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Author Topic: Established Consequence  (Read 864 times)

Rusaku

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Established Consequence
« on: August 27, 2017, 05:09:51 pm »

In light of my more recent fight, I have come to understand that there is no established consequence for breaking some of the more...overlooked guidelines of SL such as Retroposting and Metagaming. This is something I would like to have addressed for future reference when observing not only a Biju fight, but perhaps even in traditional IC RP.  I realize that there is a footnote saying these things are forbidden in the biju rules, but we should probably solidify what it means to break them.

Retroposting is probably the most repeated offense throughout my history of fighting. Itís a lot easier to just interrupt your opponent from doing what they wanted opposed to waiting for it to happen and react accordingly. I get it. The problem is, retro posting wastes a lot of time and energy. It takes time to write good posts. It takes time to think about what you want your character to do. It takes time to review your work for errors and make sure you're providing an interesting piece of literature that is also effective in the actions themselves. I donít know about you all, but itís very frustrating when I put in all that effort and my entire round is circumvented because you didnít want to deal with the water technique I used at the beginning. If you donít believe that this is an actual issue, just look at the fight Iím having with Jay. 20 days of fighting, arguing and judge rulings tossed in the trash because he reacted to something set into motion 2 full rounds prior, even after being ruled that his initial defence was inadequate.

I suggest putting a set limit on how far back a person can react. Just for example lets say...3 full actions. If it is within the realm of possibility, you can react to upwards of three action prior to your current round. So the beginning of your opponent's most recent set of actions against you. You can obviously still interrupt your opponent within these parameters, but you also can't go back 2 rounds and reto-fix a mistake you made.

Metagaming is not nearly as rampant anymore, but I do still see it as an issue that should receive some attention at least. Itís very easy to blur the lines between what you know, and what your character knows and when that line is crossed, it can lead to you having vitol information on someone that you otherwise shouldnít have. Such examples would be having your character react according to OOC rules. Like assuming someone does not have Rinnegan because they have the Byakugan. Or noting that clones pull from your action count so you shouldnít do something with them because of that.

My suggestion is a ď3 strikes and youíre outĒ kind of clause. If youíre found guilty of metagaming 3 times within a fight, or within a set time period, then you are faced with whatever consequence, be it a loss of your match, or stripping the beast.

Obviously my wounds may be a little fresh from what I am dealing with elsewhere, but I still wanted to bring these issues up with the council all the same. If you all feel these are issues that need addressing as well, please add your own takes on the subject.
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Ethaniel

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2017, 09:46:50 pm »

Please note that this response is not in regards to any specific situation, and any suggestions are meant to be taken in general, and are not considered reprimands, directly or indirectly, to any party.

I can get behind having set consequences for rule-breaking, especially with rules that are there to keep things smooth and enjoyable. The whole reason we have judges to oversee things like this is to help avoid and correct annoying occurrences that disrupt gameplay and/or just make things less than fun for all parties. In the case of retro-posting, I would propose that so long as your opponent isn't rushing (which is a whole different can of worms, and a debate for another time), you should be reacting to actions as they come, point blank. For example, if your opponent uses a technique, such as a cloning jutsu, and can reasonably follow it up with another action before your character could realistically react to the first, I submit that you only be allowed to react to the second action. However, if a judge rules that an action is not viable, at any point, I also submit that the following actions become null, and the fight continue from the last legal action. In the event that this would be a large setback (IE erasing a long string of rounds and possibly compromising the entire match), I submit that the ruling be brought before the Council for judgment. That being said, if you feel an action should be ruled legal or illegal by a judge, you should bring it up as soon as possible, and not wait until such a point that it requires a rollback.

As for metagaming: if a judge rules that a character could not take an action, due to that character not having the required knowledge to make an action, I submit that the action be considered illegal, and the steps outlined above be taken. In the examples given, I would say this: if you can make a solid argument as to why your character would have this knowledge (specifically regarding the Rinnegan/Byakugan), such as the character having gained intimate knowledge of the technique in the past (or similar reasoning, determined by the exact situation), it is up to the judge to declare the action as legal or illegal. However, if it involves knowledge of game mechanics (specifically regarding action count), unless your character could be argued to have such knowledge due to metacognition (see Wilson, Wade; Diane Pie, Pinkamena), I submit that any resulting action be considered illegal by default.

As for consequences to breaking these rules, I second that there be a penalty system of some kind implemented, with a three-strike basis. I submit the first strike be a warning, the second strike being a forfeiture of the bout or match, and the final strike being a heavier penalty, such as stripping of a Beast, or banning from challenges for a set period of time, to be decided upon by the Council.

This is my stance as a member of the Council, and I invite everyone to comment upon it as they see fit.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 09:49:34 pm by Ethaniel »
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Timothy

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2017, 10:20:23 pm »

I myself have questioned the concept of retro-posting myself, and wondered just how the character Tomi is allowed to react in certain circumstances.

IE, Person A flicks their left hand into a seal, the uses Shunshin no Jutsu to appear behind Person B then throw a punch at their back.

If Person B has the reflexes, could they not only see the attack coming, but body flicker themself right after Person A uses Shunshin no Jutsu to appear where Person A originally was, ending with A trying to punch at thin air because Person B is no longer there?

My answer to these kinds of things is to allow for awareness, but not to react until after Person A appears behind Person B because it feels like a potential way for Person B to abuse the situation. Even if I'm playing the character of Person B and genuinely don't want Person A behind me in the Shower Room.
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Optimal Saiteki

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 01:59:23 am »

The issue isn't reacting to an action from the previous round, it's going back an reacting to stop something that happened several rounds ago.
In Tomi's example, I don't see that as retroposting. You're responding to something that just happened.
Unless your  character is prone to standing motionless for extended periods, one would assume they're always moving and reacting.

The issue, then, comes when you try and react to void something that already happened.
To me, finishing a post without responding to something means that that action is solid and cannot be changed by future posts.
So if A performs an action, no matter how minute, and B does nothing about it, that action cannot be reacted to later.
So if in two rounds that action causes something else to happen, B must react to THAT action, and not the initial one.

Metagaming is dumb, but much harder to track and prove.
So, I would say zero tolerance for retroposting (meaning going back more than the previous post to try and change something). So if you're determined to be retroposting, you repost. If you used your repost, then that action is simply stricken.
Three strikes for proven metagaming seems fair.
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Sabumaru

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2017, 03:12:28 am »

Finishing a post without responding to something means that that action is solid and cannot be changed by future posts.

That action cannot be reacted to later.

So if in two rounds that action causes something else to happen, B must react to THAT action, and not the initial one.

Zero tolerance for retroposting

Three strikes for proven metagaming seems fair.

Thanks Saiteki for writing this out so I didn't have to.

Go team.
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Optimal Saiteki

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2017, 03:36:30 am »

Thank you for making my post so much more colorful. :D
Wanna follow me around and do that all the time?
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Old Man Xia

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2017, 05:16:13 am »

Finishing a post without responding to something means that that action is solid and cannot be changed by future posts.

That action cannot be reacted to later.

So if in two rounds that action causes something else to happen, B must react to THAT action, and not the initial one.

Zero tolerance for retroposting

Three strikes for proven metagaming seems fair.

Thanks Saiteki for writing this out so I didn't have to.

Go team.


Yay team!
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Vail

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2017, 04:34:06 pm »

Agreed
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Jestar

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2017, 06:43:38 pm »

Who exactly is doling out the punishments for these, offenses? And shouldnt there be a guidebook on how to RP? There is already a starter's guide on getting into biju affairs from a desk jockey PoV, but no guide to how to RP around here. Not being able to react against react against react against react against react against react against react doesn't seem fair if the characters have the reflexes to do it.

Person A makes handsigns and uses fireball jutsu. Person B uses shunshin to, using a katana, slash at Person A in the middle of their handsigns, using sharingan to monitor movements and adjust as needed to slash. Person A jumps backwards and exhales the ball of fire in an attempt to get B away. Person B does a sidestep-jump-juke thing and as a result finishes slashing action on Person A? Person A, when fireball is dodged, activates byakugan and withdraws their own katana to meet Person B's slash headon? Person B though still is adjusting for movement and goes around the katana?

At what point does Person A have to take the slash, or at what point is B forced to not "continue" a previous action? What about actions that supposedly "account for anything to come" and thus lead into the next post as something already stated to be prepared for?
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Old Man Xia

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2017, 12:15:51 am »

Who exactly is doling out the punishments for these, offenses?

I don't think anyone is right now, but I would say whoever the judge is for that match can hash out the punishment.

And shouldnt there be a guidebook on how to RP?

Easier said than done really because it's better to train someone than give them a handbook and say "Here you go! Now do something!"
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Sabumaru

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2017, 01:17:06 am »

Thank you for making my post so much more colorful.
Wanna follow me around and do that all the time?
No.



Who exactly is doling out the punishments for these, offenses?
Me.
Or the council/the judge of that match.



And shouldnt there be a guidebook on how to RP? There is already a starter's guide on getting into biju affairs from a desk jockey PoV, but no guide to how to RP around here.
Nobody here is obligated to teach anyone how to RP, just like nobody here should be limiting how people RP. If you show up and don't know how to RP (like I did several years ago) then you will probably learn by watching, and making mistakes which people will call you on. (Trust me on that)



Not being able to react against react against react against react against react against react against react doesn't seem fair if the characters have the reflexes to do it.
What?

Person A makes handsigns and uses fireball jutsu. Person B uses shunshin to, using a katana, slash at Person A in the middle of their handsigns, using sharingan to monitor movements and adjust as needed to slash. Person A jumps backwards and exhales the ball of fire in an attempt to get B away. Person B does a sidestep-jump-juke thing and as a result finishes slashing action on Person A? Person A, when fireball is dodged, activates byakugan and withdraws their own katana to meet Person B's slash headon? Person B though still is adjusting for movement and goes around the katana?

At what point does Person A have to take the slash, or at what point is B forced to not "continue" a previous action? What about actions that supposedly "account for anything to come" and thus lead into the next post as something already stated to be prepared for?
As far as I understand you are basically asking when the cutoff of retroposting begins, or something like that. Let's ask Potter Stewart.
"Stewart wrote in his short concurrence that [obscenity] was hard to define, but that "I know it when I see it.""





And just so we're all clear:
The phrase "I know it when I see it" is a colloquial expression by which a speaker attempts to categorize an observable fact or event, although the category is subjective or lacks clearly defined parameters.

Edit: formatting and a word
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 01:24:42 am by Sabumaru »
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Jestar

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2017, 04:42:44 am »


Easier said than done really because it's better to train someone than give them a handbook and say "Here you go! Now do something!"

Jay has had training and so has Rusaku, but if the training is different then there is going to be problems on one end or the other.

Look at the IC rules. Character-Controlling explains that:

Any strategy, action, or method used In Context (IC, RP, etc.) which both controls another players' character without their permission and transcends the prescribed ruleset that players determine the fate of their own characters based upon the roleplay that the character is in or agreed upon secondary elements such as judge and GM decisions..

A judge does not have to do a whole lot of guessing on character control. Shishui power use on someone without consent is character controlling even if it is a canon move unless a judge says otherwise. But God-Mode?

Any strategy, action, or method used In Context (IC, RP, etc.) which goes beyond the agreed upon limits or environment set by the narutoverse inspired shinobilegends world. This includes breaking SL RP rules.

There is no reference list for what all would be godmodding, no reference sheet at all. I mean, there are moon people and earth core people and T-rex people and dragon people, Madara was a literal god right before Zetzu wrecked him, the issue aint that people dont know what godmodding is to them, its that they dont agree on whats godmodding.

Let's say this fight took place IC, right? Rusaku at some points felt that Jay's powers were godmode. Jay disagrees. Since they agreed to Jay's preferences that his powers are legit and stuff, then it is not godmodding by the IC rules for him his character to do anything that his reference pages says he can do (and more, but Im not the lawyer).

Now you get to RP rules and that stuff is enforced by mob rule only. Break it and get rejected kind of thing. Like, an old guy from long ago Kyutu could time travel, and so can some Pyro prinny guy, where would time travel even fit in the godmode category of regular RP rules? I am guessing it would be a no-go, but I bet they RP'd with it for awhile with some people.

This is getting long. Long story short, what makes responding to an action started 4 turns ago god-mode? It sure aint written anywhere that that is godmode or retro or whatever. When you got people responding to picoseconds of time intervals like its a race to instantaneous, how can anybody enforce unwritten guidelines with the thought that everybody was trained the same? Senpai taught me to cite jutsu I use, even custom ones, but not everybody does that. Senpai taught me everybody gets 3 actions of any kind, but somebody else makes specific a defense attack and supplement. I hope no Council starts enforcing rules that can literally be made up on the spot with claims to it being universal. If it were universal why aint everybody trained that way? If there are going to be punishments for breaking common RP rules can they at least be written down so a judge or player can point and say hey, thats the rule you broke and this is how you broke it.
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Eric

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2017, 06:03:15 am »

In light of my more recent fight, I have come to understand that there is no established consequence for breaking some of the more...overlooked guidelines of SL such as Retroposting and Metagaming. This is something I would like to have addressed for future reference when observing not only a Biju fight, but perhaps even in traditional IC RP.  I realize that there is a footnote saying these things are forbidden in the biju rules, but we should probably solidify what it means to break them...


The judge usually would make a ruling declaring the move invalid, and a repost may be required. If there is a repost limit, then functionally, that serves to keep people from carelessly posting and having to repost over and over again without regard for how much time is eaten up with each correction.

In light of my more recent fight, I have come to understand that there is no established consequence for breaking some of the more...overlooked guidelines of SL such as Retroposting and Metagaming. This is something I would like to have addressed for future reference when observing not only a Biju fight, but perhaps even in traditional IC RP.  I realize that there is a footnote saying these things are forbidden in the biju rules, but we should probably solidify what it means to break them.


... I suggest putting a set limit on how far back a person can react. Just for example lets say...3 full actions. If it is within the realm of possibility, you can react to upwards of three action prior to your current round. So the beginning of your opponent's most recent set of actions against you. You can obviously still interrupt your opponent within these parameters, but you also can't go back 2 rounds and reto-fix a mistake you made...

My suggestion is a ď3 strikes and youíre outĒ kind of clause...


... In the case of retro-posting, I would propose that so long as your opponent isn't rushing (which is a whole different can of worms, and a debate for another time), you should be reacting to actions as they come, point blank. For example, if your opponent uses a technique, such as a cloning jutsu, and can reasonably follow it up with another action before your character could realistically react to the first, I submit that you only be allowed to react to the second action. However, if a judge rules that an action is not viable, at any point, I also submit that the following actions become null, and the fight continue from the last legal action. In the event that this would be a large setback (IE erasing a long string of rounds and possibly compromising the entire match), I submit that the ruling be brought before the Council for judgment. That being said, if you feel an action should be ruled legal or illegal by a judge, you should bring it up as soon as possible, and not wait until such a point that it requires a rollback...

As for consequences to breaking these rules, I second that there be a penalty system of some kind implemented, with a three-strike basis. I submit the first strike be a warning, the second strike being a forfeiture of the bout or match, and the final strike being a heavier penalty, such as stripping of a Beast, or banning from challenges for a set period of time, to be decided upon by the Council...



The issue, then, comes when you try and react to void something that already happened.
To me, finishing a post without responding to something means that that action is solid and cannot be changed by future posts.
So if A performs an action, no matter how minute, and B does nothing about it, that action cannot be reacted to later.
So if in two rounds that action causes something else to happen, B must react to THAT action, and not the initial one...


While I do like the suggestions for limitations on, well, the infinite response loop, I have to object to the 3 strikes initiative based on its premise. If during a zone fight with a judge present one of the players retros or metas and the judge rules it as such and mandates a repost, then what is the problem here? Yes, the number of reposts can get pretty long, which is why some people limit the number of reposts that can be had. But if in the repost the same mistake is made again, then again, in alot of preferences, that would be grounds for an automatic auto-hit or even removal from the biju match.

What the final judge rules, rules. I do not see the reason for a formal "3 strike" system in an OOC fight over general zoning rules. There is a judge for the match who can rule autohit as a result of not responding properly as long as there is no agreed upon term stating that that is not something a judge can do. At best the player can get a new judge and then that is it for an OOC fight; only in an IC Hunt can a judge's decision be appealed to the Biju Council.

As far as enforcement goes, if the Council starts enforcing and punishing players for breaking zoning rules in OOC biju matches (heck even IC Hunt biju matches) then we kind of start becoming judges. I mean, that is the whole point of having a judge for a match that does not involve the real storylines of either character. To enforce zoning rules or, as some have put it, guidelines, which is against the biju rules for the Council to do.

... And shouldnt there be a guidebook on how to RP...

http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8356.msg219572.html#msg219572

http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8272.msg218625.html#msg218625

http://wiki.shinobilegends.com/index.php/How_to_Zone_Fight

In varying degrees it has been done/attempted/talked about. Neji's "How to Zone Fight" is the quintessential one since basically all zoning rules can derive down to these few sentences here from there:

Quote
...There are no rules on how you fight (except the rules that apply to the game)...

Quote
[Godmodding] is completely permitted, however you should know that most people won't want to fight you if you fight like that. Most prefer that you be fair and don't god-mode.

Quote
The best suggestion is: "Use what you think is fair for [your] level."

Find me one guideline for zoning that we have that does not in some shape or form follow these three basic principles: Nothing is true till your partners also say its true, everything that does not violate the game rules is permitted, and that people are not obligated to play with someone they think is playing unfair.

1) Community decisions, written down or not, run the day. I can claim that my character revived Rares Uchiha and have him ride a sage mode transformed Eric into Kirigakure to preach the One True Faith of Bijuuism, but if nobody else takes it as happening, my character might as well not exist in that capacity.

2) Over the entire course of this site, from vampires to zombies to dragons to furries to, well, alot of stuff, the only stuff that Neji and his crew overtly worked to shut down was stuff that violated the game rules. Other than that, people are limited in what they can do only by 1 and 3, which in turn are meaningless without 2 being a thing.

3) Void, bans on stuff like OP jutsu, special rules for jutsu, ignoring posts, etc. This in particular takes a hit with things like biju, but overall players have alot of say in what kind of RP their characters are involved in.

The IC rules were set up in such a fashion as to turn a Biju Hunt into a RPG-like setting, but it requires alot of preparation and so far has not been tested under the rigors of actual RP. It is open ended for the very reason that being too restrictive in everything would have neither gotten the votes to get in (I imagine) or would have had to be changed everytime a SL guideline changed.
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Timothy

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2017, 07:02:05 am »

I suppose beforehand, with owner and challenger, one could agree to a certain judge to set specific rules like if 'I see you retroposting 3 times in a row and I feel like you're not going to recover, you'll be penalized somehow'. Also, there'd have to be something where the person getting the retro post penalty couldn't cop out and demand a new judge, provided both the judge and the opponent can provide proof said person agreed to such willingly, and in full knowledge of the consequences.

With tailed beast matches people seem to get carried away on how to DBZ take down their target in the biggest bang possible with numerous stacks of super powers. People can get bored real fast, especially when matches move super slow, and the material used by their opponent is written in a fashion of 'Oh, so you're a super human demi god, please do tell me more."

So with stacking offenses, mistakes, and how long a singe post can take to be put up,  I can see the value of wanting to 'just get it over with'. Thus the answer would be to just ask the judge openly 'Hey, if so and so does a move you see as modding, slap a severe penalty on them the next time they do it.' As for how 'open' the asking would have to be, dunno.
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Optimal Saiteki

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Re: Established Consequence
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2017, 03:37:34 pm »

Wait, so are we talking about god-moding now? I thought this was retroposting and meta gaming?
Though it sounds like the general feeling is "work this sh$# out with your opponent and judges before the match. The council exists to rule on bijuu matters as a whole and not individual matches, and therefore it falls to those involved to be self-governing, more or less. So long as the set perimeters of the fight are within the general rules, those with a stake in them are to make sure their own rules are followed."

I'm paraphrasing. I could be completely wrong.
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