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Author Topic: Memories  (Read 1078 times)

Rusaku

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Memories
« on: September 13, 2017, 02:51:22 am »

Seeing as the council created the rules regarding the tailed beasts, I had a question that perhaps you all could shed some light on. Now, I don't believe that we ever talked about this before, and if we have please let me know where I can read up on it, but have we ever discussed the topic of a tailed beasts memory and it's releation to former hosts?

For example, seeing as Rusaku had mastered the 7 tails in the past, and spent a lot of time with it in doing so, would the current host be able to extrapolate vital information from the beast regarding me and my relationship with it? With Kurama having been hosted by several people in the past, could I get information on them now that I am the host?

The only example I can find of someone addressing this is in the fight where Kamui was GMing as the 8 tails when Yujo was attempting to capture it. He made mention that the beast had no recollection of Yujo, thus the fight would commence as if they had never shared a vessel. Though, as far as I am aware, that was only included because Yujo needed to fight and win the beast, and it wouldn't be fair for Gyuki to just climb on inside because Yujo mastered him previously.

Personally, I'm fine with the beasts retaining the information on previous hosts, because that would maintain a continuity, but I'm also fine with them losing memory, because then it could lead to people taking advantage of the opportunity that provides.   
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Yomi

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Re: Memories
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 03:48:03 am »

I said before that I wouldn't poke my nose into bijuu business, but this caught my attention and I might as well throw in an idea.

Rusaku raised some points on the pros and cons of the beasts retaining memories of their previous hosts, though the cons kinda give the current host a free ticket to know vital stuff about a previous host. Say that previous host X is wanted criminal in all shinobi villages, so the current host can just blab that 'oh, host X used to be at {this place} and can do {these stuff} because their former beast told me'. That is, in a way, metagaming and that's a no-no around here.

I suggest that the beasts do retain memories of their previous host, but just their identities, not abilities or affiliations and such. A name and probably how they treated/interacted with their bijuu would be reasonable, yes? Again, this is just a suggestion. *bows out*
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 03:56:08 am by Yomi »
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Rusaku

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Re: Memories
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 04:02:37 am »

I said before that I wouldn't poke my nose into bijuu business, but this kind of caught my attention and I might as well throw in an idea.

Rusaku raised some points on the pros and cons of the beasts retaining memories of their previous hosts, though the cons kinda give the current host a free ticket to know vital stuff about a previous host. Say that previous host X is wanted criminal in all shinobi villages, so the current host can just blab that 'oh, host X used to be at {this place} and can do {these stuff} because their former beast told me'. That is already metagaming in a way and that's a no-no around here.

I suggest that the beasts do retain memories of their previous host, but just their identities, not abilities or affiliations and such. A name and probably how they treated/interacted with their bijuu would be reasonable, yes? Again, this is just a suggestion. *bows out*

For the sake of being the devil's advocate, I would purpose that it isn't meta gaming. If a person follows the necessary channels and gains information on a person it's not metagaming to then use that information to your advantage. So why would it then become metagaming to ascertain the knowledge that a tailed beast would in fact have on any particular individual and use it to further your own goals? Is it meta gaming because it's easier than most other options?

I would simply label it as unfair, opposed to Metagaming. Though I am not against your suggestion of limiting the information a beast would have. My counter offer might be...Name and affiliation, but no details on powers and abilities or well kept secrets like a hideout or scheme in the works. Learning a name and affiliation would give people a decent lead as to where this individual might frequent, which would allow for the possibility of an IC hunt (Not necessarily a Biju hunt). Just having the village that they were affiliated with while being the beast's host would not immediately oust you. Said hunter would still need to go there and try and handle the situation from that point forward, assuming you're even in that village anymore. The information could be dated after all.       
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 04:03:12 am by Rusaku »
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Yomi

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Re: Memories
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2017, 04:25:24 am »

For the sake of being the devil's advocate, I would purpose that it isn't meta gaming. If a person follows the necessary channels and gains information on a person it's not metagaming to then use that information to your advantage. So why would it then become metagaming to ascertain the knowledge that a tailed beast would in fact have on any particular individual and use it to further your own goals? Is it meta gaming because it's easier than most other options?

I would simply label it as unfair, opposed to Metagaming. Though I am not against your suggestion of limiting the information a beast would have. My counter offer might be...Name and affiliation, but no details on powers and abilities or well kept secrets like a hideout or scheme in the works. Learning a name and affiliation would give people a decent lead as to where this individual might frequent, which would allow for the possibility of an IC hunt (Not necessarily a Biju hunt). Just having the village that they were affiliated with while being the beast's host would not immediately oust you. Said hunter would still need to go there and try and handle the situation from that point forward, assuming you're even in that village anymore. The information could be dated after all.     

Okay, maybe I used the term wrong, but it's more of an IC level with regards to actual roleplaying on the site. Let's admit, most of the bijuu are won and claimed OOCly here. So how exactly would it fit in the RP occurring on site? I may be overthinking about the part of the beasts being injected into all things IC, but again, what's pushing the limit when it comes to getting in-character information? What is fair and unfair?

Name and affiliation is good enough. I dunno how the current hosts will use any of this info about the previous vessels, unless the previous guy/s owes them money or something, but I guess it will suffice.
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Rusaku

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Re: Memories
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 04:39:49 am »

For the sake of being the devil's advocate, I would purpose that it isn't meta gaming. If a person follows the necessary channels and gains information on a person it's not metagaming to then use that information to your advantage. So why would it then become metagaming to ascertain the knowledge that a tailed beast would in fact have on any particular individual and use it to further your own goals? Is it meta gaming because it's easier than most other options?

I would simply label it as unfair, opposed to Metagaming. Though I am not against your suggestion of limiting the information a beast would have. My counter offer might be...Name and affiliation, but no details on powers and abilities or well kept secrets like a hideout or scheme in the works. Learning a name and affiliation would give people a decent lead as to where this individual might frequent, which would allow for the possibility of an IC hunt (Not necessarily a Biju hunt). Just having the village that they were affiliated with while being the beast's host would not immediately oust you. Said hunter would still need to go there and try and handle the situation from that point forward, assuming you're even in that village anymore. The information could be dated after all.     

Okay, maybe I used the term wrong, but it's more of an IC level with regards to actual roleplaying on the site. Let's admit, most of the bijuu are won and claimed OOCly here. So how exactly would it fit in the RP occurring on site? I may be overthinking about the part of the beasts being injected into all things IC, but again, what's pushing the limit when it comes to getting in-character information? What is fair and unfair?

Name and affiliation is good enough. I dunno how the current hosts will use any of this info about the previous vessels, unless the previous guy/s owes them money or something, but I guess it will suffice.

I couldn't tell you what the current host list would gain from this, but maybe someone else will come along and beat me for the nine, and decide that they wanted to get me IC as well, thus using the information to at least start their vendetta. It's all hypothetical, but it's better to iron out details like this before a problem arises, opposed to waiting for someone to take advantage of the fact that we have not discussed this topic and suddenly learn every technique that a preveous host ever knew, because memory hax.
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Warren

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Re: Memories
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 04:48:58 am »

Last I heard the whole 'knew all techniques etc of prior host' has been done already, but I'm not gonna name names.

A beast can't know something it never learned, and you deciding it learned something of a prior host anyway is character control / metagaming. There's no point in convoluting it even further by trying to establish some kind of basic default stuff it'd know automatically by having been just hosted, that would make no sense.

If you want to learn something through one, ask the prior host what would the beast actually know of them, if anything. If they do know something, you have to actually make them tell you. If they don't, you're SoL.

If the prior host has left/quit/whatever, the beast would have just forgotten due to passage of time or whatever other reasons. They don't have perfect memories as seen with Gyuki.
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Rusaku

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Re: Memories
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 05:01:28 am »

Last I heard the whole 'knew all techniques etc of prior host' has been done already, but I'm not gonna name names.

A beast can't know something it never learned, and you deciding it learned something of a prior host anyway is character control / metagaming. There's no point in convoluting it even further by trying to establish some kind of basic default stuff it'd know automatically by having been just hosted, that would make no sense.

If you want to learn something through one, ask the prior host what would the beast actually know of them, if anything. If they do know something, you have to actually make them tell you. If they don't, you're SoL.

If the prior host has left/quit/whatever, the beast would have just forgotten due to passage of time or whatever other reasons. They don't have perfect memories as seen with Gyuki.

I would have to say I disagree with most of your logic here. Kurama was able to remember Hagoromo splitting the beasts from over a millennia ago, and the exact speech he was giving them during that time. If he can do that, He can remember details about his host from 3 years ago if he was asked. Its also been established that the tailed beast is able to view the life of it's host as if it were looking through their eyes, so it's entirely within the realm of possibility that if a host learned something during their time together, then that beast would be able to pass on the knowledge of how to perform said technique.

You're trying to trivialize something that could actually come up as an issue, which I don't understand. I know you had Shukakku for a very long time, so Kamui could just as easily extrapolate as much information he wants from the one tails with a simple Sharingan Genjutsu. Even if Shukaku couldn't remember every event perfectly, hypnosis can solve that problem without issue, so long as he witnessed it in some facet. If we were not trying to establish rules here, then he would legally have all that information and you would be the one SOL. Like I said, there is no harm in stopping an issue before it arises.
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Eric

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Re: Memories
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2017, 05:16:19 am »

Well, since we do not generally keep extensive track of who hosts what, it makes sense that the beasts would not either, from an OOC standpoint. Only for the sake of mastery is prior history a huge factor as far as the current rules go, and even then, as I said, there is not much of a concrete history of hosts that can be referenced in case the Council ever needed to make a decision there.

Just by default have the beasts not remember anything prior to the previous host at best or not at all at worse, unless these are memories regarding the current host/summoner is my thought.
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Warren

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Re: Memories
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2017, 05:22:17 am »

I don't feel like arguing over minute canon semantics, much less whether I know better than someone else what exactly I've been doing past couple of years IC -Bocchi-ball in particular tried that, often, and never got it right-, so I'ma just not debate that >_> our debates never go well anyway Rusaku.

Just make it either a name and general personality, or simply nothing, then.
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Yomi

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Re: Memories
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2017, 05:23:55 am »

Just make it either a name and general personality, or simply nothing, then.
This. +1
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Rusaku

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Re: Memories
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2017, 05:31:16 am »

Well, since we do not generally keep extensive track of who hosts what, it makes sense that the beasts would not either, from an OOC standpoint. Only for the sake of mastery is prior history a huge factor as far as the current rules go, and even then, as I said, there is not much of a concrete history of hosts that can be referenced in case the Council ever needed to make a decision there.

Just by default have the beasts not remember anything prior to the previous host at best or not at all at worse, unless these are memories regarding the current host/summoner is my thought.

But it makes no sense from a continuity standpoint, and contradicts the canon information we have. Kurama can recall his time with both Mito and Kushina. Why in SL would that fact removed entirely if not for one more reason to break immersion? Yomi and I discussed that perhaps a name and affiliation is fair considering there is little to gain from having just that information. You are still required to have the savvy to follow up on that for it to be worth anything.   

I don't feel like arguing over minute canon semantics, much less whether I know better than someone else what exactly I've been doing past couple of years IC -Bocchi-ball in particular tried that, often, and never got it right-, so I'ma just not debate that >_> our debates never go well anyway Rusaku.

Just make it either a name and general personality, or simply nothing, then.

I'm trying to stop people from being able to abuse the ambiguity of our rules and the canon traits the beasts have displayed. There really isn't anything to debate, other than if it should be allowed or not, honestly. As I said with Eric, my opinion is to limit any possible information gain to name and affiliation. If we so choose that Name and Personality is better suited, then I can live with that. I'm here to establish regulation, not make it easier for people to have our entire history after a week with a beast we had a a year ago. The issue is, I also want it to be a fair regulation. 
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Eric

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Re: Memories
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2017, 06:13:12 am »

Well, since we do not generally keep extensive track of who hosts what, it makes sense that the beasts would not either, from an OOC standpoint. Only for the sake of mastery is prior history a huge factor as far as the current rules go, and even then, as I said, there is not much of a concrete history of hosts that can be referenced in case the Council ever needed to make a decision there.

Just by default have the beasts not remember anything prior to the previous host at best or not at all at worse, unless these are memories regarding the current host/summoner is my thought.

But it makes no sense from a continuity standpoint, and contradicts the canon information we have. Kurama can recall his time with both Mito and Kushina. Why in SL would that fact removed entirely if not for one more reason to break immersion? Yomi and I discussed that perhaps a name and affiliation is fair considering there is little to gain from having just that information. You are still required to have the savvy to follow up on that for it to be worth anything...   


I am not really concerned with canon here. Few biju rules take canon into account. The accounting of who was a host is not kept up with in a formal setting, so if there is a ruling needing to be made about whether or not the beast would have intel on a previous host (name and affiliation by the proposal) that goes back farther than one or two hosts, the only proof that is likely to exist are the biju fight records in the arena. If the fight was an IC biju hunt then good luck for real proving that beyond a "he wrote she wrote" deal.

I stand by my suggestion. Affiliation can actually tell alot, especially if you want clues as to how to pursue a character. A full name would reveal lineage (IE, KG and secret techniques so that they can be studied up on ahead of time) and of itself can be highly valuable IC information. Personality, truthfully, is probably the lesser of the evils only because alot of characters have personalities that fit the situation, not the other way around.

Continuity for the beasts, in my opinion, would only be helpful if the history of the beasts also starts getting tracked or recorded. And I do not think there are any volunteers for that project.
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Dart Terumī

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Re: Memories
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2017, 06:33:12 am »

I believe that it would be a very bad idea for the bijū to have any recollection of its previous containers. It just spells for meta-gaming disaster, especially if the two competing souls do not like each other. It's better to just let them be blank slate each time they are sealed.

Like Eric pointed out, name and affliction can tell a lot about an individual and what could be expected of their abilities. I know for one, that I like to keep myself as quiet and private as possible. The world doesn't need to know what I can and cannot do, ICcly, until I choose to reveal my abilities.

It's just a cheap, easy way out to gain information without doing actual IC work.
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Yomi

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Re: Memories
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2017, 07:06:28 am »

Might be better if the previous hosts were referred to by the beasts as "some bloke" or "that chick".
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Timothy

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Re: Memories
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2017, 11:24:06 am »

I personally don't really have much beef beyond using a tailed beast to 'teach' the current user a past user's techniques or some sort.
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