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[KayentaMoenkopi]

I guess eric that is 'loosely' based off our own system of three branches...before the constitution was broken by the creation of a fourth branch.

One body to make the rules...us
one body to interpret the rules...judges[in this case they are not interpreting 'rules' but match outcomes]

one body to enforce the rules...council

I don't understand, what created 4th branch (other than the people through referendum and such) do you mean?

Out of digression though, I find it unnecessary for a separation of powers in that manner. The Council should have the ability to judge fights if called upon.

I mean Homeland Security...IE: The society for raping our rights under the guise of whatever they feel like claiming hinders our national security this week.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

If a judge is not qualified, ie: doesn't know his RP rules or jutsu, does not keep up with the activity clause, which I wish to apply to everyone to keep things moving, or is being biased and not doing a good job...then why should the host and challenger suffer because of it and 'just live with it'? What I am suggesting is sometimes the judge might just not be fit to do the job, the participants realize this too late, and should get to choose another judge who is competent. I am NOT saying they should choose a new judge just because the ruling did not do the way they wanted.

...because both participants put in time/effort to choosing/deciding the judge and then they are both going to be like...'oh that judge is incompetent.' Then why did they decide on that person being the judge then? It makes no sense.

This is a protection clause.

For instance...let us say that Warren and I are going at it for Shukaku. We choose Chusaki to be a judge. We feel he is competent. We know he is a long term member, he RPs and zones, he seems like he will be a great judge and we are both quite comfortable with him settling any issues that may come up between us.

However, it turns out that he is much too involved in getting this new house of his and pressed for time. So he does not read the RP as close as he should missing the obvious Star Trek Transporter beam that Warren used on himself to avoid my killing blow. I point it out to him and he is like, "Oh, my bad. yeah. Warren, no Star Trek Transporter beams." And Warren is like, "yeah...that was lame I will behave." and we go back to it. But Chusaki is still preoccupied now that it is time to move into that house he finally got. This time he fails to miss me using pixi dust on Warren to make him grow elephant tusks that weight 6 billion tons and pin him to the ground unable to move cause of his big teeth. Warren goes crying to Chusaki, puss baby that he is, and Chusaki it like..."well you  got hit it is fine." And totally misses the fact that I just auto hit Warren and Character controlled him with a ridiculous god mod tactic. But too bad, he is the judge and Warren just has to grin and bare it. So Warren then decides he needs to go camping for three weeks, because he is really into roughing it out at the lake and going trapping for critters. He doesn't even bother to tell anyone that he is taking off but is MIA. Well he is now 10 days without a post to the match. And I am like, "Chu...dude. do something." And Chusaki, who by now is quite busy enjoying his new life and blissful existence, even though he has limited internet service...freak...and he tells me, "God Kay. go get a life. Do you even know where your children are???" SO I gotta put up with that...he is the judge right? And I should have known he was no good at this kind of thing even though he has never demonstrated such lack of attention to detail before. And Warren finally returns, covered in his new beaver pelts and possum skin hat. He posts that he is coming directly for me...charging to slice my head off. Now...my character Hywel Rp'd with his character Hiro and learned that Grandpa...Warren that is...is really Superman and everyone knows that Superman can't do squat around kryptonite...SO Kay magically pulls a shard of Kryptonite out of her pocket...total god mod move...and waves it around...total metagamining move cause SHE didn't know he was superman and SHE didn't know that this would work...and then I post that he fails to get out of the proximity range of the green stone...total auto hit...and that Warren's body swells up and explodes killing him before he can evade...total character control...And that I extract the bijuu, seal it into myself, and exit the zone...total too many moves in one turn and attacking and exiting in the same post to a successful conclusion...and Warren goes..."OMG Chusaki, did you see that?"

And three days later Chusaki kind of reads Warren's pm and replies, "Yeah? well Kryptonite is poison to Superman, Kay wins!"

blink blink blink...

TL;DR:
You see, the host and challenger may think the judge is gonna do a great job. But it turns out they were wrong! The judge was grossly incompetent. They had no way of knowing this before the match as he always did a good job before.

Well...they should not just have to live with it.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

Additionally.

In regards to the Kyrptonite incident: It won't make Superman swell up and explode anyway, It only makes him weak. So that is not even how to use that move in the first place.

I missed that and I was the one who wrote the example!

Gross incompetence.

It happens.

[Eric]

If a judge is not qualified, ie: doesn't know his RP rules or jutsu, does not keep up with the activity clause, which I wish to apply to everyone to keep things moving, or is being biased and not doing a good job...then why should the host and challenger suffer because of it and 'just live with it'? What I am suggesting is sometimes the judge might just not be fit to do the job, the participants realize this too late, and should get to choose another judge who is competent. I am NOT saying they should choose a new judge just because the ruling did not do the way they wanted.

...because both participants put in time/effort to choosing/deciding the judge and then they are both going to be like...'oh that judge is incompetent.' Then why did they decide on that person being the judge then? It makes no sense.

This is a protection clause.

For instance...let us say that Warren and I are going at it for Shukaku. We choose Chusaki to be a judge. We feel he is competent. We know he is a long term member, he RPs and zones, he seems like he will be a great judge and we are both quite comfortable with him settling any issues that may come up between us.

However, it turns out that he is much too involved in getting this new house of his and pressed for time. So he does not read the RP as close as he should missing the obvious Star Trek Transporter beam that Warren used on himself to avoid my killing blow. I point it out to him and he is like, "Oh, my bad. yeah. Warren, no Star Trek Transporter beams." And Warren is like, "yeah...that was lame I will behave." and we go back to it. But Chusaki is still preoccupied now that it is time to move into that house he finally got. This time he fails to miss me using pixi dust on Warren to make him grow elephant tusks that weight 6 billion tons and pin him to the ground unable to move cause of his big teeth. Warren goes crying to Chusaki, puss baby that he is, and Chusaki it like..."well you  got hit it is fine." And totally misses the fact that I just auto hit Warren and Character controlled him with a ridiculous god mod tactic. But too bad, he is the judge and Warren just has to grin and bare it. So Warren then decides he needs to go camping for three weeks, because he is really into roughing it out at the lake and going trapping for critters. He doesn't even bother to tell anyone that he is taking off but is MIA. Well he is now 10 days without a post to the match. And I am like, "Chu...dude. do something." And Chusaki, who by now is quite busy enjoying his new life and blissful existence, even though he has limited internet service...freak...and he tells me, "God Kay. go get a life. Do you even know where your children are???" SO I gotta put up with that...he is the judge right? And I should have known he was no good at this kind of thing even though he has never demonstrated such lack of attention to detail before. And Warren finally returns, covered in his new beaver pelts and possum skin hat. He posts that he is coming directly for me...charging to slice my head off. Now...my character Hywel Rp'd with his character Hiro and learned that Grandpa...Warren that is...is really Superman and everyone knows that Superman can't do squat around kryptonite...SO Kay magically pulls a shard of Kryptonite out of her pocket...total god mod move...and waves it around...total metagamining move cause SHE didn't know he was superman and SHE didn't know that this would work...and then I post that he fails to get out of the proximity range of the green stone...total auto hit...and that Warren's body swells up and explodes killing him before he can evade...total character control...And that I extract the bijuu, seal it into myself, and exit the zone...total too many moves in one turn and attacking and exiting in the same post to a successful conclusion...and Warren goes..."OMG Chusaki, did you see that?"

And three days later Chusaki kind of reads Warren's pm and replies, "Yeah? well Kryptonite is poison to Superman, Kay wins!"

blink blink blink...

TL;DR:
You see, the host and challenger may think the judge is gonna do a great job. But it turns out they were wrong! The judge was grossly incompetent. They had no way of knowing this before the match as he always did a good job before.

Well...they should not just have to live with it.

... Wow. You could have probably solved that from the get-go by having all of that stuff be against the rules of zone fighting and have a Council member strip a biotch (or ban from continuing to challenge) instead of waiting for Chusaku to make an intelligent move.

Make that kind of stuff against the rules and an incompetent judge is only a step-stone problem. "Thee cannot god-mode without permission of thine partner". ^_^

[KayentaMoenkopi]

Well are they not against the rules of RP already? And your opponent committing such an offense...is that not the REASON we have a judge in the first place? To step in and say, "no...you did something not permitted in RP. Your move is not valid."

• No god modding
• No character controlling
• No auto hitting
• No metagaming
• No attacks on an entry post
• No attacks and successful get-aways all in one post

Violating such things is an issue that a participant takes to the judge during the match. One assumes the judge they pick is competent and will make rulings against these issues of fowl play during the match. I mean what do you have to find fault with and ask a judge to step in for if not a violation of things like this?

And if that judge totally fails, despite your hopes that he will do a good job...cause why would I back a judge I thought was an idiot...then I should not be penalized for HIS incompetence. I did my part, but he seriously dropped the ball.

And your suggestion, having a council member step in and lay down the law? This is pretty much having a council member judge a bijuu match. I want a judge to be a judge and a council member to be a council member. Banning someone for being a total failure at RP? *snort*

Let's not go there.

Shall we not just say a judge judges matches, and if they suck at it he can be replaced? And I mean totally suck at it, not just giving a ruling that doesn't agree with my opinion. Stuff that people would look at and literally face palm and say, "WTF???? That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Obvious OMG my eyes...my eyes...I didn't just see that!"

[Eric]

... Banning someone for being a total failure at RP? *snort*

Let's not go there...

No worse than keeping someone who is a total failure at RP from getting a chance at the beast. It is no worse than penalizing someone who is bad at RPing with the "official" crowd who don't even put down their own rules (explicit, seriously, that no god-modding line is so vague in an actual fight that implementation is practically opinion based, hence why judges can possibly be bad. You can't just say "no this" and "no that" without explaining, in context, to people what this and that are without there being confusion).

No worse than penalizing a poor reader in a discussion by disregarding his/her opinion in a read-heavy setting like text roleplaying.

It is no worse than weeding out the "baddies" with a super hard IC hunt. No worse than making people conform to temperamental and variable RP rules, and then punishing them when they don't get it right (I.E, judges being judges and general RPers being general RPers).

If a host does not know how to RP, much less zone, then he/she should not be a host. Same goes for challengers. This is something that I thought most people tended to agree with in one way or another.

And if that judge totally fails, despite your hopes that he will do a good job...cause why would I back a judge I thought was an idiot...then I should not be penalized for HIS incompetence. I did my part, but he seriously dropped the ball.

Back squarely on topic though, if half of the participants agree with the ruling and half don't, then the judges' ruling is final. Tough luck, pick another judge, you can't remove that one for gross incompetence when half (be it 1 in a 2-man match or 3 in a 6-man match) of the participants agree with the judge.

The judge's opinion is treated as law in the RP, it can alone decide the fate of the RP. That opinion can be steeped in so much contradiction (shadow imitation works in no light conditions because rock considered shadow. Shikamaru becomes unable to use shadow imitation in perfectly dark room 'cause he is a canon-level scrub?) that even if it were to be wrong, as long as one participant benefits he/she has no reason to say no to it.

I am all for making an listing out, explicitly, all the things you can't do in a zone fight. Flaying out what god-modding is wikia style, so that there is no mistake, and so that a judge actually has something to go by other than personal opinion. So that participants have something to go by other than, "that's the way we been doin' it, that's how it's going down now".

This shouldn't be the backyard kiddie pool level of RP where zoners do whatever they want/can get away with, this is supposed to be "high level", "official" RP that has a set of followable guidelines and rules that are not as vague as the distance between three points in an undefined plane. Ya you know that distance is the distance between them, but how can you tell what the distance is if the plane is undefined?

[Mei]

Shall we not just say a judge judges matches, and if they suck at it he can be replaced? And I mean totally suck at it, not just giving a ruling that doesn't agree with my opinion. Stuff that people would look at and literally face palm and say, "WTF? That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Obvious OMG my eyes...my eyes...I didn't just see that!"

I feel like your example is such an extreme case that it would rarely, if not never, happen. But then again, that's the whole point of having a second opinion.
Now if the second opinion ruled in favor of the 1st judge, then that should be it.
What are the odds of having two grossly incompetent judges? =/

[UettoSenju]

The word of the judge should be law in these matters I feel. You both agreed upon the judge and therefore should deal with whatever comes. SO the judge makes a mistake... well that is human. They are the judge enough said.

The only reason they should be replaced is because they have went inactive or step down them self.

And like I said before I don't believe a council man should be a judge because of one very simply fact. Judges are bashed and slandered at SL like crazy... you let one of the judges get bashed enough by being a judge in a match and it will show in their council rulings. I think you could refer to it as getting even. Now regardless of all that it was voted I believe for judges to not be active councilmen. Perhaps, someone should call for a re-vote if such is allowed on the matter but until then I say stop beating that dead horse cause it gets us nowhere in progressing.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

I feel like your example is such an extreme case that it would rarely, if not never, happen. But then again, that's the whole point of having a second opinion.
Now if the second opinion ruled in favor of the 1st judge, then that should be it.
What are the odds of having two grossly incompetent judges? =/

So Mei, how is that second opinion different from the option to boot a judge one time for gross incompetence? If the second opinion differs from the first, we certainly are not just going to go with the decision of the first judge are we?

And Eric?

No worse than keeping someone who is a total failure at RP from getting a chance at the beast. It is no worse than penalizing someone who is bad at RPing with the "official" crowd who don't even put down their own rules (explicit, seriously, that no god-modding line is so vague in an actual fight that implementation is practically opinion based, hence why judges can possibly be bad. You can't just say "no this" and "no that" without explaining, in context, to people what this and that are without there being confusion).

No worse than penalizing a poor reader in a discussion by disregarding his/her opinion in a read-heavy setting like text roleplaying.

It is no worse than weeding out the "baddies" with a super hard IC hunt. No worse than making people conform to temperamental and variable RP rules, and then punishing them when they don't get it right (I.E, judges being judges and general RPers being general RPers).

If a host does not know how to RP, much less zone, then he/she should not be a host. Same goes for challengers. This is something that I thought most people tended to agree with in one way or another.

We have no rule to keep anyone from getting a chance
We do not have rules to penalize poor readers either.

Seriously, have you been snubbing people based on their level of RP skills? Shame on you.

However, Penalize someone during an RP event...I think that comment is a gross exaggeration and twisting of what occurs. When I RP with someone who claims knowledge of stuff they should not, I let them know that is not acceptable and will have to repost. [metagaming] When someone messages me with instant hugs or groping...*shudder*...I basically evade like a ninja and avoid the successful hit. [auto-hitting] When someone ignores my ability to use powers, posts actions for me, I also correct them. [character control] And when they use powers that result in unavoidable consequences for me, negating any possibility of a counter, I also correct them [god-modding]. And you can believe that this is how they react to me when I cross those same lines.

[Eric]

... We have no rule to keep anyone from getting a chance
We do not have rules to penalize poor readers either.

Seriously, have you been snubbing people based on their level of RP skills? Shame on you...

IC hunts require good reading ability in order to get through. If someone cannot read very well, then they will make posts that make very little sense. If they are also very stubborn and blockheaded then that will only exasperate the problem. Such people have been weened out by IC hunt conditions (you have to do this, then this, and then this, but no, you didn't do that right) enough times for my assertion to be more than personal experience.

A poor RPer, writer even if he/she cannot express their opinion right, will never get a judge to rule in their favor unless the other RPer is either just as bad or incredibly out of line. You can read over the rules we have somewhat agreed on so far, but be it OOC or IC, bad RPers are not likely to get tailed beasts because the beasts are considered to be top-tier level prizes.

Disbelieve me still? If you can't read well, then you will have difficulty RPing traditionally (I guess you could have text read to you by the computer, but still) because more likely than not, you will also not be all that good at writing (granted, you could dictate to the computer what to type for you).

Give me one great RPer, host to narrow it down, who is demonstratively bad at reading comprehension and writing. Just one.

...However, Penalize someone during an RP event...I think that comment is a gross exaggeration and twisting of what occurs...

What happens if, due to a lack of understanding of what was done wrong, someone continues to insist that he/she is right? A judge may step in, rule out of their favor, and penalize them with an autohit/autododge whatever. That's the way biju matches work.

In regular RP some RPers just outright quit playing with the other person. You may very well be among the others in that group, but in a biju match with a judge, you DO get penalized for making bad decisions in the fight/hunt/RP.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

I have lost the point of this thread and will check back later to see if something pertinent is being said about how to judge a match rather than just arguing over if someone knows how to read and if we have been butt heads to them.

[Eric]

I have lost the point of this thread and will check back later to see if something pertinent is being said about how to judge a match rather than just arguing over if someone knows how to read and if we have been butt heads to them.

And your suggestion, having a council member step in and lay down the law? This is pretty much having a council member judge a bijuu match. I want a judge to be a judge and a council member to be a council member. Banning someone for being a total failure at RP? *snort*

Let's not go there.

The point that I was trying to make in the previous two posts is that this is a ridiculous statement becuase we are already there. Judges make rulings based on what they feel is legit, not what IS actually legit, because what actually IS legit is dependent on who you RP with on this site. If one participant and a judge agree to a terrible decision, then the other participant has no choice but to accept it with the way the rules are now, and how they were before.

Therefore, I had proposed that a system be put in place outlining exactly what is and isn't considered legit, so the judge is going off of more than just "what I think is right".

I will use an example we were both involved in to highlight my point, though it seems your posts have wandered off:

http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8319.0.html

By all intents and purposes, Masane (and others) are in agreement with Kishimoto's interpretation of shadow imitation, in that it cannot be used in complete and utter darkness of any sort. This is supported by the usage of light to strengthen the techniques and the novels where Shikamaru could not use shadow imitation in an extremely dark room without a light source (no doubt the building had to be hit by some light, by SL logic generating a shadow that completely covered the room).

Since canon logic generally trumps custom (and even real-world) logic in Official rulings, by all intents and purposes the ruling should have went to Masane for the Official fight. However, as can be read, it didn't, and I lived to shadow hax another round or two, likely directlying leading to Masane's eventual forfeit.

The judge wasn't grossly incompetent nor the challenger terrible, it's just that since it takes the consent of both participants to boot the judge, then a disagreeable (in hindsight) ruling by the judge going entirely on instinct alone can stand if the one standing to benefit the most from it does not disagree with the ruling.

Speaking of that, for Official Judging, should canon, narutoverse logic be weighed equally, greater than, or less than real world logic when the canon logic leaves gaps in answers to questions?

[KayentaMoenkopi]

we will be subjected to continued talk about standardizing rp after that was voted out in every topic we check?

[Eric]

we will be subjected to continued talk about standardizing rp after that was voted out in every topic we check?

Meh, at this point if it has been voted against then what remains of the dicussion will be here for the record. You know how we forum types have a tendency to quote ourselves instead of repeat ourselves when possible.

Besides, with IC fights out of the bucket, maybe the OOC fights won't need as much standardization cause there is only the beast at risk. I don't have the motivation to regulate just OOC matches as much as IC and OOC matches.