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[Hazama]

So, I'm not sure how many people actually saw the forum topic that stated my Bijuu fight against Night only needed our judge(Bocchiere) to say okay and then everything would be practically set in stone.

For those who don't know, Night forced any of his challengers to IC know about him having his beast and then he'd add them to the list. After hearing how much of a hard time he was giving challengers, I challenged him.

Well, I logged on the other day to have our judge tell me Night gave him his beast and now that of I want it, I have to fight Bocchiere. Of course I'm sure he'll post something about 'stop being scared, just because I've killed you before, blah blah blah' or something passively aggressive. But I think this is utter crap.

Night says it is because RL plans, and okay, I'll take that. But when our fight is so set in stone and the whole nine, is it not against the rules to do that? I feel duped, played, and like a fool.

I feel as though is counts as a forfeit and I find it weird that, after months of avoiding challenges and 'setting up his rules' that he goes and gives his beast to the most infamous person on SL once he gets a challenger he couldn't deny.

Tl;dr:
I feel like this counts as a forfeit and that I should be in possession of the beast, but if that isn't how everyone else sees it, then so be it.

[Masane]

I agree with Haz. I think it's just wrong of him to make his challengers go through so much and then just give it to someone who did nothing to learn of his whereabouts  as far as I know. I have not been on much lately so correct me if I'm wrong. Hazama should hold the two tails if Night was just going to stop. He was the one who was supposed to challenge him. How id the wolr would this not go against some crazy SL rule here?

[Camel]

If Hazama was the first challenger on Night's list and assuming that the challenge happened then the beast would automatically go to him since this situation actually counts as a forfeit; I was in a different scenario when I challenged for Matabi and Kirk had some issues to deal with in RL, thus forfeiting Matabi to me since our fight had already started.

However if the fight didn't start, then Belphegor must honor the previous challenge list and Hazama will get the match he deserved for it.

This is my two cents on this situation.

Edit: I also noticed that Son Goku hasn't been sealed into a proper host in over a week, this issue itself needs to be resolved as well.
Unless it's treated as a summon, then it should be known to others on here.

[Hades]

I will reply to this not to try to influence a certain outcome, but to explain, as I thought I had, but perhaps I was not clear.

To begin, little was actually "set in stone" for the battle. Bocchiere was agreed upon as a judge, but there had not been any review of whether or not any techniques needed to be nerfed (from either contestant) in order to make the fight fair. And beyond that, there were also no decisions made about a zone setting or any additional rules. The only thing that had been decided was a judge.

I don't appreciate the insinuation that I was forcing anyone to do anything. I merely stood by the rules that have been created for the bijū and jinchūriki because the community created those rules for a reason and I feel that people ought to follow them and respect them.

Particularly regarding needing to have the knowledge IC, I don't see why that is problematic, as it is, in fact, in the community-made rules for bijū challenges. I think perhaps the norm is now to waive that; perhaps most jinchūriki no longer care. But it is in the rules and I had every right to say it was required; it also adds to clarity. i.e. Why would your character be attacking mine for a bijū when they don't even know about it?

I wasn't aware that Bocchiere had directly talked to you in any way nor will I speak at all on his behalf. Bocchiere is his own person and I will not police him for his actions or assume his responsibilities.

As the match had not yet begun, I could not forfeit. I was under the impression that the rule about a challenge list being passed or "inherited" from host to host was in place, and it sounds like it is, so I knew that neither you nor Machina would lose your spots and I felt that it would be unfair for me to hold onto Matatabi when I wouldn't be able to devote the necessary attention to my impending matches with the two of you. As such, I felt that the best course of action was to "return" Matatabi to Bocchiere, as I essentially came to possess the Nibi because of him.

Also, I did nothing to avoid challenges. I did indeed seriously consider what preferences I wanted to set forth for matches when I become a jinchūriki. That is because prior to that, I had never been in that position before and wanted to carefully think through what would be the most fair for both me as the host and for my challengers, as I have previously a number of heated arguments over skewed rules.

I based my preferences off of the existing rules and thought I made everything quite fair. A handful of people messaged me, curious about a battle, while I was still working on the preferences, and I followed up later and most had lost interest. Perhaps even all of them but you two, Hazama and Machina.

After the terms were complete, I was perfectly open to the challenges. There were problems with the way Machina approached it and that caused a delay for her, yes. Haz, as soon as you asked, I added you, since we both agreed that you already knew what you needed to IC. I fail to see how that is in any way avoiding the challenges.

As Kamui has said, no match was begun and therefore no match was forfeited. You and Machina retain your top-of-the-list positions for challenges, and will now be able to carry those out with someone who can be RP active, which is not me.

I will not mind either way if the outcome of this situation is decided upon differently, so again I will also reiterate that I am not trying to move things toward a certain end here. I am simply stating my opinion and explaining things from my perspective, and confirming that I agree with Kamui.

However, I felt it necessary to voice my opinions as you, Hazama, and you, Machina, both accused me of things which I do not appreciate in your forum posts here. Please be respectful, that is all I ask.

[Ace]

If Hazama was the first challenger on Night's list and assuming that the challenge happened then the beast would automatically go to him since this situation actually counts as a forfeit; I was in a different scenario when I challenged for Matabi and Kirk had some issues to deal with in RL, thus forfeiting Matabi to me since our fight had already started.

However if the fight didn't start, then Belphegor must honor the previous challenge list and Hazama will get the match he deserved for it.

I have to agree with the above.
Ultimately depends on if the fight started or not.

Though I limit my posts with regards to specific role play (not my arena), this general concept I think I'm able to speak.   

[Hades]

Yes. Kamui did ask me about that when he saw Hazama added before Machina. Shortly after I became Matatabi's host, before I even had both tails mastered, Hazama and I conducted a private RP -- the primary goal was for Hazama to test a seal that limited physical transformations of the Hozuki/Iburi style -- and in that RP Hazama, as he is obviously quite skilled, became aware of Yakan having the Nibi. So Hazama already knew and as such he was able to have the first spot when he requested, as Machina had not yet used the Edo Tensei to revive Tsuyo/Manji and get the information from him.

I believe the next day (real time) Machina sent me proof of her RPing what she needed to with Tsuyo/Manji and she was added to the list as well.

I made sure, prior to giving up Matatabi and ceasing RP, that Bocchiere/Belphegor would honor the previous challenge listing so that those two would not lose their spots. I feel that would be unfair to them and I would not have wanted to do that.

[Hazama]

Simply because Night didn't want to fight Machina, and that's okay. But my fight with Night would have already started... If Night didn't already ask me to hold off on our fight until he was done with finals.

So, what does my kindness of being like 'Yeah, I get it. Don't worry, we'll fight soon.'? He uses his extended time to give his beast to Bocchiere instead of our fighting starting, like it should have over a week ago.

Whether his intention was to pull the wool over my eyes or not, our fight would have already started if he didn't ask for more time before it started. So am I still to be screwed and to fight Bocchiere instead when I should not have to?

[Hades]

I am sorry. You are not understanding my point here.

Where is the RP where Hazama makes his challenge for the Nibi? To have an IC encounter, in context,  means that you role play something. I see Machina role playing coming to Kumo to challenge you. I do not see Hazama coming to Kumo to challenge you.

Koji knows Night in the host too. But he never RP'd challenging for the bijuu. Do you see my point?

Without the RP you have an OOC challenge, not an IC one.

Ah, I see.

I will use three separate terms to make what I'm about to say as clear as possible: There is the (1) knowledge, (2) request, and (3) battle.

According to the rules, if the battle is to be IC, then the challenger must have knowledge, IC.

This is what I adhered to. In other words, Hazama could not request an IC battle without having the IC knowledge.

However, it doesn't say that the request has to be IC. And actually, I feel like that would be kind of weird... Depending on the character, sure, the request might take place IC, but more often than not I think the battle would begin probably with some sort of surprise attack, or an attack of some sort at the least and probably not a friendly question of, "Let's spar... But like... To the death... And then if I win I'll take that thing inside you."

The language the rule uses is that "the challenge must be IC" which (though perhaps I've entirely misunderstood...?) I understood to mean that the battle must be IC, not the request.

That makes more sense to me. Otherwise the rule would be requiring that in order to IC request, you have to IC know, which I think would be rather obvious, and then it doesn't imply anything about whether, following the IC request, the battle would need to be IC or OOC... Which would just seem very odd to me.

It makes more sense, from my perspective, to have a rule that says in order for the battle to be IC, there has to be IC knowledge.

Rather than, in order for the request to be IC there has to be IC knowledge.

^ Did I explain that clearly?

The result of that is that Hazama -- or any challenger -- has to have the IC knowledge in order to have the IC battle. The request does not need to be IC, there could just be an attack. And personally, I would prefer the request be OOC, because then I can actually add him to the challenge queue, you see?

So my ultimate understanding is that once a character has IC knowledge, they can request (OOC) to be added to the challenge list, at which point the other details of the battle will be discussed and decided and then following that there would IC RP leading up to the battle that may or may not include some version of IC request for battle.

To the best of my knowledge the other jinchūriki (primarly Eric and Bocchiere) have also had the requests for battles be made OOC because of the functionality that serves for the challenger listing. I don't remember exactly but I believe both of them consider their battles IC, despite the requests being OOC. Doing it that way makes the most sense to me, but even if it didn't, I was following suit.

Does that answer the question properly?

[Eric]

For the record, none of my matches have been, nor ever will be in the forseeable future, IC. Because I don't like doing IC biju matches.

2] ºDetermine the Nature of the Challengeº
The host and the challenger, and ONLY the host and challenger, determine the nature of the challenge. BOTH decide if the match will be an IC Challenge or an OOC Challenge. This means that if an IC Challenge is chosen, the challenger has to RP learning the host’s identity and location and maneuvers him into a Match. This does not mean that the RP is used as a means for the Host to forever avoid having to face his challenger. The host must make it possible for the challenger to complete the terms of the RP event. This is not the battle part. You are going to face off with each other. You are just being creative about it.
If the OOC Challenge is chosen, then no RP concerning the challenge is performed. The details are agreed upon and the Match takes place.

IC is IC, through and through. You must encounter each other IC, you must challenge IC, and you must maneuver them into a match. Absolutely IC. Once you maneuver them into a match, then you start negotiations, which can only go so far since the fight is IC (thus, thing like terrain and even time of day are already set depending on the maneuvering time of the challenger).

ºHosts Must Committ to Active Statusº
Jinchūriki have an obligation to be active, and are stripped of their bijū if they cannot get online and do their round (1 post every week), regardless of the reason. The leader of their clan/organization will inherit the bijū; if the jinchūriki wasn't in a clan/organization, then a tournament/event can be arranged to determine a suitable host.

This is still, technically, a rule. If you are too inactive to fight a biju match (to the point where you need to ask for extended time before the match even begins) then the tailed beast is really not for you. Rather than extensions, the biju should have been stripped if you could not get on to fight for it. It's a pain, but I am relatively prompt with my responses to biju matches. I don't expect once a day, but, like, really?

Yes, it is cool to be a nice guy and be like "you got finals and stuff", but the consequences of not bearing in mind just how long that is going to take and taking appropriate action before the beast is handed off results in a discussion of this sort.

There are now several options that we are faced with:

Scenario I: Bocc has the tailed beast

ºTime Limitationsº
The possessor has a week to decide between sealing the Bijū into someone and making them a Jinchūriki, or imprisoning the Bijū and using genjutsu to control them as a summon. <--- type of genjutsu is in debate at this time.

Presuming an alt is not being used to contain the beast, then Bocc has definitely reached the limit for his tailed beasts, and will have to pass the beast on to someone else. If he is using an alt, then that really doesn't matter, and we can go from there.

Scenario II: It is an alternate that Bocc is using.

Well, there are no rules governing the gifting of tailed beasts, so Bocc's alt could receive the tailed beast, and would be required to fight for it.


Scenario III: Night was inactive enough regarding the challenge to have been stripped under other circumstances

Well, if Night would have been stripped without the biju swapping shenanigans, then it would stand to reason that the challengers (there happen to be two in line) could just fight for it and call it a day. But this scenario is tricky, since I don't think the "post in a public place once a week" is enforced as much as it was prior to the return of biju challenges.

Scenario IV: Night used the RP as an excuse to delay his challenges due to him not being able to RP out the RP.

The host and the challenger, and ONLY the host and challenger, determine the nature of the challenge. BOTH decide if the match will be an IC Challenge or an OOC Challenge. This means that if an IC Challenge is chosen, the challenger has to RP learning the host’s identity and location and maneuvers him into a Match. This does not mean that the RP is used as a means for the Host to forever avoid having to face his challenger. The host must make it possible for the challenger to complete the terms of the RP event. This is not the battle part. You are going to face off with each other. You are just being creative about it.
If the OOC Challenge is chosen, then no RP concerning the challenge is performed. The details are agreed upon and the Match takes place.

I quote this again, because it clearly states that the RP portion, in no way or fashion, may be used to avoid/uneedingly delay challenges. Hosts have an obligation to be active, even during tough times.



This last one in particular begs the question of just how long Night was being given for this, and that if his inability to RP is what caused him to pass on the beast, if that can be interpreted as IC challenger dodging, as an OOC host would have no excuse for going an extended time (I'm talking a week to weeks, not a few days) without at least setting up the match proper (as it is claimed to have not been done in this IC case). If so, then Night is in the wrong here and the only thing left to sort out is where the beast goes, rather than if he keeps it or not.

[Hades]

To clarify, I didn't actually ask for an extension on the timeframe. Public posts are required within every fortnight (two weeks). I believe my latest post in Kumo (excluding the one where I left) just passed one week. I have not violated that activity rule.

The once a week rule is strictly for battles... Once they have begun, which ours did not.

My decision to cease RP activity was made yesterday, as a result of a number of plans that I made that will fill up my christmas break.

The comment that I made to Hazama about being in finals week at university was not a request for an extension on any time frame. At that point in time, I had just confirmed Hazama would have the first spot and we were discussing the other details that needed to be worked out about the battle (judge, character abilities, etc.) and I told him that I would review the list of abilities that he said Hazama possessed and let him know if I thought anything needed to be removed or nerfed. I simply told him that I was in finals week at university and that I wouldn't be able to review it immediately. That is within the fortnight rule, and the one week rule does not apply because the battle hadn't begun, and of course, at the time I believed that after finals week my RP activity would increase again as would my ability to review Hazama's abilities and skills.

I think the confusion arises when we discuss the "challenge" (this has already been noted as confusing wording; i.e. does this refer to the request or the battle?) being IC or OOC. My preferences say IC because to me that means that you RP as your character and that the events are considered "canon," i.e. they did in fact occur in the timeline.

Alternatively, to me OOC means you may or may not even be RPing as your character and the events are not considered to have actually happened in the timeline.

Whereas it sounds like you (Kay and Eric) interpret IC to be a more encompassing sort of thing that only operates when nothing is dicussed externally, and OOC to be any situation where anything is discussed or decided externally. As such, we may need to redefine the match as OOC by your definition, as Hazama and I were discussing it externally to agree upon a judge, abilities & skills, setting, etc.

That's important because if the match was IC (by your definition) then by not RPing decisions related to the match with Hazama, I would be abusing RP to delay the match.

But by your definition of OOC (which is what it sounds like to me, but we may need to clarify those terms more), Hazama and I were discussing those details externally not requiring the components of that process to be RPed, and as such, I couldn't be using RP to delay the match unless I was locking myself in a set of un-openable Russian nesting dolls or hunkering down in a tower surrounded by endless defenses.

Which, if you review the Kumo board, I was not doing. I was really just doing random things in Kumo and waiting until match details were decided, at which point I would exit the village in any variety of ways and meet Hazama away from Kumo to do battle.

Ultimately what I'm saying is, I never asked for an extension on any timeframe nor did I violate any of the timeframe related rules throughout the match process with Hazama. Therefore the matter of violation of required activity wouldn't be able to be used to "strip" me of the beast, and I would retain it. And consequently, retaining the beast, I could gift it to Belphegor. Which is Bocchiere, but a different account and as such that does not violate the rules you were calling into question in the beginning of your post, Eric.

So that would mean that Eric's Scenario II is true. -- Love the way you broke everything down, good sir.

OR if I have overlooked something (which I would say is not negligence but rather miscommunication/lack of clarity) and it is decided that Eric's Scenario III is true, then I should have been "stripped" due to inactivity prior, and Matatabi would then be passed to Koji, as he is Yakan's village leader.

[Eric]

...I think the confusion arises when we discuss the "challenge" (this has already been noted as confusing wording; i.e. does this refer to the request or the battle?) being IC or OOC. My preferences say IC because to me that means that you RP as your character and that the events are considered "canon," i.e. they did in fact occur in the timeline.

Alternatively, to me OOC means you may or may not even be RPing as your character and the events are not considered to have actually happened in the timeline.

Whereas it sounds like you (Kay and Eric) interpret IC to be a more encompassing sort of thing that only operates when nothing is dicussed externally, and OOC to be any situation where anything is discussed or decided externally. As such, we may need to redefine the match as OOC by your definition, as Hazama and I were discussing it externally to agree upon a judge, abilities & skills, setting, etc.

That's important because if the match was IC (by your definition) then by not RPing decisions related to the match with Hazama, I would be abusing RP to delay the match.

But by your definition of OOC (which is what it sounds like to me, but we may need to clarify those terms more), Hazama and I were discussing those details externally not requiring the components of that process to be RPed, and as such, I couldn't be using RP to delay the match unless I was locking myself in a set of un-openable Russian nesting dolls or hunkering down in a tower surrounded by endless defenses...

You could still have internet in a Russian bunker if you are ferring to IRL. Otherwise, it is not that hard to defeat RL conventional defenses with the Narutoverse stuff in general.

While you have more or less clarified the issue of time, I think you have misunderstood that I and possibly Kay's definition of IC and OOC are as they are written out in the rules:

2] ºDetermine the Nature of the Challengeº
The host and the challenger, and ONLY the host and challenger, determine the nature of the challenge. BOTH decide if the match will be an IC Challenge or an OOC Challenge. This means that if an IC Challenge is chosen, the challenger has to RP learning the host’s identity and location and maneuvers him into a Match. This does not mean that the RP is used as a means for the Host to forever avoid having to face his challenger. The host must make it possible for the challenger to complete the terms of the RP event. This is not the battle part. You are going to face off with each other. You are just being creative about it.
If the OOC Challenge is chosen, then no RP concerning the challenge is performed. The details are agreed upon and the Match takes place.

IC route - IC challenge (challenging the host) and IC fight (fighting it out in character, and thus occupies the RP of the host and challenger)

OOC route - OOC challenge (no RP is done in relation to making a challenge) and OOC fight (the fight is completely out of character, and both may continue to RP whatever they please back on SL).

Now, how personal preferences are muddy up the water uneedingly. Saying that you can still RP elsewheres while having an IC route match is not legitimate. Saying that you have to find someone IC first, but having the match being OOC is NOT an OOC route match.

The primary rules are very clear on this matter. If personal host preferences clash, then that is the same matter I brought up some time ago about superseding the main rules. I forget the decision, but the point is, according to the rules, the match is either all OOC or all IC (you can chat about where you're going to meet and stuff and judge, but you still RP every part of the process. You can arrange stuff OOC, but everything must eventually come down to RP).

If you and Hazama were JUST discussing the mechanism for which you would RP, then Hazama's challenge has not even started if you are doing the IC route. However, that would also mean that Machina has been unfairly pushed back if she actually DID confront you IC to challenge you.



So that I can get more direct with this, let's actually take a look at your rules:

Current Host: Yakan (Night)

Affiliation: Kumogakure

Battle Method: 1v1 IC match

Judge(s): PMs will be used to determine an agreed-upon judge

Challenger Queue:
[1] Hazama
[2] Machina Uzumaki

Special Rules:

-First you need to learn, IC, of Yakan’s possession of Matatabi. When you provide proof of how your character learned of Yakan’s possession of Matatabi, then you can request to take the next spot on the challenge list.

-Once you are on the challenge list we will discuss who we'd like to have judge the match. No match will begin until a judge is agreed upon.

-The match will strictly be 1v1, to prevent any complications arising from extra participants.

-The battle can be forfeit by either opponent and is won by any kill move, however, neither opponent will die as a result of the match. Whichever opponent is victorious will exit the match with Matatabi; both opponents will exit the match alive.

-Any challengers that lose the match will be required to wait the minimum of three months before requesting a new spot on the challenge queue.

-For anyone, including myself, participants will be allowed any common, general, and basic skills that their character possesses, as long as those skills are backed by reasonable explanations (they have an existing explanation in the character’s RP history). Any special skills will be determined according to the sixteen point system of resets:

———————————————

~Every special skill must have a stated total of possible points (i.e. Rinnegan/Sage Mode max at six points, Sharingan/Byakugan max at four, etc.)

~If using any of the eight IG KG, the same system against combing rinnegan/sage, uchiha/hyuga, etc. applies. Any external or custom special skills will need to be accurately assessed and set before the match begins.

~This eliminates claiming the resets or borrowing the techniques of any other players.

————————————————

-Arguing is discouraged. I will talk over any concerns regarding the match with you if the conversation remains calm and logical. If it steps outside of that, then the judge will be asked to make a decision. Pointlessly bickering is not fun or useful for anyone.

-For the sake of ease, the match will be conducted in a forum thread instead of in a public zone on SL. The same RP conduct rules apply, however. Additionally, while the environment can be selected, no “nameless posting”-type activity will be allowed.

-Participants will have fourteen days to post. If they wait longer than that period of time to respond to the other participant, the posting participant will win by default. However, if any post is discredited for rule-breaking and/or a repost is required, then that post does not count and the repost must be posted within the original timeframe.

-If any of the rules set forward are broken, I reserve the right to cancel the match. This will not prevent you from re-challenging after the three-month waiting period.

Non-Negotiable Voids:

-Anything that does not have a reasonable explanation within the Naruto/SL lore
-Any custom technique that has no prescribed flaw (auto-hitting/character control)
-Any of the recent Rikudo powered abilities
-Body Revival Technique (when used to survive Hachimon)
-Izanami
-Kamui (intangibility)
-Swift Release

All information subject to change

Mail me with any questions

First of all, it sounds like you have a hybrid kind of system going on here. The match is IC, and you have to be found IC, BUT, a kill move successfully killing does not result in an IC kill. That is not how IC fights work, even outside the context of biju matches, and is more an OOC component.

Additionally, the challenger is required to provide PROOF that they know of Matabi's possession IC. Yet, you have no personal rules on how the actual RP of the fight is to be conducted. You do not just go AWOL IC and end up in the forum fight zone, you have to actually RP going to the fight and stuff.

To be fair, I will also post up mine as a counterpart of how I envision an OOC match to be:

I suppose I will go ahead and be pro-active about this area. I will start with the SL forum and then go from there, since this will also help me gather my thoughts.

Challenge List:
1] 09/11/14 (9/22 - 10/28) Elemental Seraph: conceded due to inactivity.  (Forum)
2] 09/27/14 (10/29 - 11/20)      Senju Ichirou: challenger conceded    (Forum)
3] 10/28/14 (11/22 - 12/1)  Athos                 : challenger conceded (Forum)

4]  11/29   Senju Ichirou

5]



To find previous matches that took place here on the forum, just forum search Eric Nara vs (insert challenger name here). Or, simply type the name of the challenged and/or challenger in the search function. Either way, if it took place here on the forum, it can be found.

Alternatively, all of Eric's at least will have an exclamation mark as its topic icon. That should make it very easy to pick out among a sea of paper icons.

Link to Narutopedia challenge page: http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Kokuo_Challenge_List_%285-tails%29

Link to Forum challenge page: http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8031.0.html

Current host: Eric Nara

Affiliation: Akatsuki/Missing Ninja

Preferred Method: OOC 1v1 match

Special rules

-The match is to be 1v1, though summons and the like are permitted.

-Victory for the challenger is the defeat of the host through any means necessary, and vice versa. Death in the fight does not equate to death IC.

-Skills acquired during an OOC match are not carried over IC.

-If, by some chance, the match should reach a point of true stalemate after a minimum of 12 turns or 30 days (the criteria to be used depending on the progression of the fight) then a judge may be called in to determine a winner based on how the fight has progressed up to this point. Both participants must request this of the judge in person (no he said we could or she said we might, the judge must receive a response from both participants). If this is chosen, then the judge may declare a  winner based on these criteria:

          *Who effectively manipulated the flow of the battle the best? The strategy employed (based on the posts) may have been defensive and attrition-based, but was it effective in the long run in wearing down the opponent?

          *What caused the stalemate? The challenger being unable to defeat the challenged, or vice versa? Is it constant cancellation of jutsu and techniques by both sides, or merely one side taking refuge in a relatively inaccessible area (such as pocket dimension) in order to avoid defeat entirely?

           *Who showed the greatest skill in the fight? This is completely and utterly at the discretion of the judge. Their decision is final on the matter, regardless of accusations of cheating or bribery or otherwise. This should be kept in mind when deciding on a judge for the fight.

If neither side can be conclusively declared the winner, then the fight either proceeds or a draw is declared. In the case of a draw, the challenger may rejoin the queue of challengers after the latest challenger without having to wait for cooldown (this circumvention for the benefit of the challenger for not technically being declared the loser, though by not succeeding the host can be considered a winner in this situation). Note, this is a technical victory for the host, so unless the challenger truly believes that a restart is necessary to increase victory chances, then it is not recommended to settle for a draw without reviewing this process a second time.

-Is willing to fight either at SL or on the SL forum, the latter option most useful for fights where long periods of time may pass between postings (and also serves as a record of the fight's progress for other challengers)

- Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are the preferred days for zoning. Times vary by week, so see host for details.

- In the event that a host is defeated, the new host has the cooldown challenge period timeframe to either accept the special regulations for the tailed beast or completely re-write or alter the special rules. If they do not post their own variant by the beginning of the next challenge, then it is to be assumed that they comply with the previous special regulations.




If you wish to make a challenge, post below stating the name of your in-game character, compliance or wish to negotiate with the above stipulations from the host, and preferred zone. After that, communication will mostly be in private messages through a necessary medium.

Any questions or concerns should be directed in PM's as to avoid cluttering unnecessarily this thread. Thanks in advance.

Everything is completely Out of Character. You do not die as a result of the match, no skills attained in match are carried over, and there are fairly OOC regulations on how to handle draws. If you can spot something that requires something to be done IC I will gladly change it so that it doesn't.

Anyone who is hyrbiding the OOC and IC routes are technically doing it wrong. A match is either OOC or IC. You can discuss stuff OOC even with an IC route, but again, EVERYTHING must be done IC in order for it to count as the challenge. The IC route was included specifically for those who wanted to RP out the biju fights (I was abhorrent and decided to stick with OOC). You cannot demand IC prereqs and then have an OOC styled match.

[Hades]

Ah, now see, that makes perfect sense, but is not what I understood from reading those rules.

However, you did note at the beginning that those main rules can be superseded if both host and challenger agree to other terms. Case in point, what happened between you and Ichirou.

So, my first question would be... Seeing as Hazama agreed to my preferences, does what I detailed supersede the primary rules then?

But even aside from that, yes, I did muddle the issue by incorporating IC and OOC elements in my preferences, as I had not understood the distinction in the rules the same way you explained it here.

However, I stand by that because I prefer IC RP over OOC, but I also disagree with anything IC needing to result in a player's character's death.

But as you said, to be completely IC, it would have to. I disagree with that.

Aside from the issue of character death however, the match was going to be carried out in IC style. However, as I already, having interpreted the rules differently from the way you just explained them, it was my understanding (and thus I conducted myself such) that as soon as identity/location were identified by the challenger, they could request a spot in the queue OOC. That method is better to me because then however long it takes to hammer details like a judge/zone/skills, that challenger still gets the first spot for meeting the knowledge requirement and then they don't have to worry about trying to rush to actually get to me before anyone else does and nobody has to worry about getting RPed locked per se either.

That is my reasoning on having made that decision, and perhaps if I had to create preferences now I would do it differently, but that was the process at the time and I maintain that because I think that's beneficial for the challenger.

Of course you then point at that Machina should perhaps be before Hazama? But that is still not true. Hazama had the information but hadn't come to challenge me IC, true. However, Machina came to challenge me without the information. She knew OOC, as anyone could, but she hadn't properly obtained the information in RP.

Ultimately what this means is that it does come down to RP and it was on its way, but no challenge had begun yet, nor did I abuse RP to delay the challenges.

To me, then, it still sounds like, according to those who voiced opinions earlier (Kamui and Ace) as a match had not begun, I was legitimate in passing the bijū from Yakan to Belphegor.

Otherwise the confusion from my terms in one way or another means that I should've have had Matatabi anymore anyway and again I believe it would pass to Koji then.

[Bocchiere]

First of all, Kamui.

http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8138.0.html

Secondly, the fight did not start yet, and I did inherit the challenger list. Hazama was up first and he dropped his challenge and I already messaged Machina and we decided we would start ASAP.

There is no issue here, though props to Haz for making a topic to complain about after saying he'd drop the issue and forget about it. You already knew the answer to this before you made it, you're just fishing to see if you can get a free bijuu.

Even if this worked and you got it I would just challenge you for it and I already explained how that would go if I just decided to go full out.

[Eric]

I am of the opinion that:

To modify bijuu rules for a personal match is acceptable.

When those rules impact another they are not so acceptable. Such as...Night and Haz deciding to merge IC and OOC with their battle has prevented Machina from RPing her challenge prior to Hazama who is not currently at Kumo sensing Nibi chakra.

As shown by the copy pasting Eric has done through 2] ºDetermine the Nature of the Challengeº, the IC and OOC definitions were defined sufficiently.

I do however disagree that IC means a person must submit to character death.

As Machina is now the current challenger of the Nibi it seems it worked out well enough in the end.

However, this sort of issue might want to be avoided in the future.

Just because it's IC doesn't mean you have to die. Plus we have already had that discussion before, more or less.

*My main point up here is that IC /=/ death, but a killing blow in an IC match should = death because bro, you just died IC.

Ah, now see, that makes perfect sense, but is not what I understood from reading those rules.

However, you did note at the beginning that those main rules can be superseded if both host and challenger agree to other terms. Case in point, what happened between you and Ichirou.

So, my first question would be... Seeing as Hazama agreed to my preferences, does what I detailed supersede the primary rules then?

But even aside from that, yes, I did muddle the issue by incorporating IC and OOC elements in my preferences, as I had not understood the distinction in the rules the same way you explained it here.

However, I stand by that because I prefer IC RP over OOC, but I also disagree with anything IC needing to result in a player's character's death.

But as you said, to be completely IC, it would have to. I disagree with that.

Aside from the issue of character death however, the match was going to be carried out in IC style. However, as I already, having interpreted the rules differently from the way you just explained them, it was my understanding (and thus I conducted myself such) that as soon as identity/location were identified by the challenger, they could request a spot in the queue OOC. That method is better to me because then however long it takes to hammer details like a judge/zone/skills, that challenger still gets the first spot for meeting the knowledge requirement and then they don't have to worry about trying to rush to actually get to me before anyone else does and nobody has to worry about getting RPed locked per se either.

That is my reasoning on having made that decision, and perhaps if I had to create preferences now I would do it differently, but that was the process at the time and I maintain that because I think that's beneficial for the challenger.

Of course you then point at that Machina should perhaps be before Hazama? But that is still not true. Hazama had the information but hadn't come to challenge me IC, true. However, Machina came to challenge me without the information. She knew OOC, as anyone could, but she hadn't properly obtained the information in RP.

Ultimately what this means is that it does come down to RP and it was on its way, but no challenge had begun yet, nor did I abuse RP to delay the challenges.

To me, then, it still sounds like, according to those who voiced opinions earlier (Kamui and Ace) as a match had not begun, I was legitimate in passing the bijū from Yakan to Belphegor.

Otherwise the confusion from my terms in one way or another means that I should've have had Matatabi anymore anyway and again I believe it would pass to Koji then.

http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8126.15.html

Might want to read that thread again, in particular one of the last context posts posted:

the fact still remains that you do not have to fight to the death in order to challenge for a bijuu and you can't refuse a challenge on that basis.

blah blah I can kill anything. so what? Doesn't mean we have to let you do it. but if you are going to be a host you have to accept the challenge.

that is non-negotiable.

your challenger does not have to accept a death match but you do have to accept the challenge.

So going off this logic I could challenge Bocc and say I'm going to use max KG resets and all and you can only use taijutsu because you can't deny me a challenge.....??

Literally that is what you are saying. That you can not deny someone a challenge even if they do not agree to your terms. I feel that a host as being the host should have the right to set their conditions how they wish and the challenger should have to follow them. 

If that is against the rules then perhaps the rule needs to be reworked. I say we open it up for discussion on whether you can make all your matches be IC. I am sure there are more who would agree to this than disagree or it seems that way to me.

The only reason that mandatory death-match is a no is because it goes against the actual main biju rules. Something like maxed KG is something that you have a bit more liberty with, seeing as there is nothing against the rules against that.

Just like with the US, all powers not explicitly granted to the federal (main rules that a host cannot alter) are supposed to be reserved for the states (the host may customize it).

So it's not that the challenger can get away with absolutely anything. However, at the same time, there are certain things that the host just cannot force on a challenge. An IC or an OOC match apparently being one of them.

And also sense Bocc can't deny an OOC challenge does that mean that Eric can't deny an IC one? That only seems fair to me. I just want to be sure though.

Neither the challenger nor the host are supposed to be able to force anything on each other in that regard:

The host and the challenger, and ONLY the host and challenger, determine the nature of the challenge. BOTH decide if the match will be an IC Challenge or an OOC Challenge.

Among the negotiations that may be made at the very beginning of the match, whether it is IC or OOC or not is one of them. It is disallowed to have mandatory deathmatches, but that does not mean that you cannot have deathmatches.

The two will make all arrangements for when the match will begin and where. Should the Jinchuriki ignore or refuse the invitation(s)-with no reason given- 3 times consecutively, you may report it to other Jinchuriki. Subject for such an event's invitation, for proof & reference of a challenge, must be titled: (Number of tails) - (Name of Jinchuriki); the body of the message may be as you please (though manners & politeness would of course make things much smoother).

This suggests that a host can in fact refuse a biju challenge. However, a reason must be given, and it is reported to other jinchs (counselor flaw atm, but it's in there) if the challenger feels that the reason was not valid. If the "others" view the uncompromisable position that one host and one challenger cannot decide on whether it is to be OOC or IC, I presume a middle ground is instead attempted on the two in order to flesh out a solution.

If one still cannot be made, then considering the counselors in that situation, the challenger would likely then have to compromise on something in order to carry on with the challenge. The audience are jinchs, who are not going to want to be forced to do IC or OOC, so it would be uncanny of them to vote in that specific situation that the challenger gets their way, especially if another challenger down the list is willing to at least compromise on a give-take basis. So in practice, that would be a very bad thing to not be able to compromise on for the challenger.

So as far as your question Kirk, I can and I can't. I can deny all I want, but if it is deemed unreasonable (which would be practically the same as not giving a reason at all under that rule, unless that rule is made ONLY for if the host gives no reason to the challenger about why they refuse, in which case we are back to where we started with this thread in that the host does in fact have more welding power on the match's characteristics) then it would have to be taken to some court in order for a decision to be made.

A provision for such hasn't really been set up, obviously, especially if it is a jinch decision. While all jinchs have minds of their own, a cry of bias is not entirely unfounded, since we have our interests as fellow hosts as well to consider, though whether that affects our decision or not is up for future debate.

In the end, I say that if the challenger and the host cannot come to a compromise over something as simple as IC or OOC, flip a coin. Roll some dice. Because if the challenger attempts to get other jinchs to force other jinchs to do IC or OOC, they are probably not going to win that fight.

Long story short, if it conflicts with the main biju rules (which, by the way, a  hybrid system does) then it is not permissible. What happened between Ichirou and I, by definition, should not have been allowed (and such is noted in the biju match itself, very first post) and occurred only because of the lack of objection and the lack of any other challengers in the que at the time. It was and still is technically an illegal move.

[Eric]

I am sorry eric but can i get a tl:dr? just for this one part cause I am tired.

What did you and Ichi do that was not right?

ºChallenge Limitationsº
You may only challenge the same host for the same bijuu once every three months.

Ichirou did not have to wait the cooldown period before rechallenging me. He drawed the match, but since he did not win the match, he should not have been able to challenge me for three months. As you can tell from my page, Ichirou did not wait nearly that long in order to challenge me again.

P.S Yes, I told him that he could re-challenge me, but all the same, that is technically against the rules.