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[Hazama]

So this is an exchange I had with Genesis that concluded today. As usual read from the bottom to the top.

---Original Message from Fallen King,  Genesis(2016-12-31 20:53:51)---
Go ahead and make the forum topic.
---Original Message from  Uzumakiwarrior(2016-12-31 20:52:36)---
I didn't have to challenge you I was already on the nine tails challenger list you inherited. I was just waiting for your cooldown to be done for the fight to start not to have to challenge you.

You can either acquiesce in your next response that you're fighting me with Genesis or I'll make a forum topic about it and the council will force you to, failing that you'll just be stripped. I'm tired of arguing with you guys about the shit you're trying to pull to keep the nine tails away from me.
---Original Message from Fallen King,  Genesis(2016-12-31 20:47:52)---
That is true that I fought him as Genesis. But when it was given to me, I placed it on Synth and Rp'd on him like 2 weeks ago. It was in Genesis possession and I gave it to Synth...I guess you can say. Mind you, you could only challenge me on the 26th (or 24th). I had rp'd as Synth with nine tails already at that point.

---Original Message from  Uzumakiwarrior(2016-12-31 20:42:51)---
No it seemed that way on the forum because you rp'd as Genesis in your fight with ryoji which was titled "Genesis vs Ryoji".

Me not saying something is not giving consent.

You challenged as Genesis, got the bijuu as Genesis, I challenged Genesis, and I'm fighting Genesis. If you don't want to rp it as Genesis surrender the bijuu to me and then challenge as Synthesis
---Original Message from Fallen King,  Genesis(2016-12-31 20:25:52)---
That's how it seemed in the forum since I really don't have a forum account for Synthesis. The way I interpreted it is that I, Genesis, am the main and that's my forum account. Don't really have an account with Synth.

Also, I rp'd Synthesis having the 9 tails two weeks ago and you said nothing then. Mind you, you posted right after me.
---Original Message from  Uzumakiwarrior(2016-12-31 20:17:47)---
Genesis was the challenger for the 9 tails, the bijuu went to Genesis, Genesis is the name on the bijuu list.

Weeks ago I was still the pending challenger for the nine tails because I was next in line for it. There was no point in time in which you did not have me as a challenger and could have changed ownership of the nine tails to your alt. It's pretty simple. You can't just flip flop the bijuu between your characters to try and counter pick the challenger. Otherwise there'd be no point in naming the character as the host. We might as well just say the person behind the keyboard has this many bijuu and they'll pick which character they want to defend it with. You don't get to do that.

Kaze has the 7 Tails if someone challenges me for it I have to defend it with Kaze, not Athos.
---Original Message from Fallen King,  Genesis(2016-12-31 19:05:50)---
I never said it was on Genesis. Sure I challenged Ryoji with it, but I placed on Synth weeks ago.
---Original Message from  Uzumakiwarrior(2016-12-31 15:35:28)---
The bijuu was on Genesis though, not Synthesis. You can't pass it to another character when you have a pending challenger whose already challenged Genesis.
---Original Message from Fallen King,  Genesis(2016-12-31 05:36:15)---
I'm good with that. Why not Trev?

I have Kamui with Synth.
---Original Message from  Uzumakiwarrior(2016-12-29 17:53:39)---
I do have the boot to kick a judge with though so if you pick someone biased like ryoji or yujo I'll boot them and then we'll have to get a real judge so I'm putting some faith in you that you'll pick a good one to start and save us some time.
---Original Message from Fallen King,  Genesis(2016-12-29 15:14:37)---
I'm a little busy to be honest. I'm super good after friday though. You wanna talk about voids and stuff? That's how this thing usually goes, right?
---Original Message from  Uzumakiwarrior(2016-12-28 13:54:34)---
You ready to go?
---Original Message from Fallen King,  Genesis(2016-12-28 00:24:16)---
Yo


So basically Genesis is telling me that, even though I was already on his challenger list for the Nine Tails when the host was Genesis that he can pass the bijuu to another character (who is literally just a clone of Genesis stated to be explicitly stronger than the original) and make me fight that character instead. I disagree, and am tired of arguing with these guys about them constantly trying to cheat, so here we are again.

[Genesis]

Hi! Hello! Happy New Year's eve. Let me plead my case before I take my leave for the night.

I also knew that this was going to happen to an extent. So if this screws me over, so be it.

Let me first establish a basis to this argument. On SL and on these forums, I am known as Genesis. The character has become synonymous with me. Under my name Genesis you can clearly see (characters: Genesis, synthesis, etc.) While I originally fought with Genesis in a fight that was null once it was started, once the beast was surrendered to me I placed the beast onto Synthesis. I didn't announce that I did so, but I didn't know that everyone had to know what character of mine. I thought that in the possession of Genesis (the person) was enough.

That's pretty much it. Now, let me prove to you that this wasn't a flippant choice I made when Athos messaged me.

This is an image of Synthesis bio claiming he's the nine tails: http://i.imgur.com/m4JPkGx.png

I took a screen shot the moment I made that change. Notice the clock in the corner.

If that isn't enough for you, I posted this in Uzushiogakure 15 days ago.

(15d4h) Synthesis yawned as he began his day walking his dog down the streets of Uzushiogakure. He rose his brow as his shih tzu began to sniff as a corpse and was obviously deliberating of doing his business there. "Down boy, don't dishonor the dead like that!" yelled Synthesis as he repremanded the poor--
(15d4h) Synthesis --pupper. "Ha!" chuckled Kurama as he laughed in the bowels of Synth's subconcious. "Down boy!" Synth said aloud, looking at his tummy. "Screw you." replied the beast.

So that's pretty much that proof and my argument.

Fun little fact, here's a screenshot of that post. Guess who posted one mod post after. : http://i.imgur.com/vcPHIkg.png?1

If only this issue could've been brought up earlier. Thanks for reading my argument and Happy New Years!

[Ѕhadow]

It seems underhanded in nature that you give the beast to Synthesis without making it publicly known. No, I'm not saying you have to update us on everything you do, but with bijuu matters you know well that transparency is a must.

I can't see anywhere that someone other than yourself knew Synthesis had the beast. On the forums, NP, and in clan halls it's listed 'Genesis' all over the place.

In the end you challenged with Genesis and when Ryoji was stripped Genesis got the beast. You cannot  change hosts with a challenger in the waiting list unless they for some reason agree to it. Athos was in the waiting list, you can't give it to Synthesis due to that.

TL;DR

Can't change hosts when someone is on the wait list

[Hazama]

Thank you, that's all I needed to hear. We'll just wait and see if the other council members disagree for some reason.

[Dart Terumī]

Switching hands to a different character under Gene's control does not violate any current rules that we have set in place.

Though, it is pretty inconvenient that Gene never did correct that Synthesis was in possession of the beast.

Just because Gene used Genesis to 'fight' for Kyūbi, it didn't mean it made him a 'host'. He just gained possession of the Kyūbi and then placed it within Synthesis.

[Hazama]

He just gained possession of the Kyūbi and then placed it within Synthesis.

No he didn't, that is not what happened. He had Genesis listed as the host in that characters profile and then changed it to another character while I was waiting for his grace to be over so we could start our fight.

If he wants to give the bijuu up he has to give it to me, not anyone else, including one of his other characters. This is no different than him saying he gives the bijuu to Ryoji and now I have to fight him for it. If you give up the bijuu and you have a pending challenger it goes to them.

That's great that's not currently in the rules, it's an obvious abuse of a loophole so now that I brought it up you can close it. Otherwise why not just have a dozen characters with a dozen different kind of abilities and then whenever anyone challenges you then you can just pick the character from your list that counters them and defend the bijuu with that one.

[Dart Terumī]

He just gained possession of the Kyūbi and then placed it within Synthesis.

No he didn't, that is not what happened. He had Genesis listed as the host in that characters profile and then changed it to another character while I was waiting for his grace to be over so we could start our fight.

If he wants to give the bijuu up he has to give it to me, not anyone else, including one of his other characters. This is no different than him saying he gives the bijuu to Ryoji and now I have to fight him for it. If you give up the bijuu and you have a pending challenger it goes to them.

That's great that's not currently in the rules, it's an obvious abuse of a loophole so now that I brought it up you can close it. Otherwise why not just have a dozen characters with a dozen different kind of abilities and then whenever anyone challenges you then you can just pick the character from your list that counters them and defend the bijuu with that one.

Where's the proof on that one? This part right here will be a he said, she said ordeal unless you can provide proof.

He didn't "give up" the beast. It is still in his possession with his alt. It's no different than having multiple alts and multiple Bijū like how you are wanting to do.

Even if we close the loophole, it wouldn't affect the current situation as that would be ex post facto. It can only deter further incidents from occurring.


As it stands, Genesis hasn't violated any rules. Arguing with me on this thread, won't change that. YOU asked for the council's OPINIONS and this so happens to be mine. WAIT PATIENTLY FOR ALL TO REPLY before you clutter up the thread further.

IF you want to have further discussion with ME, then directly message me.

You are asking for the COUNCIL  to take an ACTION here, not have an argument with everyone who disagrees with your snap judgement.

Wait. For. Everyone. Else. First.

[Hazama]

Dart I promise you that if I ever need anyone to tell me how to reply to my own topics I will call you first, night or day, because I can tell how eager you are for that job.

Alright we're having fun with colors now.

He challenged Ryoji for the Nine Tails with the character Genesis, they started a fight for the bijuu where he rp'd as Genesis and it was titled "Genesis vs Ryoji". So when Ryoji was stripped it went to the person who was his current challenger, the character and player named Genesis. He inherited the challenger list at the same time which had me as the next challenger. So there was no point in time in which he could have switched the bijuu to someone else.

No it is very different. I'm going "I have this character he has the 7 Tails and this character he has the 6 Tails." He's going, "I have this bijuu and I'm going to pick... THIS character to defend it with against you." He might as well not have the bijuu have a declared host at all if he can at any time round robin the Bijuu to any character of his preference. If that is how you want it to be, like I said, I'll make a dozen extra characters, all with different movesets, so whenever anyone challenges me I can just pick the character that counter all their moves the hardest and defend the bijuu with that one.

Yes it can affect the current situation because we are not a court of law. We don't have any laws regarding ex post facto here. Though the situation isn't really ex post facto anyway. Ex post facto is making something illegal and then retroactively punishing people for doing that back when it was legal. So like if the age of consent was 15 and you openly had sex with a 15 year old, but a few years later the age of consent was raised to 18 and they tried to try you for statutory rape for the sex you had back in the day, which at the time was legal, that would be ex post facto. This is not because it hasn't happened yet. It would only be ex post facto if our fight was already over, Genesis had won, and then we made it a rule that you couldn't switch characters and I tried to strip him for it. Not that any legal term would be more or less relevant since we still aren't a court of law.

[Trev]

I don't see a problem with him having it on Synthesis, provided he never "switched it". Numerous times on SL, people have won a biju with a different character and given it to an alt upon victory. Bocc did it with his various alts all the time upon winning a biju. Similar to if someone uses an Edo Tensei to win a biju fight, and then giving said biju to the summoner of said Edo Tensei. There is no rule that states the winner of the match = the one who must defend it.

However, I do fault Genesis for not saying anything on the forum or wiki. Which is why my decision comes down to this.

If the biju was ever attached to Genesis by Genny himself ( Ie as Athos claims, he did it on the profile wiki) then the character of Genesis must defend it / host it.

If not, then I see no problem with him using any other character.

[Hazama]

I don't see a problem with him having it on Synthesis, provided he never "switched it". Numerous times on SL, people have won a biju with a different character and given it to an alt upon victory. Bocc did it with his various alts all the time upon winning a biju. Similar to if someone uses an Edo Tensei to win a biju fight, and then giving said biju to the summoner of said Edo Tensei. There is no rule that states the winner of the match = the one who must defend it.

You are correct, but, I do not believe it was ever done in a situation where there was a challenger list inherited. Just that the bijuu was won and with no pending challengers then switched to another character.

I guess the disagreement is that what Dart is saying implies that when you win a bijuu it goes into a nebulous state and can be then given to any of your characters and that character is the initial host.

In my opinion whichever character challenged/fought for the beast is the initial host when you get the bijuu, even if only for the 2 mins it takes for you to post that you're giving it to another character on the wiki. And since Genny had a pending challenger that he inherited at the same time as the bijuu I don't see him having had any free time in which to switch it.

[Trev]

I don't see a problem with him having it on Synthesis, provided he never "switched it". Numerous times on SL, people have won a biju with a different character and given it to an alt upon victory. Bocc did it with his various alts all the time upon winning a biju. Similar to if someone uses an Edo Tensei to win a biju fight, and then giving said biju to the summoner of said Edo Tensei. There is no rule that states the winner of the match = the one who must defend it.

You are correct, but, I do not believe it was ever done in a situation where there was a challenger list inherited. Just that the bijuu was won and with no pending challengers then switched to another character.

I guess the disagreement is that what Dart is saying implies that when you win a bijuu it goes into a nebulous state and can be then given to any of your characters and that character is the initial host.

In my opinion whichever character challenged/fought for the beast is the initial host when you get the bijuu, even if only for the 2 mins it takes for you to post that you're giving it to another character on the wiki. And since Genny had a pending challenger that he inherited at the same time as the bijuu I don't see him having had any free time in which to switch it.

I get what you're saying, I just disagree. I don't think it inherently means the beast suddenly gets sealed into Genesis, or he must use it as a summon. Now obviously he can't/ shouldn't get like a week and dilly dally with his decision. But if he only took a day or so and put it on synth, I really don't see the issue.

So my votes officially a no. Unless of course Genny on his profile page claimed the 9 tails was on Genesis, which I believe you said he did. If that is that case and he actively switched characters, then my vote is changed to support you. So if you, the fine people from the wiki, or anyone really can find that edit, then my vote is changed. That's all I have left to comment on this thread.

So if that evidence exist, the vote is
2-1 in favor of Genesis defending it.

If not
1-2 in favor of Synth.

[Camel]

I don't have much of a problem with Genesis switching Kurama over to another character of his, because in the end the host still gains the former's challenger list.

If you want more proof of this, take it from Trev. Many people do this, I've done it before and even witnessed it before my eyes, but this is really the first time that it was made into big deal. I don't see that much of a big deal about it, it's more of a loop-hole that nearly everyone has abused, same thing with trading items, but that's another thread to talk about in the future.

As I see it. Athos wasn't publicly notified of this change of hands. No general rule was broken, but it was just rude to not let your challengers know that you'll have to face another character. Because after all, confusion can make everything fall apart in my opinion.

My vote is that Syth has to defend it against the first challenger on the list that was earned through Kurama, which happens to be Athos.

[Hazama]

It said on Genesis's bio, on the character Genesis, that he was Jinchuriki of the 9 Tails. He then changed it to "Not Jinchuriki of the 9 Tails" after switching it to Synthesis. So unless you can check the edit history of someones bio page no there isn't any evidence since I'm sure he'll have no problem lying to everyone's face about it.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

I am replying based on the first two posts made by Athos, who is bringing this issue to the attention of the council, and Genesis who is defending the complaint of Athos.

I will read all of the comments and do my investigation of the preference post made by Genesis, then come back and comment again.

So with this as my basis of understanding, I must make this initial reply to the complaint.

taken from the pm convo between Athos and Genesis, as posted by Athos in the first post of this thread...which Genesis did not contest as being altered in his defense post:

---Original Message from Fallen King,  Genesis(2016-12-31 19:05:50)---
I never said it was on Genesis. Sure I challenged Ryoji with it, but I placed on Synth weeks ago.
---Original Message from  Uzumakiwarrior(2016-12-31 15:35:28)---
The bijuu was on Genesis though, not Synthesis. You can't pass it to another character when you have a pending challenger whose already challenged Genesis.

Ok Genesis....as a former Council Member one Assumes you read the rules about how Bijuu are to be handled. SO...and I will go check and see if you posted anything about the bijuu and its new host in a minute...

Let me say this:

1] Unless Genesis is dead...you cannot give the bijuu away to anyone, even yourself, when you have a challenger waiting. You can give the challenger the bijuu, but that is about it. If you forfeit the match, it goes to the challenger.

2] If Genesis is in fact dead, and you bothered to RP Synthesis getting the bijuu and taking it for himself, or even just hand waved that...which is ok according to this OOC way of doing things ...The you have to follow the rules and make a post for Synthesis. It's ok if you do not make a new account and wait for validation to prove you are not a bot and then post the thread. YOU STILL HAVE TO FOLLOW THE RULES FOR HOSTS AND THEIR ACTIVITIES.

In the rules you presumably were familiar with as a former Bijuu council member.

Further more....These discussions and such are supposed to be listed in that thread too. What is voided. What date did Synth become a host? Will you be taking a grace period? When does this grace period end? All these things are supposed to be listed in the preference/activity thread. I will post that section here for your reading convenience as well as link you to the entire body of current rules.
[urlhttp://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,9118.msg215074.html#msg215074]Bijuu Rules[/url]


A host must create a thread with the name of his or her bijuu in the title to the Bijuu Arena board, and use this thread to: state his or her preference for battle, keep a list of challengers, indicate if he or she is a new host and when his or her grace period will be over, and post any notices of absence.

After arrangements have been made between the host and challenger, a post to indicate what terms have been accepted will be made to the host's thread.

The challenger and the host have 1 week to set up and begin their biju match.

The challenger list of the former host/owner is inherited by the new host/owner of a bijuu. You may still take the 14 day grace period before beginning discussions on setting up your first match even though your new bijuu comes with challengers.


3] If everything was done the way it should have been done, then Athos would be inherited as the first challenger by Synthesis as per the rules. He does not have to wait to make a challenge, however, if Synthesis would invoke the grace period, he would have to wait for the match to begin on the POSTED DATE FOUND IN YOUR PREFERENCE/ACTIVITY THREAD.

So with that being said, I shall now read the rest of this thread and investigate the board for signs of OFFICILA NOTIFICATION OF THIS OCCURENCE AS WELL AS THE DEATH OF GENESIS IN ORDER FOR IT TO BE LEGIT.

Why? Cause Athos had already made the initial challenge to Genesis prior to it being switched to Synthesis...so unless Genny is DEAD, then you must either fight Athos on Genesis or forfeit the Bijuu to him.

Let me make something perfectly clear. These rules have been posted for a very long time...and they are not here to make anyone get screwed. I can't conceive that you didn't bother to read them Genny. So the only thing I can think is you simply didn't understand them.

I would vote toward Making you face Athos on Genesis rather than just call for a stripping.

But so far, I have to say this move with Synthesis is not permitted as per the rules barring new information that I find upon further investigation.

Athos did in fact have a challenge made for the 9 tails with Genesis as the host before you gave it to Synthesis? Correct? You are not contesting that? Cause its a whole new ball game if that is not true.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

And until I get caught up I am just going to comment as I read when I feel the need.

Switching hands to a different character under Gene's control does not violate any current rules that we have set in place.

Though, it is pretty inconvenient that Gene never did correct that Synthesis was in possession of the beast.

Just because Gene used Genesis to 'fight' for Kyūbi, it didn't mean it made him a 'host'. He just gained possession of the Kyūbi and then placed it within Synthesis.

Actually there is a rule that prohibits it if you think about it.

Breaking any of the other rules results in one warning to be issued by the council. A second violation of the same rule will result in stripping.

What rule was broken? well, this one...unless I am totally wrong and Genesis made his changes official with a preference thread...We seriously need to know who has what at all times and handle these transfers properly. Cause if there is a challenger, these sliding bijuu back and forth under the table deals are just not legit and screw the challenger every time.

A host must create a thread with the name of his or her bijuu in the title to the Bijuu Arena board, and use this thread to: state his or her preference for battle, keep a list of challengers, indicate if he or she is a new host and when his or her grace period will be over, and post any notices of absence.


Is there specifically a rule that states you cannot switch a beast to an alt if you have any challengers waiting to fight the host? Well no, there isn't. There also is not a specific rule that says you cannot give the beast away to another player instead of facing your challengers. There is not a rule that says a challenger has to be FIRST in line for bijuu transfer in all instances.

WHO KNEW IT WASN'T OBVIOUSLY CONSIDERED WRONG?

Clearly these are rules we need to propose and then vote for or against. This is good stuff people. Working the kinks out of the system and getting things in tip top shape to handle all occasions!

I am not saying there was ill intent here on the part of Genesis. This is all just part of working things out properly. Without this hiccup I would never have thought it was necessary to be made into a rule.

So...more reading....