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Author Topic: A Numbers Game  (Read 6127 times)

UettoSenju

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2016, 04:53:18 AM »

To be blunt the system is a fail.

There is no way to apply such a system in SL logic.

In order to do so youd have to look at everybody being on equal terms as far as attributes go. People will argue well my natural speed is faster than yours so blah blah blah. Well I trained ex amount so blah blah blah.

A multiply system only works when you have something to multiply.

Say Bocc and Uetto where fighting. Bocc uses lightening release which grant a x3, for example. Uetto uses a gate which grants x1.5. I could argue that that due to Uetto's natural and highly trained speed abilities that my x1.5 enhance makes me faster than his x3 enhance. And this could be true if Uetto actually is a lot faster than him regularly.
Let's say we used attribute points here at SL then the system would work because we would have something to do the math with.
Normal Speeds=
Uetto- 19/20
Bocc-10/20
Enhanced Speeds=
Uetto-
19+(19x1.5)
47.5
Bocc-
10+(10x3)
40.0
Speed Winner= Uetto

Without these numbers to figure in the system just falls apart by the opinion of who is naturally faster. Its the same argument as now just asked in a different way. Thus nothing has been resolved.


Now in terms of jutsu this x(whatever) system kinda works. Because we have a thing called jutsu ranks. Its commonly known how strong the jutsu being used is most of the time.
For example. We know that is I use a d rank fireball jutsu to counter another fireball jutsu at c rank I'm probably gonna have a bad day. However I use a x3 drank jutsu to counter with it would probably rise in rank strength to brank or so. Thus making it a successful counter.

Of course all jutsu work different and this must be taken into consideration when analising the two jutsu but I think the 'jiff' of it is easy to understand.
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UettoSenju

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2016, 05:07:14 AM »

Also the a+(ab) math equation is the proper one to use here not a(n) ab one.

For the simple reason of the system calling for  x.5 or x1 it does not cause a decrease or stall.

Regardless if you decided to just use >1.

Because it is just better math. We must always assume there could be a ≤1.

Using a x.5 as example with 5 attribute points:
a+(ab)= 5+(5.5)=7.5 {a rise in attribute}
ab=5.5=2.5 {a decline in attribute}
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 05:10:06 AM by UettoSenju »
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Rusaku

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2016, 05:14:01 AM »

To be blunt the system is a fail.

There is no way to apply such a system in SL logic.

In order to do so youd have to look at everybody being on equal terms as far as attributes go. People will argue well my natural speed is faster than yours so blah blah blah. Well I trained ex amount so blah blah blah.

A multiply system only works when you have something to multiply.

Say Bocc and Uetto where fighting. Bocc uses lightening release which grant a x3, for example. Uetto uses a gate which grants x1.5. I could argue that that due to Uetto's natural and highly trained speed abilities that my x1.5 enhance makes me faster than his x3 enhance. And this could be true if Uetto actually is a lot faster than him regularly.
Let's say we used attribute points here at SL then the system would work because we would have something to do the math with.
Normal Speeds=
Uetto- 19/20
Bocc-10/20
Enhanced Speeds=
Uetto-
19+(19x1.5)
47.5
Bocc-
10+(10x3)
40.0
Speed Winner= Uetto

Without these numbers to figure in the system just falls apart by the opinion of who is naturally faster. Its the same argument as now just asked in a different way. Thus nothing has been resolved.


Now in terms of jutsu this x(whatever) system kinda works. Because we have a thing called jutsu ranks. Its commonly known how strong the jutsu being used is most of the time.
For example. We know that is I use a d rank fireball jutsu to counter another fireball jutsu at c rank I'm probably gonna have a bad day. However I use a x3 drank jutsu to counter with it would probably rise in rank strength to brank or so. Thus making it a successful counter.

Of course all jutsu work different and this must be taken into consideration when analyzing the two jutsu but I think the 'jiff' of it is easy to understand.

Ok you say it's a fail and could never work without giving numbers to each player for every stat, yet Sage mode seems to work swimmingly? I have yet to see any arguments based around how that multiplier works, but here it's just impossible to apply. Lel, ight homie. Wanna provide some kind of alternative then? Obviously gates and chakra armor have no effect on techniques whatsoever, only tailed beast chakra and sage mode does, and apparently tails beast stuff is handled elsewhere. So what? We just kinda guess who is faster when people start building stacks? Who's faster if I use Raiton chakra mode, Sage mode and Tailed beast mode compared to 7th gate and Raiton chakra mode?

Truth be told, I 100% consider everyone to be the same when entering into a zone fight. Unless you can prove to me through some form of eye witness account or tangible Rp's that you have trained something to the point of being considered a cut above even the gods that walk among us, then we are the same. The only time I take into consideration a person's talent is with techniques, because everyone has a niche. Uzumaki have sealing, Bocc has fire, Kirk had Mokuton and other stuffs. Those are things we just understand. Stats on the other hand are very...disingenuous. SL is not a perfect system, and never will be. All we can do is try to make it better.
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Eric

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2016, 05:18:26 AM »

All the things bijuu are being handled in our secret new rules cabal. So don't worry about needing any of the bijuu or things like that it is all being discussed.

I do not think how much power the beast gives you (especially in a numerical sense) is being discusssed at all at the moment.

Personally, as Uetto said, if you're going to have multipliers, you need to multiply them by something else in order for the whole shabang to work. If individual number stats is too forumy for most people and the math more work than people want to put in, I don't see the logic in trying to quantify the power-ups while the discussion of quantifying player characters is not up for debate at the same time.
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Warren

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2016, 05:24:43 AM »

Yes, guessing/going with the flow is in fact how it goes, and how it should go. Like wtf man, you try pull something like this then you effectively kill the point of fighting, the person with more stacks will just win no matter what anyway so there's no point to even try, all they have to do is "I win because numbers".
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Keito Uzumaki

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2016, 05:30:40 AM »

Now this is something worth talking about. A proper analysis needs both, Quantitative and Qualitative data. And for us to be keeping track of such during out turns, would prevent from any *coughs* ahem, excuse my cussing, "ass-pulls".

I didn't quite read everyone's response but the initial opening so I'll have to get back on my own whacky ideas. Otherwise, its a good point to be made since most of what we've been following is just hearsay from the most credible source. Add levels and modifiers to chakra capacity to be able to tell just how much someone can dish out before they need to call it a day. As well as how taxing specific techniques may be under the different circumstances. We of course all zone differently, yet the 'calculations' would help keep the varying styles on track in the sense of legitimacy.
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UettoSenju

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2016, 05:33:45 AM »

If simply always rped it as it increases your stuff rather simple really.

Is it really that hard to compromise on such things with each other?

You want a suggestion? Here you go... Don't stack shit to the moon and back and don't accept rp from those who do. Either use one or the other.

Its all pretty simple. Just get back to rping and having fun instead of fussing and concentrating on petty stuff.
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UettoSenju

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2016, 05:36:06 AM »

Yes, guessing/going with the flow is in fact how it goes, and how it should go. Like wtf man, you try pull something like this then you effectively kill the point of fighting, the person with more stacks will just win no matter what anyway so there's no point to even try, all they have to do is "I win because numbers".

Exactly. Rp talent and skill will be lost because my status stack better than yours do. No more strategy or having to plan ten jutsu ahead for a trap outcome. Zoning and fighting would become pointless.
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UettoSenju

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2016, 05:38:26 AM »

Yes, guessing/going with the flow is in fact how it goes, and how it should go. Like wtf man, you try pull something like this then you effectively kill the point of fighting, the person with more stacks will just win no matter what anyway so there's no point to even try, all they have to do is "I win because numbers".

Exactly. Rp talent and skill will be lost because my status stack better than yours do. No more strategy or having to plan ten jutsu ahead for a trap outcome. Zoning and fighting would become pointless.

Before long we will see auto-hits as legit things cause someone stack equal up to high to be logic to be able to dodge so it is unable to be avoided. The very definition of auto-hit.

Here goes one for you stacking should be considered god-mod.
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KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2016, 05:41:55 AM »

I still have to say that the manga is broke.

and by the tail logic, shukaku is not even gate worthy. and that is just not so.

If Kyuubi is so powerful, and i know that he is, then how does anyone ever beat his host?

It is an interesting notion. I do like numbers, but as Warren says, they are not permitting the flexibility which comes with skill and creativity of strategy. Not every situation can a player just bull their way through.

I would like to see it worked on, just for the sake of curiosity. I do not think it is a total waste of time doomed to failure and is worth exploring.

ah there goes the snow plow down the road again. so noisy.

Something to keep in mind, once you start quantifying things, then everything will have to be. All jutsu, armor, weapons, tools...and an expense account kept.
Ex: I get to use 27 chakra points, and once they are gone I fall into a stupor or if I go beyond that die due to chakra depletion. SO my S rank jutsu cost 10, my A cost 8, the B are 6, C 4, D2, E1. any combo adds up to 27, I am done. Pretend I have to have 4 to sustain life...my total pool is 31.

And that is just usage of chakra.

Then you have damage, damage reduction items and jutsu to account for and all manner of....well just go see a DnD manual. Its quite convoluted when you start assigning number values to RP.

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Mei

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2016, 07:51:29 AM »

While kurama obviously has more chakra than the rest. (It's a fact. There's no sense in arguing it) Should we not 'nerf' him in a sense so that all bijuu give equal amount of 'boost'

Initial Jinchūriki Form
Version 1 Cloak
partial transformations
Version 2 Cloak
Tailed Beast Mode

^ That does make it much simpler than tail by tail.

I agree with this. It's simple and fair. Not everything we do on SL even reflects properly from Naruto anyway.


Gates: (Speed/Strength only)
  • First: x2
  • Second: No boost, limited healing qualities
  • Third: x2.5
  • Fourth: x3
  • Fifth: x3.5
  • Sixth: x4
  • 7th: x4.5
  • 8th: x100+


Tailed beast enhancements. (Applies to Strength, Speed, and Chakra based abilities)
  • Initial form: x.5
  • First tail: x2
  • Second tail: x2.5
  • Third tail: x3.5
  • 4th tail: x5
  • 5th tail: x6
  • Sixth tail: x6.5
  • Seventh tail: x7
  • Eighth tail: x7.5
  • Ninth tail (I.e Tailed beast cloak): x10


Nature based Chakra Modes:
  • 5x enhancement. (Varies between chakra natures)

Plus, it doesn't make sense how Tails 4 to 8 gets a bigger boost than Gate 7. >.>
Same with the Nature-based Chakra Mode.

Also, I thought we were in agreement that tailed beast chakra does not enhance your ninjutsu. http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8809.15.html
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 07:55:14 AM by Mei »
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Keito Uzumaki

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2016, 07:58:13 AM »

Is this not why the SL Forums exists? Clearly RP exists of some kind on these boards as those who do test out whatever methods they might. Such is an example for the Hunters Guild, such can be an example for what is being proposed here. At least, it is being proposed instead of just implemented in-game which would receive far worse reactions from the same people. If it ain't your cup of tea I guess just move one. But the entire concept can be adjusted and fixed to a standard liking that we could follow. I'm not advocating a lol-numbers to prove something, more so the numbers to keep track of things. As explained by Kay,
Something to keep in mind, once you start quantifying things, then everything will have to be. All jutsu, armor, weapons, tools...and an expense account kept.
Ex: I get to use 27 chakra points, and once they are gone I fall into a stupor or if I go beyond that die due to chakra depletion. SO my S rank jutsu cost 10, my A cost 8, the B are 6, C 4, D2, E1. any combo adds up to 27, I am done. Pretend I have to have 4 to sustain life...my total pool is 31.

minor calculations like such would be nice to see during zones so people don't go beyond the extraordinary dishing out S ranked moves one after the other without a sweat. Resiliency is nice to see as well, followed with a balancing of skills. Say one has a high chakra pool but trade's off overall stamina or something along those lines. This way it could prevent one from just having 999,999,999 in any category. Otherwise I don't think chakra pools around the 30's would suffice with the norms of SL these days. Besides everyone wants to claim Uzumaki or even Senju blood just to be able to lol-claim lots of chakra supply. >>; I mean seriously you mutts.
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Kage

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2016, 08:53:50 AM »

Attempting to quantify into numbers the power of enhancement of the Tailed Beasts is only asking for various other things to be quantified as well.

Like Perfect Susanoo, that simply chops through two mountains just by drawing it's sword.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-589-page-8.html

Some might even take Madara's words as fact in saying that the power of the Tailed Beasts pales in comparison to it.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-589-page-10.html

And then there's the fact that Madara combines his Susanoo with Kurama
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-622-page-4.html
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-622-page-6.html

Naruto and Sasuke do this too, and completely wipe through Sage of Six Paths Obito with it
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-652-page-18.html

There's also the fact that Sage Art Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands was able to ward-off multiple Tailed Beast Balls fired-off by Susanoo-enhanced Kurama
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-627-page-6.html

Those with the Six Paths Chakra and Six Paths Sage Chakra will also want the quantification treatment

So what's my overall power multiplier like with my stats?
Six Paths Sage Chakra + Perfect Susanoo Sage Mode = x50?
Takehaya Susanoo (Six Paths Sage Chakra + Perfect Susanoo + Six Paths Sage Chakra-enhanced Wood Release: Wood Human Technique) = x100?

I think we should accept that Sage Mode > normal mode, since it's stated to be a different dimension of power. This is an even stronger point when it comes to the fact that only those that perform Senjutsu could actually hurt Sage of Six Paths Obito and Madara. (Six Paths Chakra in Sasuke's case allowed him to hurt Madara too.)

Just keep using a bit of intuition and logic to say what is stronger than something else, because some of us are good at slapping things together to make an even bigger multiplier for ourselves. Otherwise literally kicking someone to the moon is within the realm of possibility.

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Becquerel

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2016, 01:54:19 PM »

Well, I went through and read this topic and wanted to say my mind on the subject.

The hardest thing about 'boosters' in this game is that you're trying to quantify some qualitative data. It's like you're saying that your character is blue, but when you add a power-up, he becomes 10 time more blue. It doesn't really make much sense. This has been discussed earlier by a few people, and has been discussed in previous topics as well.

If we were to actually add stats to the game, it would cause a great strive between people who would advocate for numbers and those who wouldn't. Kind of like there was when the whole tailed beast OOC/IC thing happened. As Warren explained, it would be extremely insane to actually apply numbers to every little thing. Not only that, but there'd also be the lot of people complaining that they should have all the max level stuff because reasons.

In the end, I believe this should all fall into the hands of the player to decide what each boost does. I'll use my character Becquerel as an example. I know that he's rather fast normally, able to maintain sprinting speeds indefinitely. But if I were to use his boosters, he'd basically become faster than the eye can see (which can be bad, because even his eyes can't see what he's boosting towards at these speeds) which puts him at kind of a "flash-step"/"Soru"/InsertFastAnimeMoveHere level. He is also extremely strong, able to leap great bounds and lift many tons with ease, but this too can be helped through the use of the boosters to basically make any strike that lands lethal.

The reason why I say this is because even though Becquerel on paper is an extremely powerful being, I make sure to keep him in check and not abuse that ability. I know it's not fun if people are always going against an unbeatable foe, and personally, it's not fun to always win. I almost never go for lethal attacks even though, in theory, Becquerel could 'GG no re' a lot of people very easily. There's no fun in that.

So, I know I kind of went off tangent there...But for the people that want to use numbers, by all means go ahead and use them. But, at the same time, you shouldn't expect people to conform to your number rules if they don't want to. It's a nice thing to have if you and your fellow ninja decide to go with numbers, that way you can kind of make sense of stuff.

And I agree with Kayenta and Kage on the fact that the manga was pretty crazy when it came to power. When the manga started, it was impressive for Zabuza to be swinging around that giant sword. Then towards the end, Naruto was busting through meteors like there was no issue. So it's okay if you make your character powerful, but they should still be touchable.
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KayentaMoenkopi

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Re: A Numbers Game
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2016, 05:29:37 PM »

yes, touching is good.

As for numbers. I think another thing to consider is the issue of percentile drainage of one's chakra pool.

say we all agree that summoning a bijuu uses 20% of my chakra. And for an opponent to potentially dispel my controlling genjutsu over it, it costs them 20% of their chakra.

sounds fair? cost the same to use as to cancel it, right?

Well, 20% of my chakra pool could be a larger amount than 20% of your chakra pool, yes? So in the end, it does not cost the same to start or dispel the same technique.

Let's put some BS numbers based on nothing into the mix as an example:

Kay's pool = 100 points
Your pool = 80 points.

Kay's summons cost: 20% of 100 = 20 points.
Your dispelling cost: 20% of 80 = 16 points.

Well wow. I have more chakra than you but it costs me more points to do the same tech?
hrm...
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