Shinobi Legends Forum - Shinobi Legends Game Site

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Ever wondered if your ideas have been talked about in the forum already? Well, try out the "search" option, where all your questions can be answered.

Poll

Revote

Council members can be judges
- 7 (77.8%)
Council members can't be judges
- 2 (22.2%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: January 28, 2017, 02:47:17 AM


Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Council Members as Judges, Pt. 2  (Read 3444 times)

Camel

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +155/-136
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2637
  • 01010100 01100001 01100011 01101111 01110011
    • View Profile
Re: Council Members as Judges, Pt. 2
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2017, 09:30:00 PM »

I figured that it was something for the council to discuss and vote on there agenda
You had me until this. Elected officials should not be able to decide the extent of their power. That should be for their constituents.

That's not to say you shouldn't get a say, but you can't have the only say.

The community will always get a word in when it comes to discussions, but council is the one that has the final say so, since their vote would decide if that proposition becomes a new rule. I'm sure that you heard of closed session council meetings, where discussion and voting is strictly done by those participating members. (The community can still voice their opinions, but the final decisions usually comes from that council.)
Logged

Eric

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +101/-100
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3504
    • View Profile
Re: Council Members as Judges, Pt. 2
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2017, 03:25:13 AM »

I figured that it was something for the council to discuss and vote on there agenda
You had me until this. Elected officials should not be able to decide the extent of their power. That should be for their constituents.

That's not to say you shouldn't get a say, but you can't have the only say.

The community will always get a word in when it comes to discussions, but council is the one that has the final say so, since their vote would decide if that proposition becomes a new rule. I'm sure that you heard of closed session council meetings, where discussion and voting is strictly done by those participating members. (The community can still voice their opinions, but the final decisions usually comes from that council.)

No, not technically, I think that you are confusing a Council ruling on rule enforcement and community voting on rule amendment. The two are technically separate acts. This is a rule amendment, not a Council decision on enforcement of the rule.

Enforcement of the rules would be like, say, instead of Kayenta being the one posting a thread about hosts getting their stuff together on activity threads, the Council as a whole should have made a note about that, or should have begun issuing warnings the moment that opened up. Especially after threads were made FOR the hosts and there was still some lazing around on the matter.

Or Trev being a favored judge and judging matches completely against the rules, on whether there should be punishment for that or not sort of thing.

Amending the rules and adding them goes through the same process that rule addition goes through. Discussion thread and then a vote thread, both of which being public and not Council-specific or non-Council specific.
Logged
Anything you can think of I can't think of, let me know; that's how the sharing circle works.

Chinote

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +6/-19
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 157
    • View Profile
Re: Council Members as Judges, Pt. 2
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2017, 04:38:45 AM »

I figured that it was something for the council to discuss and vote on there agenda
You had me until this. Elected officials should not be able to decide the extent of their power. That should be for their constituents.

That's not to say you shouldn't get a say, but you can't have the only say.

The community will always get a word in when it comes to discussions, but council is the one that has the final say so, since their vote would decide if that proposition becomes a new rule. I'm sure that you heard of closed session council meetings, where discussion and voting is strictly done by those participating members. (The community can still voice their opinions, but the final decisions usually comes from that council.)

No, not technically, I think that you are confusing a Council ruling on rule enforcement and community voting on rule amendment. The two are technically separate acts. This is a rule amendment, not a Council decision on enforcement of the rule.

Enforcement of the rules would be like, say, instead of Kayenta being the one posting a thread about hosts getting their stuff together on activity threads, the Council as a whole should have made a note about that, or should have begun issuing warnings the moment that opened up. Especially after threads were made FOR the hosts and there was still some lazing around on the matter.

Or Trev being a favored judge and judging matches completely against the rules, on whether there should be punishment for that or not sort of thing.

Amending the rules and adding them goes through the same process that rule addition goes through. Discussion thread and then a vote thread, both of which being public and not Council-specific or non-Council specific.
This, basically.
Logged

Camel

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +155/-136
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2637
  • 01010100 01100001 01100011 01101111 01110011
    • View Profile
Re: Council Members as Judges, Pt. 2
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2017, 07:48:16 AM »

I figured that it was something for the council to discuss and vote on there agenda
You had me until this. Elected officials should not be able to decide the extent of their power. That should be for their constituents.

That's not to say you shouldn't get a say, but you can't have the only say.

The community will always get a word in when it comes to discussions, but council is the one that has the final say so, since their vote would decide if that proposition becomes a new rule. I'm sure that you heard of closed session council meetings, where discussion and voting is strictly done by those participating members. (The community can still voice their opinions, but the final decisions usually comes from that council.)

No, not technically, I think that you are confusing a Council ruling on rule enforcement and community voting on rule amendment. The two are technically separate acts. This is a rule amendment, not a Council decision on enforcement of the rule.

Enforcement of the rules would be like, say, instead of Kayenta being the one posting a thread about hosts getting their stuff together on activity threads, the Council as a whole should have made a note about that, or should have begun issuing warnings the moment that opened up. Especially after threads were made FOR the hosts and there was still some lazing around on the matter.

Or Trev being a favored judge and judging matches completely against the rules, on whether there should be punishment for that or not sort of thing.

Amending the rules and adding them goes through the same process that rule addition goes through. Discussion thread and then a vote thread, both of which being public and not Council-specific or non-Council specific.

I understand that this is a rule amendment, which is why I added a seven day poll to further legitimatize that this was a discussion/vote thread.

Let me better rephrase myself: The community will always get a word in when it comes to bijuu-related discussions, but in the end the council is the one that has the final say so. Since their vote would decide if that proposition regarding that bijuu-related subject will become a new bijuu-related rule or not.

As for rule enforcement? Well I appreciated that Kayenta brought that issue to light, otherwise I was sure that if I didn't addressed it. Another council member would've done so and lately we have been dealing out warnings for jichuuriki that intend to laze around. :oops:
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 07:50:49 AM by Camel »
Logged

Hades

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +14/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
    • View Profile
Re: Council Members as Judges, Pt. 2
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2017, 08:24:55 AM »

I think, unless I misunderstood something, that what people are saying is that it should be the whole community discussing council members as judges and voting to change the current rule.

It should not be a council-only vote to change a rule which impacts what we are or are not able to do.
Logged

Ѕhadow

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +53/-47
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1899
    • View Profile
Re: Council Members as Judges, Pt. 2
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2017, 08:39:32 AM »

They're worried about the council governing themselves on what they can and can't do. Which is understandable if you take into consideration certain parts of history. In that aspect it's a bad idea. That being said I wouldn't rank the SL Council on par with said historical circumstances.

We are editing just one rule that allows us to judge bijuu matches. It makes sense to me that the ones who decide on bijuu rules can also judge bijuu matches. Not all qualifying people are on the council, but a few are.

I don't want to block out the community voice either. They have a say in how far our power reaches and what we can do. If the majority says we can't do 'X' then that's that. We operate with transparency.

A council vote and a community vote seems like the best bet to me.
Logged
I'm going to agree with you on some things and disagree with you on some things.

Something that can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Eric

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +101/-100
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3504
    • View Profile
Re: Council Members as Judges, Pt. 2
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2017, 11:48:57 PM »


Let me better rephrase myself: The community will always get a word in when it comes to bijuu-related discussions, but in the end the council is the one that has the final say so. Since their vote would decide if that proposition regarding that bijuu-related subject will become a new bijuu-related rule or not.


Let me try a different approach, as clearly my previous one did not get the perspective across.

Say that there are 15 people who care about biju left on this site, just hypothetically speaking, and 7 of them consist of the Biju Council members. Even if the Council votes 7 to nothing for yes on an issue then if the non-Council members were to vote 8 to nothing no, then the non-Council member vote takes the day.

More likely than not it is going to be more of a mixture. It is pointless having two separate votes. Why is there such an insistence on changing the way that rules are added and changed all of a sudden?

They're worried about the council governing themselves on what they can and can't do. Which is understandable if you take into consideration certain parts of history. In that aspect it's a bad idea. That being said I wouldn't rank the SL Council on par with said historical circumstances...

I am worried about the Council becoming so powerful that it becomes redundant and, as people feared during the 1st cohort, so powerful that it goes beyond the original intention of the Council.

From the get-go I warned and showed concern about the Council defacto changing the rules if the process for amending rules and the Council's own responsbilities were not written in stone, but this goes to a whole nother level of conspiracy. If everyone on the Council is so tight that the Council vote alone would smash the non-Council and one or two Council dissenter voters, it becomes a majority rules situation again just like before the Council was established. Which means that the Council becomes "the community", not just "a part of the community", and once again the community is left alone to completely regulate itself. Making having a "Council" pointless.

The original intent of the Council was for it to faithfully enforce the rules, an Executive Branch if you will, that was a select few trusted RPers who would be unbiased somewhat in their efforts. Due to the increase in the size of the Council and the opening up to jinchurikii, conflicts of interest have been creeping up in subtle ways here and there. To say that only the Council vote matters both for practical and for theoretical reasons is akin to giving the President of the United States and his Cabinent the power to write laws (not just executive orders and similar things).

Quote
We are editing just one rule that allows us to judge bijuu matches. It makes sense to me that the ones who decide on bijuu rules can also judge bijuu matches.

That's not the Council's job, the Council has not been explicitly given that power at any point in this process. The ones who enforce and perhaps even interpret the rules, not create or edit, the biju rules describe the Council.

Am I talking to people who had nothing to do with the process of creating this iteration of the Council or something? I don't see how else there is confusion on why this notion - of the Council vote alone determining if a rule that affects the Council's powers and duties is editted one way or another - does not have a rattling effect, particularly on non-Council members.

SL is full of examples of loophole and rule abuse. This forum has got plenty from the old biju days that we might can dig through.
Logged
Anything you can think of I can't think of, let me know; that's how the sharing circle works.

JayJay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +17/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Who the flip is Jay!?!?
    • View Profile
Re: Council Members as Judges, Pt. 2
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2017, 12:49:00 AM »

I agree with Eric. A Council, an unbiased Council (let me point out that keyword) is here to settle arguments... to keep the peace. At least, that's how I see them in my eyes. If an issue was to be brought up to them, it rests on them to discuss it amongst themselves with cool minds. The issue bringer doesn't need to continue being angry and all that bickering back and forth about things and trust me, I can sense the contempt in the words.

If there was a vote that needed to be done, that involved the community, the Council would input their votes just as much as the rest of the community, just to keep from having two voting sessions where one can override the other. This example of the odd number of the SL community is to prevent the event of a tie (estimating if all 15 members were to vote). If the Council was allowed to edit one rule, what would stop them from editing the others? Just as the Council is like the police (as they enforce the rules) who would police the police? I would suggest Ace... but he's on the council... so is it our God, Neji? Well... obviously. Bam, question answered. I should simply just strike this from the record.

In any case, the only thing that matters, in my eyes, is just how many members of the community are indeed involved in the matters of the Tailed Beasts? And how many members of the Council are active in the matters of said aforementioned Beasts? Depending on the number, we simply eliminate those members from being Judges for the duration of their tenure and those that aren't involved can be judges. Simply because they're the truly unbiased members of the council that can't possibly be swayed to either side of the spectrum.. they don't care who benefits more from their decision. But that's just my opinion on the topic at hand. You can choose to ignore it, agree with it or disagree with it.
Logged

If they stand behind you, give them Protection.
If they stand besides you, give them Respect.
If they stand against you, SHOW NO MERCY!

Ace

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +68/-8
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1225
    • View Profile
Re: Council Members as Judges, Pt. 2
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2017, 04:29:58 AM »

Time to speak up. =)

New rules, amendments, etc., that should be voted by everyone. Afterall, that is what governs the Council. ;)
Any person, council member or not, can put up a vote-- council members should do that! :D
But, all should have a say.

On other matters, the council has the sole say. But as it relates to topics like this, seems like an everyone" matter. ^^
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 04:33:31 AM by Ace »
Logged

KayentaMoenkopi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +87/-94
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2280
    • View Profile
Re: Council Members as Judges, Pt. 2
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2017, 02:35:28 PM »

I am really kind of shocked to see this topic.

Council member do not make bijuu rules. The community makes them. So it really doesn't matter what council is in office at the time. It has absolutely no weight at all.

Council members can't just go around voting among themselves on rules to change. That is corruption of the highest form.

As a member of the community they can vote on these things right along with everyone else.


And I am sorry that there doesn't seem to be very many people on SL interested in the bijuu anymore. But unless the community votes to change the rule, there really isn't anything the council can do to change that. It might be time to go out and make some friends, to stop making bijuu things so hateful, and attract some new blood into the fold.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]
 

Page created in 0.122 seconds with 34 queries.