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Author Topic: When Succ meets another Succ  (Read 392 times)

Rusaku

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When Succ meets another Succ
« on: April 03, 2018, 12:46:08 am »

This is a topic that probably should have happened a long time ago, but we lacked any cannon evidence to formulate a proper response anyway, So perhaps it’s only natural that this discussion were to happen now, only weeks after the Manga gave us the best possible example of this happening, and the results of such.

The particular event that I am referring to is when two chakra absorption techniques come into contact with one another.

In my opinion, this is something the community has tiptoed around for a long time, with how unsure people are of what exactly would happen when an event like this occured. In the past, I have generally requested that the two cancel one another out, that way we don’t have to go into very detailed longistics of technique mechanics. Obviously there was a degree of common sense when observing this; Like if a single droplet of Kirisame touched a preta path barrier, it wouldn’t result in cancellation, because Preta path was obviously far stronger than that one droplet.

Much to my surprise, in the most recent chapter of Boruto (chapter 21; page 39/40), my general assumption was confirmed when two techniques produced by the newly introduced ninja tool technology clashed, resulting in complete cancellation of both. This was a great leap in our understanding of technique mechanics, because the only previous example we could draw from was when Hashirama used Wood Dragon to bind Madara, and stop him from using preta path. The glaring issue with this was within the technique’s ability as a whole. The Wood Dragon jutsu has the preexisting feature of negating other chakra absorption techniques. This, in my opinion, is the only reason it was able to stop the preta path. Mind you, this is a feature that the Dragon already had, pre Rinnegan introduction, because Hashirama was using this technique well before Madara attained the Rinnegan, considering he didn’t unlock it until he was already dying of old age. I only mention that to crush the possible idea that Hashirama specifically made the wood dragon to counter that barrier, which may come up in later discussion. 

When taking this into consideration, I believe chapter 21 has provided the only viable example we have for this situation, which brings us to the question I’m about to propose:

Does the community agree with my thesis? That when two absorption techniques of similar power clash, they result in complete nullification of one another.

When discussing this with Kamui, he believes the chapter was not a solid enough example to assume this is what happens when all chakra absorption techniques come into contact, but I disagree. He made mention that it was likely an isolated incident, only occurring because the two techniques used were identical.

As a community, we have accepted more with less evidence. Such as the summation that Rinnegan was obtained because of the merging of Senju and Uchiha cells, which was debunked later, yet still applied within the mechanics of our game for ease of access. With the increased number of chakra eating abilities within SL, it only makes sense that we should use this prominent example as impromptu law to avoid conflict in the future. I assert that this is a fine outcome, and can be applied in multiple situations without any greif, only leaving the question of technique quality to be determined on a case by case basis.

I welcome someone to challenge this assertion.     
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Eric

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Re: When Succ meets another Succ
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2018, 05:27:55 am »

https://jaiminisbox.com/reader/read/boruto-naruto-next-generations/en/0/21/page/39

That and the next page are the moment I assume you are talking about.

Quote
The Wood Dragon jutsu has the preexisting feature of negating other chakra absorption techniques. This, in my opinion, is the only reason it was able to stop the preta path.

My opinion is different in this regard:

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_Release:_Wood_Dragon_Technique (the trivia section)
http://ww2.readnaruto.com/chapter/naruto-chapter-656/

If you scroll down to Hashirama's English dialogue, read from right to left order, he says:

Quote
That wood dragon will absorb chakra from you! Now your chakra-absorbing ninnjutsu are nullified and meaningless!

The wood dragon nullifies Madara's chakra absorption techniques because it absorbs chakra, not because it is some innate ability of the dragon's, at least according to Hashirama. This sticking point the wikia only added as trivia for the wood dragon and is not mentioned in the preta path article, despite that being one of the few times in the manga in which the preta path would have been bested.

Of course, it is entirely likely that this was used on Madara before he could activate Preta Path, but this is still a precedent of a chakra absorption jutsu being used to overpower and nullify the effects of the other.

Finally, my opinion regarding your Thesis:

Quote
That when two absorption techniques of similar power clash, they result in complete nullification of one another.

1) The Boruto manga had two of the exact same techniques with the same power against each other. Two chakra absorption techniques of equal power, just like two regular ninjutsus of the same strength as each other, cancel each other out. Therefore, unless "similar" is changed to "equal", as I see it, the thesis has no more supporting evidence now than it did when the dragon rolled up on Madara.

2) How are chakra absorption techniques ranked in terms of strength? Is it the power-ups behind them like most things? If that's the case might as well lump them in with every other jutsu scale.

3) Accepting this thesis would mean that barrier-wide and large area of effect chakra absorption techniques (Kirisame comes to mind here) theoretically can then be bypassed by using something akin to preta path or another chakra absorption barrier. It would reduce the utility of large scale chakra absorption barriers.
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Uchiha Madara

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Re: When Succ meets another Succ
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2018, 04:50:30 pm »

I think its reasonable to believe that chakra absorbing jutsu of equal caliber would nullify each other. Its like what was said either, it should be no different than when regular jutsu of equal power clash. However, with that being said I don't think this topic solves the real problem. Specifically, when clashed, which should win out Preta Path's Blocking Technique Absorption Seal or Wood Release? Can they be "powered up" like regular jutsu, or do we just go by generalizations?

For example, say Madara does have Blocking Technique Absorption Seal at the ready as Hashirama's Wood Release Dragon comes at him:

1. Who has the "stronger" absorption, or is it a stalemate?
2. If Naruto jumped in and gave Hashirama some Kurama chakra (non-senjutsu enhanced), would it boost the power of the absorption for the Dragon and would it matter against Blocking Technique Absorption Seal?
3. Do reserves matter at all in the equation?

IMO its difficult to give an absolute on because even with the most recent Boruto chapter, it doesn't solve these variables, just confirming that equal jutsu cancels out equal jutsu. I don't believe we've ever seen chakra absorption from different techniques duke it out. But I believe the series gives evidence in favor of Preta Path coming from a general standpoint.



It has been shown to completely nullify and absorb whatever it has come in contact with, while on the other hand, Wood Dragon has shown limits in its abilities. Namely, it has been countered or destroyed via chakra based weapons or jutsu, that would otherwise be absorbed by Blocking Technique Absorption Seal.







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Murciélago/Bryantheexiled

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Re: When Succ meets another Succ
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2018, 03:37:15 am »

I always assumed it came down to the basis and limits of the technique and the user, like how even though preta path can absorb chakra theirs a limit to how quickly it can drain it like when it got hit by Naruto's Rasen shuriken it took a while for it to completely absorb it. While Wood Dragon jutsu seems to on a large scale rapidly drain Biju chakra.

My Theory always was that should two same elements or chakra draining technique or chakra consuming jutsus clash it was always the more powerful one that was victorious  i assumed the reason why Madara couldn't use preta path was because of the large drain it was making on his chakra preventing him from in a way reversing the flow and allowing him to drain the chakra from wood style. RP wise in a previous battle between two different types of chakra eating/absorbing both mine and my opponent's chakra negated each other because even though they were slightly different they're overall makeup and use were around equal footing resulting in neither getting the upper hand over each other.

Running off of Eric's talk of chakra absorbing barrier,  I always assumed that one could easily just reverse the pull by using Petra Path, I didn't know there wasn't a rule already in place of it. I always assumed one could just pull one's chakra back from the air as it left or just corked it's direction and then drain the barrier of its own chakra rendering it moot, the same thing applying to Pain's Rain Jutsu on contact it would drain the chakra from the rain just returning it to water.

I apologize if I just retyped what a bunch of other people already said but I feel like only within certain conditions would abilities like chakra draining, absorption, and sensing ever really cancel each other out.

Chakra Draining- When one force meets one of equal pull = Negation of both parties.
One drains faster wood dragon > Preta Path

Chakra Absorption -  Limits of both chakra e.g their Adaptability, Toxicity, Denseness, and overall general potency determine which eats which. This also in a way branching off to how elements like fire and wind either conquer one another, boost each other or end up negating one another.

Chakra Sensing- The manner in which one uses chakra to extend one sensing I feel like truly changes how one could equally nullify it. If two beacons both release a pulse I assume on contact they would both ricochet and only show info up to that point.


Now On Madara's post
 2. If Naruto jumped in and gave Hashirama some Kurama chakra (non-senjutsu enhanced), would it boost the power of the absorption for the Dragon and would it matter against Blocking Technique Absorption Seal? I honestly don't think it would or could be enhanced, the jutsu was already launched, the chakra was already manipulated and used, the dragon in this scenario would already be receiving chakra from its target I don't think a jutsu could simultaneously pull in and push out huge amounts of chakra like that at once.

3. Do reserves matter at all in the equation? I feel as if reserves do matter in a clash for example if you and I both held a rope and pulled on it with equal force the person to get the rope or chakra would be the person to outlast the other in stamina or in this case chakra to continue using said technique. Now, this in relevance to madara and hasirama is tricky because I don't know whether Preta is or isn't activated by chakra then one could just keep draining chakra or reversing the flow of chakra pull until one of two things I imagine would happen.

 A. The wood dragon consumption of chakra is more than what it's absorbing (because of using Preta's ability to at least, in theory, slow down the draining of chakra by fighting against the flow) and thus starts to drain Hashirama's reserves until he no longer has the reserves to continue it.

B.  Preta Path requires a jump start of chakra that it can't achieve because of the wood dragon draining Madra of chakra in such a huge manner, that the technique would eventually drain him dry and then end or last indefinitely because of the Edo Tensei non-ending chakra being enough to give shape to dragon even beyond what's it's consuming to stay active.

Can they be "powered up" like regular jutsu, or do we just go by generalizations?
I feel like they shouldn't be able to be powered up because of the delicate nature of what your doing, I mean you're essentially taking one's chakra and turning into your own.  I feel like it would come down to the technique and the ability you are using for example that one guy Sasuke fought in the chunnin prelims imagine that guy absorbing say biju or curse mark chakra,stuff that isn't meant for human in normal situations he would have died instantly while we have seen Preta take bijuu chakra and break it down into safe stuff Sasuke can use.

So Yes on power up but a big thumbs down on doing so, I feel like people would start to argue about argumentations like sage mode, etc.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 03:43:16 am by Murciélago/Bryantheexiled »
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Timothy

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Re: When Succ meets another Succ
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2018, 10:25:39 pm »

I'm kinda tempted to just make Tomi's chakra absorption seals weaker than say your standard 'omm nom nom' techs. That way there isn't arguing over who's stronger than who in a direct tug of war scenario.
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