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Author Topic: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?  (Read 16299 times)

Dart Terumī

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #75 on: September 05, 2015, 11:34:07 PM »

So here's the point that you're currently contesting:

A challenger finally discovers the identity and location of a Jinchūriki. Said challenger then goes to location. Finds out that a village is in the way. One of two options presents itself: (logically and ICcly) Is the challenger strong enough to wipe out further completion and then fight the jinch? If not, then (s)he seeks entrance into the village like a *gasp!* ninja and seek out the Jinchūriki.

From there, and only there, would a fight 1v1 be *forced* despite the parameters of being in the village. At that point, I would say the Jinchūriki would recognize that the threat the challenger poses to his/her beloved village and takes the fight elsewhere. (S)He also demands the village to NOT interfere in the fight until a victor has emerged, one way or the other. If it is the Jinchūriki, then yes, parade around with the corpse and revel in your victory. If it's the challenger, well, you better learn how to get the hell of dodge if you're still trapped in the village.

That is how the situation pans out. Just like how it does for Itachi and Kisame canonically. They couldn't overpower the Leaf Jōnin and got the hell out while they still could. *Gasp!* Then they came back for another shot that was opportunistic to them!

Seriously...
I'm not trying to be an asshole; definitely very sarcastic, but none of that is impossible to comprehend.

That's the ideology that I'm proposing. Simple as that.

You cannot fight a village for a Jinchūriki, then don't incite the village to attack. By all means, you think you're all powerful and want to take on the entire village AND fight for the beastie afterwards, then go for it.

If not, then you infiltrate the location. Make friendlies if you can. Pinpoint, corner, threaten the Jinchūriki. That's when it's on the jinch to accept the match without involving anyone else as per their preferences.

Done and done.

OOC fights are even simpler. Just duke it out and continue on your merry way.

By the way, Riku, I meant that it is entirely up to the host whether the situation be IC or OOC.
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Hitler-Chan

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #76 on: September 05, 2015, 11:48:10 PM »

So here's the point that you're currently contesting:

A challenger finally discovers the identity and location of a Jinchūriki. Said challenger then goes to location. Finds out that a village is in the way. One of two options presents itself: (logically and ICcly) Is the challenger strong enough to wipe out further completion and then fight the jinch? If not, then (s)he seeks entrance into the village like a *gasp!* ninja and seek out the Jinchūriki.

From there, and only there, would a fight 1v1 be *forced* despite the parameters of being in the village. At that point, I would say the Jinchūriki would recognize that the threat the challenger poses to his/her beloved village and takes the fight elsewhere. (S)He also demands the village to NOT interfere in the fight until a victor has emerged, one way or the other. If it is the Jinchūriki, then yes, parade around with the corpse and revel in your victory. If it's the challenger, well, you better learn how to get the hell of dodge if you're still trapped in the village.

That is how the situation pans out. Just like how it does for Itachi and Kisame canonically. They couldn't overpower the Leaf Jōnin and got the hell out while they still could. *Gasp!* Then they came back for another shot that was opportunistic to them!

Seriously...
I'm not trying to be an asshole; definitely very sarcastic, but none of that is impossible to comprehend.

That's the ideology that I'm proposing. Simple as that.

You cannot fight a village for a Jinchūriki, then don't incite the village to attack. By all means, you think you're all powerful and want to take on the entire village AND fight for the beastie afterwards, then go for it.

If not, then you infiltrate the location. Make friendlies if you can. Pinpoint, corner, threaten the Jinchūriki. That's when it's on the jinch to accept the match without involving anyone else as per their preferences.

Done and done.

OOC fights are even simpler. Just duke it out and continue on your merry way.

By the way, Riku, I meant that it is entirely up to the host whether the situation be IC or OOC.

I personally like the points you are making but it comes down to something sounding good on paper, but in practice is going to cause more controversy than the second amendment of the constitution.

If those kinds of IC hunts aren't regulated, then who is to say a village isn't going to have a bias against someone who has the intention to search out one of their bijuu, even if IC they have no knowledge of it. I mean, I completely understand that a village will defend their villagers no matter what, but to accomplish that, I wouldn't doubt they aren't prepared to meta-game without any remorse.

Other than that, I have little issue with what you are dishing out.
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Warren

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2015, 11:59:05 PM »

Treat others as you wish them to treat you; if the hunters a meta-gaming prick themselves too, its just karma if they get treated similarly harshly. If they're the actually nice, behaving sort, then they might actually get in through the door instead.
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Hitler-Chan

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #78 on: September 06, 2015, 12:02:39 AM »

Treat others as you wish them to treat you; if the hunters a meta-gaming prick themselves too, its just karma if they get treated similarly harshly. If they're the actually nice, behaving sort, then they might actually get in through the door instead.

That again is assuming that the host and their village will honor that. I refuse to believe people are capable of doing anything honorable, which is why we have rules.
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Eric

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #79 on: September 06, 2015, 12:37:45 AM »

So here's the point that you're currently contesting:

A challenger finally discovers the identity and location of a Jinchūriki. Said challenger then goes to location. Finds out that a village is in the way. One of two options presents itself: (logically and ICcly) Is the challenger strong enough to wipe out further completion and then fight the jinch? If not, then (s)he seeks entrance into the village like a *gasp!* ninja and seek out the Jinchūriki.

From there, and only there, would a fight 1v1 be *forced* despite the parameters of being in the village. At that point, I would say the Jinchūriki would recognize that the threat the challenger poses to his/her beloved village and takes the fight elsewhere. (S)He also demands the village to NOT interfere in the fight until a victor has emerged, one way or the other. If it is the Jinchūriki, then yes, parade around with the corpse and revel in your victory. If it's the challenger, well, you better learn how to get the hell of dodge if you're still trapped in the village.

That is how the situation pans out. Just like how it does for Itachi and Kisame canonically. They couldn't overpower the Leaf Jōnin and got the hell out while they still could. *Gasp!* Then they came back for another shot that was opportunistic to them...


Technically Jiraiya (legendary sannin, no mere jounin) sent the two scurrying, but other than that yeah, I guess it is not too much to ask that the challengers at least try to be sneaky about it.

Be that as it may, this:

Quote
The host and the challenger, and ONLY the host and challenger, determine the nature of the challenge. BOTH decide if the match will be an IC Challenge or an OOC Challenge. This means that if an IC Challenge is chosen, the challenger has to RP learning the host’s identity and location and maneuvers him into a Match. This does not mean that the RP is used as a means for the Host to forever avoid having to face his challenger. The host must make it possible for the challenger to complete the terms of the RP event. This is not the battle part. You are going to face off with each other. You are just being creative about it.
If the OOC Challenge is chosen, then no RP concerning the challenge is performed. The details are agreed upon and the Match takes place.

Can probably be changed to something more along these lines:

The host and the challenger, and ONLY the host and challenger, determine the nature of the challenge. BOTH decide if the match will be an IC Challenge or an OOC Challenge.



The host is required to accept the challenge, presuming the judge has found neither party having run afoul. Whether the battle takes place in the area or not is determined by the challenger's and host's RP initially.

If the host offers to take the battle outside of a village and/or area populated with other human players and the challenger refuses (or does not give the host the opportunity by surprise attacking them) then the host may call upon any other players on the RP board to come to their aide if necessary. In all other cases, only the previously agreed upon number of participants (whether it 1v1 or 4v4) may participate in the ensuing battle. The agreed upon judge and the rules of biju matches have final say on all matters of disagreement between challenger and challenged.


If there are no restrictions on the number of participants, then the challenger must, as before, have knowledge of who the host of the beast is and enter the village and/or area that the host is in. However, they are not required to directly challenge the host in person, and may be subject to a village battle (if that is the setting) or other such actions from the host's village if they decide to engage recklessly. Since there are no restrictions on the number of participants, then both challenger and host can call in as much assistance as required once the fighting begins. What consists of "the fight" and "the hunt" is up to the judge if there is a discrepancy, but in general, "the hunt" is finding and challenging the host while "the fight" is the battle between challenger and host to determine the fate of the tailed beast.


If the OOC Challenge is chosen, then no RP concerning the challenge is performed. The details are agreed upon and the Match takes place. There is ABSOLUTELY NO RP involved with an OOC challenge.

Additionally, taking a look at this:

Quote
1] ºHow to Challenge a Jinchurikiº
 In order to challenge a Jinchuriki & obtain a Biju, one must extend an invitation to its host; this places you on the list of challengers that each host must update in a publicly accessibly spot. [Either as a post in this thread or on the wikia as a discussion topic on the tailed beasts page. Here]  The two will make all arrangements for when the match will begin and where. Should the Jinchuriki ignore or refuse the invitation(s)-with no reason given- 3 times consecutively, you may report it to other Jinchuriki. Subject for such an event's invitation, for proof & reference of a challenge, must be titled: (Number of tails) - (Name of Jinchuriki); the body of the message may be as you please (though manners & politeness would of course make things much smoother).

We should clarify (in accordance with the new proposal):

1] ºHow to Challenge a Jinchurikiº

If the fight is OOC (Out of Character), then a challenger must extend a formal invitiation (PM's, posts, whatever, make sure there is a record of it). The host then adds the challenger to the list, and the two begin working on details for the match.

If the fight is IC (In Character) then the challenger and/or party must make an attempt to enter into the host village, learn the host's identity, and issue the challenge directly to the jinchurikii in person. This is to be done with the intent to fight/provoke only the host (and agreed upon support if necessary. The jinchurikii must be directly approached and challenged in person, face-to-face. All actions pertaining to the challenge, except for the selection of a judge, must be done in character.
No demanding to fight the jinch outside of the jinch's presence or otherwise giving the village a reason to attack the challenging party in a challenge with participant restrictions.
Violations either by host (metagaming or otherwise encouraging the challenger's party attacked without seeming provocation, intentionally hiding to prevent the challenger from directly encountering them for an extended period of time (week IC time), etc.) or challenger (belligerently demanding to see the jinchurikii for the sake of fighting them or provoking the townspeople otherwise) will result in the appointed judge making a call on whether either or both have run afoul of the conditions of the match.
If the judge finds the jinchurikii guilty, a strip order may be placed,or the offending action rectified. if the judge finds the challenger guilty, revocation of challenger privileges (no immunity from being attacked in a match with limited participants for example) or the offending action voided and the attempt restarted. These are at the judge's discretion as to reduce bickering.


Other adjustments too can be made, but the main one I think iss making the judge decider not just in the fight itself, but in the hunts as well, in order to nip arguments more swiftly in the bud.
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Warren

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #80 on: September 06, 2015, 01:39:06 AM »

@Riku

Wasn't trying to deny the possibility. My point was that before would-be-challengers always automatically go antagonizing the hosts and their allies/village, they should sometimes consider that perhaps its actually their own behavior that's to blame for the problems, not the others'.
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KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #81 on: September 06, 2015, 01:54:31 AM »

talks real-ly slow

The poor role-player is the one who loses the match, be-cause the other guy was bet-ter.

So poor role-players do not get bi-juu.

now pay attention as I begin to talk a-bout the o-ther point.

You question-ing War-ren's con-di-tions IS the fes-ti-val. Role-playing is making be-lieve-able stor-ies to have fun.

Does the poor roleplayer lose the match because they are worse at RP, or because the odds were stacked from the beginning?

If poor roleplayers are determined by the hosts, then the hosts practically choose their successor, and "allow" whoever they want to actually have the biju (since they determine what is poor and not poor roleplay).

Now pay attention, is your priority JUST for the host to have fun in make-believe stories? Because no hunter is going to have fun if they have to completely bend over backwards to please the host before they can even get a shot at the beast.

Now, not much faster now or you might lose me, have I got it about right? And if not, maybe a different approach will get the point across better.

You are the one who needs to pay attention.

It's not about the host denying anyone anything. You find them in rp, you meet in battle, the better RPer wins. plain and simple. You are trying to say that something is amiss with that. The host doesn't determine who the better RPer is, only giving certain people chances to do the rp. Those are misinterpretations you are doggegly sticking to in order to hear yourself talk some more.
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Eric

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #82 on: September 06, 2015, 02:18:44 AM »

talks real-ly slow

The poor role-player is the one who loses the match, be-cause the other guy was bet-ter.

So poor role-players do not get bi-juu.

now pay attention as I begin to talk a-bout the o-ther point.

You question-ing War-ren's con-di-tions IS the fes-ti-val. Role-playing is making be-lieve-able stor-ies to have fun.

Does the poor roleplayer lose the match because they are worse at RP, or because the odds were stacked from the beginning?

If poor roleplayers are determined by the hosts, then the hosts practically choose their successor, and "allow" whoever they want to actually have the biju (since they determine what is poor and not poor roleplay).

Now pay attention, is your priority JUST for the host to have fun in make-believe stories? Because no hunter is going to have fun if they have to completely bend over backwards to please the host before they can even get a shot at the beast.

Now, not much faster now or you might lose me, have I got it about right? And if not, maybe a different approach will get the point across better.

You are the one who needs to pay attention.

It's not about the host denying anyone anything. You find them in rp, you meet in battle, the better RPer wins. plain and simple. You are trying to say that something is amiss with that. The host doesn't determine who the better RPer is, only giving certain people chances to do the rp. Those are misinterpretations you are doggegly sticking to in order to hear yourself talk some more.

That's funny, I coulda sworn this whole hullaboo started with the challenger not getting to the fight portion period.

Quote
...NO prior rules are broken when a host insists that legit RP occurs to hunt them down and then fight...

Quote
...The poor role-player is the one who loses the match, be-cause the other guy was bet-ter...

Quote
...People who wan to RP their bijuu should get to do it. And not have to put up with a bunch for stupidity, as Dart said...

"better RPer" is subjective from the very beginning, because the host determines what is "legit" RP and not. You've been here, you've seen enough of the madness these past few weeks (months even) to know that I am not making this up just to hear myself type/talk (I take that as an insult btw).

Cut the crap, are you going to seriously try to convince me that some hosts have not abused their power to make the IC hunt as unreasonably difficult as possible just so that they can avoid dealing with what they see as the bottom denominator? That is akin to me trying to convince me that some challengers haven't made things difficult for themselves (which is false, there have been some wretched challenger situations as well as hosts).

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KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #83 on: September 06, 2015, 02:40:32 AM »

I see you making thing more complicated than they need be. I don't like your IC rules at all.

If this and this and this ....its complicating things to death. No deals and trying to map out every possible situation in the world. That will never end.

You enter an RP and go where it leads you. Plain and simple.

The host does nto determine what legit RP is. that has been established on SL by the community for ages.

The problem comes when those five base rules are violated.
DO I really have to list them again?

1] No god modding
2] No metagaming
3] No auto hitting
4] No character control
5] No retro-posting.

How is insisting on these basic parameters giving the advantage to the host? How is the host picking and choosing who to fight and who not to fight when they are bound by these same rules as anyone else is?

Are you seriously going to tell me that you don't know what RP is?

The only time a judge should be required is when those 5 basic rules are abused.

Its BS to say...oh now...I decided only 3 people can RP this with me, when 12 people saw it happen. You pull out a bijuu in front of me and I am gonna add that event to my rp. If a host is hanging in the area of the village and chakra starts raging, most of the village warriors are going to RP investigating that.

So...we have to break our characters to fit your need to write more rules?

brilliant. I'd rather keep the old ones.
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Warren

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #84 on: September 06, 2015, 02:44:37 AM »

Fuck that, they're just as bad. Better just go each to their own or none at all.
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Eric

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #85 on: September 06, 2015, 02:59:47 AM »

...
1] No god modding
2] No metagaming
3] No auto hitting
4] No character control
5] No retro-posting.

...

A thought something was god-modding, B disagrees. Fuss ensues (we have personally been there). Without a judge (or a compromise like we came to) how do you expect something like that to be settled?

And so on and so forth with the exception of auto-hitting. I've noticed people do not tend to disagree over what auto-hitting is in biju battles.

I made the additions "complicated" because I tried to wittle down on ambiguity. I did not really add much of anything new if you read: with the exception of a few points, most of that hosts have been doing in practice since day 100. It reads to me more like an extension of the current rules.

Leave too much to ambiguity and everybody argues this definition or that is the right one. Make everything concrete and it looks like alot more than it really is. If nothing else at least have an appointed judge preside over both the fight and the RP hunt, able to settle the matter before it gets volcanic (if it does).


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Dart Terumī

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #86 on: September 06, 2015, 03:21:19 AM »

So here's the point that you're currently contesting:

A challenger finally discovers the identity and location of a Jinchūriki. Said challenger then goes to location. Finds out that a village is in the way. One of two options presents itself: (logically and ICcly) Is the challenger strong enough to wipe out further completion and then fight the jinch? If not, then (s)he seeks entrance into the village like a *gasp!* ninja and seek out the Jinchūriki.

From there, and only there, would a fight 1v1 be *forced* despite the parameters of being in the village. At that point, I would say the Jinchūriki would recognize that the threat the challenger poses to his/her beloved village and takes the fight elsewhere. (S)He also demands the village to NOT interfere in the fight until a victor has emerged, one way or the other. If it is the Jinchūriki, then yes, parade around with the corpse and revel in your victory. If it's the challenger, well, you better learn how to get the hell of dodge if you're still trapped in the village.

That is how the situation pans out. Just like how it does for Itachi and Kisame canonically. They couldn't overpower the Leaf Jōnin and got the hell out while they still could. *Gasp!* Then they came back for another shot that was opportunistic to them...


Technically Jiraiya (legendary sannin, no mere jounin) sent the two scurrying, but other than that yeah, I guess it is not too much to ask that the challengers at least try to be sneaky about it.

Be that as it may, this:

Quote
The host and the challenger, and ONLY the host and challenger, determine the nature of the challenge. BOTH decide if the match will be an IC Challenge or an OOC Challenge. This means that if an IC Challenge is chosen, the challenger has to RP learning the host’s identity and location and maneuvers him into a Match. This does not mean that the RP is used as a means for the Host to forever avoid having to face his challenger. The host must make it possible for the challenger to complete the terms of the RP event. This is not the battle part. You are going to face off with each other. You are just being creative about it.
If the OOC Challenge is chosen, then no RP concerning the challenge is performed. The details are agreed upon and the Match takes place.

Can probably be changed to something more along these lines:

The host and the challenger, and ONLY the host and challenger, determine the nature of the challenge. BOTH decide if the match will be an IC Challenge or an OOC Challenge.



The host is required to accept the challenge, presuming the judge has found neither party having run afoul. Whether the battle takes place in the area or not is determined by the challenger's and host's RP initially.

If the host offers to take the battle outside of a village and/or area populated with other human players and the challenger refuses (or does not give the host the opportunity by surprise attacking them) then the host may call upon any other players on the RP board to come to their aide if necessary. In all other cases, only the previously agreed upon number of participants (whether it 1v1 or 4v4) may participate in the ensuing battle. The agreed upon judge and the rules of biju matches have final say on all matters of disagreement between challenger and challenged.


If there are no restrictions on the number of participants, then the challenger must, as before, have knowledge of who the host of the beast is and enter the village and/or area that the host is in. However, they are not required to directly challenge the host in person, and may be subject to a village battle (if that is the setting) or other such actions from the host's village if they decide to engage recklessly. Since there are no restrictions on the number of participants, then both challenger and host can call in as much assistance as required once the fighting begins. What consists of "the fight" and "the hunt" is up to the judge if there is a discrepancy, but in general, "the hunt" is finding and challenging the host while "the fight" is the battle between challenger and host to determine the fate of the tailed beast.


If the OOC Challenge is chosen, then no RP concerning the challenge is performed. The details are agreed upon and the Match takes place. There is ABSOLUTELY NO RP involved with an OOC challenge.

Additionally, taking a look at this:

Quote
1] ºHow to Challenge a Jinchurikiº
 In order to challenge a Jinchuriki & obtain a Biju, one must extend an invitation to its host; this places you on the list of challengers that each host must update in a publicly accessibly spot. [Either as a post in this thread or on the wikia as a discussion topic on the tailed beasts page. Here]  The two will make all arrangements for when the match will begin and where. Should the Jinchuriki ignore or refuse the invitation(s)-with no reason given- 3 times consecutively, you may report it to other Jinchuriki. Subject for such an event's invitation, for proof & reference of a challenge, must be titled: (Number of tails) - (Name of Jinchuriki); the body of the message may be as you please (though manners & politeness would of course make things much smoother).

We should clarify (in accordance with the new proposal):

1] ºHow to Challenge a Jinchurikiº

If the fight is OOC (Out of Character), then a challenger must extend a formal invitiation (PM's, posts, whatever, make sure there is a record of it). The host then adds the challenger to the list, and the two begin working on details for the match.

If the fight is IC (In Character) then the challenger and/or party must make an attempt to enter into the host village, learn the host's identity, and issue the challenge directly to the jinchurikii in person. This is to be done with the intent to fight/provoke only the host (and agreed upon support if necessary. The jinchurikii must be directly approached and challenged in person, face-to-face. All actions pertaining to the challenge, except for the selection of a judge, must be done in character.
No demanding to fight the jinch outside of the jinch's presence or otherwise giving the village a reason to attack the challenging party in a challenge with participant restrictions.
Violations either by host (metagaming or otherwise encouraging the challenger's party attacked without seeming provocation, intentionally hiding to prevent the challenger from directly encountering them for an extended period of time (week IC time), etc.) or challenger (belligerently demanding to see the jinchurikii for the sake of fighting them or provoking the townspeople otherwise) will result in the appointed judge making a call on whether either or both have run afoul of the conditions of the match.
If the judge finds the jinchurikii guilty, a strip order may be placed,or the offending action rectified. if the judge finds the challenger guilty, revocation of challenger privileges (no immunity from being attacked in a match with limited participants for example) or the offending action voided and the attempt restarted. These are at the judge's discretion as to reduce bickering.


Other adjustments too can be made, but the main one I think iss making the judge decider not just in the fight itself, but in the hunts as well, in order to nip arguments more swiftly in the bud.

I like where this is going, actually.
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KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #87 on: September 06, 2015, 04:06:32 AM »

...
1] No god modding
2] No metagaming
3] No auto hitting
4] No character control
5] No retro-posting.

...

A thought something was god-modding, B disagrees. Fuss ensues (we have personally been there). Without a judge (or a compromise like we came to) how do you expect something like that to be settled?


Perhaps you should have copy pasted my whole post so you might have seen the part where I specifically mention that when these five rules are violates is the only time a judge should be brought in. What other reason might a person be getting volcanic over, exploiting their weaknesses? Denying they have any ability at all?
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Kage

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #88 on: September 06, 2015, 08:15:56 AM »

Guys, let's stay on topic here. If we're suggesting to add, edit or remove additional rules, then it's suggested that topics for each add, edit or removal be made. Unless they happen to be really-closely related to each other.

Sudden rule changes in the middle of a different topic will hardly get noticed or supported at all. If you want it to be seen and directly talked about by more people, then don't be afraid to make a topic.

As for my additional two cents, I feel that we should keep the rules, but update them for current times and specifications. Leaving them too ambiguous can make leverage for anybody to do something that is easily abuse-able. For example, the "No changing of Tailed Beasts from canon forms" can be loop-holed to allow Kurama to be split in two, since it technically is entirely possible and is a canon form of him. If anything, it proves that Tailed Beasts can be split into Yin and Yang halves.

I don't support the above loop-hole, but it is one example of many that I can think of which needs to be updated.
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Warren

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Re: Get Rid of Biju Rules? Or are major amendments the better route?
« Reply #89 on: September 06, 2015, 02:01:29 PM »

Oh they've been plenty noticed, largely abolished already, and people have been happy too.
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