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[KayentaMoenkopi]

I was admitted to the hospital last night. Thought I had a mini-stroke. So it took a while to read up on the discussions. Let me address those here now.

How did the Council Do?
~I believe they did just fine with what they had to work with. Activity could have been better. I do not believe anyone has set themselves up as a dictator.

Does the council handle mass redistribution of bijuu?
~Well, NO. That was not made one of their responsibilities. Bocchiere gave his bijuu to the council to handle. So that is why they are now handling it.

Transparency:
~I think this is hugely important. We need to see what is being discussed and why decisions are made. This helps us to understand that proper care and consideration for all aspects of an issue has been given. It will also squash our natural tendency to suspect corruption.

Council Only Threads:
~I believe that when a thread is made that says council only that people should stay out of it. We do not have any idiots on the council. We do not have any people on the council who are clueless about the issues of the day. What we have are ethical people who do open discussions up in order to gain input for the community on issues. SO here is where the community needs to keep their panties from getting into a bunch and trust that our time to speak will be given, once the council gets a chance to organize their thoughts and find a direction to proceed forward. Continuous intrusions into a council only thread leaves the council only one choice...hidden deliberations.

Proposals:

Structure:

• Primary Chamber: These are the elected 5 council members. They make rulings based on existing rules, or improvise if no rule exists to handle the current issue. In such a case, after the ruling is made, a new rule thread will be made for the community to either adopt this method into the rule set, or to create a different rule to handle the surprise issue. Other duties can and should certainly be assigned to this chamber of the council. For instance, certainly they may have to step in and enforce a rule upon members of the lower chamber. I look for the duties of this chamber of the council to evolve overtime as each new duty comes to light and needs to be determined who will handle it. In order to stay unbiased, no host, summoners, village/organization leaders who may have a personal stake in the fate of a bijuu.
  
  
• Secondary Chamber: This consists of any number of volunteers who will act as judges, not only for bijuu matched but sparing in general. A pledge of activity is assumed. These are people who are willing to lend a hand, are knowledgeable about the canon and creative aspects of SL, and have a general love of giving of their time. Activities may include, judging matches, spars, commenting on rules, deliberating with Primary Chamber issues upon request. Members can be anyone, prior or current hosts, village/organization leaders. If we have a large enough pool of volunteers, then we should be able to avoid situations like...Suna's Kage judging a bijuu match with a Suna warrior involved. Such conflicts of interests should be self-monitored and then to decline participation in that specific conflicting issue. Barring self-monitoring, certainly community objection would be acknowledged and a suitable judge found.
  
  
• The Community: Yes that is for us all. And we can help make rules, give input on issues, bring issues to the general public or the council to sort out, and dare I say it...commit to a level of activity just because we enjoy being here and making things happen.

Elections:
~The council should be made of 5 members to be elected in January and June of each year. In the event of inactivity, the council will appoint a volunteer to take the place of the inactive members.

Current Issues:
~All council members must participate in each issue that is brought before them to deliberate and make a decision upon. Each issue should start as an open thread so that all concerned parties within the community can voice their thoughts upon the matter. After this, the thread should be closed to council members only to make their rulings. Issue should be handled in the following manner:

• Fact finding: open thread for community comment.
• Deliberation: closed thread for council member only discussion.
• Ruling: announcement of the voted upon decision should be posted to the end of the thread which is then locked.
• Court of Appeals: dissatisfied person may appeal a decision IF and ONLY IF, they have something new and illuminating to contribute to the prior discussions that brought about the ruling. This is not to be used to cry baby about things not going our own way and to just keep repeating ourselves.

[Eric]

Proposals:

Structure:

• Primary Chamber: These are the elected 5 council members. They make rulings based on existing rules, or improvise if no rule exists to handle the current issue. In such a case, after the ruling is made, a new rule thread will be made for the community to either adopt this method into the rule set, or to create a different rule to handle the surprise issue. Other duties can and should certainly be assigned to this chamber of the council. For instance, certainly they may have to step in and enforce a rule upon members of the lower chamber. I look for the duties of this chamber of the council to evolve overtime as each new duty comes to light and needs to be determined who will handle it. In order to stay unbiased, no host, summoners, village/organization leaders who may have a personal stake in the fate of a bijuu.
  
  
• Secondary Chamber: This consists of any number of volunteers who will act as judges, not only for bijuu matched but sparing in general. A pledge of activity is assumed. These are people who are willing to lend a hand, are knowledgeable about the canon and creative aspects of SL, and have a general love of giving of their time. Activities may include, judging matches, spars, commenting on rules, deliberating with Primary Chamber issues upon request. Members can be anyone, prior or current hosts, village/organization leaders. If we have a large enough pool of volunteers, then we should be able to avoid situations like...Suna's Kage judging a bijuu match with a Suna warrior involved. Such conflicts of interests should be self-monitored and then to decline participation in that specific conflicting issue. Barring self-monitoring, certainly community objection would be acknowledged and a suitable judge found.
  
  
• The Community: Yes that is for us all. And we can help make rules, give input on issues, bring issues to the general public or the council to sort out, and dare I say it...commit to a level of activity just because we enjoy being here and making things happen.

Elections:
~The council should be made of 5 members to be elected in January and June of each year. In the event of inactivity, the council will appoint a volunteer to take the place of the inactive members.

Current Issues:
~All council members must participate in each issue that is brought before them to deliberate and make a decision upon. Each issue should start as an open thread so that all concerned parties within the community can voice their thoughts upon the matter. After this, the thread should be closed to council members only to make their rulings. Issue should be handled in the following manner:

• Fact finding: open thread for community comment.
• Deliberation: closed thread for council member only discussion.
• Ruling: announcement of the voted upon decision should be posted to the end of the thread which is then locked.
• Court of Appeals: dissatisfied person may appeal a decision IF and ONLY IF, they have something new and illuminating to contribute to the prior discussions that brought about the ruling. This is not to be used to cry baby about things not going our own way and to just keep repeating ourselves.

1) Primary Chamber:

What kind of rulings are the Council members making here? Are they essentially the rule enforcers (the vibe i"m getting) who have the power to declare strippings and awards that result from strippings? If that's the case, then when do they use that power? On issues brought to their attention, or can they find an issue on their own and make a ruling on it?

2) Secondary Chamber

Are jinchurikii allowed into this chamber? Whether they are or not, it was hard enough finding 5-ish interested people to be on the Council when it consisted only of the Primary Chamber members. Biju matters, both the getting the biju and the making rulings on rule breakings, would need to be shown to be straightforward and filled with less heartache than the past in order to attract enough members to adequately fill both branches. This branch in particular has a wider pool, but there have to be 5 active, willing Primary members who are neither jinchurikii nor kage.

3) The Community

Help make the rules? Do you mean make the rules, essentially? In the previous/current iteration of the biju council, the council members were not able to explicitly create new rules, but rather, the community as a whole did that in a manner similar to the Great Biju Discussions of mid-2016. I think that should not change, although a commitment to a level of activity will probably have to be different here than it would be for the Primary and Secondary chambers of the Council.

4) Elections

I think it would be more efficient to have the "backup" Primary members be selected from the pool of Secondary members, if possible. As long as the member in mind fulfills the requirements for the Primary chamber, I think picking from Secondary members would expedite the process.

I personally think every 6 months is a little long; I think every 3 or 4 months is more reasonable, since essentially this locks the Council members each into a 6 month long commitment that, knowing that life happens (school, medical emergencies, etc.) it is much easier to bow out gracefully without having to outright step down if the intervals between elections are more evenly spaced.

5) Current Issues

I am not of the mind that an Appeals Court is really necessary. After all delibrations and such, I think the ruling should be pretty much final. No need to invite the birds with that can of worms.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

I was admitted to the hospital last night. Thought I had a mini-stroke. So it took a while to read up on the discussions. Let me address those here now.

I just would like to take time to express my gratitude for everyone's expressions of concern and well wishes at this time.

[Eric]

After the recent situation with the Tournament, I think it is all the more imperative that this topic be revived and discussed more. However, rather than working on developing the Council into structured branches, I propose that we simply scrap the other branches and just have the Community branch, and simply have the Community act as the enforcers of the law.

1) What brought this on?

Well, as the vote in: http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,9100.0.html clearly shows, while the Council was split right down the middle on the issue, the overall Community had a pretty polar view on it. What is the point in the Council making a very unpopular ruling? While there is no precedent to suggest that the Community as a whole would just ignore a very unpopular ruling, there is precedent to suggest that the Community as a whole takes away a very different view of the Council and the process altogether with such things done.

2) The unattractiveness of being a Primary Council Member.

You can't be a jinchurikii, village leader, nor organizational leader if the organization has a stake in biju matters (if the Nara Order were to get a biju, then would I have to leave the Council at once or something?), meaning that for all intents and purposes, the people who would normally be attracted to this leadership position (cause it kind of is one you know) would pretty much have to give up any other ones just to be on it.

And it's not the most escatic of jobs to have. I imagine Supreme Grandmaster of the Moderators (or the equivalent) has it far worse as far as enforcing rules go, but that's a necessary position to have. Selected and elected Council membership really is not, not after it's clear the Community can just have a vote on a topic and call it a day. Plus, outside of making rulings on select rule violations, there is not much else to the job.

3) What stops all the bickering?

I didn't really see any bickering going on in the thread, BUT, that might be because except for a few, most everybody saw things the same way. In the future with more divisive topics, a similar structure of a "discussion" thread and a "vote" thread may help keep down the nonsense in the vote thread, combined with moderator support. Times for when a vote thread is called and when a discussion thread is officially over is something that can be discussed on here in the rules.

4) It saves time on elections, advertising for Council positions, etc.

Honestly, with the current multi-chamber system, it is going to take quite some effort to fill all those spots and the top 5, if previous interest polls are any indication. By having the Community be the only real Branch and there just be an organized way to bring up and discuss these topics, it saves time, legislation, and headache in adding more sentences as issues pop up.

Plus we won't have a need for elections. Direct democracy is better for a bunch the size of SL I would like to think.

What are yall's thoughts on all of this?

[Genesis]

After the recent situation with the Tournament, I think it is all the more imperative that this topic be revived and discussed more. However, rather than working on developing the Council into structured branches, I propose that we simply scrap the other branches and just have the Community branch, and simply have the Community act as the enforcers of the law.

1) What brought this on?

Well, as the vote in: http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,9100.0.html clearly shows, while the Council was split right down the middle on the issue, the overall Community had a pretty polar view on it. What is the point in the Council making a very unpopular ruling? While there is no precedent to suggest that the Community as a whole would just ignore a very unpopular ruling, there is precedent to suggest that the Community as a whole takes away a very different view of the Council and the process altogether with such things done.

...

What are yall's thoughts on all of this?

Lol, I'm gonna give you alot of my thoughts:

I was actually thinking the same thing this morning. When I proposed what I did in the council only thread, I genuinely thought I was in the minority. Little did I know, I reflected the majority.

And I believe the problem therein lies with second part of what you said, Eric. There's no incentive to do the job. You know how I got this role? I threw my name in the hat and that was simply it. If my memory serves right, at the time, the council was straight up asking people (in the thread) to join because there was little to no interest in it at the time. I was like "sure, why not."

Little did I know, I'd be apart of 4 people delegating how 8 bijuu would be distributed.

To emphasize on the incentive part, there is none. Does that mean I want a "pat on the back and a 'good job!"? Oh God, no. Please don't. But, let me say, this is (currently) the most unrewarding, getting-attention-for-all-the-wrong-reasons job.

So much so, I'll say this: If you're reading this and nothing about the council about the changes, DON'T TAKE THIS JOB.

Let me do a retelling of the situation from my perspective: When the council found themselves with all 8 bijuu, it started there. The moment Bocc quit, EVERYONE jumped at the pie. And the council was slow to the call...but we're not EMTs or doctors on call. So the first three people that showed up had to deal with a horde of people that wanted these bijuu. Mind you, this was our third agenda. Our first two agendas were trivial compared to this one. From the very start, the three of us started a thread of how to deal with this problem. But only three.

Chinote was the first person on the scene.
I only logged in after days of being of MIA.
Hades was inactive, but posted once a day.
Eric didn't show up until the weekend.

So this group of 3 (eventually 4) people had to find a way to delegate 8 bijuu and appease a horde of people who were 'trigger-claiming' for the bijuu. Here's where my problem came in: Not only did we have to find a solution, but the council had to defend itself and it's integrity from MANY people. Hell, this thread even started in the first or second week of the problem. When this thread popped up, it was a low key "the current council sucks" in my eyes. I know Kay made this thread only because of other people, so I know she meant no harm or ill thinking by it.

It was the most demoralizing thing I ever experienced (in terms of SL). We had to deal with a problem and defend ourselves at the same time. As time went on, things simmered down and it got better. But those first days were nuts. I hated it.

Now tell me, who wants to volunteer to do that? Certainly not me, and I'm done with the council after the redistribution is over.

Basically, my biggest problem with the council is that when the council became a thing, the VALIDITY of the council was still in question, ever since it's inception. Guess who has to defend it? The people in the council...who wants to be labeled having no integrity? /rant

So, take my 'testimony' into consideration when you make your restructure. Take it from someone who did it.

[Eric]

Let me do a retelling of the situation from my perspective: When the council found themselves with all 8 bijuu, it started there. The moment Bocc quit, EVERYONE jumped at the pie. And the council was slow to the call...but we're not EMTs or doctors on call. So the first three people that showed up had to deal with a horde of people that wanted these bijuu. Mind you, this was our third agenda. Our first two agendas were trivial compared to this one. From the very start, the three of us started a thread of how to deal with this problem. But only three.

Chinote was the first person on the scene.
I only logged in after days of being of MIA.
Hades was inactive, but posted once a day.
Eric didn't show up until the weekend.

So this group of 3 (eventually 4) people had to find a way to delegate 8 bijuu and appease a horde of people who were 'trigger-claiming' for the bijuu. Here's where my problem came in: Not only did we have to find a solution, but the council had to defend itself and it's integrity from MANY people. Hell, this thread even started in the first or second week of the problem. When this thread popped up, it was a low key "the current council sucks" in my eyes. I know Kay made this thread only because of other people, so I know she meant no harm or ill thinking by it.

It was the most demoralizing thing I ever experienced (in terms of SL). We had to deal with a problem and defend ourselves at the same time. As time went on, things simmered down and it got better. But those first days were nuts. I hated it.

Now tell me, who wants to volunteer to do that? Certainly not me, and I'm done with the council after the redistribution is over...

Now, I don't want to say that I don't want to be a Council Member anymore (even though I"ve been chomping at the bit for another election to start already) but I have to somewhat agree with you on pretty much everything. I, however, do not want to discourage people from at least trying because...

Well, actually, maybe it's better to work on a pathos-logos basis here; nobody can read hearts even if they can read minds around here, and it is no secret that the Council position is not particularly coveted. Let me pour in a bit of my own emotion into this, though I'll section it off with horizontal rule so that if desired folks can skip the borderline rant.


From my perspective on the redistribution matter, I was  still dazed and confused from that week I got strep and had all those Exams, and so as usual tend to get a little ghosty when I'm in a less than decent mood, checking on here just to make sure nobody is dropping an F-bomb Jif or something (I know, I have seriously mellowed out on my village square moderating job since I first started). So I start to bounce back, but then I come on here to find out that, while I had heard that Bocchiere had left (I was hard pressed to believe it at first) he also left the biju to the biju council.

Then of course I read several posts regarding my inactivity on the matter, which is fair enough. But that one post that outright stated the need to replace me even after I made an appearance in the hot button thread! Believe it or not, that boiled my blood more than anything Bocchiere has ever said in public or in private to me. Agenda 3 was posted on the 19th; I got to making a reply on the 22nd. That's just 3 days. Lots of discussion inbetween, yes, but replace me levels of discussion?

I don't participate in a discussion for not even a week's time and there is a serious thought towards having me replaced? Just reading that again for the first time in nearly a month triggered me in ways that I cannot express without violating forum rules for a good 5 minutes. I am at worst here on this forum twice a week during "idle" times here on the forum; the matter of distributing the biju was so imperative to get out immediately that there was a serious thought of replacing one of the forum's most active members for not responding within 3 days? I was incredulous! I was livid! I was thinking, "Are they serious? Going beyond the call of Council duty AND having the nerve to not even wait a week before wanting to replace me?" Couple that with a "you need to check your team" hint in private and it was becoming increasingly obvious that I was a flustered part of team Target, associated and trademarked by the Everybody Else company.

Those together were almost enough to have me leave the Council, and had I acted on pure impulse I would be having this discussion in an entirely different context. To be fair, there was only one actual suggestion for outright replacing me, but obviously colored lenses get tinted under stress; if one wants to get rid of me for not being my usual day of punctual, maybe the others were thinking the same kind of tint.

My frustation increased because, as a consequence of being so "late" to the start of the discussion, I was far too late to pretty much tell everybody: "Yeah, this is NOT in our job description, have the Community handle it" and have an impact on that part of the process, because you know, drawing a line between duty and essentially volunteering as tributes can get dicey when something like the biju gets tossed up like it did. I was too late to make that argument, to make that case; the Council was already boot deep in organizing the tournament alongside Shadow.

The tournament more or less went off without a hitch, and after some focus on studies, I was completely cooled off by the time we get to the next event.

Then Kamui brought up a rule violation; I pushed for consequences to be handed out for breaking the rule in the first place, you know, something that is part of the Biju Council's job description, and most everyone who posted in the thread was like, "bro, why so anal, the peeps directly affected don't care".

What was that point supposed to mean to me exactly? It's our job to make rulings on rule violations brought to our attention regardless of public opinion on that rule, right? That was the currently active iteration of the rules, yes? It was more irritation than outright anger this time though.


The Council unanimously voted that Dato and Rusaku were both guilty of breaking the no alternates rule, the only division being on what to actually do about it. If Silver would have returned temporarily (or more accurately not left in the first place) and ruled to DQ them both, how would the community have reacted to that? Called the Council tyrannical? Just ignored the ruling altogether? Pulled a Bocchiere and trash talked the Council for doing its very job? Or maybe nothing at all would have happened and it would have been the first instance of the Council exerting its rule given authority despite a differeing public opinion on the matter.

The Council has one job, and for me, it is now debateable if it can actually even DO that one job if it takes a wildly unpopular stance, which would thus make it a redundant function to have. In which case, why not just have a direct vote on matters in the first place either incorporated into the system or being the system altogether?

I reiterate, I don't want to discourage people from becoming a Council Member, I really don't because we need people, but this topic has got to be talked about by more people more actively, along with alot of other biju topics really (don't want to get on a tangent there). The Council is unsustainable without bodies to figuratively fill it. And without people in the Council, then the rules that incorporates the Council have to be re-written entirely to exclude the Council (only a few edits away I know, but still) because there is no Council, in which case there need not be any rules for the Council to be made.

I want to help make the Council more attractive, but how? Between taking up causes not in the job description, the vague job description itself, and scrutiny for doing the described job, the current iteration is not sustainable. Maybe we need to remove the stringent requirements for joining (is it really so bad to have village heads in the Council when it is already so hard to get people on it in the first place?), have clearly defined roles for the job (expanded if necessary), and maybe some third thing.


For quoting purposes, long story short, this:

http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,9023.0.html

Is unsustainable and should have been a very loud key that the Council as it is now cannot attract enough recruits outside of those who want to be jinchurikii, village leaders, etc. to make current requirements tenable. The floor either needs to be opened up, or there needs to be an incentive to giving up all that other cool stuff for this job.

[Trev]

I think we should semi go back to the super old council, but not just yet. I think you guys should polish up whatever rules need to be made like.

1. biju mastery (I can't recall if you guys finished it)
2. IC hunt, yay or nay, with rules if yay.
3. Massive biju distribution (Just write down what you guys do and the guidelines included)

After that, I think the council should shift to 7 static members. Elections are overrated and quite frankly not feasible on a small community site. For members, I was thinking like four kage (past or present) and maybe 3 current or former Jinch. With a poll of the top 7 taking the spots or two separate polls one for kage and one for jinch.

This didn't work in the past, but we didn't have a good foundation. You guys have provided said foundation and the next council can just enforce rules and put things to a vote. Kage and jinchs are also active as well. And if abuse happens, said new council member can be kicked off.

So I think if you guys and everyone else really wanted, you guys could polish up the few remaining rules, and bow out if you want to. The new council would just basically be following the guidelines and template you all set by example and do simple voting matters when errors occur. You guys were necessary as I don't think any other collection of people could have come together and got things done.

I know it was hard, and the people of Sl (Including me) suck. But you guys actually got things done, which is a tremendous achievement to get done. I'm sorry you guys disliked the position, and if no one has thanked you, I would like to; THANK YOU

But yeah, that's just my take, consider the option yourself, press others to see if they like it. But I think that is a relatively easy way to move forward.

[Ace]

*coughs*
Of course there is no incentive for volunteer work. <.<
*coughs*

My posts try to heavily emphasize the point to only assume responsibility if it can be handled.
I don't mind one bit if the council is disassembled and the idea tossed away for good.
On the other hand, I do not mind if it stays. =)

Either way, the site will move on-- with new council members, who there are people who want to serve, or without a council.

This isn't a big issue at all, in my opinion.

[Chinote]

I'm just gonna second everything Gen said and the majority of what Eric said, specifically the stuff about the recent Council thread/vote.

I only 'volunteered' because someone else put my name in the hat and I didn't think I'd get enough votes to need to pull it out.

Whatever happens happens. If it continues, then I guess I'll keep doing it until I get voted out. If it goes away or I don't "win" the election, then whatever.

If someone(s?) wants to try and make a better council, then they're more than welcome to take everything we learned with this one. An Articles of Confederation to the Constitution, if you will. Sure, it was fine on paper, but it lacked structure, a foundation. Build upon these ruins something that might work, and who knows. I'll give my 2 cents if it's asked for, but I'm no Thomas Jefferson. Someone else will carry that weight, assuming the community even thinks a Council is needed anymore.

Sorry to all the non-Americans that don't understand my retarded metaphor.

[Rusaku]

I realize I'm not on the council, so I probably(?) shouldn't throw in my two cents, but I would like to say that even if the vote had not gone my way, I would have swallowed the bitter pill and tried to obtain a beast once the opportunity was available to me again. Even if you guys have the unpopular opinion, I see you all as the authority on Biju matters and will follow your lead once a rule is set in stone. I appreciate all of the work you guys do in this thankless job, and hope that even though you all seem to be down in the dumps about the position now, are willing to stick too it and continue to provide your community with reasonable rules and regulations to improve our quality of life.

Eric, I see you as one of the most hard working individuals on this site, and I would like to thank you personally for the effort you have put in despite the others discussing kicking you from the position. You sir are a gentleman and a scholar!

As for a remedy to these issues? I want to go with Trev's idea of including the Jinks in the council, as a minority group. They can provide information and viewpoints that are beneficial to the group they represent, but not to the point where they strong arm their agendas into dominance. What the council sorely lacks right now is sympathy for the people who wish to use these beasts. I see it said regularly that beasts are not being used in RP, which is just incorrect. Right now I am training IburiRay on how to use his newfound beast in the cave of echoes located in Uzushiogakure. Athos is an incredibly avid user of tailed beasts when he is in possession of one. Yujo is certain to include Gyuki in EVERY RP he participates in. It's almost obnoxious, but he still does it. I could go on and on. If you had hosts sitting in these seats, then I'm sure more of you would be aware of that fairly important fact.

With Bocc gone now, people won't be so nearly afraid of using their new RP mechanic out in the open where someone might see. These people need to be included in the decisions that are literally revolved around them, otherwise some rule is going to be created that alienates them, and makes having the beast more of a chore than a fun mechanic, which is a statement that is already becoming a reality.

Having Jinks on the council will also help with the community as a whole. When a group of individuals who do not represent you whatsoever pass judgment on a situation you are involved in, it is far more likely that this person would rebel against that decision. Though if 3 of his close nit peers also agrees with this judgement, knowing full well that they too are probably effected by such, it makes that pill much easier going down. Take it into consideration, please. I genuinely need you all to understand how important this is. 

[Ace]

I'll be the more blunt voice, because someone has to. 
If anyone does not want to be a council member, please, step down now. No one is forcing anyone to do this--- I say this to all current council members. Volunteer work, may it be on here or real life, is not done for any recognition or thanks. People do it because they care, that's it, nothing more to it.

Everyone's hard work on this site, and the forum continues to be greatly appreciated. There are so many members who want to continue to play a role (i.e. by being an active forum member, site member, or being a staff member), hence why I am very critical of Staff's activity/inactivity as well. I'm not shy to hold anyone's feet to the fire, including mine.

Usually, or all of the time, people run for a position, or want to play a more direct role, for a reason (i.e. they run to win, to advance their agenda, or to promote SL in general). If one does not care, then why bother even running? No one is forcing anyone to run to be a council member, or volunteer their time. But as a member, for anyone running in the future, I'll vote for those who care to be on the council-- most of us I assume will.  =)

On the side of popular vs. not popular rulings, simply rule in your best judgement. Over the past decade, I have had the brute force of some members, but it is not my job to bend any rules because what I decide is unpopular. The remedy is to change the rules. My job, for example, is to enforce those rules and provide the best advise and judgement possible to Neji, Staff, and Members alike, which may include changing the rules (been done before)... If I *ONLY* stuck to enforcing the rules, a lot would not be done-- so being more involved in helping SL and the members must happen. That goes for any position, any.

And those persons who may be in the minority decision, keep fighting full force. If you are able to justify your position with logic, and simply "rule" in the most fair and least biased manner as possible, members will have so much respect! Personally, I know I do.

With that said, I would recommend a topic be created for the purpose of letting the members vote to either have a council, or not have a council. Eric, I think you have made some good points, but maybe members want a council...I don't know.

[Eric]

*coughs*
Of course there is no incentive for volunteer work. <.<
*coughs*

I disagree, I at least felt good helping out at the Blood Drives that we had at my old school. And being a village square moderator has the useful perk of being able to edit other people's posts. And don't forget that GM's on SL can make GM posts. 

That aside, 4 kage doesn't really seem enough. Oto, Kumo, Konoha, Kiri, Suna, Uzu, Ame (?), and Iwa each have someone who could arguably be called a kage in one capacity or another. What would choose between them? And of the jinchurikii, which ones get the coveted spot of Council Member under this schematic?

Taking Rusaku's post into account also, this isn't a Council only thread, this is a rule making thread regarding the council and its structure. Feel free to throw a whole dollar if you're feeling particularly generous. Also, it wasn't the entire remaining active Council looking to boot. Don't get me wrong, to my knowledge, replacing me was only an idea brought up once, it was not voted on or heavily discussed or anything like that.

Well, Bocc himself may be gone, but the Hunters aren't. If people were reluctant to RP with their beast out in the open because they were afraid of being hunted down IC for it, doesn't bringing in IC hunt rules kind of encourage said individuals to go back into hiding and not RP with the beast?

I'm not going to lie, I really don't see people RPing with their biju much, but as a former host (thanks for that Rusaku, might return the favor one day ), I know that I did RP with Kokuo (took too long to get enough of Kokuo's power and ending up losing it on the, what, the 3rd real fight?) only to have that akward moment of one day having the beast and the next day not having it anymore without any explicit IC reason for it.

I'll be the more blunt voice, because someone has to. 
If anyone does not want to be a council member, please, step down now...

Likewise:

If even half the current Council members stepped down right this moment, I project that the vaccuum would only be filled as fast as the rules are adjusted to make the position more appealing. And that, Ace, could take awhile. Redistribute the biju had posts flying off the walls, but anything having to do with discussing the rules pretty much takes canon fire just to get a good oven fire going. Only if we are completely unwilling to continue doing our assigned task(s) should we actually step down at this point, at least in my opinion.

Since the beginning I have been determined not to step down until I am confident that my spot is going to be filled. Becuase even if I do step down from the Council, I'm going to be almost just as involved as I was before, just as talkative before, and as relatively civil as if I was still a Council Member. The only thing I would be doing is helping create a power vacuum.

Yeah it has been hard sometimes, I've thought about kicking the mop bucket a few times, but as you put it Ace, I didn't join because I thought it was going to be a cakewalk. I joined because, knowing what it was like to be a jinchurikii for a few months and beliving that the ultimate desire of the Community seemed to favor fairness for Hunter and Prey over sensitivity to the toes stepped on in the process, I saw the Council as the perfect opportunity to make sure that the biju process was, if nothing else, one where all participants are equal under the biju rules, with no special exceptions for this person or for that, for this group nor another, hunter nor prey. And making sure rule violators were dealt with by the book instead of by the ticket seemed like the way to go.

Right or wrong, having current jinchurikii on the Council, I think, would conflict with that, especially if the Council has to rule on one of its own. Even as a lesser branch, it's a conflict of interest that, unlike the kage portion of things, is not really one I see as palpable.

 

When a group of individuals who do not represent you whatsoever ...

I actually challenge that assertation. Council Members were voted in; however meager the pickings, it was a fair vote. To say that a group of elected individuals do not represent the constiuents whatsoever (not in interests, not in image, nada amigo) goes against the definition of an elected representative.

The Council up to this point has only had the power to enforce the rules. The Community has had both the power and the responsibility to create and develop the rules, which in theory can be whatever The Community wants. A Council where half the crew is frustrated over sometimes trivial things (when looking at the big picture), I think, is not that far from representing the Community that the Council came from.

However, with that said, perhaps an experiment needs to be put into play. Some of the rules are half-baked, but let's say that they are "finished" under one pretense or another. I predict that a vote to ratify such rules might would attract attention, but the first time said rule has to be put into action is where, I think, the most interest would take place.  Ace I believe has said it before, if the discussion threads stop, it's time to whip out the vote threads.

*Also, thanks for the thanks all. Originally was going to type something really short, but then replies came up and it just got longer... Ended up forgetting one of my components. *

[Trev]

What would you say is enough then? The council cannot be too big and must be an odd number. 7 seems like the max it can be without it being a force. I also imagine not every kage would want to be on the council, so it's not a choice between all of them. And as for who gets in, I'd put it to a vote of those that want to be in. Same with the jinch.

Or since you think 4 is not enough, how about six kage and one jinch? Some of the biju holder believe they need more of a solid form of representation. Have all the host get together and name their one member to the council to represent them.

Of course the council could be open to those who are not a kage, or jinch. But I chose that, as they have to stay active to some degree. Perhaps include other members should not enough kage want in. Or reduce from 7 to 5 with 4 kage and 1 jinch.

But these are just my ideas. I do know that if there is a replacement council, it can't be overly big and complicated. Just a body to semi enforce the rules when a problem arises.

[Genesis]

I'll be the more blunt voice, because someone has to. 
If anyone does not want to be a council member, please, step down now. No one is forcing anyone to do this--- I say this to all current council members. Volunteer work, may it be on here or real life, is not done for any recognition or thanks. People do it because they care, that's it, nothing more to it.

Everyone's hard work on this site, and the forum continues to be greatly appreciated. There are so many members who want to continue to play a role (i.e. by being an active forum member, site member, or being a staff member), hence why I am very critical of Staff's activity/inactivity as well. I'm not shy to hold anyone's feet to the fire, including mine.

Usually, or all of the time, people run for a position, or want to play a more direct role, for a reason (i.e. they run to win, to advance their agenda, or to promote SL in general). If one does not care, then why bother even running? No one is forcing anyone to run to be a council member, or volunteer their time. But as a member, for anyone running in the future, I'll vote for those who care to be on the council-- most of us I assume will.  =)

On the side of popular vs. not popular rulings, simply rule in your best judgement. Over the past decade, I have had the brute force of some members, but it is not my job to bend any rules because what I decide is unpopular. The remedy is to change the rules. My job, for example, is to enforce those rules and provide the best advise and judgement possible to Neji, Staff, and Members alike, which may include changing the rules (been done before)... If I *ONLY* stuck to enforcing the rules, a lot would not be done-- so being more involved in helping SL and the members must happen. That goes for any position, any.

And those persons who may be in the minority decision, keep fighting full force. If you are able to justify your position with logic, and simply "rule" in the most fair and least biased manner as possible, members will have so much respect! Personally, I know I do.

With that said, I would recommend a topic be created for the purpose of letting the members vote to either have a council, or not have a council. Eric, I think you have made some good points, but maybe members want a council...I don't know.

I should've been more specific. I never wanted to be thanked, I was just saying that being a council member was difficult at that moment in time. Because not only were we discussing a solution, but we also had to defend ourselves from criticism.

Here's what I mean: You're a mod and I can imagine that you get plenty criticism. But at the end of the day, you're a mod and there's a need for mods. Now, we were apart of the first bijuu council overseeing the redistribution of 8 bijuu. If we didn't defend ourselves from criticism and what not, the very thought of a council would be in jeopardy.

I said what I said not because I wanted a pat on the back, that's trivial. I said what I said because the council itself had 'weak' support. If a good chunk of the community doesn't support of the council, the council won't have authority. That's what I meant (or originally intended) when I spoke.

Basically, it comes down to this: No matter what council or council structure you make here, it's nothing if it doesn't have authority and communities' respect. The first council was in serious jeopardy of losing that respect, and we had to make our case, which is unacceptable.

Tell me Ace, do you have to make your case as a mod each time you ban someone? I hope you see what I'm getting at.

[Ace]

Yes, actually...
The staff is notified, and/or I speak directly to the member when necessary.

My judgement has been questioned numerous times, of course it has--- much less now-a-days with a proven track record. What do I do to ensure I am following protocol that most will never see? I message Neji directly and provide proof, I post in our grotto and provide proof, etc... So yes, I still make a case for my actions, and so does every staff member actually.

Why? Because I want every staff member to know, including myself, that respect can be lost at anytime. And that "respect" should not last forever, it should always depend on multiple factors that continue to change.

Personally, I find it completely *acceptable* that I justify the reason for actions I take to those that *need* to be notified. I expect other staff to do so as well. In my case, I justify my actions to the staff and Oliver if necessary. And, I discuss with mostly each individual I warn or ban. I rather not share names, but any staff member at least can attest to that.

With that said,  I do understand your point. However, with the creation or formation of something new, the people who are in charge of it or those who are involved in it will always be scrutinized. They should then work to defend why it is necessary to have them, the idea, the newly created council for example, etc. Again, I still do that. I defend my actions to staff, to Oliver, and I defend why we might still need a council. Numerous members have played an incredible role by building a foundation. 

Of course the foundation isn't great, but when given the chance to help, many did not volunteer to be in the initial discussions. And even now, I see less activity from some. No, it can't be had both ways. If you are busy with life, of course it's understandable. But don't complain afterwards, because so many chances to help continue to be asked, if not begged for. We all see right through the BS.

Finally to add, a moderator may be needed, but *I* may not be needed. =)

----------------------------------

Your work as a council member, other members' work as forum staff, site staff, item editors, volunteers, etc..., it is not an easy gig. It will be challenging, it will be tough, and unfortunately, the burden will always be upon us to ensure that we defend why some things are needed-- even if it is proven to work. That simply makes the case easier, we use more facts. xD

**The point I am making, no matter the position a person has, in real life or here, there is so much involved to fulling that position. And I think so many members have proven to be incredible leaders. It never ceases to amaze me. At times, I know I disappoint some members. Not everyone will be happy either by what I personally do or say. But, I'll simply continue to further improve myself, and work harder to ensure I minimize any faults that I have.

Once members do not have the trust and respect for *me*, I know it's time to step down (if not removed). At that point, it becomes increasingly tough for me to defend ideas or creations that have proven to work. It basically ruins the image because my name is attached to it. But in the end, I can simply do my best in hopes of providing the best service possible. =)

Sometimes, just sometimes, it may be the person who is the problem-- not the institution itself. But, since we are all biased to a certain extent, some simply will never take responsibility for their own actions.

*coughs*
Please, I do hope anyone responding to this topic reads my entire post. Please, thanks!