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Author Topic: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress  (Read 6711 times)

Ѕhadow

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Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« on: May 31, 2015, 02:40:46 AM »

It was brought to attention that Amegakure has a lot of sentient susanoo OP clones as a defense. Personally I think it's over the line and needs to be nerfed.

The link in which it was debated a little is here:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8441.msg221103.html#new

READ IT BEFORE POSTING HERE PLEASE.

Anywho this will further debate on what to do. Is it allowed, etc. Like I said, my personal opinion, is no. Please; don't digress.

Also, reading material: (From Eric)


http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Amegakure#Village_Defenses

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Susanoo_Sage_Mode

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Art:_Susanoo_Clone

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Art%3A_Inorganic_Reincarnation?_ga=1.148278839.1406565761.1419795001

« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 03:14:13 AM by Madara (Shadow) »
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Teostra

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2015, 02:59:29 AM »

I have already stated my opinion on the matter. But, if Kage is still going to use it, I really think there should be some handicap to it. I think a good work-around to it would be basically the Susanoos could all be there, but be basically in standby mode. When/If he wants to use them, he'd have to enter something like the Metagross that Nagato used to hang around in and basically become a vegetable in order to control all of these things at the same time.
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Rusaku

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2015, 03:08:37 AM »

As it stands, looking over all of the available information on what these defenses include, I would say void. As I previously stated, the idea is very cool, but honestly it's just too much. xD 25 sage mode, damn near sentient, Susanoo? Nahhhhhh
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Eric

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2015, 03:12:26 AM »

It was brought to attention that Amegakure has a lot of sentient susanoo OP clones as a defense. Personally I think it's over the line and needs to be nerfed.

The link in which it was debated a little is here:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8441.msg221103.html#new

READ IT BEFORE POSTING HERE PLEASE.

Anywho this will further debate on what to do. Is it allowed, etc. Like I said, my personal opinion, is no. Please; don't digress.


Wouldn't it be better to start with first the bio descriptions that may be relevent, and then go on to the divergence in the other thread?

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Amegakure#Village_Defenses

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Susanoo_Sage_Mode

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Art:_Susanoo_Clone

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Art%3A_Inorganic_Reincarnation?_ga=1.148278839.1406565761.1419795001

I'm still trying to fit it all together, as it has been awhile since I've poured over Ame's village defenses and such. However, the above resources will likely be very helpful for others trying to form an opinion on the matter.
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Keito Uzumaki

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2015, 03:35:19 AM »

It shouldn't be voided because of its extremes. I kinda get it, he chose the path of pretty much 'perfecting' the susanoo by going through Susanoo Sage Mode and what not, cool concept. I like custom techniques over the regular ones if anything! Just the way Susanoo was setup to be in the series I normally thought a person had a single susanoo and that Madara was only able to do such given he was an edo and then going god mode on everyone afterwards. I'm not saying multiple susanoo would technically be impossible but would need incredible focus and chakra control in order to operate and maintain. Must be painful to operate more than one, no doubt but surely a ninja could utilize their energies to support such a tactic as shown how Nagato powered Ame's defense.

Thats about all I gots to say with it. In a similar fashion of how Nagato had to be forced with being immobile and crippled in order to maintain his Paths running throughout Ame and protecting it; these susanoo could be something similar! Free roaming and on their own susanoo is quite the force, could take over the world pretty much! The susanoo clones easily defeated the 5 great nation's kages in the series. >>; Gotta be some price to pay for such a tremendous defense but with those alone Ame definitely has a good defense system as should every village by now. Unless you are welcoming attackers to just constantly invade and destroy!

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Eric

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2015, 04:02:14 AM »

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Takama_no_Hara

That alone makes these susano'o somewhat OP in my opinion. According to the wikia, there are 24 of these janks ready to fight at will. Reducing that number to 4 would probably be more reasonable considering the raw strength and durability of each susano'o.

Their sentience, and added defenses on top of senjutsu enhancements are also rather top tier. I'm not going to nitpick though, the number of them and their individual strength is just a tad much imho.
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Teostra

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2015, 04:10:45 AM »

Just to add onto the whole issue with the Takama no Hara thing. Basically, it gives the Susanoo an immunity to anything that's not 'Naruto'. But, it's a technique that isn't from 'Naruto' in the first place. Would it cause some kind of paradox where it grants an immunity to itself thus nullifying the benefit from the takama no hara?

That's a joke, in case people can't grasp it. I know jokes are hard to get through a textual medium. But basically, it's "I'm going to create an original technique that makes this thing immune to 'original' techniques."
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Kage

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2015, 06:59:28 AM »

Like I said before in the other thread, nobody has had a problem with this until recently, when people are trying to hunt down a Tailed Beast in my village. Keito and even Shadow himself have entered my village without a hitch from them. But attacking and fleeing became a different story.

Now let me expand on the sentience part. The fact that they're an advanced clone jutsu means that there are some liberties one can take, as well as using Inorganic Reincarnation on them. Being a clone jutsu, they have knowledge and some of my will in them already. Having the second jutsu applied to them, means that they are a further extension of my will and can act independently.

After reading the replies in this thread, I can see what people are really the most concerned about. Whether or not they'll actually get their battle. Well so long as you don't screw up by attacking the village in general and angering the guards within them before going about with your search and hunt, then sure you will. To expand upon my opening statement though, Shadow had no problem with them at all in his time within the village. But he left via Hiraishin for some reason or another. And Keito only had a problem with them after he did a hit-and-run on the village. Heck, during that time, TWO Jinchuriki were coming straight for them. That's like, their battles for the Tailed Beasts coming right to them. But nah, both of them went off somewhere else.

To make things short, you are getting your battles, so long as you don't screw up and get the entire village's attention. Hunters are supposed to be sneaky when trying to infiltrate a village. Even Itachi and Kisame were pretty sneaky while they were in Konoha.

Though you also have to remember that by entering the village, you are accepting the things occurring within it. Please look a bit more into all the details of acceptance and voiding in RP before declaring "void" immediately. But to make people feel better, I'll tone the clones down to twelve instead of twenty-four. Though I made these while keeping in mind that more people with village-destroying powers are popping up. And even more-so with resets becoming a less-credible way of people having their character's advancements being held back behind a certain speed limit in RP. The easiest way for someone to hunt down a Tailed Beast is to completely level a village, wait a week for the beast to respawn, and then level anything else in the way. It sounds ridiculous, but it's effective and some would have their way with it if they wanted to.
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2015, 07:07:54 AM »

Like I said before in the other thread, nobody has had a problem with this until recently, when people are trying to hunt down a Tailed Beast in my village. Keito and even Shadow himself have entered my village without a hitch from them. But attacking and fleeing became a different story.

Now let me expand on the sentience part. The fact that they're an advanced clone jutsu means that there are some liberties one can take, as well as using Inorganic Reincarnation on them. Being a clone jutsu, they have knowledge and some of my will in them already. Having the second jutsu applied to them, means that they are a further extension of my will and can act independently.

After reading the replies in this thread, I can see what people are really the most concerned about. Whether or not they'll actually get their battle. Well so long as you don't screw up by attacking the village in general and angering the guards within them before going about with your search and hunt, then sure you will. To expand upon my opening statement though, Shadow had no problem with them at all in his time within the village. But he left via Hiraishin for some reason or another. And Keito only had a problem with them after he did a hit-and-run on the village. Heck, during that time, TWO Jinchuriki were coming straight for them. That's like, their battles for the Tailed Beasts coming right to them. But nah, both of them went off somewhere else.

To make things short, you are getting your battles, so long as you don't screw up and get the entire village's attention. Hunters are supposed to be sneaky when trying to infiltrate a village. Even Itachi and Kisame were pretty sneaky while they were in Konoha.

Though you also have to remember that by entering the village, you are accepting the things occurring within it. Please look a bit more into all the details of acceptance and voiding in RP before declaring "void" immediately. But to make people feel better, I'll tone the clones down to twelve instead of twenty-four. Though I made these while keeping in mind that more people with village-destroying powers are popping up. And even more-so with resets becoming a less-credible way of people having their character's advancements being held back behind a certain speed limit in RP. The easiest way for someone to hunt down a Tailed Beast is to completely level a village, wait a week for the beast to respawn, and then level anything else in the way. It sounds ridiculous, but it's effective and some would have their way with it if they wanted to.

At that time I didn't know you had 24 much less that they were so op'ed. 4 normal susanoo clones eating off your own chakra? Sure I'm down with that. Like I said, I didn't know the extent of their OP until recently.

I left cause Keito stirred things up too much and I was spreading myself too thin in rp.

The thing I also have a problem with is the jutsu you're claiming to use on them. Inorganic reincarnation. It doesn't say anywhere that it can be used on chakra. Since it doesn't say what it can't do. We can only go on what it can do. And what it can do is move the ground. You cannot add something more than that unless others agree to it. From the looks of it, I'm the only who does?

But others agree to tone it down more. And cutting it down to 12 is fine, but I doubt anyone will be satisfied until you add some drawbacks.

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Keito Uzumaki

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2015, 07:22:23 AM »

I only left because Machina claimed to be faster and closer to me than the susanoo were, in which they were the first on scene to chase me. As well as with her logic that she could still catch up to me after the x amount of times I wasted around while fleeing the scene and only the susanoo took advantage of such. I did tell Kage I wouldn't have minded his defenses and would rather deal with just them and Ichirou given I didn't have to wait around for everyone in the posting order to make whatever post they felt necessary as well as having to deal with a god mod ninja atop of the susanoo clones. I simply wanted to test out just exactly what village defense Ame had while also attracting the attention of the Yonbi, maybe under other circumstances we would have seen just how it all would have panned out; although I do not have much patience to wait that long and be stuck IC RP. >>;

honestly though I still don't see how they can be operated on their own if you even mentioned they are a variation of clone technique and your own will manifested from your own chakras. Thats gotta tax something on your body, heavily if anything. Of course once they are active and not roaming. Besides You'd already have to be in Sage Mode to use the inorganic reincarnation technique to begin with if I am understanding it correctly.
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2015, 07:27:02 AM »

Of course once they are active and not roaming. Besides You'd already have to be in Sage Mode to use the inorganic reincarnation technique to begin with if I am understanding it correctly.


Great point. Does the technique last while out of sage mode?
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Rusaku

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2015, 07:56:33 AM »

Wouldn't his chakra be perma cut because of these being clones?

Like, he would need to focus and sustain these constructs, as well as suffer the immense damage the Susanoo actually causes the body. Let's not forget how much damage the Susanoo actually does. Sasuke being quoted to saying that it feels like every cell in your body is being stressed immensely with just first form. You have 24 of them at all times, that would surly shorten your life span...At least I think so. Maybe I'm just high.

If anything, I could handle if he had the 8 I originally thought,  4 would make more sense. I wouldn't even consider accepting anything over 8 though. At a certain point it's just ludicrous to think something like that is realistic for one single person to sustain at all times of the day. 
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Warren

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2015, 11:44:47 AM »

Well Kage if you want something else to address than the susanoo, you could try explain yourself about the takama no hara thing. As I mentioned in previous thread, and both Teostra and Eric in this one, it doesn't really matter where you say its power comes from, its basically an original thing that makes you immune to original things.

If you dislike non-canon things so much then why don't you just avoid or void them upright instead of, y'know, using the very same thing you're trying to void?

Its pretty much the same as saying 'nice thing you've created, too bad its a worthless waste of time' right up their face, which one might consider quite insulting since despite the effective voiding you're still acknowledging their stuff exists by dealing with them, and in the end you're still doing the exact same as they are. In fact if memory serves a good few of your own things are original, most prominent of them all your sage mode.

And no, I'm not bringing this up just cause I'm looking to fight you or anything.
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Eric

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2015, 04:24:38 PM »


... Now let me expand on the sentience part. The fact that they're an advanced clone jutsu means that there are some liberties one can take, as well as using Inorganic Reincarnation on them. Being a clone jutsu, they have knowledge and some of my will in them already. Having the second jutsu applied to them, means that they are a further extension of my will and can act independently...


Inorganic Reincarnation does allow you manipulate non-living things (I can see chakra being included in that) by imbuing some of your life force within said things; however, it does not generally grant sentience (the canon technique surely does not cause sentience) to these things. It does not make them alive in the sense that they can gather their own natural energy.

In the other thread, the big deal was that people got their fight. In this thread, the main deal is that you have a rather powerful village defense that is nigh invulnerable without a blatant drawback. Naturally this would come up when people decide to visit your village more aggressively (such as tailed beast hunting) because prior few cared enough to even look up the defenses of your village.

I digress somewhat though. Why not just Yin-Yang release instead of Inorganic Reincarnation? It seems like a much more flexible device for the creation of living, breathing constructs of chakra.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 04:25:15 PM by Eric »
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Kage

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Re: Amegakure; The Susanoo Fortress
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2015, 06:29:24 PM »

Well Kage if you want something else to address than the susanoo, you could try explain yourself about the takama no hara thing. As I mentioned in previous thread, and both Teostra and Eric in this one, it doesn't really matter where you say its power comes from, its basically an original thing that makes you immune to original things.

If you dislike non-canon things so much then why don't you just avoid or void them upright instead of, y'know, using the very same thing you're trying to void?

Its pretty much the same as saying 'nice thing you've created, too bad its a worthless waste of time' right up their face, which one might consider quite insulting since despite the effective voiding you're still acknowledging their stuff exists by dealing with them, and in the end you're still doing the exact same as they are. In fact if memory serves a good few of your own things are original, most prominent of them all your sage mode.

And no, I'm not bringing this up just cause I'm looking to fight you or anything.
That's the beauty of it though. They get to roleplay what they want. I would rather give them a chance of having fun with others, than just totally ignoring them in any RP associated with them. Instead of marking them "undesirables", I would rather help them in becoming integrated with the community. You need people if you want to roleplay. Otherwise you're just blogging your own fanfiction. Though I'm willing to drop the three times defense thing, since that was a bit extra.

Inorganic Reincarnation does allow you manipulate non-living things (I can see chakra being included in that) by imbuing some of your life force within said things; however, it does not generally grant sentience (the canon technique surely does not cause sentience) to these things. It does not make them alive in the sense that they can gather their own natural energy.

In the other thread, the big deal was that people got their fight. In this thread, the main deal is that you have a rather powerful village defense that is nigh invulnerable without a blatant drawback. Naturally this would come up when people decide to visit your village more aggressively (such as tailed beast hunting) because prior few cared enough to even look up the defenses of your village.

I digress somewhat though. Why not just Yin-Yang release instead of Inorganic Reincarnation? It seems like a much more flexible device for the creation of living, breathing constructs of chakra.
I could very well just do that. Yang Release alone would be sufficient enough. Though I would have thought that people would be able to put two and two together in realizing that Inorganic Reincarnation is a Yang Release technique of a much higher caliber. You have to remember, that techniques that are not classified as an element is either a Yin or Yang Release. The Naras fame themselves on their use of Yin Release all the time.

And in regards to people saying they'll never get their fight, I'll quote myself my most recent reply in the other thread, not out of self-gratification, but as addressing their concern.
Look man, I'm just saying that if a challenger screws up and draws attention to themselves, then of course they're going to have a village down their back. Do you realistically expect the entire village to clear the streets and bow to someone who states their intentions clearly and/or cause village destruction? Isn't the point of being a hunter AND ninja to be sneaky and track down your target to a location for the fight to commence? Once the fight commences, there will be onlookers and bystanders in the area. Though once it ends (death/incapacitation/yield/etc.) then it ends, and the whole force of a village is going to come down upon them.

Wouldn't his chakra be perma cut because of these being clones?

Like, he would need to focus and sustain these constructs, as well as suffer the immense damage the Susanoo actually causes the body. Let's not forget how much damage the Susanoo actually does. Sasuke being quoted to saying that it feels like every cell in your body is being stressed immensely with just first form. You have 24 of them at all times, that would surly shorten your life span...At least I think so. Maybe I'm just high.

If anything, I could handle if he had the 8 I originally thought,  4 would make more sense. I wouldn't even consider accepting anything over 8 though. At a certain point it's just ludicrous to think something like that is realistic for one single person to sustain at all times of the day. 

If they're independent beings with the ability to replenish themselves, then there's not really much of a tax on my own chakra if I've cut myself off from them. Just be glad that their knowledge, memories, experiences and chakra don't rush back to me and let me know what hooligan is making a mess in my village. And I'm really sure that Kishi pretty much retconned Susanoo actually hurting and killing the user. The most prominent user in the series, Madara, was able to live until very old age. But if anything, it would cause more pain to those without an Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, since that were the only times when we saw any indication of actual pain occurring to a user. Perhaps it is one of the hidden perks of having it. Heck, just look at Sasuke, the second-most prominent user/abuser of it. He seems just fine too.

Though with myself being a Uchiha and a Senju, along with Susanoo being one of the techniques I've delved into over the years, ought to prove my own proficiency with the technique and the techniques I've spawned from it.
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