Shinobi Legends Forum
Roleplay => Village Square => Topic started by: Ѕhadow on July 24, 2015, 06:05:36 PM
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Once someone is inside a kamui realm can they escape?
This is meant to be a debate topic, as that stands, don't be an asshole if you can help it. Which you can help it.
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My theory is as follows:
There are 3 Different plains of existence, 3 different dimensions if you will.
Normal, our everyday dimension.
Kamui, pocket dimension created by Doujutsu.
FTG, pocket dimension created by 'Ninjutsu'
Now. In ANY circumstance where a person is trapped in Kamui dimension, and doesn't have access to Kamui/FTG themselves, they are screwed beyond belief.
But my understanding is that, since a user of FTG transcends the "Normal" dimension, into their "FTG" dimension briefly, and pops out at a designated location. I see FTG as a 'plausible' out for someone trapped inside of another users Kamui dimension, due to it carrying the same implications as when an FTG normally uses the technique to teleport.
But then that arises the argument of whether a Kamui dimension cuts off use of Chakra, or Jutsu, or any and all connection to the outside world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BumJgOkFJ7M
Look at around 11:36, you'll see gaara's sand lose shape as Sakura and Naruto enter the Kamui Dimension, which either means that gaara couldn't control it inside of the Kamui dimension, or simply saw it fit that he didn't need to carry them around anymore. Whatever is decided from that could be pivotal to the overall success or failure to the defense/plaintiff.
But to me, still there is question whether since it was Ninjutsu that gaara uses, is why his connection was cut off. Since Hiraishin is Space time, it could be different.
This is all speculation, and I will say it clearly, I do not know, because it has never been shown.
TL;DR: With FTG, probably.
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Me thinks garra could not control it because he was not in the kamui.
its silly to say that no one could escape, espesially ichirou considering he has
a few different ways to get out
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His sand went away cause it cut off his chakra connection to it.
As for FTG, impossible.
FTG allows you to teleport one dimension by creating a space-hole in said dimension.
Meaning using FTG in kamui to travel around kamui is fine and the same for traveling around the Earth. However teleporting from earth to kamui or vice versa isn't allowed.
It's a one dimension travel jutsu not multidimensional. Or no one with FTG would worry ever.
Also keep Ichirou and my battle out of this. This is strictly for debate on how to get out.
So if you want to suggest summoning jutsu to get our of kamui then do that, but keep it inside the jutsu summoning not our battle.
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This Is about that fight. Anyhoe I think FTG could get one out considering it is a space time jutsu. A reverse summon would get one out. A sealing tech would too
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Masane, please, you are cool, but you are also madly biased. That's dope and all that you defend your brother, but this topic transcends the fight, and needs positive, reinforced arguments, not, "This works because Ichirou has it."
Thank you.
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It works because logic not ichi. I tell him when I think he is wrong too, whatever
this is stupid and not my fight. I offered what I think would happen with ANYONE not just him. And yall act like im saying he is right cuz he my brother. It aint like tht
I think those ways could get him or ANYONE out.
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We're just asking you to stop naming people or events. That's all. ~
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So keeping the fight out of this
Gaara couldnt control his sand because he wasnt in the realm
Sakura however had to keep naruto alive. A physical impossibility with just hand pumps because she couldnt pump it fast enough, so i figure she was funneling medical chakra into his heart as well.
But this isnt really about chakra usage in the kamui, its about leaving to another dimension.
On the kamui page ot was stated that obito was capable of keeping people locked in genjutsus within his kamui, i feel as though if they couldnt use chakra that really wouldnt be necessary.
Now personally i believe that FTG could escape Kamui as well as any other space time ninjutsu that forced open a portal to a different dimension. However with FTG having to move to a predesignated marker i could see why it cant
Now we know that kamui can synchronize with other dimensions to make for f r e e passage between the dimensions. But i believe that if someone were to open a door to their dimension i.e kamui or like Sonbi's pocket dimension and just go to that dimension and not back out immediately or by their own means then it would be good to go.
There's nothing anywhere that says directly mentions the inability to use chakra in a kamui dimension to my knowledge, so i think itd be good to go.
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Yall getting off topic. Focus on what I said about escaping the kamui, thats it
-edited by Camelicious (Psssst. Strike one.)
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The realm of that user's Kamui can be escaped using FTG. Why wouldn't it be allowed since the technique states that you 'teleport' to whatever area is marked or linked with your chakras.
I mean as long as you did everything in order correctly and emoted the creation of the seal prior to being trapped within; this is not counting whatever actions you do afterwards.
Then again now that I think about it more, a user of FTG would be smart enough to *not* get themselves caught within the space-time technique. (Remember Minato?)
Also no more instigations, please. :evil:
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FTG can't escape it cause you'd need a link to the other seal. While in kamui ALL links are cut off to the outside world. You can't bypass that.
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Yall niggas getting off topic. Focus on what I said about escaping the kamui, thats it
Yo, I am not a stickler for use of the N-word. But your frivolous, and excessive use of it has become quite the headache, especially on these forums where it has NO place at all. I know Kamui said it, but he has to be nice about it, I don't. CUT THAT SHIT OUT.
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I I WAS yall tellin me how I feel about stuff....yall kill me with this stupid mess, I leve ito you and kage ichi
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Most of the things past chapter 600 was it? ARE VOIDED. We did that months ago. I'l have to find the topic, but yeah.
"Kamui allows the user to transfer targets to and from another dimension, from which they are unable to escape. "
It doesn't say they may be able to it only says they can't.
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FTG can't escape it cause you'd need a link to the other seal. While in kamui ALL links are cut off to the outside world. You can't bypass that.
If it's inescapable under certain circumstances then I'm inclined to believe you. Otherwise it's like I said, "Then again now that I think about it more, a user of FTG would be smart enough to *not* get themselves caught within the space-time technique. (Remember Minato?)"
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Theyre unable to escape physically, but space time ninjutsu
We have to look at thinga differently because a user of space time ninjutsu was never brought into akamui realm, excluding other users of kamui
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I would like to formally object to the use of the word niggas, or any racially biased derivative. Regardless of intent, I have seen this used quite frequently of late here on the forum and while I was willing to let it go in the Rap session board [due to that being poetic licence that is used frequently in rap, offensive as it is. It is often times part of the art form] here when it is name calling I am compelled to speak out. It is just simply not required. Thank you.
I have a question concerning the topic and am very interested to see how the discussions progresses.
I view FTG as ripping through space, not popping into another dimension, and am leaning toward Shadow's description where he limits it to one plane of existence. I can use it in this plane to get from spot to spot only in this plane, or in a Kamui dimension to only travel within that Kamui dimension. A directly to B.
While I see the Kamui ability as opening a window to another dimension that you can enter an inbetween place to travel through. A to B to C.
Additionally, I saw some speculation concerning these Kamui dimensions. Some say it all goes to one pocket world. Others say it is specific to each eye, where they all have their own dimension different from anyone else. Thoughts?
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I still believe that the kamui dimensions are specific to each pair of kamui eyes, and can only travel between other kamui dimensions freely when theyve been synchronized. But i believe they could travel to their own kamui dimension from within the other one just not back
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It's all a dimension for each user. Not all linked. As in Kakashi and Obito's case. Two eye from the same person; on dimension or Sasuke could've kamui'ed into their fight if all the dimensions were linked.
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Now here is another speculation.
Since FTG is not a doujutsu, the Uchiha ability providing the dimensional travel, what justification is there to permit it to be able to open the dimension to escape or to enter? One would think that since this is such a KG specific thing, while the FTG is not, that it would not have the capability to undo the Kamui.
Additionally, The reverse summons feels to me the same issue. Why would that permit you to undo this KG effect?
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FTG and summoning works in one dimension. That's how I see it. Not multi or cross dimensional. It's never been shown to be able to thus we go by what is shown. And what is shown is one dimensional travel.
Also Kamui eliminates you from Earth. You're no longer connected. It cuts off all traces. Why would you be able to FTG to a kunai outside of kamui when you're cut off from that kunai? Makes no sense.
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You might be able to Kamui yourself out of someone elses Kamui, maybe. I doubt you can use ftg though or Obito trying to grab and kamui minato would be useless.
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Let's be honest here. This is really about the fight.
Most of the things past chapter 600 was it? ARE VOIDED. We did that months ago. I'l have to find the topic, but yeah.
Except for anything relating to Kamui, apparently.
But let's hold-up here. We'll have to break down what Space–Time Ninjutsu is first.
By manipulating a specific point of space, the user can warp anything targeted into a dimensional void and teleport it to another location instantaneously. Minato Namikaze, Obito Uchiha, Sasuke Uchiha, Kakashi Hatake, Tobirama Senju and Kaguya Ōtsutsuki are skilled users of space–time ninjutsu.
All summoning-based techniques are space–time manipulation related, as they warp the targets through a dimensional void to the summoner's location.[1]
Space–Time Ninjutsu allows one to bypass any Barrier Ninjutsu, as barriers only extend over the dimension they are placed upon, which cannot prevent Space–Time Ninjutsu users from escaping to the dimensional void and then back outside of the barrier's confines.[2][3][4]
It appears that each specific space-time technique has its own unique dimensional void that other techniques cannot normally access.[5] However, a user can synchronise their respective dimension with the other one to gain access to it. To achieve this feat, however, requires much more chakra.[6]
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Space%E2%80%93Time_Ninjutsu
So basically you're creating a hole, called a dimensional void, in space-time that acts as a shortcut to get instantaneously from one place to another. The issue here that we're trying to pinpoint is cross-dimensional travel. But really, cross-dimensional travel is the BASIS of ALL Space–Time Ninjutsu if you're creating a dimensional void to slip though the ordinary confines of the space-time continuum. This is EXACTLY how Kamui works as well. Though you're actually able to stay in this dimensional void, instead of just slip through it. That's a big part of what makes Kamui so special, along with not needing seals or a summoning tattoo to perform.
Heck, to escape Kaguya's Dimension after Kaguya got sealed, who was the only one that could take people in and out at that time, Hagoromo and the past kages performed the Summoning Technique to bring Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, Sakura, Madara, Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu, Son Goku, Kokuo, Saiken, Chomei, Gyuki and Kurama. Granted it did take a bit of extra man-power to summon all nine Tailed Beasts. Even in the Gaiden, Sasuke mentions traveling back and forth between Kaguya's Dimension and the regular world.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-691-page-16.html
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-709-page-19.html
But if we're voiding anything not relating to Kamui past chapter 600, then most of this info is useless. But even if we're going with that silly notion, there's also this info on how Hiraishin works.
To activate this technique, the user places a special seal or "technique formula" (術式, jutsu-shiki) to mark an intended destination. After this is done, they can at will enter a dimensional void that instantaneously transports them to the location of the seal.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Thunder_God_Technique
And I do have some bias in this, as I was asked to reply to this topic. But that doesn't mean my input can be outright voided based on that. Otherwise, we'll have to weed out 65% of the replies in this thread.
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I like to say kamui isn't a dimension, but rather a doujutsu to cross them. Its descended from sharinnegan anyway so its not at all strange it can go places, that dark one just is what it has a particular affinity with for whatever reason. Nevermind the silliness of the idea that an entire dimension came into being each time a kamui mangekyo was formed, I do have a few reasons I think there's only one of them.
Kamui can teleport you around, meaning the dimension you go to clearly overlaps enough with the main one for you to be able to move around. If it was limited to your eye only, you'd be able to swoop in and out just on the spot, since after all, your eyes can't exist everywhere in the world at once >_>;
Another bit is the intangibility. The overlapping part is phased to the other dimension, yet not entirely, since if it was you'd have just ripped a gaping hole into yourself and most likely committed suicide. Sketchy as hell, but about only way at least I can see it working again is that its its own full dimension that overlaps with this one, allowing you to phase out a part just enough to turn intangible, yet not completely so you don't get rekt by your own jutsu. If you were sending stuff inside your eye instead, I can't really imagine another outcome than just a bloody mess.
Lastly the fact you can go elsewhere with it, especially with both eyes. Being eye specific would mean you can only get in and out of there, but nope, if you synchro with somebody you can follow them even from afar, appear in there about where you wish instead of with the person. Top it off you can even go to 'kamui' dimension and come back there too, proving you can basically go anywhere as long as you know the location and have the chakra. Hell, with both eyes you can even literally rip a hole open to physically see into the other dimension. If it was eye specific in turn, most you could really do in another dimension is just hide in your eyes, basically get in your own pocket in someone elses pocket, pocketception.
Summarized, I believe every kamui type mangekyo by default goes to the same dimension, which quite closely overlaps the main one. And due to this overlapping is why I believe its so easy for them too, as opposed to going into other ones. Obito did mention himself of Kaguya's places being 'incredibly far', so he'd need significantly more chakra than he had to get to it.
So to close on my view of the kamui thing, if a kamui user takes another user into the dimension, it wouldn't really be any more difficult to get out than to just wormhole yourself out.
To briefly address hiraishin, I believe it only really briefly pops you out of this dimension, to a kind of border realm like rinnegan's limbo, then back out again, not into a whole other dimension. Since that'd mean you kinda still are here even as you poof, you'd only really be able to do it inside that dimension, so if you got taken to 'kamui dimension' you'd be stuck teleporting around inside there only. You'd have to get help or make some non-canon jutsu of your own with it, and that's a whole new can of worms.
Summoning I can't say much about, since while known info suggests its basically the same as hiraishin, moving stuff around only inside the same dimension, Hagoromo and kages did summon the bijuu and team 7 out of Kaguya's dimension. However, Hagoromo did mention he was going to do some specific special jutsu for massive chakra amounts, not just a typical summoning, so its highly likely this was either some special rinnegan-only thing if not even Hagoromo's own unique techniques.
Edit: reread the few panels, looks like the special technique was bringing kages back without edo tensei. The fact both Hagoromo and Sasuke were able to pierce into other dimensions though, and not really anyone else, implies its a rinnegan/sharinnegan talent. I imagine Hagoromo made the connection while the kages supplied the power, whereas Sasuke used his own power which led to his eye power weakening temporarily due to how draining it was.
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Well this explanation seems to make sense to me.
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It's still all distance-based. And it was shown that with enough chakra, you can cross that distance. And the fact that the Summoning Technique itself was used to bring them back, means that it's not limited to the Rinnegan. It's really more limited to how much chakra one can muster. It took the chakra pools of Obito and Sakura to reach out and open voids to some of Kaguya's other dimensions.
The whole point again of Space-Time Ninjutsu, is opening voids that are snippets in the space-time continuum that get you from one place to another instantly. There are simply different mediums when going about it.
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Don't think so really. If everything went through 'kamui dimension', then considering Obito's ability to repel Kakashi's wormholes he wouldn't have had any trouble whatsoever catching Minato, he wouldn't have been able to jump anywhere. Alternatively he could have just hung around there, waiting for something or someone to appear, snatch them out of it mid-transfer.
Every kamui mangekyo going to same dimension I do dig, its what I RP by, but the place being THAT universal I just don't and wont buy.
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Most of the things past chapter 600 was it? ARE VOIDED. We did that months ago. I'l have to find the topic, but yeah.
"Kamui allows the user to transfer targets to and from another dimension, from which they are unable to escape. "
It doesn't say they may be able to it only says they can't.
Where's the proof that this dimension is inescapable though?
Yeah, Wikia said it but we all should know that to take that too seriously.
Even the original wording from the databook does not mention anything about it being inescapable.
We do know that ninjutsu can be used within the dimension via Kakashi vs Obito's fight.
Since you're all by the "every kamui mangekyo going to same dimension" thing.
From the fight, we know that Kamui can be used to escape the dimension as well.
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/683/7
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/684/14
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/685/19
Based on those pages, I feel like FTG cannot escape out of a different dimension because I think it's a tech that works in only one dimension. Obito was able to access the other dimensions because the current dimension he was in were linked to the others. If not, I don't think Obito would have been able to reach Sasuke. So it's not like Kamui can give you "free" access to other dimensions. You just only have your own 'pocket dimension' to work with.
Personally, I'm not fond of Kamui. It's worse than FTG in terms of annoyance when people use it to dodge/escape from danger. >.>
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From what I can tell its not 'kamui dimension' that's linked to others though, but rather the first one of Kaguya's that's linked to all of her rest.
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I don't know where this "one dimension" difference comes from, but from what of know of Space-Time Jutsu, they should all be able to somehow intervene with one another. Unless there is a seal or barrier preventing the user from using Summoning or FTG, there is no reason at all they shouldn't work in escaping.
"To activate this technique, the user places a special seal or "technique formula" (術式, jutsu-shiki) to mark an intended destination. After this is done, they can at will enter a dimensional void that instantaneously transports them to the location of the seal."
Kamui has no hinderence to Space-Time users. When the wiki says they are "unable to escape" we have to take that with a grain of salt. Theres no walking to a nearby door and stepping back into our dimension. There is no pathway to the Kamui dimension and ours, unless we make one. All Space-Time create that pathway as long as there is a connection to the outside world, like someone to Reverse Summon you or if you have a Hiraishin kunai out there somewhere.
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It was proven with the Summoning Technique, that inter-dimensional travel via Space-Time Ninjutsu can work. It just takes a bit more chakra to do so, depending on the amount of people that are being transported and how "far" a dimension is.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-686-page-9.html
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It was proven with the Summoning Technique, that inter-dimensional travel via Space-Time Ninjutsu can work. It just takes a bit more chakra to do so, depending on the amount of people that are being transported and how "far" a dimension is.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-686-page-9.html
How does that page link to Summoning Technique?
And there's different levels to Space-Time ninjutsu. Remember Katashi stated that Obito's Space-Time Ninjutsu is more advanced than FTG.
And remember that dimension was linked to the other dimensions.
In addition, before that scene, Obito had to follow Kaguya to her dimension via Kamui.
So it's not like he can go to other dimensions on his own.
I don't know where this "one dimension" difference comes from, but from what of know of Space-Time Jutsu, they should all be able to somehow intervene with one another. Unless there is a seal or barrier preventing the user from using Summoning or FTG, there is no reason at all they shouldn't work in escaping.
"To activate this technique, the user places a special seal or "technique formula" (術式, jutsu-shiki) to mark an intended destination. After this is done, they can at will enter a dimensional void that instantaneously transports them to the location of the seal."
Kamui has no hinderence to Space-Time users. When the wiki says they are "unable to escape" we have to take that with a grain of salt. Theres no walking to a nearby door and stepping back into our dimension. There is no pathway to the Kamui dimension and ours, unless we make one. All Space-Time create that pathway as long as there is a connection to the outside world, like someone to Reverse Summon you or if you have a Hiraishin kunai out there somewhere.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Amenominaka
More than one dimension is considered multi-dimensional, no? >.>
Each dimension is a different world as Naruto called it.
Of the time of head, it's like that anime Gunslinger Stratos.
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Thats not what I was saying. Shadow's statement seems to say that FTG will only work in one dimension, thus not work in the Kamui realm. I wondering where he got that idea.
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It will work in any dimension. You just can't go from one dimension to the next using FTG.
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But why exactly? If you've got a formula weapon or mark both in the dimension and outside, the user should be able to go between the two no muss no fuss.
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How does that page link to Summoning Technique?
A reminder to read through the thread before posting.
Let's be honest here. This is really about the fight.
Most of the things past chapter 600 was it? ARE VOIDED. We did that months ago. I'l have to find the topic, but yeah.
Except for anything relating to Kamui, apparently.
But let's hold-up here. We'll have to break down what Space–Time Ninjutsu is first.
By manipulating a specific point of space, the user can warp anything targeted into a dimensional void and teleport it to another location instantaneously. Minato Namikaze, Obito Uchiha, Sasuke Uchiha, Kakashi Hatake, Tobirama Senju and Kaguya Ōtsutsuki are skilled users of space–time ninjutsu.
All summoning-based techniques are space–time manipulation related, as they warp the targets through a dimensional void to the summoner's location.[1]
Space–Time Ninjutsu allows one to bypass any Barrier Ninjutsu, as barriers only extend over the dimension they are placed upon, which cannot prevent Space–Time Ninjutsu users from escaping to the dimensional void and then back outside of the barrier's confines.[2][3][4]
It appears that each specific space-time technique has its own unique dimensional void that other techniques cannot normally access.[5] However, a user can synchronise their respective dimension with the other one to gain access to it. To achieve this feat, however, requires much more chakra.[6]
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Space%E2%80%93Time_Ninjutsu
So basically you're creating a hole, called a dimensional void, in space-time that acts as a shortcut to get instantaneously from one place to another. The issue here that we're trying to pinpoint is cross-dimensional travel. But really, cross-dimensional travel is the BASIS of ALL Space–Time Ninjutsu if you're creating a dimensional void to slip though the ordinary confines of the space-time continuum. This is EXACTLY how Kamui works as well. Though you're actually able to stay in this dimensional void, instead of just slip through it. That's a big part of what makes Kamui so special, along with not needing seals or a summoning tattoo to perform.
Heck, to escape Kaguya's Dimension after Kaguya got sealed, who was the only one that could take people in and out at that time, Hagoromo and the past kages performed the Summoning Technique to bring Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, Sakura, Madara, Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu, Son Goku, Kokuo, Saiken, Chomei, Gyuki and Kurama. Granted it did take a bit of extra man-power to summon all nine Tailed Beasts. Even in the Gaiden, Sasuke mentions traveling back and forth between Kaguya's Dimension and the regular world.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-691-page-16.html
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-709-page-19.html
But if we're voiding anything not relating to Kamui past chapter 600, then most of this info is useless. But even if we're going with that silly notion, there's also this info on how Hiraishin works.
To activate this technique, the user places a special seal or "technique formula" (術式, jutsu-shiki) to mark an intended destination. After this is done, they can at will enter a dimensional void that instantaneously transports them to the location of the seal.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Thunder_God_Technique
And I do have some bias in this, as I was asked to reply to this topic. But that doesn't mean my input can be outright voided based on that. Otherwise, we'll have to weed out 65% of the replies in this thread.
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How does that page link to Summoning Technique?
A reminder to read through the thread before posting.
I know how Summoning Jutsu relates to Space Time ninjutsu. What I don't understand is that you put a link to a Naruto Manga page that has nothing to do with the Summoning Jutsu.
I don't see an animal summoned from a different dimension in that page you provided.
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How does that page link to Summoning Technique?
A reminder to read through the thread before posting.
I know how Summoning Jutsu relates to Space Time ninjutsu. What I don't understand is that you put a link to a Naruto Manga page that has nothing to do with the Summoning Jutsu.
I don't see an animal summoned from a different dimension in that page you provided.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-691-page-13.html
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-691-page-14.html
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-691-page-15.html
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-691-page-16.html
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Again only assuming it doesn't take rinnegan or kamui-type mangekyo to make the cross dimentional connections. Even if it didn't it'd still take horrible amounts of chakra to do the summoning, not something any normal human or summon would have.
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Thank you Kage for providing better, relevant links.
Okay so based on those links. It's possible.
However, it took about 20 people to summon 4 people from a different dimension.
And some of those summoners have been said to have (near) bijuu level chakra.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Combined_Summoning_Technique
Seeing what was required, it's safe to say that no SINGLE individual is capable of using FTG / Summoning Tech / Space-Time Ninjutsu to escape the dimension of KAGUYA's level.
However, if it's a Kamui-type dimension that one person made, then that means one should be able to escape. Considering how many times Obito was able to warp his whole body a few times between the real world and his dimension, escaping one-time should be feasible. No?
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Thank you Kage for providing better, relevant links.
Okay so based on those links. It's possible.
However, it took about 20 people to summon 4 people from a different dimension.
And some of those summoners have been said to have (near) bijuu level chakra.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Combined_Summoning_Technique
Seeing what was required, it's safe to say that no SINGLE individual is capable of using FTG / Summoning Tech / Space-Time Ninjutsu to escape the dimension of KAGUYA's level.
However, if it's a Kamui-type dimension that one person made, then that means one should be able to escape. Considering how many times Obito was able to warp his whole body a few times between the real world and his dimension, escaping one-time should be feasible. No?
Don't forget to count the huge Tailed Beasts that were also brought across. Size, distance and amount of people most-likely has a factor in this.
Let's also not forget that it took the chakra of two people to continually open dimensional rifts straight to other dimensions, instead of using the Kamui dimension or dimensional voids created by Space-Time Ninjutsu as a middle-man.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-686-page-9.html
Anybody with a large pool of chakra or Tailed Beast could easily circumvent the chakra costs.
It's also been evident in the series that once you've entered a dimension, you've already familiarized yourself enough to know how to go in and out of it.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-610-page-11.html
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-610-page-15.html
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-686-page-5.html
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-686-page-6.html
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-686-page-7.html
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-687-page-11.html
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Okay now you're just talking nonsense.
Hyakugou seal is storing chakra for 3 years, that's far more than just two peoples' worth, not to mention that was a double kamui, and even then was super draining, straining, lasted barely few seconds.
Not something everyone and their mom can do, at all.
Kakashi figured out how kamui work himself before that instance, getting chakra from kyuubi just made it easier for him to come back. Again, kamui, plus massive chakra.
Again something almost nobody could do.
Obito returning to Kaguya's dimension, yet again kamui, used at exact same moment Kaguya's own jutsu.
For claiming hiraishin and summoning would be able to do it, you're doing quite the opposite, just further supporting the fact only rinnegan and kamui can do it.
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Okay now you're just talking nonsense.
Hyakugou seal is storing chakra for 3 years, that's far more than just two peoples' worth, not to mention that was a double kamui, and even then was super draining, straining, lasted barely few seconds.
Not something everyone and their mom can do, at all.
Kakashi figured out how kamui work himself before that instance, getting chakra from kyuubi just made it easier for him to come back. Again, kamui, plus massive chakra.
Again something almost nobody could do.
Obito returning to Kaguya's dimension, yet again kamui, used at exact same moment Kaguya's own jutsu.
For claiming hiraishin and summoning would be able to do it, you're doing quite the opposite, just further supporting the fact only rinnegan and kamui can do it.
But Warren, Obito and Sakura used up most of their chakra before that point.
Also, you did not mention anything about the fact that a Summoning Jutsu was used to bring back people from Kaguya's dimension.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-691-page-13.html
Plus, remember that our topic is to get out of Kamui's pocket dimension, NOT Kaguya's dimension. It's evident that no one would be able to escape Kaguya's dimension by themselves.
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Except Obito had recovered thanks to Naruto, even if it was implied he'd still perish sooner or later due to bijuu removal, Sakura too had been recovering and saving the seal in particular.
And I did earlier, only way I could see that working was because Hagoromo was there to make the connection to Kaguya's dimensions for the others, thanks to his rinnegan.
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Except Obito had recovered thanks to Naruto, even if it was implied he'd still perish sooner or later due to bijuu removal, Sakura too had been recovering and saving the seal in particular.
And I did earlier, only way I could see that working was because Hagoromo was there to make the connection to Kaguya's dimensions for the others, thanks to his rinnegan.
I honestly don't think it's a Rinnegan thing. After all, even Madara needed Kakashi's eye to warp into Kamui's dimension.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-675-page-16.html
You may have a point that it may be a jutsu that only Hagoromo could do, but then why call it Summoning Jutsu? Why not a different name?
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-687-page-4.html
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A time saver, with it he didn't have to spend time looking for the 'kamui dimension', and forcing his way in. A reassurance too, a second eye in case his left rinnegan had been destroyed, he was planning on trying to take Sasuke's rinnegan at first too til he proved too strong for a drive-by like Kakashi got nailed by.
And I'm not saying it wasn't a summoning jutsu, I'm saying it took Hagoromo's rinnegan to bridge the gap while others gave their chakra for usage in the jutsu. Outside of kamui mangekyo, rinnegan's the only thing that crosses entire dimensions like that.
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And I'm not saying it wasn't a summoning jutsu, I'm saying it took Hagoromo's rinnegan to bridge the gap while others gave their chakra for usage in the jutsu. Outside of kamui mangekyo, rinnegan's the only thing that crosses entire dimensions like that.
I don't know why you keep bringing Rinnegan into this, especially when it was the Rinne Sharingan that allowed Kaguya to teleport into different dimensions.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Amenominaka
There's no mentioning of 'bridging dimensions' when Hagoromo talked about what was required for the powerful summoning jutsu. Besides, bridging all those dimensions would cost chakra that he would not have. He even called upon the spirits of the past Kages.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-687-page-4.html
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-691-page-16.html
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Direct descendant still with obvious dimensional powers, kamui mangekyo in turn being a descendant of it with its own stuff. Sasuke's eye wasn't the same third eye rinne sharingan either, yet he had his dimensional stuff too.
And of course he didn't have it, that's why he had the edo kages and other ones help ._.' that's the whole point of combo jutsus. They supplied the power while he did all the work, just the same as Naruto and Gamabunta doing combo-henge had Bunta giving the chakra while Naruto did the seals and gave the form.
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Direct descendant still with obvious dimensional powers, kamui mangekyo in turn being a descendant of it with its own stuff. Sasuke's eye wasn't the same third eye rinne sharingan either, yet he had his dimensional stuff too.
And of course he didn't have it, that's why he had the edo kages and other ones help ._.' that's the whole point of combo jutsus. They supplied the power while he did all the work, just the same as Naruto and Gamabunta doing combo-henge had Bunta giving the chakra while Naruto did the seals and gave the form.
Sasuke's Rinnegan does look like a Rinne Sharingan. But he didn't display any dimensional powers nonetheless. No one with Rinnegan did anything involving dimensions. >.>
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Did, actually. Amenotejikara, his teleport move, lets him move himself and other people/objects around, even swap places if need be. After shippuuden's end and by the gaiden's time he was able to cross whole dimensions with it.
Madara in turn has Limbo, which is a kind of border realm just far enough removed to be invisible without another rinnegan, yet still near enough to affect this world. And I shouldn't even have to start about Hagoromo, dude not only transcends time as a chakra ghost, but pulled souls from pure world too, something which nobody else has ever been able to do without edo tensei since it goes beyond even dimensional travel. And of course, bridged the gap to Kaguya's dimensions to pull Naruto and co back when given the chakra by others.
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Did, actually. Amenotejikara, his teleport move, lets him move himself and other people/objects around, even swap places if need be. After shippuuden's end and by the gaiden's time he was able to cross whole dimensions with it.
Madara in turn has Limbo, which is a kind of border realm just far enough removed to be invisible without another rinnegan, yet still near enough to affect this world. And I shouldn't even have to start about Hagoromo, dude not only transcends time as a chakra ghost, but pulled souls from pure world too, something which nobody else has ever been able to do without edo tensei since it goes beyond even dimensional travel. And of course, bridged the gap to Kaguya's dimensions to pull Naruto and co back when given the chakra by others.
Amenotejikara is simply switching places. Nothing to do with dimensions.
Madara, himself, did not travel to another dimension. And I am not sure about calling that a different dimension. I believe you said it yourself, they are like 'ghost'. >.>
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He specifically called it the 'invisible world of limbo' or something, but I suppose that's a matter of perspective.
Still, you may wish to read the gaiden that came after naruto finished, Sasuke himself said he had been exploring Kaguya's dimensions innit, that it was so taxing his eye powers weakened for a while. He even takes Naruto and co along with himself to hunt down the bad guy. Wiki also states it too, that he started out just teleporting, later expanded to hopping dimensions.
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He specifically called it the 'invisible world of limbo' or something, but I suppose that's a matter of perspective.
Still, you may wish to read the gaiden that came after naruto finished, Sasuke himself said he had been exploring Kaguya's dimensions innit, that it was so taxing his eye powers weakened for a while. He even takes Naruto and co along with himself to hunt down the bad guy. Wiki also states it too, that he started out just teleporting, later expanded to hopping dimensions.
Okay I see it. Although that looks very much like a Rinne Sharingan.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto-gaiden-the-seventh-hokage/8/17
So are you saying that a regular Summoning Jutsu / FTG cannot help one escape from a Kamui pocket dimension?
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Looks similar cause it combines rinnegan and sharingan abilities, but its not the same. The real thing is always a third eye on the forehead, more tomoes, and red.
And pretty much. I don't see hiraishin getting out at all since the way I see it that only works inside the dimension you're currently in, not across others. Summoning jutsu would only work if somebody with rinnegan bridged the gap for you as Hagoromo did.