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Author Topic: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)  (Read 3555 times)

Rusaku

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2017, 02:24:38 am »

I'm going ahead and making a new post instead of editing the last one. People posted after me, so it might not show up as new or something.

I want to preface this response with a bit of friendly advice for Jay, from a self proclaimed veteran, about the etiquette of forum zone fighting. First would be to never make unsubstantiated claims as serious as the one you did on Warren. Itís a form of character assassination that I donít bode well with, and obviously doesn't with others, as seen with Tobias.
Second is that taking an argument public is the last contingency someone should use, and only if you have solid arguments to verify your claims, otherwise itís just going to be embarrassing if the topic does not go your way.

I am going to try and address each point as Jay brought them up, and will do my best to illustrate my points so they are easily digestible.

Just as Jay began with the mokuton clones, so will I. You misunderstood what I was referencing with the ďFuture tenseĒ comment previously. I was referring to your regenerative ability being stated to happen over time, not the actions of your clones. You then go on to describe what ĎDirectlyí means. If you want to go with the literal definition of directly, then there would have been zero distance between the clone and my puppet, meaning they might as well have been touching bellies. If that were the case, you wouldnít have been able to deliver that strike to begin with, as you say it happened. Though that is not the case, as I you can see here: 

Quote
While the Manji leader was correct in his assumption that the Marionettes were not at the same skill as their real life counterparts physically, having the very ground in which they stand act in their favor while simultaneously hindering the opponent would lessen that gap in ability enough for them both to properly evade the masterful, but simplistic forward strikes that were intended to hit each one. To do this, both would simply leap from whatever tree they were currently running on onto an adjacent branch while the forest continued itís effect from the previous round of trying to mutilate the trio.
       

I mention that the puppet move to jump away from the trees they were currently running on. ĎWereí being the key word. I did not say that they continued running until the bunshin appeared, instead saying that they lept away while the forest attempted to hinder the clones, allowing them to avoid the strike. I could also probably go into how your using the Uzumaki sealing technique incorrectly, but I think Iíll save that for later depending on how this goes.

In regards to the forest itself, you imply that Iíve somehow started to god mod and Auto hit you, when thatís just not true. If you were to headbutt the Kusanagi as I swung it at you, would your head not be cut off? If I lept into a fireball would I not be burned? For you to suggest that this forest is somehow undodgeable is ludicrous. You could have opted to instead destroy the trees, or jump above them, or move deep underground. Instead, you chose to jump into them with the idea in your head that you were just fast enough to evade it and that was your mistake. Just because someone is punishing you for making a huge error does not suddenly make the move god mod.

Now we move onto the regeneration. I donít feel like I need to delve into this too much, considering Warren has already made his ruling, and I did agree to your terms, but I have some things I want to address. First is the idea that youíre somehow immune to cellular deterioration because of immortality. I want to snuff that out right now, because there is no logic behind that. If your immortality is anything like Hidanís, there is nothing to suggest such immunity. Best case scenario, you become a disembodied brain in a jar because your body couldn't create cells anymore, but your consciousness just refuses to fade away. If your custom immortality somehow also covers how the cells react once they have reached the Ďestablishedí limit that one's cells can split, then nevermind.

The gravity seals have already been picked apart by Warren and Tobias. Itís incorrect science that only worked in an anime that is entirely separate from Naruto aside from the company that published them. My only real point to make is that the Math you presented, which was debunked by Tobias, would only make your weights about 5000 pounds heavier than Leeís individual weights in part one.

Though I would like to address your implication that removing your gravity seals makes you 8 times faster than before. For one, this is why I have joined the ďNo quantificationĒ team for supplementary techniques. Please refer to this manga pannel:


Here is states that curse mark level 2 makes you 10x stronger, and Sasukeís Curse seal of Heaven is exponentially stronger than Jiroboís as stated in the canon. Then, if you look at the page for the first gate, it says it increases your physical parameters by 5. Yet, here on SL, we say Sage mode is only a 3x buff and somehow Kurama chakra mode is a 6x buff. So is Jiroboís curse mark level 2 somehow stronger than Kurama chakra mode? There are so many holes in trying to add multipliers to our characters that it just makes more sense to get rid of them, and make some kind of chart that illustrates where each supplement stands compared to the others. 

Letís move onto Jayís response about his numerous speed buffs.

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Sage Mode, doesn't seem to need a hand seal to activate it. No hand seals have been shown to activate this technique   

Well I just donít think thatís true. Every example I can find of a person entering sage mode, unless being aided by Kurama or Sennika, have needed to at the very least bring their hands together. If you can provide one example of someone entering sage mode without the aforementioned aids, then Iíll concede to that fact.

You then go on to mention your pulse shaping technique, which allows you to activate techniques practically as fast as you can flow your chakra. That, as far as Iím concerned, does not remove the fact that you have to activate each individually seeing as I canít think of a single example of any person being able to cast that number of high level jutsu simultaneously. The fact remains that youíre still performing 3 different techniques in a timeframe that is numerous times faster than the blink of an eye.

I will go ahead and compound your bit about Itachi and SO6P Naruto as well. Itachiís sickness can almost entirely be disregarded here I feel like. I believe the entire point of Kirin was to illustrate the speed and power that Susanoo can possess. In fact, Iím pretty sure the Wikia page references the speed of Itachiís Susanoo as a highly regarded feat. Itís application is nearly instantaneous. I want to also point out that Itachi was able to watch Sasuke jump into the air, raise his hand, form the dragon, watch as the dragon chilled in the air for a bit while zetsu talked, then activated Susanoo as it was coming down. Meanwhile when fighting Naruto, Sasuke did not parade the technique around and immediately activated it, not giving Naruto any time to react. It was a simple twitch of the hand, and BOOM the dragon was hitting Naruto. Just to take a look at the difference in how the same technique was applied in those two battles. Itís dramatically, and thematically different.

Warren already made his piece about the Mokuton. All I want to add is that it's literally all around you, so simply jumping to either side probably isn't going to help. Though we will see how you decide to handle it, and if further discussion needs to happens from there. I will say though, I would much rather have the repost. It just means you don't get the opportunity to make anymore mistakes, especially if you are just going to passively regenerate any damage done in an instant. You're down a resource I'm not. 

The accusations of favoritism was already addressed by Tobias and by my initial statement. Itís in horrible taste, and has no proof to justify it. Youíre claiming bias because Warren is reviewing the post that I brought to him. You posted accepting my actions as valid, so for you try and backstep is a waste of breath.

The speed my clone was moving was because of Attack Prevention Technique, or Hiding in Surface depending on who you talk too. It mentions allowing you to move around at high speeds, and undetectable.

Finally, I would like to address your mention of Madara. We were using him as an example, because he was literally a god mod character within the story of Naruto. Kishimoto admitted that he didnít know how he was going to legitimately kill Madara within his own story. I bring him up because he is the only example of a character that has shown capabilities even close to what youíre claiming. Though if we want to talk about dick riding, and mind you this is where I am going to get a little bit less cordial, is you referencing Athos 18 times (an obvious exaggeration). He is by far one of the worst people you could possibly try using as a measuring stick for your physical feats. Not only is his character not even recognized by some people on SL, but nearly everything he claims can in some way argued to be god mod. I for one, am one of those people who refute his asinine claims of destroying mountains with a single punch, or having a fighting style that blatantly says he is better than everyone else, or any other random technique heís made. I wonít delve into how Gary stue of a character he is, but instead will leave you with this: I, Alek Clark, under the persona of Rusaku Otsutsuki, do not acknowledge Athos as a valid character. So for you to use him as the measuring stick, means literally nothing and will do more harm than good from this point forward.


There will be things I missed. There might be things I didn't address properly. Though at the end of the day it really does not matter. Warren made his ruling, and Jay made a comment about making the repost, so there really ins't anything else to argue. Once he makes his repost, I will decide if anymore discussion needs to take place.
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Rusaku

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2017, 01:33:51 am »

Continuing publically.

For the sake of transparency, provided below will be context and quotes from messages sent to Jay and Warren regarding issues I found with Jayís most recent response. Minor errors that I want to be addressed before continuing. This is what I sent to those two, it being the same message for both.

Quote
I have a number of issues about your most recent post and would like to address them before moving any further. The most easily addressed is the misconception about the flight technique. They are not in any way separate techniques. Slís page for the ďFlight TechniqueĒ Directly references Onoki and his ability to fly because of it. If you reference the page for Lightweight Rock Technique, you will find this quote: ďThe atmosphere, along with their body, can be lightened in order to take flight and increasing their maneuverability.Ē The page SL uses is outdated, made during a time in which we didnít have the name of the technique he was using. So you are still bound by the rules of that move, contrary to what you said in your post.

Next, I donít agree with the concept that with an incomplete understanding of Dust Release, one should be able to produce something thatís objectively better than the base technique. Dust Releaseís entire shtick is that it requires specific geometric shape transformation to use, and that takes a while to produce, because itís difficult. So to circumvent the weaknesses of it entirely by creating Jinton Nagashi on the fly really grinds my gears.

There is no canon example that I can find which showcases a characterís ability to produce a lethal effect on par with a regular elemental technique, let alone a KT, by ejecting unrefined chakra. The closest thing I could reference was the One Body Blow technique through the gentle fist, because when it was first introduced there was no name given to us and it was assumed to be raw chakra flow. Even then, it was actually a calculated technique all along. So for you to shoot unrefined chakra at me which contains the natures in question, makes me think all thatís going to happen is the Chakra Induction Papers in my pocket are gonna start acting funny. You're not actually making anything if the chakra is raw and unrefined. It's just chakra at that point.

I also kinda want to address some stuff that has less to do with your techniques themselves. I know we like to assume a thing or two here in these fights when it comes to observing details so we can maintain the upper hand, but I am starting to feel like youíre metagaming right now. It seems to me like Jay knows an awful lot about Rusaku having only met this one time. You know I have Mokuton and Kaguya, yet jay has not seen either of them. You just knew that I was setting up Kirin, yet itís one of the least used lighting moves in my opinion. You acted like you knew what my Tenseigan was, despite me having never really used it in a public way. Iím starting to notice a trend, I want it to get toned way back. If I have been doing this to you up until this point, let me know. Because itís really fucking annoying, and I wouldn't want to be doing it to you.


In response, Jay sent me this:

Quote
I'm gonna answer things out of order.

From the moment I did the Ice Pulse technique in the battle royale, I knew I would love to do the same for Dust/Decay. Through that, and my series of Gaibu/External Techniques, I knew those would be the first instances in which they would be used. I'm used to 360 degree usage of techniques and worked on the pure chakra control to make it a possibility, knowing that I would need it for the things I imagine. This isn't something that was 'on the fly'. To you, it may seem so, but nope, I've held that in since the beginning, mentioning I would need to rely on the "Raw forms of the elements." In essence, it is the ice pulse technique, simply with Dust Release chakra. I'm sure the addition of the buffs would make up for the lack of refinement/time. There doesn't need to be a canon counterpart for Dust Release outside of 3D objects, as its been used outside of it, in its Raw State. Plus... since it was 360, all around me, that's a sphere... which is 3 dimensional...

For the Flight Technique part, when the name of the technique was revealed, that page should have been merged or dropped. Since those words and complete concepts hadn't been mentioned in that specific page, I don't feel as if I need to be bound by it. Even then, it doesn't matter, as I said "it didn't matter." That quote doesn't even mention anything about being incapable of doing anything that I have shown doing.

For the other stuff. Just like you claim to have a file on me, I have a file on you. For those like us, leaders of spy organizations, this doesn't seem all that farfetched. The only difference is I put yours together when I had a bit of Ray's blood. He was your student before he was Athos' so I don't believe its farfetched to have a limited knowledge of your existence. Other than that, you're a known individual. If you can claim to have my file when I don't do anything, then I don't believe its, again, farfetched for a more notable individual to be on everyone's database. You claimed knowledge of my ability of Shadow Manipulation through name. I claim to know about the Tenseigan through your name. Curious about whether you have it and concluded that you do. Names can be a foreshadow to possible abilities.

When I make mention of Mokuton and Kaguya, I do it in an OOC manner, talking to myself about what could be next. You do the same, mention ways to work around things. I'm not working in the dark, you are because you didn't read that file. Kirin is a technique that's always a possibility when there's a thunderstorm. Hell, I could do it right now. I could've prevented you from doing it. Up to the point you actually sent your chakra into the air, I acted like I didn't know it would be Kirin, but I was more than aware of the possibility. Metagaming is a thin line when playing word games. Its why I write out my suspicions and other thoughts, but it only seems to backfire and place me at fault.

Back onto the issue of the Flight Technique, I just remembered the progenitor of the reason why I know the technique. I got my version from my original gift from my false God, having managed to reverse engineered it for use outside of needing the God. I simplify it as the Flight Technique, because that's what it is. I found the page's lack of details and basic picture a good fit for it, thus opted not to edit it. It simply mentions that it's a technique which allows Onoki to fly and that he can transfer it over to others. There isn't even a related technique tag, so, loophole on that end. If not, doesn't matter as a lack of gravity, only makes it so that the energy that propelled me forward doesn't even need to work all that hard to, again, propel me forward.

Circumventing weaknesses is what we do. Hell, you did that before we even started the fight. I've already explained what this.. Jinton Nagashi, as you've called it, is, so Senjutsu/Devil buffed, should be enough to gap the difference. Even then, I don't see the sphere even entering my body. Close enough, the Senjutsu/Devil buff would cause it to erode and collapse, prematur


What I sent to him was written while I was at work and had 10 minutes to analyze his response and craft my own. I donít believe I properly articulated my thoughts and ideas or addressed Jayís own rebuttals in that short amount of time, but I will still provide the response for reference.

Quote
If you have a citation which proves to me the existence of the dust release application shown here outside of this fight, then I'll concede that it was not made on the fly. Otherwise I stand by the notion that you cant just fart out a dust release wind and have it act like the actual techniques. Calling the chakra raw and unrefined is contradictory to what jutsu are, which is the exact opposite of those two things.

You directly call the technique you're using the Flight Technqiue. If you follow the technique listed on your page which is also called the flight technique, it takes you to the page which was created before the light weight boulder technique was officially labeled. That page even goes on to directly reference Onoki and his ability to fly meaning it's just the light weight rock technique. With that being the case, certain abilities you are trying to stack don't work, so it actually matters quite a bit.

What I'm reading right now is you trying to justify meta gaming. I made the offhand comment about having a file on you for filler content, because I also mention that I've gained no information despite having it. Rusaku is well known, but his abilities are not. You can't just use Ray as a proxy for having any information on me, because I bet if I message him right now he'll tell me exactly how much information he gave you and Athos about me Ic. I also don't recall saying I knew you had shadow techniques, instead saying I knew what to look for if they were used. I've never shown Tensigan is public where the information could get out, so what Otsutsuki have you met that also have the Tenseigan? And finally, how many people have you seen use Kirin? I know of at least 10 different reason to cause Natural rain, so to jump immediately to Kirin is pretty suspicious.

I'm obviously not going to stop the fight over Metagaming, but if the trend continues, I might Have to put your teeth to the curb. 


Now that everyoneís caught up, I will reiterate some of the ideas I was attempting to convey to Jay.

First is the Dust Release. I made mention that to say the chakra being raw and unrefined is contradictory to what Jutsu even are on a fundamental level. He says that itís based around his ice pulse technique, but makes no mention of it in his actual response. He makes mention of a pulse, but he also describes his chakra activating like a ďpulseĒ, so itís just semantics. I also say the notion that his technique is working in a spherical geometric shape is a stretch. I would still like to see some kind of reference to your ability to do this at all with Dust Release, because if you lack the knowledge to perform even the most basic of Jinton techniques, how can you produce something that is objectively more powerful with considerably less drawbacks? Itís an instant dust release AOE that requires no prep time and has undefined range.

At the end of the day, my stance is that heís just shooting chakra with specific natures assigned to it. That would probably just make the chakra induction papers in my pocket to ignite. Jay is obviously encouraged to respond, assuming Warren isnít going to jump in and add his input, now that things have been organized.

I want to address the flight technique, though I donít feel it needs much attention. I will reiterate that if you look at Jayís page and find flight technique, it leads to this page:

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Flight_Technique

That page directly references Onoki as being the reason he can fly and transfer it to others. I have to assume that this is the technique that Jay is using, because he continuously calls it the flight technique, and he links that specific page.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Earth_Release:_Light-Weight_Rock_Technique

If you now turn your attention to the above link, you will find that this is the expanded upon version of the move Jay is using. This is also taking credit for Onokiís flight. It uses the same picture, and has direct quotes taken from the page Jay has listed as his flight technique. Logic tells me that Jay is using the Light Weight Rock Technique.

Finally, for the metagaming. I stand by pretty much all of what I said before. I mentioned that there was a file, so I could build our pseudo-plot, but then entirely disregarded it because it had not been read yet, so I couldnít cheat. I gained no intel on your character because of that throw away file comment. You canít just claim to have substantial information on a person when youíve never investigated them, leader of an organization or not. Then you go on to use Ray as a proxy, and I would love to ask him exactly how much information heís been giving you on me. I also donít recall ever claiming to know you had shadow manipulation techniques due to your surname. I know I mentioned having the information on what to look for if those techniques got used, because I used to use them myself. Is that what you are refering too? I just donít think that merritts you knowing I have the Tenseigan because my name is Otsutsuki. That was a clan entirely unheard of in the Naruto-verse, until Hagoromo actually showed up and started giving the rundown. So does everyone just know that the Otsutsuki is around? Is that base knowledge that everyone has? Iíve been trying to keep my clanís secrets hidden all this time, so I gotta know if thatís even necessary. Statistically, the Otsutsuki have been depicted with Rinnegan far more often than Tenseigan. Wouldnít it have been more likely to assume Rinnegan?

Also, you saying that the comments about my KG are OOC, then isnít that almost textbook metagaming? Itís like youíre using OOC information to propel your character forward. Thatís perhaps something I would like Warren to make mention of when he replies
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Vail

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2017, 09:24:37 am »

I agree with everything Rusaku has said here, but more specifically:

Jinton Nagashi? No. Just no. Perhaps you're confusing the name of the KT itself (Dust / Particle Release) with what it actually does. It seems pretty clear that the name is a poetic way of describing what it turns you into when you get hit by it. The techniques have been specifically described as creating three dimensional geometric shapes to contain the EXPLOSION produced by the orb floating in the center.

"The sphere then seems to explode with a tremendous amount of force, while the exterior walls of the structure effectively restrict the size of the blast radius, resulting in the destruction of everything and anyone caught within as they are pulverised into minute particles of dust." - http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Dust_Release:_Detachment_of_the_Primitive_World_Technique

It doesn't create some special Dust Release chakra that magically disintegrates you into dust because of some inherent quality of the chakra itself. It produces an explosion so powerful that it disintegrates you, presumably with concussive force. This is further supported by the borders of the 3 dimensional structure expanding outward due to the blast wave produced by the explosion itself.

So manipulating "raw dust chakra" isn't going to just disintegrate anything it touches. That's nonsensical and completely unsupported by the textual evidence.




Also, we've already had words about you using the Manji Organization to retroactively claim having information on villages and people when you haven't even done the writing work to establish agents in those areas or taken the time to write them actually *discovering* that information in the first place. Stop metagaming. >_>

There are like two mainstream SL RPers who have Tenseigan right now. Rusaku, and Miyuu. Neither of which have shown their Tenseigan to anyone from Uzushio as far as I know. There was the fight / rp that Rusa and I were doing, but we scrapped that.
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Rusaku

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 02:46:58 am »

I would still prefer if the judge and two combatants were the only ones participating in this thread. I don't know if it's any different now considering it's a separate thread than the fight, but I don't want the community jumping in an muddying the conversation. It could lead the a mod attacking one person or another and that's never fun. 

About the potential metagaming, I want to make it known that I don't want there to be any particular ruling about this. I would just like for there to be maybe a warning, so it won't keep happening.
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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 04:22:45 am »

Alright my bad. I figured this was open for public discussion at this point.
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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2017, 05:08:41 pm »

I would still prefer if the judge and two combatants were the only ones participating in this thread. I don't know if it's any different now considering it's a separate thread than the fight, but I don't want the community jumping in an muddying the conversation. It could lead the a mod attacking one person or another and that's never fun. 

About the potential metagaming, I want to make it known that I don't want there to be any particular ruling about this. I would just like for there to be maybe a warning, so it won't keep happening.

It is up to the combatants, but the thread was separated for the benefit of the main talkers to not have to dig through commentary to find the post and to keep a record of what was already talked about and hashed through.

Alright my bad. I figured this was open for public discussion at this point.

It's preferable to keep it to the combatants and the judge. Getting jumped by a mod without any of the main participants taking issue with it first is unlikely, especially since this is not the main battle thread.
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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2017, 10:49:57 pm »

I'm going to make my reply short, or as short as possible.

For the topic of Dust Release. I would like to say that the Kekkei Tota has one single Technique of demonstration. That single technique has variations in which it can be used. The Detachment of the Primitive World Technique (as you point out) is a technique where its specifically designed to hold the 3D shapes around for containment and better control of the Destructive chakra in the center. In the example of Bocc's use against Yujo, he uses the shape, but its at a speed faster than mine. Athos' use in the FFA totally disregards the use of the containment, simply relying on the speed of the orbs and the impact. In my meaning of the words, "raw" and "unrefined" I'm stating that it's just the unrelenting Dust Release Chakra (Raw) and there's no form of containment to keep it from going as far as I need it to go (Unrefined). In regards to the amount of force in my pulse of energy, I mention that it would come at a speed that was immediate upon the clone's close in. This means that it would be moving at relative speeds to the clone, and at the speed it was moving, there would be more than enough concussive force to harm the clone enough to cause a dispel. Considering I was planning for a larger-scale version of this application, I took the distance into consideration and believed the small scale version would be much better. Sure, without the buffs, I wouldn't have tried this, but with the technique is multiplied in destructive capabilities, as well as the speed its traveling. I never stated the pulse to be Jinton Nagashi, that was Rusaku who gave it that name. I didn't realize I had to state where I got the inspiration from, considering last time I mentioned an ability it was considered an action, so I was being careful. I guess that's my bad. The pulse that I was personally imagining, in using both Ice and Dust applications, is derived from the EMP, which happens had a pretty amazing speed.

Still on the topic of the most basic of Dust Release techniques is an impossibility as there's only One Canon Example for the whole Kekkei Tota. In my mind, the most basic would be chakra control, which I've done. I state that I never went around in creating any of my own techniques, I don't state that I don't know how to use the chakra. I realize that's a double negative and that's the point. There is two techniques that exist in video games, but it's basically the same technique, just, again, used a bit differently. Should I move forward and assume that every technique must be derived from the Detachment of the Primitive World Technique? If so, I'll do just that and make my techniques with that in mind.

Onto the Flight Technique, I'll direct you to the actual inspiration for my Flight Technique.
Quote from: Jay Wikia
Flight Technique Through a manipulation of the air currents underneath him and a steady, and very miniscule, output of chakra, he's able to lift himself into the air and fly. The amount of chakra used equals the speed at which he's flying, while still only using a very small amount of chakra. This in itself required extensive training in chakra control. Even still, he's looking for a way to reverse engineer this ability so that he may use it without the use of his Eternal Mangekyo, which he's made no leeway as of yet.
On the subject of the reverse engineering, I've accomplished that on the site. On the subject of the Flight Technique page, again, I saw its lack of detail and basic picture sufficient enough to not warrant an edit and hijack. I see now that I should have just went through the trouble of putting together my own. And again, in what way is the manner of my flight a problem? Whether I'm 200+ or 2, it doesn't change anything in my post or the one prior, which you've already approved of when you posted.

On the subject of metagaming, I would like to again address your mention of the file. How did you obtain that? Granted you just took control of the Foundation, I would have to put that on the person in control before. But, like the past made relative, no Konoha ANBU have been in Uzu or anywhere around me any sort of intel. There's the case where I was in the actual village, but both cases I entered without giving my name or association, soo.... I find that there's no conceivable way for there to be a file, throwaway or not.

For me, I do a process of elimination and a guesstimation on my opponents abilities. I know you don't have the Rinnegan, because you have the Byakugan, same for Sharingan. So, in the context of the rules, you must have Sage Mode. For the others, its a bit more difficult. Unless I see it, I won't know if you actually have Wood/Ice and Gates/Bone. But, until I do, I assume the opposite that I have, because I would rather fight my opposite. In regards of the Tenseigan, that was a hunch more than an expectation. I'm aware of the capabilities of a Byakugan ascending into a Tenseigan, not the process. Hell I believed Ray's Byakugan (when he had it) would ascend to a Tenseigan. I actually hoped for it, but that's merely hearsay at this point (considering the time I choose to state this assumption). The fact that I see it happening lowers my personal surprise and allows me to keep from being overwhelmed by its usage. That's my personal mentality, with no meaning to metagame.

On the Ray front, through my ingesting of his blood, I did state that I would obtain a portion of his memories. If he forgot, that's on him, but I remember clearly. Doing so is non consensual, so he wouldn't have to tell me anything. Obtaining information in a non consensual manner is approvable on the site when used in correct fashions. I would love to re-spread out my peeps on some official shit, but I'm waiting until other things have been settled, so I'm not really claiming to get any info from the Manji Org.

I realize that its not short, so... my bad.
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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2017, 01:39:13 am »

I'm going to make my reply short, or as short as possible.

For the topic of Dust Release. I would like to say that the Kekkei Tota has one single Technique of demonstration. That single technique has variations in which it can be used. The Detachment of the Primitive World Technique (as you point out) is a technique where its specifically designed to hold the 3D shapes around for containment and better control of the Destructive chakra in the center. In the example of Bocc's use against Yujo, he uses the shape, but its at a speed faster than mine. Athos' use in the FFA totally disregards the use of the containment, simply relying on the speed of the orbs and the impact. In my meaning of the words, "raw" and "unrefined" I'm stating that it's just the unrelenting Dust Release Chakra (Raw) and there's no form of containment to keep it from going as far as I need it to go (Unrefined). In regards to the amount of force in my pulse of energy, I mention that it would come at a speed that was immediate upon the clone's close in. This means that it would be moving at relative speeds to the clone, and at the speed it was moving, there would be more than enough concussive force to harm the clone enough to cause a dispel. Considering I was planning for a larger-scale version of this application, I took the distance into consideration and believed the small scale version would be much better. Sure, without the buffs, I wouldn't have tried this, but with the technique is multiplied in destructive capabilities, as well as the speed its traveling. I never stated the pulse to be Jinton Nagashi, that was Rusaku who gave it that name. I didn't realize I had to state where I got the inspiration from, considering last time I mentioned an ability it was considered an action, so I was being careful. I guess that's my bad. The pulse that I was personally imagining, in using both Ice and Dust applications, is derived from the EMP, which happens had a pretty amazing speed.

Still on the topic of the most basic of Dust Release techniques is an impossibility as there's only One Canon Example for the whole Kekkei Tota. In my mind, the most basic would be chakra control, which I've done. I state that I never went around in creating any of my own techniques, I don't state that I don't know how to use the chakra. I realize that's a double negative and that's the point. There is two techniques that exist in video games, but it's basically the same technique, just, again, used a bit differently. Should I move forward and assume that every technique must be derived from the Detachment of the Primitive World Technique? If so, I'll do just that and make my techniques with that in mind.

Onto the Flight Technique, I'll direct you to the actual inspiration for my Flight Technique.
Quote from: Jay Wikia
Flight Technique Through a manipulation of the air currents underneath him and a steady, and very miniscule, output of chakra, he's able to lift himself into the air and fly. The amount of chakra used equals the speed at which he's flying, while still only using a very small amount of chakra. This in itself required extensive training in chakra control. Even still, he's looking for a way to reverse engineer this ability so that he may use it without the use of his Eternal Mangekyo, which he's made no leeway as of yet.
On the subject of the reverse engineering, I've accomplished that on the site. On the subject of the Flight Technique page, again, I saw its lack of detail and basic picture sufficient enough to not warrant an edit and hijack. I see now that I should have just went through the trouble of putting together my own. And again, in what way is the manner of my flight a problem? Whether I'm 200+ or 2, it doesn't change anything in my post or the one prior, which you've already approved of when you posted.

On the subject of metagaming, I would like to again address your mention of the file. How did you obtain that? Granted you just took control of the Foundation, I would have to put that on the person in control before. But, like the past made relative, no Konoha ANBU have been in Uzu or anywhere around me any sort of intel. There's the case where I was in the actual village, but both cases I entered without giving my name or association, soo.... I find that there's no conceivable way for there to be a file, throwaway or not.

For me, I do a process of elimination and a guesstimation on my opponents abilities. I know you don't have the Rinnegan, because you have the Byakugan, same for Sharingan. So, in the context of the rules, you must have Sage Mode. For the others, its a bit more difficult. Unless I see it, I won't know if you actually have Wood/Ice and Gates/Bone. But, until I do, I assume the opposite that I have, because I would rather fight my opposite. In regards of the Tenseigan, that was a hunch more than an expectation. I'm aware of the capabilities of a Byakugan ascending into a Tenseigan, not the process. Hell I believed Ray's Byakugan (when he had it) would ascend to a Tenseigan. I actually hoped for it, but that's merely hearsay at this point (considering the time I choose to state this assumption). The fact that I see it happening lowers my personal surprise and allows me to keep from being overwhelmed by its usage. That's my personal mentality, with no meaning to metagame.

On the Ray front, through my ingesting of his blood, I did state that I would obtain a portion of his memories. If he forgot, that's on him, but I remember clearly. Doing so is non consensual, so he wouldn't have to tell me anything. Obtaining information in a non consensual manner is approvable on the site when used in correct fashions. I would love to re-spread out my peeps on some official shit, but I'm waiting until other things have been settled, so I'm not really claiming to get any info from the Manji Org.

I realize that its not short, so... my bad.

What Bocc and Athos have done in other fights is pointless here. They are not the authority of what actually works in this game. What flies with them does not fly with everyone. You're modeling yourself after people who often got away with MURDER when it came to fairness in SL, because no one cared enough to correct them, or didn't feel like they needed to be belittled. Those are bad people to use as role models, period. 

I do not agree that you can just shoot out the concussive force of dust release explosions without the proper shape manipulation regardless of how you try and dance around the terms.

The fact that there is only one cannon example of Dust Release should be an indicator that something like this wasn't within the realm of possibility. Two confirmed generations of Tsuchikage used Dust Release, yet neither expanded further beyond the one technique, instead opting to alter the geometric shape alone.

I don't remember you going into detail about it being some custom flight technique, instead just quoting the name of the jutsu, which is linked to the light weight rock technique right on your wikia.

Finally, drop the file nonsense. There is no file. This is an OOC battle and as you said I recently overtook ROOT. I mention a file, because we are leaders of intelligence organizations and wanted to build a psudo-plot for the fight. I specifically disregard the file because I'm not trying to cheat. The fact you're hung up on that at all is a little comical, I'm not gonna lie.

Rinnegan and Byakugan are not mutually exclusive, just look at Momoshiki. If you're trying to use the context of the OOC rules to drive your character's in game knowledge, that's metagaming.

Blood does not contain memories. Memories are physically embedded in the brain, so consuming someones blood wouldn't give you that access. It's different with souls, like the human path, because souls are ill defined in Naruto. Intentionally ambiguous to serve the plot when necessary, like how the Reaper Death seal does not grant the memories of the people whose souls are stolen, but the Human path does.  Blood on the other hand, has shown no explicitly unique trait specific to Naruto that would separate it from blood in the real world.     

Also, how do you just know that I have showed Ray my Tenseigan? Because I'm his teacher? That means absolutely nothing. Kakashi didn't show the children his Sharingan until he was faced with an opponent who required it. Jiraiya didn't tell Naruto he knew sage mode, or even that his father was the 4th Hokage. Teachers can keep secrets from their students. To just assume you have information on someone because of some 6 degrees of separation-esk logic is made on a foundation of sand. Perhaps you need to ASK before just assuming.

I would like to invite Warren to participate as well. Both combatants have stated their sides and had ample opportunities to defend their stances. No reason to let arguments delineate when a simple ruling can keep this fight going.   
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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2017, 02:12:29 am »

Hookay. I'll actually make this short.

This is naruto, not hellsing. There are no memories in blood of any kind, even chakra has them only if they were specifically sealed into it. It may have worked for you in RP otherwise, but in this fight that won't be an acceptable excuse. Likewise for Rusaku, if there is no notable intel on Jay or anything at konoha, all he would know is what he's learned of him IC otherwise.

As for flying, if the SL page actually is out of date that bad and somehow nobody ever told Jay about it, he can't really be blamed for it in this instance. However allowing him to instead use any other flight technique he has available as a substitute because of that, isn't fair to Rusaku either. Due to this I find the fairest compromise to be that his flying for this fight will be treated the same as Onoki's trick, minus the weight loss. Takes chakra to use/maintain, the faster you wish to go the more it takes, no special tricks/empowerments for it.

The dust release wave, or whatever one wishes to call it, is a no-go. At a theoretical level sure, if you were capable of dust release it would be possible to release earth-fire-wind chakra on its own. However characteristics of dust at every single usage of it ever, have been that it takes time to set up and requires the hands to do so, is rather chakra-taxing, and that they achieve their destructive power due to all the chakra used in the jutsu being confined within that 3D shape. Your wave has none of those, and worse still to quote you yourself, its raw and unrefined. Its basically not dust release at this point, and even if you were to make some technique utilized exactly in this manner it still wouldn't work, because you can only use things your character knew before the fight started, not after.

TL;DR = the 'dust release wave' is going to do basically nothing, at most perhaps singe Rusaku's eyebrows or turn the paper slips in his pocket wonky.

Since Jay has already reposted once and I'm going to assume he has zero intent to give up, ruling is Rusaku will respond to Jay's post with the flying and dust release wave portions treated as mentioned above in this post.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 05:15:41 pm by Warren »
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Rusaku

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2017, 11:12:58 pm »

Right,

I don't have the information I said I don't have and Jay doesn't have the information he never acquired.  That one was easy.

His flight technique is...still the flight technique, but not. With how Warren put it, I can live with that compromise.

Dust Release fails and I react accordingly.

I think that ruling is pretty just. I'll go ahead and write up my post, unless something else develops here.
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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2017, 05:10:57 pm »

Here we are again, discussing everything that is wrong with Jayís post.

First I want to address his use of Shuriken shadow clone to create the water necessary for his Owatatsumi. Jay seems to misunderstand how that particular technique works, so I want to clear that up. The water he produces with that technique will not be natural. Itís like saying a regular shadow clone isnít composed of chakra. Obviously they are; anything created through a jutsu is going to be composed of chakra, save for a few outliers like Kirin. If he had used a nearby lake or something of the like to produce this water, then maybe it would be more believable that the water was natural, but this is not the case.

I also want to look at his claims that the water is highly electrified. The only source for the electrified portion of that water dragon came from 3 lighting bolts Rusaku used to destroy the bombs. If this is in fact the case, there are only two ways this can go.

First is the reality that three lightning bolts applied to 0.3% of Jayís technique would not be enough to electrify a mile high dragon with numerous ratios that need to be taken into account like height, width, conductivity and many others. There simply wasnít enough energy to constitute the entire thing being electrified to the extreme Jay is trying to suggest.

The second option is that Jay copied the electricity I applied in addition to the water in order for his dragon to retain those properties. If that is the case, then he has just provided enough chakra to recreate my technique 997 times over and would drain him of all chakra.

Speaking of chakra levels, that is something else I would like to address. For a majority of this fight, Jay has been balancing numerous stacks with no mentions of the strain it would take to do so. He is currently in Raiton chakra mode, Sage mode, Devil Release Mode or whatever, using Mindís eye and Sharingan, while also sustaining a 500 meter barrier and regenerating an entire limb. With all this active, he then goes on to create 93 million gallons of water and shape it with his Sharingan into a mile high leviathan that proceeds to shoot a blast of water that Jay directly compares to an 8 tails Bijudama. I donít care who you are, I refuse to acknowledge that anyone in our verse can balance all of those very different techniques with the ease that Jay suggests. Sage mode alone is supposed to be this insanely difficult thing to have and maintain, yet he has this and 8 other things happening at the same time and is experiencing zero fatigue.

Finally, I want to look at his claims of Masane. If we look at a thread I will be providing below, it shows a 13-5 vote that the twins were killed in an altercation that happened in Amegakure.

http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8558.0.html

     
This happened in 2015, yet Jayís claims of ďeatingĒ her and getting his like...6th kekkei genkai in 2016. This does indeed lead to some ďparadoxĒ as he mentions in his post. Unfortunately, the only paradox has to do with Jay, who was apparently role playing with this girl a year after her untimely death. Though, unfortunately for Jay, he posted accepting her existence. His post has her in mind, mentioning that she would be destroyed by his suiton Bijudama. I just wanted to point out that he is the one who should be worried about his claims.

So to tie this up, I want to ask not only the judge, but also the community: How long am I going to have to deal with this crap? How many times does Jay get to retro post, meta game, god mod, and mess up his own actions before the fight getís called off and a winner decided? Itís not that I canít think of ways to kill him or that Iím having a difficult time, but if he is going to continually break the rules to survive, shouldnít he be penalized? How is it particularly fair that Iíve been abiding by the rules this entire fight, but Jay is not held to the same standard? Look at any competition in history and you will find that the moment one participant breaks the rules, they are disqualified. Sure you could try and use the ďitís a game!Ē argument, but that just wonít cut it. You can play any sport casually. You can go to the basketball court and play a quick game with your buddies, and maybe break a few rules because youíre with friends. But the moment you step into the NBA, you donít get to break those rules anymore. Itís an official competition now, not some game of pick up. Biju fights are the NBA in this analogy, obviously.
   
I want some kind of amendment to the time that this fight can go, or something. A lot of fights have the 30 day rule, then a winner is decided based on the fight thus far. Itís already been like 50 days since the thread was made. Can we put maybe a 2 week timer on it from here forward so this fight can actually come to an end? Thatís still 64 days that the fight went on, twice as long as most people have them go. Weíre two pages deep now, and will probably be 3 by the end of those two weeks. Thatís plenty of fight for Warren to properly judge our ability, seeing as most people get two or three rounds in before that 30 days is up. Have some sympathy for a brother. Look at what I have to put up with here >.>;
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Eric

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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2017, 05:03:41 am »

Quote
1 v 1 IC/OOC 15 Rounds of Fighting (Optional)

Reply #19 is the beginning of round 10, so technically you could carry on to round 15 and then have things end there, or if you to agree yall can end it sooner. There is more I could say but for now I am more curious as to Jay and Warren's response.
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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2017, 10:55:31 pm »

The community can't retro in rules even if it were 600-1 in favor of making the time to post be every 6 hours. Unless I misread what you're asking. I doubt Jay is one to succumb to peer pressure and seeing all our posts to amend the rules tugs at his kindheartedness.

Unless Jay agrees with you then we really have nothing to add but our own opinions. Which we will.

That being said I agree with your post as a whole. Let the fight end in two weeks. It's been a long enough time to show who the better fighter is.
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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2017, 11:47:32 pm »

The community can't retro in rules even if it were 600-1 in favor of making the time to post be every 6 hours. Unless I misread what you're asking. I doubt Jay is one to succumb to peer pressure and seeing all our posts to amend the rules tugs at his kindheartedness.

According to what, though? I cannot stand these tribal rules that are somehow being enforced with no way to actually verify their existence. It's the same with the "acceptance" clause that I mention with the Masane situation. That rule is literally nowhere to be found, it's just something that was coined a few years back so people could screw over others in zone fights. The "community" is the only force in this game that actually has any say in how something goes down. If a fight is going on where there is obvious injustice, shouldn't the community be able to step in and stop whatever's happening?

Say when I win the nine, I make some rule that says I'm the only one who can use jutsu in our fight, then hide it amidst a mass of text that looks similar to the default rule template that people generally use for Biju stuff. It's highly likely that someone could fall pray to that stupid rule in thinking that I was just copy-pasting everyone else's stuff. Is it particularly fair that they have to suffer the remainder of that fight, and end up with a 3 month waiting period because they were cheated? I feel like the community should have plenty of authority to step in and stop that obvious farce of a match.

Quote
1 v 1 IC/OOC 15 Rounds of Fighting (Optional)

Reply #19 is the beginning of round 10, so technically you could carry on to round 15 and then have things end there, or if you to agree yall can end it sooner. There is more I could say but for now I am more curious as to Jay and Warren's response.

I wouldn't be opposed to this. That's 5 whole turns for Jay to try and turn everything around and impress Warren. I can live with this fight for 5 more rounds if it means that I finally get to see a light at the end of this tunnel. Though I'm also not opposed to the two weeks thing I originally suggested and Shadow agreed with, which would probably translate into one or two more rounds if we are hasty.
   
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Re: Jay v Rusaku (discussion)
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2017, 01:23:32 am »

Taking away any personal feelings on the content of the fight itself, I do think it's gone on quite long & wouldn't mind seeing a fair deadline to it in which either character could reasonably gain control/upper hand for the judge to decide as the 'victory moment' for them. One post made by a participant almost every other week (if both participants are taking the max-ish time to respond to each other) honestly feels a tad dull to me, the reader. I get the reasoning, but do agree with Rusaku that it gets quite dull.
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