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[Eric]

I didn't say it was fun for everyone, but simply just giving my reason as to why I want to incorporate this. I'm also not saying you should let me use this jutsu because its fun for me. Just pointing out that it seems we'd rather be closed off to things than be open to them and atleast try. Also was pointing out there are things alot more dangerous that a majority of us use than invisible, hard to sense taijutsu clones.

... We've incorporated faaar more dangerous things than this, instant kills, nearly instant space-time sniping/dodging, unlimited chakra and stamina zombies, easy to use village destroying jutsu, nearly impenetrable chakra titans with strength comparable of that to the Bijuu and the list goes on...

If anything there wasn't enough Inquisition style technique burning in my opinion. Edo Tensei, Rinnegan (in general), Tensaigan (which I still don't acknowledge personally) and hiraishin come to mind in saying that.

Limbo was rejected shortly after explanation:

 http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,7957.0.html

put on a list for rejection:

http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,7997.15.html

And as already said almost to sickness, nerfing the technique until it is a shadow of its former self is not fun, it's, at least to me, irritating. Why use Limbo when it is regulated to a invisible to the naked eye shadow clone that cannot even perform jutsu? What fun is there in using a canon technique if it is nerfed to the ground?

I'm trying to keep the core advantages of the technique intact. Most of the weaknesses are upon the user itself to make it fair for the opponent so they can make that their advantage. To answer your question, that is what basically Limbo is, an invisible to the naked eye shadow clone who never performed a jutsu.

I'm willingly to work around the details because these three aspects are the most important to me (as they make the jutsu what it is)

1. Hard to sense
2. Durable
3. Able to switch places

Heh, have the user be held responsible for making it possible for the target. That's like saying that the host of a biju has the obligation to make it possible for a challenger to complete the RP requirements of a hunt. If we could trust general user judgment on this matter there wouldn't even be any regulations for anything RP related beyond the standard social norms of the site.

I had not even recalled the switching places thing, which is itself a problem, but being sensable by even regular sensors does not make it hard to sense, the durability is particularly flawed if the damage is reflected on the user (even if not, how durable is durable here? I don't want to have to go through another SL HP pool just to take down a clone) since its a double-edged sword. From the propositions I have seen proposed that are not outright rejection,  I don't see how the core tenants are going to be maintained.

[Warren]

Reminds me of another core detail that seems to be missing, if my memory's correct. Doesn't damage dealt to the shadow transfer to main once the shadow returns to it? Which'd mean if you blow like half the shadows side off, the main would suffer this injury too.

[Mei]

I'm trying to keep the core advantages of the technique intact. Most of the weaknesses are upon the user itself to make it fair for the opponent so they can make that their advantage. To answer your question, that is what basically Limbo is, an invisible to the naked eye shadow clone who never performed a jutsu.

I'm willingly to work around the details because these three aspects are the most important to me (as they make the jutsu what it is)

1. Hard to sense
2. Durable
3. Able to switch places

You basically stated the three reasons why we don't want to incorporate it. >.>

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far only Rinnegan can see it while you're allowing Sage Mode and chakra sensing to at least sense them. So if no other way beside what was previously mentioned, then it's still unfair because not a lot of people have any of those abilities. And correct me if I'm wrong, but there's different levels to chakra sensing also. So even if you can sense them, you may not be able to 'sense' how they will attack, leaving your only option to stay away from them which would be impossible if you're surrounded by them. And again correct me if I'm wrong, but only exception would be Sage Mode. >.>

Proof: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/377/18

2. Beyond durable. They cannot be 'killed' period, only immobilized (and that's only via methods involving Six Path chakra - which can be downplayed to use those black chakra rods that only Rinnegan users have access to). And we can only estimate the time limit for how long these shadows can stay out and another time limit to estimate how long until you can bring them out again.

Proof: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/675/12

3. Kawarimi all day, everyday? You might want to put a limit on how many times this can be used per fight. >.>

If you truly believe in what you said, then you're most likely going to find someone to RP with you in using Limbo. I don't know who but somebody. So in essence, arguing for Limbo to be accepted into the RP community will probably never happen, however, your attempts were honorable.

[Deathstroke]

@Mei

Not exactly. My impression when I first saw madara use it, since it zoomed in on his eye, was that it was launched like kakashi's kamui. You would look at a point and then a shinra tensei would be generated from that point, as if you were standing there. The easy way to make it fair would be to say it can only be so strong, no village destroying levels. It would probably be more supplementary, used to surprise people and knock them into other more dangerous things.

[Rusaku]

@Mei

Not exactly. My impression when I first saw madara use it, since it zoomed in on his eye, was that it was launched like kakashi's kamui. You would look at a point and then a shinra tensei would be generated from that point, as if you were standing there. The easy way to make it fair would be to say it can only be so strong, no village destroying levels. It would probably be more supplementary, used to surprise people and knock them into other more dangerous things.

I liked the technique more when it was a long distance Shinra tensei. We should go with that instead

[Mei]

@Mei

Not exactly. My impression when I first saw madara use it, since it zoomed in on his eye, was that it was launched like kakashi's kamui. You would look at a point and then a shinra tensei would be generated from that point, as if you were standing there. The easy way to make it fair would be to say it can only be so strong, no village destroying levels. It would probably be more supplementary, used to surprise people and knock them into other more dangerous things.

Oh I see, that's kinda cool. It takes the shadows completely out of the equation. But again, it goes back to what's the point of bring a tech. and nerf it to a completely different version of itself. >.>

[Kage]

After a bit more reading of the thread and some thinking, I would support Limbo for incorporation. I'm a Sage Mode user here, and I feel safe with letting it fly.

And really with this whole, "It's too over-powered" argument we have going on here, you could say that with a lot of things here.

Tenseigan is too OP.
Rinnegan is too OP.
Sage Mode is too OP.
Susanoo is too OP.
Kamui is too OP.
Wood Release is too OP.
Mangekyou Sharingan is too OP.
Sharingan is too OP.
Byakugan is too OP.
Gentle Fist is too OP.
Tailed Beasts are too OP.

I add a bunch of other canon stuff to that list too. Like, why not just get good instead? It took me years to, but it was worth it.

[Uchiha Madara]

I'm trying to keep the core advantages of the technique intact. Most of the weaknesses are upon the user itself to make it fair for the opponent so they can make that their advantage. To answer your question, that is what basically Limbo is, an invisible to the naked eye shadow clone who never performed a jutsu.

I'm willingly to work around the details because these three aspects are the most important to me (as they make the jutsu what it is)

1. Hard to sense
2. Durable
3. Able to switch places

You basically stated the three reasons why we don't want to incorporate it. >.>

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far only Rinnegan can see it while you're allowing Sage Mode and chakra sensing to at least sense them. So if no other way beside what was previously mentioned, then it's still unfair because not a lot of people have any of those abilities. And correct me if I'm wrong, but there's different levels to chakra sensing also. So even if you can sense them, you may not be able to 'sense' how they will attack, leaving your only option to stay away from them which would be impossible if you're surrounded by them. And again correct me if I'm wrong, but only exception would be Sage Mode. >.>

Proof: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/377/18

2. Beyond durable. They cannot be 'killed' period, only immobilized (and that's only via methods involving Six Path chakra - which can be downplayed to use those black chakra rods that only Rinnegan users have access to). And we can only estimate the time limit for how long these shadows can stay out and another time limit to estimate how long until you can bring them out again.

Proof: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/675/12

3. Kawarimi all day, everyday? You might want to put a limit on how many times this can be used per fight. >.>

If you truly believe in what you said, then you're most likely going to find someone to RP with you in using Limbo. I don't know who but somebody. So in essence, arguing for Limbo to be accepted into the RP community will probably never happen, however, your attempts were honorable.

1. Alot of people don't have access to Kamui, but it seems kind of strange to me to say, "Since alot of people don't have Kamui, it is thus unfair so we shouldn't have it." While I may not know every single player, most that i've encountered are either a Sage, a user of Rinnegan, a sensor, or a combination of them. If there is a option just above generic sensing i'm all ears (which I thought contact sensing was, but apparently its not enough). Maybe high level ones like Minds Eye. Would adding smell and environment changes make it better? Like noticing air distortions, hearing sounds, feeling vibrations, noticing the clones interact with the environment etc. To be surrounded would be impossible because the rules say 1 or 2  clones (depending on how you guys want it) You cannot sense what a wind attack will do (either cut you up or push you back) but you know its coming.  A sensor can be good enough to the point they can predict the movements of an opponent without even needing high level sensing jutsu.

2. I know most of what they are; are at unacceptable levels, which is why I gave them set durability, the rest should come with the however else we solve RP problems. How durable is X? Well attack X and find out. Like I said before, I don't really care aside from the core abilities from what the manga and anime say. Some aspects I believe are reasonably ignorable in order to make it work in a manner most can agree with. A time limit would actually be a pretty good thing, but from what I've seen, techniques in RP go by turn basis, not an actual minute by minute sort of thing. 3 post remainder and 3 post cooldown?

3. Hmm, maybe. Only say maybe because of the previous idea mentioned with the cooldown, that might be enough to limit switching? Along with that, a Hiraishin user can do this all day with enough clones. I'll try to get a condensed version of the ideas, advantages, and weaknesses. I only thought of it for like 5 minutes before posting it so keep coming with the ideas.

[Uchiha Madara]

@Mei

Not exactly. My impression when I first saw madara use it, since it zoomed in on his eye, was that it was launched like kakashi's kamui. You would look at a point and then a shinra tensei would be generated from that point, as if you were standing there. The easy way to make it fair would be to say it can only be so strong, no village destroying levels. It would probably be more supplementary, used to surprise people and knock them into other more dangerous things.

Oh I see, that's kinda cool. It takes the shadows completely out of the equation. But again, it goes back to what's the point of bring a tech. and nerf it to a completely different version of itself. >.>

By the way, I know you don't like the technique, but if it ends up different than the actual Limbo and you didn't plan on using it to begin with, why care if its different? Your not the one trying to come up with ideas and weaknesses to make this thing viable across the board.

[Mei]

After a bit more reading of the thread and some thinking, I would support Limbo for incorporation. I'm a Sage Mode user here, and I feel safe with letting it fly.

And really with this whole, "It's too over-powered" argument we have going on here, you could say that with a lot of things here.

Tenseigan is too OP.
Rinnegan is too OP.
Sage Mode is too OP.
Susanoo is too OP.
Kamui is too OP.
Wood Release is too OP.
Mangekyou Sharingan is too OP.
Sharingan is too OP.
Byakugan is too OP.
Gentle Fist is too OP.
Tailed Beasts are too OP.

I add a bunch of other canon stuff to that list too. Like, why not just get good instead? It took me years to, but it was worth it.

Most, if not all, of what you mentioned have fair weaknesses and/or manageable to deal with.
Out of the list, I would say only...Rinnegan, Sage Mode, Kamui, and Tenseigan.

- Sage Mode has a turn limit, although I see some people are incorporating ways to make it 'infinite'.
- Kamui (I assume you only meant the 'warping' ability) can be 'sensed' coming by the opponent's focusing chakra in the eye.
- Rinnegan has a few countermeasures depend on the Path used.
- Tenseigan, atm only 2 people have it and may be the most OP out of the four. I honestly have not thought of any counter measures against this but if I had to guess, I would say use Sage Mode and hope for the best. o.o

1. Alot of people don't have access to Kamui, but it seems kind of strange to me to say, "Since alot of people don't have Kamui, it is thus unfair so we shouldn't have it." While I may not know every single player, most that i've encountered are either a Sage, a user of Rinnegan, a sensor, or a combination of them. If there is a option just above generic sensing i'm all ears (which I thought contact sensing was, but apparently its not enough). Maybe high level ones like Minds Eye. Would adding smell and environment changes make it better? Like noticing air distortions, hearing sounds, feeling vibrations, noticing the clones interact with the environment etc. To be surrounded would be impossible because the rules say 1 or 2  clones (depending on how you guys want it) You cannot sense what a wind attack will do (either cut you up or push you back) but you know its coming.  A sensor can be good enough to the point they can predict the movements of an opponent without even needing high level sensing jutsu.

2. I know most of what they are; are at unacceptable levels, which is why I gave them set durability, the rest should come with the however else we solve RP problems. How durable is X? Well attack X and find out. Like I said before, I don't really care aside from the core abilities from what the manga and anime say. Some aspects I believe are reasonably ignorable in order to make it work in a manner most can agree with. A time limit would actually be a pretty good thing, but from what I've seen, techniques in RP go by turn basis, not an actual minute by minute sort of thing. 3 post remainder and 3 post cooldown?

3. Hmm, maybe. Only say maybe because of the previous idea mentioned with the cooldown, that might be enough to limit switching? Along with that, a Hiraishin user can do this all day with enough clones. I'll try to get a condensed version of the ideas, advantages, and weaknesses. I only thought of it for like 5 minutes before posting it so keep coming with the ideas.

For #1, your interpretation is wrong. If the majority did not have the necessary counter-measures against Kamui, then it would be unfair to have it. Although, according to Warren, if someone were to Kamui you into the pocket dimension, you have no way to escape unless you also have access Kamui. =/

Also, I just provided proof that a good sensor may not be able to defend properly against it. They would just know where the attack is generally coming from. But then again this is SL where people would claim high-level sensing without validation.

Oh, I forgot you were going to limit the shadows to 1 or 2.

For #2, good point it would be best for it to be turn-based. 3 post for duration and cooldown sounds good on paper.

For #3, yeah but people don't really spam Hirashin like that. I actually dislike it when people use it as a 'get out of jail' free card one too many times, when imo it's mostly suppose to be used for offensive purposes. >.>

By the way, I know you don't like the technique, but if it ends up different than the actual Limbo and you didn't plan on using it to begin with, why care if its different? Your not the one trying to come up with ideas and weaknesses to make this thing viable across the board.

That sounds like one of those type of questions where people know the answer to but whether not say it because the answer is seems obvious. No offense.

Because it's the principle of the matter. That's like using Fireball jutsu and describing it as a water attack. Like who would sit there and accept that? =/

[Uchiha Madara]

1. Think of back when Kamui was a new thing, no one had counter measures. The only reason we have counter measures now is because people actually worked around it and didn't try to ban it immediately (or atleast to my knowledge). I bet most of those counter measures are actually due in part to jutsu like Kamui, not something that would have been around if the jutsu didn't exist.

2. Nice, soon a revision will come.

3. Not anymore after nerfing.

I was completely serious, I know if I was on the other end, I wouldn't care about this at all. If I don't like fire style jutsu, and a guy comes along with a water attack he names it Burning Hot Magma Star, I just plain wouldn't care about it as long as its not a fire jutsu.

[Mei]

1. Think of back when Kamui was a new thing, no one had counter measures. The only reason we have counter measures now is because people actually worked around it and didn't try to ban it immediately (or atleast to my knowledge). I bet most of those counter measures are actually due in part to jutsu like Kamui, not something that would have been around if the jutsu didn't exist.

2. Nice, soon a revision will come.

3. Not anymore after nerfing.

I was completely serious, I know if I was on the other end, I wouldn't care about this at all. If I don't like fire style jutsu, and a guy comes along with a water attack he names it Burning Hot Magma Star, I just plain wouldn't care about it as long as its not a fire jutsu.

For Kamui, I don't recall people trying to void that. I do know it was the intangibility part that people were voiding and I believe are still voiding. >.>

Shrug. It wouldn't be the first time I argue for/against something that doesn't affect me. I don't know. I like to see things be done fairly and accurately. Occasionally I scroll over old threads about certain jutsus or situations (for a good read) that I wished I could have commented on then. 

[Suishou Koji]

Like the Anti-Space Time Seals.

[Eric]

Like the Anti-Space Time Seals.

Speaking of those, would anti-space time measures (like seals) work against Border Jail?

[Warren]

Debatable. One would assume it'd prevent at least swapping places with the shadows since its no normal kawarimi, but depending on ones point of view you could also argue it will make shadows unable to do anything to this world and vice versa since its implied limbo is a kind of pseudo dimension of its own.