing on how substitution would work, ya know ya know.
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Garō, Ichirou

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2015, 07:37:13 AM »

I've never really seen Substitution used, outside of spars that I've had with ShadowlordJayJay wherein he would throw a Kunai and then utilize Kawarimi no Mai to switch with it. I'm not really sure if this would be considered "proper" usage of the technique but I didn't say anything about if at the time, outside of that i've never really seen anyone try to use it.

Except for the Occasional person who doesn't know what they're doing and they wait until they literally get hit with something and then they're all like "that was a log lololololololol"
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Mei

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Re: Ban Techniques?
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2015, 02:01:45 AM »

I've never really seen Substitution used, outside of spars that I've had with ShadowlordJayJay wherein he would throw a Kunai and then utilize Kawarimi no Mai to switch with it. I'm not really sure if this would be considered "proper" usage of the technique but I didn't say anything about if at the time, outside of that i've never really seen anyone try to use it.

Except for the Occasional person who doesn't know what they're doing and they wait until they literally get hit with something and then they're all like "that was a log lololololololol"

I was thinking the same thing. Like how many people even use the tech now?
That was one of my favorite jutsus when used correctly. But I only use it once per fight. 
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