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Author Topic: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?  (Read 620 times)

Eric

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Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« on: August 16, 2017, 05:39:24 pm »

Recently Yomi brought up an interesting conundrum that could be a problem during the relatively long tenure of current biju holders. I am currently a summoner to the 5-tails and a member of the Council. Optimal is currently a jinchurikii to the 3-tails and primarily serves as a substitute for Sabumaru, a non-jinchurikii. If Rusaku successfully wins the 9-tails from Jay, then there is the possibility of, in the case of Optimal subbing in for Sabu, there definitively being 3 jinchurikii/summoners on the Council (which violates the 2:5 ratio rule regarding tailed beast holders).

My topic title question, depending on the answer, means that the ratio issue will be a problem either sooner or later regarding this substitute position that Optimal holds. Sooner if Substitutes are counted in the ratio by default and later if substitutes would only be counted if they have to sub in for someone.

Either way, it is a problem I'd rather discuss now rather than later now that it has been brought to my attention.
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Dart Terumī

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2017, 09:29:23 pm »

With the lack of actual interest in serving on the Council, then I believe that turning away someone because (s)he possess a bijū is silly.

The ratio was created when there were multiple parties in wanting a chair and to maintain that jincs couldn't stack the rules in their favor. With the current members and potential bijū owners, I know that those individuals won't try to favor themselves when it comes to a fair ruling or an amendment to the current rules.

TL;DR
Suspend the ratio clause as we need people to actually participate in the council. Only reinstate it when more interest and more bijū owners show interest.
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Optimal Saiteki

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2017, 11:53:11 pm »

Honestly, would a 3:4 ratio make that much more of a difference than a 2:5? Holders still wouldn't have majority, or even 50%.

I'll admit though, I don't fully understand the 2:5 rule to begin with.
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Yomi

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2017, 12:31:26 am »

For the record, I'm more concerned on updating the wikia than of this ratio you guys have on the council. I merely asked about it because Eric mentioned he might have to give up his beast, so I'm keeping myself updated so as to reflect it the wikia. If this is not the case, then there's no need to change anything on there.

Quote
Suspend the ratio clause as we need people to actually participate in the council. Only reinstate it when more interest and more bijū owners show interest.
I second this one.
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Old Man Xia

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2017, 12:37:57 am »

For the record, I'm more concerned on updating the wikia than of this ratio you guys have on the council. I merely asked about it because Eric mentioned he might have to give up his beast, so I'm keeping myself updated so as to reflect it the wikia. If this is not the case, then there's no need to change anything on there.

Quote
Suspend the ratio clause as we need people to actually participate in the council. Only reinstate it when more interest and more bijū owners show interest.
I second this one.

I agree with suspending the ratio as well as it will serve no big purpose with the higher majority being non-jinchuriki.
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Old Man Xia

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2017, 12:38:18 am »

For the record, I'm more concerned on updating the wikia than of this ratio you guys have on the council. I merely asked about it because Eric mentioned he might have to give up his beast, so I'm keeping myself updated so as to reflect it the wikia. If this is not the case, then there's no need to change anything on there.

Quote
Suspend the ratio clause as we need people to actually participate in the council. Only reinstate it when more interest and more bijū owners show interest.
I second this one.

I agree with suspending the ratio as well as it will serve no big purpose with the higher majority being non-jinchuriki still.
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Sabumaru

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2017, 03:00:17 am »

For the record, I'm more concerned on updating the wikia than of this ratio you guys have on the council. I merely asked about it because Eric mentioned he might have to give up his beast, so I'm keeping myself updated so as to reflect it the wikia. If this is not the case, then there's no need to change anything on there.

Quote
Suspend the ratio clause as we need people to actually participate in the council. Only reinstate it when more interest and more bijū owners show interest.
I second this one.

I agree with suspending the ratio as well as it will serve no big purpose with the higher majority being non-jinchuriki still.
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Eric

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2017, 05:53:32 am »

So are you saying that a rule change to 3:4 instead of 2:5, or is the proposal to get rid of the ratio system altogether?
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Dart Terumī

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2017, 06:11:13 am »

So are you saying that a rule change to 3:4 instead of 2:5, or is the proposal to get rid of the ratio system altogether?

No changes. It's simply a suspension until more interest is stated in joining the council by non-bijū retainers.
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Eric

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2017, 11:51:02 pm »

So are you saying that a rule change to 3:4 instead of 2:5, or is the proposal to get rid of the ratio system altogether?

No changes. It's simply a suspension until more interest is stated in joining the council by non-bijū retainers.

Since the current Cohort is in effect, I doubt we are going to see a sudden uptick in volunteers. A suspension like this would go on indefinitely, maybe even through the next election, giving it the same effect as a rule change to scrap the ratio altogether.

This next question may sound strange coming from me of all people, but can we just simply suspend one of the Biju Rules if it causes an issue? In my opinion, that does not seem like something that can be done outside of a formal vote on the rule staying in place or not.
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Hades

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2017, 01:54:52 am »


Well, given that substitutes are just that, they have equal right as anyone else to pursue beasts if they please. So substitutes' status as being on one side of the ratio or other are subject to change endlessly while they may never actually hold a council seat.


In that case, it makes more sense to me that the 2:5 ratio be considered a limit rather than a fixed ratio (Unless I'm mistaken, it's already the case that we do not require two council members to have bijū in their possession, simply that we could not have more than two of them in council seats). And in that case, we simply allow substitutes to sub in if they do not exceed the limit, and prevent them from doing so if it would violate the rule.


Of course, it remains a potential problem (especially with only one substitute) that we need to call upon an alternate and all (one) of them may exceed the limit. But regardless, either we would be put in the position of needing to go seeking for a beast-less volunteer. I think that just is the reality and I don't think changes to the rules will produce an end-all solution to the issue of maintaining a cohort balanced between players with and without beasts.
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Eric

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2017, 02:15:08 am »


Well, given that substitutes are just that, they have equal right as anyone else to pursue beasts if they please. So substitutes' status as being on one side of the ratio or other are subject to change endlessly while they may never actually hold a council seat.


In that case, it makes more sense to me that the 2:5 ratio be considered a limit rather than a fixed ratio (Unless I'm mistaken, it's already the case that we do not require two council members to have bijū in their possession, simply that we could not have more than two of them in council seats). And in that case, we simply allow substitutes to sub in if they do not exceed the limit, and prevent them from doing so if it would violate the rule.


Of course, it remains a potential problem (especially with only one substitute) that we need to call upon an alternate and all (one) of them may exceed the limit. But regardless, either we would be put in the position of needing to go seeking for a beast-less volunteer. I think that just is the reality and I don't think changes to the rules will produce an end-all solution to the issue of maintaining a cohort balanced between players with and without beasts.

When you put it that way I suppose it makes sense not to count substitutes when considering the limit (yes, you're right, limit is a more appropriate word to uses than ratio since that's what it is, a limit) although as you say we still have the issue of what happens if members drop out. The upcoming Fall/Winter (since the appointing happened in August, another main election won't be till February) may see some people bow out due to college, work, health, etc.

Biju holders leaving for that reason is unlikely since they would also have to hand over the beast(s) (activity clause), so still a conundrum.

What, other than "I want to judge matches", is a reason for people not to want to be on the Council?

*Edit: I mean since the 2nd Cohort. Things have not been nearly that hectic for the 2nd Cohort compared to the 1st, especially these past few months, so I imagine the reasons have changed since then. *
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 02:16:37 am by Eric »
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Ethaniel

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2017, 08:56:11 am »

Honestly, would a 3:4 ratio make that much more of a difference than a 2:5? Holders still wouldn't have majority, or even 50%.

I'll admit though, I don't fully understand the 2:5 rule to begin with.

That's what I'm thinking as well. As long as the limit remains below a majority, I don't see a problem.
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Sabumaru

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 12:20:24 am »

Suppose 6 jinchuriki and 1 normie made up the council.
As long as the singular normie can point out when the bias of being a host is affecting the choices of the council, all the other members should be able to see it when pointed out and respect it. If not they shouldn't be on the council.

I'm not saying one person needs veto power, just the council should be made up of respectable individuals (and me) who can appreciate when their mistakes, unwitting or otherwise, are pointed out and can take a step back.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Rusaku

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Re: Where does the Sub fit in the 2:5 ratio?
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 12:32:30 am »

Suppose 6 jinchuriki and 1 normie made up the council.
As long as the singular normie can point out when the bias of being a host is affecting the choices of the council, all the other members should be able to see it when pointed out and respect it. If not they shouldn't be on the council.

I'm not saying one person needs veto power, just the council should be made up of respectable individuals (and me) who can appreciate when their mistakes, unwitting or otherwise, are pointed out and can take a step back.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Indeed. Not only that, but outsiders looking in could also point out issues with bias if they find it. They are the source of our votes, so it's important that we impress them as well with out ability to perform in front of an audience.
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