Shinobi Legends Forum
Roleplay => Village Square => Topic started by: Rusaku on October 29, 2016, 11:56:07 PM
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So, the topic is going to be pretty self explanatory. I'm not calling out Athos, because there wasn't a rule or anything to suggest that this could not be done, but after some examination of other fights where this has happened, and the implications this loop hole could have, I would like to see how the community feels about "voiding" this tactic and making it an illegal move from this point forward. (The ruling here obviously having no bearing on our match.)
My reasons for wanting this removed are obvious. 8th gate is the epitome of the strength any one individual can reach, far exceeding that of the Ten tails Jink if applied properly. The drawback for using this power is that one looses their life after it's use. Now, using techniques that have been explicitly stated to circumvent this drawback are already voided amidst the community. I am of course referring too the body revival technique. I don't see how it's fair that all a person has to do is activate Izanagi, use 8th gate, then from that point forward have a free 5 (or however many) turns of immeasurable power, only to fade away and be perfectly fine in the next round. Minus an eye of course. Though if they wanted, they could rely on sensory techniques and just use another eye to go into 8th gate again. God forbid there is someone with Danzo modifications and can just spam it over. and over. and over again until they are left with only their own eyes, then spam it two more times if the opponent isn't dead yet.
It shouldn't be difficult to see the issue with this tactic. There are always going to be methods of avoiding 8th gate, yes, but just because it can be countered does not mean that it should just be left alone for people to abuse. In an OOC fight, there is no consequence for spamming this tactic in every single fight the person sets foot in. Literally none.
My suggestion, if not outright voiding it? Do not allow this in OOC fights.
Any input on the subject is welcome.
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I thought any loophole to avoid dying from the 8th gate was void. Might just be me though.
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I am more than okay with voiding this tactic overall, despite having used it myself. It is an unfair loophole, not much one can say against that, so I think voiding it is fine.
And Shadow, there have only been specific voids when it comes to surviving the Eighth Gate, the biggest one being the Body Revival technique.
No no voids Izanagi, though, just Izanami(Or whatever that complicated, BS one is).
But no, even I agree that it is a tactic that should be void.
Though while this topic is up, I do have to bring up something as well; what about the Eighth Gate and Edo Tensei Zombies? There is also nothing stopping someone from summoning a zombie, having him completely wreck shit in Eighth Gate, then tagging him out for another zombie or whatever the case may end up being.
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"Complete Annihilation" (5 turn regeneration period & forced immobilization)
Complete obliteration a.k.a dust release, burnt to ashes, ripped/blown apart, etc.
That is what is keeping people from doing it.
Only 1 ET zombie can be summoned per Jinchūriki challenge.
And that.
Pretty much solves your issues :) 5 rounds in any fight is a looooong time, also there are like 3 or 4 users of Edo.
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As Hitl-I mean Yujo said, an Edo zombie would still be held to the regeneration clause, and thus forced to be immobile for 5 turns after the 8th gate. So anyone who survives long enough for that period to start, basically wins. Unless they intentionally allow it to reform.
But yeah Shadow there has never been a topic, as far as I am aware of, that has mentioned literally anything about 8th gate and it's relation to Izanagi. If you had gone into a fight and this happened to you, but you expected it to be void already, you probably would have lost that ruling and had to face the consequences. So here we are trying to stop that.
So, leave this open for a few days and see what else is said? At this point I pretty much see this as an open and shut case.
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God forbid there is someone with Danzo modifications and can just spam it over. and over. and over again until they are left with only their own eyes, then spam it two more times if the opponent isn't dead yet.
Darn it, I wanted to do this :D
But yeah, I think it should be voided. I don't even think ET zombies should even have the ability to go into the Eighth Gate, or any gate, considering they're a mass of ash. But, that's just my opinion.
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God forbid there is someone with Danzo modifications and can just spam it over. and over. and over again until they are left with only their own eyes, then spam it two more times if the opponent isn't dead yet.
Darn it, I wanted to do this :D
But yeah, I think it should be voided. I don't even think ET zombies should even have the ability to go into the Eighth Gate, or any gate, considering they're a mass of ash. But, that's just my opinion.
I would say the same, but the Raikage was shown to use the lightning chakra mode, which stimulates the nervous system. A thing one would assume they wouldn't have if they were ash and don't feel pain.
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I would say the same, but the Raikage was shown to use the lightning chakra mode, which stimulates the nervous system. A thing one would assume they wouldn't have if they were ash and don't feel pain.
Just because it makes sense to us, doesn't mean it applies to Naruto :) Remember, this is a fictional world.
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I say void it.
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It was a good tactic to utilize the two in conjunction.
Just because you can't find a way to counter a tactic doesn't mean it should be outright voided.
I, personally, will not be voiding such a strategic and well planned tactic should any of my characters come across it.
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... No no voids Izanagi, though, just Izanami(Or whatever that complicated, BS one is)...
Wait, What the Fox? Are you saying that the ONLY counter to this tactic is generally voided? People seriously accept literal god-mode but not its counter?
I say ban Izanagi and get it over with. 8 gates aint the only suicide technique it could allow you to live through.
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... No no voids Izanagi, though, just Izanami(Or whatever that complicated, BS one is)...
Wait, What the Fox? Are you saying that the ONLY counter to this tactic is generally voided? People seriously accept literal god-mode but not its counter?
I say ban Izanagi and get it over with. 8 gates aint the only suicide technique it could allow you to live through.
I think they voided that move because it was so incredibly difficult to properly apply in the heat of battle. Camel tried to do it against bocc and it just kinda flopped. If I am remembering correctly. So people just kinda voided it from there based on that.
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... No no voids Izanagi, though, just Izanami(Or whatever that complicated, BS one is)...
Wait, What the Fox? Are you saying that the ONLY counter to this tactic is generally voided? People seriously accept literal god-mode but not its counter?
I say ban Izanagi and get it over with. 8 gates aint the only suicide technique it could allow you to live through.
I think they voided that move because it was so incredibly difficult to properly apply in the heat of battle. Camel tried to do it against bocc and it just kinda flopped. If I am remembering correctly. So people just kinda voided it from there based on that.
I believe, if the fight was long enough, using Izanami would be rather useful to apply if it was applied at the best time. Though, with most fights aiming to end after two-three posts, the concept of the technique can't really be applied since I believe it would at least take about five-six turns to use for this sole goal. Is it not simply a sensory overload into a targets brain and simply leading them to believe they were in an infinite loop like groundhog's day. That could be done with regular Genjutsu with complex layers on top of each other.
With this the target would only be able to Izanagi themselves about twice before succumbing to the technique. At least, that's how I understood it when it was revealed. I haven't read up on it in quite a while. In either case, both of these should be banned if its OOC cause it can be exploited. IC, the drawback would be all the more stressing and the user wouldn't be pressed to use it in every little fight... the same should be said for opening the eighth gate in OOC and any other suicide technique. If you use it, you should suffer the consequences.
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... No no voids Izanagi, though, just Izanami(Or whatever that complicated, BS one is)...
Wait, What the Fox? Are you saying that the ONLY counter to this tactic is generally voided? People seriously accept literal god-mode but not its counter?
I say ban Izanagi and get it over with. 8 gates aint the only suicide technique it could allow you to live through.
I think they voided that move because it was so incredibly difficult to properly apply in the heat of battle. Camel tried to do it against bocc and it just kinda flopped. If I am remembering correctly. So people just kinda voided it from there based on that.
I believe, if the fight was long enough, using Izanami would be rather useful to apply if it was applied at the best time. Though, with most fights aiming to end after two-three posts, the concept of the technique can't really be applied since I believe it would at least take about five-six turns to use for this sole goal. Is it not simply a sensory overload into a targets brain and simply leading them to believe they were in an infinite loop like groundhog's day. That could be done with regular Genjutsu with complex layers on top of each other.
With this the target would only be able to Izanagi themselves about twice before succumbing to the technique. At least, that's how I understood it when it was revealed. I haven't read up on it in quite a while. In either case, both of these should be banned if its OOC cause it can be exploited. IC, the drawback would be all the more stressing and the user wouldn't be pressed to use it in every little fight... the same should be said for opening the eighth gate in OOC and any other suicide technique. If you use it, you should suffer the consequences.
Agreed. I have no problems with Izanagi, Izanami, or eight gates. But the latter shouldn't be used in ooc fights. It's not fair.
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I believe, if the fight was long enough, using Izanami would be rather useful to apply if it was applied at the best time. Though, with most fights aiming to end after two-three posts, the concept of the technique can't really be applied since I believe it would at least take about five-six turns to use for this sole goal...
I disagree. A loop can be as long as two minutes or as short as five seconds:
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Izanami
The user must then intentionally replicate the same sensation and in the same way, memorise that instant with their Sharingan (represented as: A'). Izanami overlaps and connects these two identical bodily sensations (A and A'), as well as the flow of time between them, creating an infinite loop of events that entraps the opponent's consciousness. The user can also use their Sharingan to remember multiple sensations, (represented as B, C and so forth) and those sensations will also be used when Izanami is activated.
To properly use Izanami, to my understanding, all the user has to do is survive roughly a turn or two of active combat against thier opponent, at the bare minimum. As you said, more turns and more sensations would lead to a longer loop, but time seems to progress differently in the Izanami than it does in the real world. Since Izanami does not require eye contact, the jutsu can be cast at an almost infinite range at almost any time after the visual recording begins, making it useful at the beginning of a the setup for a finishing move; if the target is an Uchiha and attempts to use Izanagi, then Izanami would be have to be used prior to the opponent's activation of Izanagi (so the turn of the finisher, where Izanami could hold their mind in a loop while the attack does them in).
The opponent might try to use Izanagi in the mind, but it's a bit late then. This is my understanding of how the jutsu works.
Interestingly, I cannot find a thread on the forum where we had an extensive conversation about just Izanami. Which is weird for a technique so commonly voided.
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I believe, if the fight was long enough, using Izanami would be rather useful to apply if it was applied at the best time. Though, with most fights aiming to end after two-three posts, the concept of the technique can't really be applied since I believe it would at least take about five-six turns to use for this sole goal...
I disagree. A loop can be as long as two minutes or as short as five seconds:
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Izanami
The user must then intentionally replicate the same sensation and in the same way, memorise that instant with their Sharingan (represented as: A'). Izanami overlaps and connects these two identical bodily sensations (A and A'), as well as the flow of time between them, creating an infinite loop of events that entraps the opponent's consciousness. The user can also use their Sharingan to remember multiple sensations, (represented as B, C and so forth) and those sensations will also be used when Izanami is activated.
To properly use Izanami, to my understanding, all the user has to do is survive roughly a turn or two of active combat against thier opponent, at the bare minimum. As you said, more turns and more sensations would lead to a longer loop, but time seems to progress differently in the Izanami than it does in the real world. Since Izanami does not require eye contact, the jutsu can be cast at an almost infinite range at almost any time after the visual recording begins, making it useful at the beginning of a the setup for a finishing move; if the target is an Uchiha and attempts to use Izanagi, then Izanami would be have to be used prior to the opponent's activation of Izanagi (so the turn of the finisher, where Izanami could hold their mind in a loop while the attack does them in).
The opponent might try to use Izanagi in the mind, but it's a bit late then. This is my understanding of how the jutsu works.
Interestingly, I cannot find a thread on the forum where we had an extensive conversation about just Izanami. Which is weird for a technique so commonly voided.
Yeah, but there's no real distinction of time passed in a fight, unless explicably stated by one of the fighters. In which it'll usually state as, 'This entire thing took only a second' or 'because of the instantaneous nature...' to state a few personal examples.
Unless the user walked into the fight with the intent of using Izanami since the beginning, which I don't see an IC reason of doing such. What with the loss of the eye scenario, using either so early in the fight is a gamble. Which is why the fight would have to be longer. The longer the fight, the more likely the Sharingan user is to being used to their opponent's fighting style or way of moving (whether it be physical or emotional) since they would need to copy one of those moments exactly.
Though, in the canon, I don't completely understand what the problem was concerning Izanagi. Much like it's counterpart, using the technique causes the eye to go blind. Abusing something like this, by creating a technique which can cause your own eye to go blind? That's dumb. I'd let them go blind, they only get two uses. If they want to go blind, that's on them. If they need to survive to gain the upper hand, that's just strategy.
Though the notion of transplanting the technique into their eye in the event of their death is an amazing form of strategy, especially if the opponent was forced to use a lot of their chakra to do so... yes, good idea indeed. >.>
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Though, in the canon, I don't completely understand what the problem was concerning Izanagi. Much like it's counterpart, using the technique causes the eye to go blind. Abusing something like this, by creating a technique which can cause your own eye to go blind? That's dumb. I'd let them go blind, they only get two uses. If they want to go blind, that's on them. If they need to survive to gain the upper hand, that's just strategy.
Though the notion of transplanting the technique into their eye in the event of their death is an amazing form of strategy, especially if the opponent was forced to use a lot of their chakra to do so... yes, good idea indeed. >.>
Blind until Six Paths Chakra hacks turn it un-blind and evolves it into a Rinnegan.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/681/15
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/606/13
Would this mean that Uchiha with the Six Paths Chakra would be immune to going blind?
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No, because progression to rinnegan merely remodels the eye to restore the lost sight, there is no 'chakra hax'. Even if one acknowledges izanagi and -nami still working on a rinnegan after that, it'd just go blind again after.
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I don't mind a combination of Izanagi and Eight Gates Released Formation, if the actions are performed correctly and are not messed up in any way. Why? Well, If you need both techniques in order to 'tank' me, then that means I was winning up to the point that this 'trump card' was thrown into the ring.
I always point out that the latter end ups cooking your body, chakra, organs and everything in between; in exchange for a transformation of incredible power. This means if you go EGRF then proceed to waste the turns for this power-up to end, before using Izanagi; it will be a no-go. I mean think about it, you can't waste an eye if it becoming cooked due to your own chakra being enhanced to the point that you'll become ash after the state is over. [Izanagi -> EGRF -> Turn count -> ?]
Camel tried to do it against bocc and it just kinda flopped. If I am remembering correctly. So people just kinda voided it from there based on that.
As for Izanami? Like Rusaku said, I tried to pull this move off and even had a discussion with the alleged person that I actually cast it it--there was nothing but doubt and giggles that I couldn't even attempt to do it in an IC fashion--which to me is all the motivation I need to pull this off. But I pulled it off in five turns and I was actually planning to kill Bocchiere off for good; the guy even admitted that this move caught him off-guard and basically 'good game. well played'
Stupidly instead of going through with the plan of villain killing another villain, I decided to waste a turn brooding with my character and kill him afterwards. This was my mistake, because you see this is SL. Izanami works differently here than it does in the actual series. So this is were the 'flop' came and it was made that all you had to was accept *who* you really are on the inside, thus ending the technique on you. But with an extra change in your character's personality due the conflicts in the time-loop.(think Kabuto here.)
Which is why some are reluctant to perform the technique, after seeing my grand display, lulz. But performing the technique was more of a 'challenge' to me and I can say that I managed to pull it off, but not contain the adversary within it long enough like Itachi did.
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Technically one could Izanagi or Transcription Seal: Izanagi their way out of death from anything. Even if your body is consumed and obliterated in explosions from six billion explosive tags, activating Izanagi erases any sort of death scenario. It's all based on the Creation of All Things Technique really. Though for not being the Hagoromo Otsutsuki himself, who possessed the Six Paths Sage Chakra, the cost for anybody else who uses it is a Sharingan. A filler part of the anime even shows a single Uchiha using it to resurrect himself and some of his nearby clan members in battle. Though that would be a highly debatable feat in itself.
No, because progression to rinnegan merely remodels the eye to restore the lost sight, there is no 'chakra hax'. Even if one acknowledges izanagi and -nami still working on a rinnegan after that, it'd just go blind again after.
[citation needed]
Special Uchiha chakra = Sharingan
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/619/17
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/619/18
Hagoromo/Six Paths Chakra = Rinnegan + eye restoration
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/681/15
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/671/6
Six Paths Chakra hacks effecting normal jutsu
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/674/13
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Technically one could Izanagi or Transcription Seal: Izanagi their way out of death from anything. Even if your body is consumed and obliterated in explosions from six billion explosive tags, activating Izanagi erases any sort of death scenario. It's all based on the Creation of All Things Technique really. Though for not being the Hagoromo Otsutsuki himself, who possessed the Six Paths Sage Chakra, the cost for anybody else who uses it is a Sharingan. A filler part of the anime even shows a single Uchiha using it to resurrect himself and some of his nearby clan members in battle. Though that would be a highly debatable feat in itself.
No, because progression to rinnegan merely remodels the eye to restore the lost sight, there is no 'chakra hax'. Even if one acknowledges izanagi and -nami still working on a rinnegan after that, it'd just go blind again after.
[citation needed]
Special Uchiha chakra = Sharingan
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/619/17
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/619/18
Hagoromo/Six Paths Chakra = Rinnegan + eye restoration
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/681/15
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/671/6
Six Paths Chakra hacks effecting normal jutsu
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/674/13
Yeah, I'm not sure if gaining the Rinnegan would unblind the Iza-techs. I know it does so for regular overuse of the Mangekyo. Though, I guess Kage could find this if I'm wrong about it.
P.S. Nobody told me Madara just snatched the sh*t out of Kakashi's eye! I was like, Got DAMN, that was intense as hell!
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@Jay Rinnegan does unblind an izanagi'd eye, as seen with Madara, because unlike sharingan which is an activated state the rinnegan is a base state of the eye, so once you achieve the evolution upon obtaining rikudou chakra the chakra will remodel even a izanagi/-nami -blinded eye into the rinnegan.
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@Jay Rinnegan does unblind an izanagi'd eye, as seen with Madara, because unlike sharingan which is an activated state the rinnegan is a base state of the eye, so once you achieve the evolution upon obtaining rikudou chakra the chakra will remodel even a izanagi/-nami -blinded eye into the rinnegan.
Well Madara could change state back and fourth, as seen here when he uses one of his clones to put A into a genjutsu with his Mangekyou Sharingan.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/8
This actually makes things even worse, since theoretically you could now just revert to your Mangekyou, use Izanagi, go blind, just revert back to Rinnegan to restore it, and then repeat. If anything, there could just be a cool-down on being able to use your Mangekyou and it's abilities after going blind in it from this process. Like maybe a week or a month.
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@Jay Rinnegan does unblind an izanagi'd eye, as seen with Madara, because unlike sharingan which is an activated state the rinnegan is a base state of the eye, so once you achieve the evolution upon obtaining rikudou chakra the chakra will remodel even a izanagi/-nami -blinded eye into the rinnegan.
Well Madara could change state back and fourth, as seen here when he uses one of his clones to put A into a genjutsu with his Mangekyou Sharingan.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/8
This actually makes things even worse, since theoretically you could now just revert to your Mangekyou, use Izanagi, go blind, just revert back to Rinnegan to restore it, and then repeat. If anything, there could just be a cool-down on being able to use your Mangekyou and it's abilities after going blind in it from this process. Like maybe a week or a month.
Or only be able to use Izanagi that one time only ever to balance the scales with that eye shifting.
If not, then at least a documented year's time must pass before being able to use it again.
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No, should just be if you izanagi then you say goodbye to that eye, regardless of whether its sharingan, rinnegan or you have chakra of the king of the universe, and evolution to rinnegan will only bring it back that one time when you initially gain it, iza again and the eyes gone for good.
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Is it possible to Izanagi blindness?
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Is it possible to Izanagi blindness?
(https://i.imgflip.com/1dqbzc.jpg)
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Is it possible to Izanagi blindness?
(https://i.imgflip.com/1dqbzc.jpg)
Applaud.