Shinobi Legends Forum
Roleplay => All That Is Bijuu => Council => Topic started by: Hades on January 20, 2017, 01:06:07 AM
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I will try to be brief and concise here. I am presenting facts for the sake of clarity. The goal of this topic is to generate discussion. It is not intended as a criticism to any council members.
As you can see here, http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8692.0.html, a decision was previously made in a 6:9 vote that council members can not judge biju matches.
At some point, this rule was forgotten and/or the new cohort was not made aware of it. Trev has judged many fights, and Shadow was the judge for at least one; a fight between Athos and Trev. I had forgotten about the rule myself, and seeing Trev and Shadow as judges never made me suspicions, I just ended up assuming council members were allowed to judge.
Athos had Shadow removed as the judge for his fight with Trev. Athos and Trev asked me to judge. I initially accepted. Before I had made any decisions, the thought occurred to me that it might be against the rules after all. I checked, and found the somewhat forgotten vote. Athos and Trev have now moved on to find a different judge so that I do not break any rules.
I messaged the council. Some confirmed that, to the best of anyone's knowledge, the decision that was voted on has not been changed. Others pointed out that council members have been serving as judges anyway, some stating that they personally do not mind.
I had voted that council members could serve as judges. Therein, I recognize that I am biased. However, I think if two people agree on a judge because they think that person is fair, then that's their agreement.
Acknowledging my own perspective, but also taking into consideration the variety of responses I received from other council members, I just wanted to bring this to light, and begin a discussion about whether we (as a community) think that council members should be prevented from judging or if the vote should be changed because people might prefer council members be able to judge.
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I don't mind rescinding the original vote in order to allow council members the opportunity to judge.
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A revote may be in order if the rule is going to be disregarded anyways, though as you say it is probably an issue of forgetfulness more than anything. Not sure how I feel on this particular issue at the moment though, since conflicts of interest involving council members judging matches might not be as serious as the CoI incurred from being a participant.
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Can someone give me an example of a conflict of interest that could occur with a council member being a judge? I really don't see it.
Currently I changed up my judges to follow the rules because I don't want my opponents at the end of our fights deciding all of a sudden that our judge doesn't count. Other than that though I don't really see it being a big problem to let council members be judges and change the rule to reflect that.
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Yeah, I apologize to the community and specifically Genesis, Athos, Shadow, Kamui, Jay, and Dart. Due to my negligence, I have caused a delay in the respective fights and I am very sorry.
However, it is my opinion that anyone can be used as a judge. I thought my decisions were unbiased, so I don't really see a reason why a council member couldn't be a judge. And it's not like I actively sought to be the judge, I was asked as everyone felt comfortable with me, so I accepted.
So that's my two cents, and I'm not saying just so I can remain, judge, I've already stepped down to be in compliance with the rules, and won't be getting back in even if this thread approves so.
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At the time, it was a good idea. But disagree with reasoning Kirk gave out a year ago.
But each of the challengers agree on the Judge they want. It's not that hard to understand everyone interprets the rules or what not differently. The challengers who agree on that Judge also agree with the interpretations and views that Judge has or shares. So it shouldn't be a total shock when that judge makes a choice that reflect their views.
Plus it makes it hard to look for Judges. You have a good group of competent people on this council, it sorta knocks out the pool of existing judges.
Also jinch's are serving on the council too, so that throws the bias argument for a loop also. Though I believe the member of the council that are jinchs should be limited to less than the majority.
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A revote may be in order if the rule is going to be disregarded anyways, though as you say it is probably an issue of forgetfulness more than anything. Not sure how I feel on this particular issue at the moment though, since conflicts of interest involving council members judging matches might not be as serious as the CoI incurred from being a participant.
From the different perspectives that were given, a re-vote may be in order on the agenda.
I certainly have no problems with council members being judges as long as they comply with rules and guidelines that comes along with that role; this means no bias towards either party.
The rule that Hades brought up was from a previous council and at the time it was a good idea, but presently it makes it hard to pick someone from a pool of competent judges.
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The only frustrating part about this is that we have Council members breaking or disregarding the rules alongside non-Council members. Add in the ability to judge biju matches and suddenly many of the powers that the 1st Cohort lacked are included hardly a month after the end of the previous cohorts' tenure.
If council members can and not must issue warnings for rule violations (in other words, at whim basically), judge biju matches, and by sheer number influence any vote decision on rules, I can't help but wonder what a bunch of like-minded individuals might do with the power to basically run everything biju.
I mean, said individuals can even vote for each other during election season!
I am not saying that the current cohort is like that, because it's not. But if the original intent of the Council was to enforce the rules when violations occur, then I think this progresses us further away from that semi-limited role.
Is that a good thing? Well, I am not sure. The activity thread issue has finally gotten worked out, and this judge thing is leaning in the direction of a revote on the rule, but the notion that competent, trustworthy judges that are not Council members are just that hard to come by makes me want to evaluate our judge picking process. Because other than a void list and a few other points, all of these OOC fights are just zone fights.
It takes some knowledge and expertise to judge them, yes, but so much so that the most reasonable judges are reduced to a list smaller than 5?
I just can't grasp that statistic, honestly. There has to be a factor that I am not considering for this to make sense to me.
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Well considering the first three or so people off the top of Genesis' head to replace Trev as judge were all council members I'd say it's a noticeable issue.
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A few of the old rules may need to be looked over again. This is the 2nd cohort and already you can see the difference in opinions. If a re-vote were taken I'd doubt the previous rule that council members couldn't judge would stand.
I just can't grasp that statistic, honestly. There has to be a factor that I am not considering for this to make sense to me.
(https://media.tenor.co/images/9541febe548f2c9f266c0c5b8a09419d/raw)
Statistically. Our peak number of players is, what, around 30? Now minus 20 people who don't care about bijuu and then you're left with 10 people. The council consists of 7 of those people. Trev is one of those seven and is currently the favorite judge of the people.
That's SL player statistics for you.
The council was chosen for their 'expertise' on bijuu matters. It shouldn't be hard to comprehend that in the same manner they were picked as a council member that they'd be the choice for judging.
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Statistically. Our peak number of players is, what, around 30? Now minus 20 people who don't care about bijuu and then you're left with 10 people. The council consists of 7 of those people. Trev is one of those seven and is currently the favorite judge of the people.
That's SL player statistics for you...
Really? Is that really how gone it is, those numbers? I had no idea; that would most certainly count as a factor I had not taken into consideration.
Where did you get that number 30 from?
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If a re-vote were taken I'd doubt the previous rule that council members couldn't judge would stand.
That is for another topic to discuss amongst the council members soon enough, in the meantime I added a seven-day poll to this thread for public use. (Council can vote and/or discuss it in a another thread.)
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If a re-vote were taken I'd doubt the previous rule that council members couldn't judge would stand.
That is for another topic to discuss amongst the council members soon enough, in the meantime I added a seven-day poll to this thread for public use. (Council can vote and/or discuss it in a another thread.)
What do you mean for Council Members to vote on and discuss? While Shadow has clearly established for me that that is the majority of people who care about the biju in one hat, this is a vote to amend a rule, and so only requires further discussion here and then a vote thread to be made. No need for separate discussion threads regarding rule amendments.
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If a re-vote were taken I'd doubt the previous rule that council members couldn't judge would stand.
That is for another topic to discuss amongst the council members soon enough, in the meantime I added a seven-day poll to this thread for public use. (Council can vote and/or discuss it in a another thread.)
What do you mean for Council Members to vote on and discuss? While Shadow has clearly established for me that that is the majority of people who care about the biju in one hat, this is a vote to amend a rule, and so only requires further discussion here and then a vote thread to be made. No need for separate discussion threads regarding rule amendments.
I figured that it was something for the council to discuss and vote on there agenda, but I guess not. I already created a poll on this thread, but knowing how unreliable polls on here are nowadays. We might as well create a vote thread, once the discussion is done here. :D
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I figured that it was something for the council to discuss and vote on there agenda
You had me until this. Elected officials should not be able to decide the extent of their power. That should be for their constituents.
That's not to say you shouldn't get a say, but you can't have the only say.
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I figured that it was something for the council to discuss and vote on there agenda
You had me until this. Elected officials should not be able to decide the extent of their power. That should be for their constituents.
That's not to say you shouldn't get a say, but you can't have the only say.
The community will always get a word in when it comes to discussions, but council is the one that has the final say so, since their vote would decide if that proposition becomes a new rule. I'm sure that you heard of closed session council meetings, where discussion and voting is strictly done by those participating members. (The community can still voice their opinions, but the final decisions usually comes from that council.)
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I figured that it was something for the council to discuss and vote on there agenda
You had me until this. Elected officials should not be able to decide the extent of their power. That should be for their constituents.
That's not to say you shouldn't get a say, but you can't have the only say.
The community will always get a word in when it comes to discussions, but council is the one that has the final say so, since their vote would decide if that proposition becomes a new rule. I'm sure that you heard of closed session council meetings, where discussion and voting is strictly done by those participating members. (The community can still voice their opinions, but the final decisions usually comes from that council.)
No, not technically, I think that you are confusing a Council ruling on rule enforcement and community voting on rule amendment. The two are technically separate acts. This is a rule amendment, not a Council decision on enforcement of the rule.
Enforcement of the rules would be like, say, instead of Kayenta being the one posting a thread about hosts getting their stuff together on activity threads, the Council as a whole should have made a note about that, or should have begun issuing warnings the moment that opened up. Especially after threads were made FOR the hosts and there was still some lazing around on the matter.
Or Trev being a favored judge and judging matches completely against the rules, on whether there should be punishment for that or not sort of thing.
Amending the rules and adding them goes through the same process that rule addition goes through. Discussion thread and then a vote thread, both of which being public and not Council-specific or non-Council specific.
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I figured that it was something for the council to discuss and vote on there agenda
You had me until this. Elected officials should not be able to decide the extent of their power. That should be for their constituents.
That's not to say you shouldn't get a say, but you can't have the only say.
The community will always get a word in when it comes to discussions, but council is the one that has the final say so, since their vote would decide if that proposition becomes a new rule. I'm sure that you heard of closed session council meetings, where discussion and voting is strictly done by those participating members. (The community can still voice their opinions, but the final decisions usually comes from that council.)
No, not technically, I think that you are confusing a Council ruling on rule enforcement and community voting on rule amendment. The two are technically separate acts. This is a rule amendment, not a Council decision on enforcement of the rule.
Enforcement of the rules would be like, say, instead of Kayenta being the one posting a thread about hosts getting their stuff together on activity threads, the Council as a whole should have made a note about that, or should have begun issuing warnings the moment that opened up. Especially after threads were made FOR the hosts and there was still some lazing around on the matter.
Or Trev being a favored judge and judging matches completely against the rules, on whether there should be punishment for that or not sort of thing.
Amending the rules and adding them goes through the same process that rule addition goes through. Discussion thread and then a vote thread, both of which being public and not Council-specific or non-Council specific.
This, basically.
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I figured that it was something for the council to discuss and vote on there agenda
You had me until this. Elected officials should not be able to decide the extent of their power. That should be for their constituents.
That's not to say you shouldn't get a say, but you can't have the only say.
The community will always get a word in when it comes to discussions, but council is the one that has the final say so, since their vote would decide if that proposition becomes a new rule. I'm sure that you heard of closed session council meetings, where discussion and voting is strictly done by those participating members. (The community can still voice their opinions, but the final decisions usually comes from that council.)
No, not technically, I think that you are confusing a Council ruling on rule enforcement and community voting on rule amendment. The two are technically separate acts. This is a rule amendment, not a Council decision on enforcement of the rule.
Enforcement of the rules would be like, say, instead of Kayenta being the one posting a thread about hosts getting their stuff together on activity threads, the Council as a whole should have made a note about that, or should have begun issuing warnings the moment that opened up. Especially after threads were made FOR the hosts and there was still some lazing around on the matter.
Or Trev being a favored judge and judging matches completely against the rules, on whether there should be punishment for that or not sort of thing.
Amending the rules and adding them goes through the same process that rule addition goes through. Discussion thread and then a vote thread, both of which being public and not Council-specific or non-Council specific.
I understand that this is a rule amendment, which is why I added a seven day poll to further legitimatize that this was a discussion/vote thread.
Let me better rephrase myself: The community will always get a word in when it comes to bijuu-related discussions, but in the end the council is the one that has the final say so. Since their vote would decide if that proposition regarding that bijuu-related subject will become a new bijuu-related rule or not.
As for rule enforcement? Well I appreciated that Kayenta brought that issue to light, otherwise I was sure that if I didn't addressed it. Another council member would've done so and lately we have been dealing out warnings for jichuuriki that intend to laze around. :oops:
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I think, unless I misunderstood something, that what people are saying is that it should be the whole community discussing council members as judges and voting to change the current rule.
It should not be a council-only vote to change a rule which impacts what we are or are not able to do.
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They're worried about the council governing themselves on what they can and can't do. Which is understandable if you take into consideration certain parts of history. In that aspect it's a bad idea. That being said I wouldn't rank the SL Council on par with said historical circumstances.
We are editing just one rule that allows us to judge bijuu matches. It makes sense to me that the ones who decide on bijuu rules can also judge bijuu matches. Not all qualifying people are on the council, but a few are.
I don't want to block out the community voice either. They have a say in how far our power reaches and what we can do. If the majority says we can't do 'X' then that's that. We operate with transparency.
A council vote and a community vote seems like the best bet to me.
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Let me better rephrase myself: The community will always get a word in when it comes to bijuu-related discussions, but in the end the council is the one that has the final say so. Since their vote would decide if that proposition regarding that bijuu-related subject will become a new bijuu-related rule or not.
Let me try a different approach, as clearly my previous one did not get the perspective across.
Say that there are 15 people who care about biju left on this site, just hypothetically speaking, and 7 of them consist of the Biju Council members. Even if the Council votes 7 to nothing for yes on an issue then if the non-Council members were to vote 8 to nothing no, then the non-Council member vote takes the day.
More likely than not it is going to be more of a mixture. It is pointless having two separate votes. Why is there such an insistence on changing the way that rules are added and changed all of a sudden?
They're worried about the council governing themselves on what they can and can't do. Which is understandable if you take into consideration certain parts of history. In that aspect it's a bad idea. That being said I wouldn't rank the SL Council on par with said historical circumstances...
I am worried about the Council becoming so powerful that it becomes redundant and, as people feared during the 1st cohort, so powerful that it goes beyond the original intention of the Council.
From the get-go I warned and showed concern about the Council defacto changing the rules if the process for amending rules and the Council's own responsbilities were not written in stone, but this goes to a whole nother level of conspiracy. If everyone on the Council is so tight that the Council vote alone would smash the non-Council and one or two Council dissenter voters, it becomes a majority rules situation again just like before the Council was established. Which means that the Council becomes "the community", not just "a part of the community", and once again the community is left alone to completely regulate itself. Making having a "Council" pointless.
The original intent of the Council was for it to faithfully enforce the rules, an Executive Branch if you will, that was a select few trusted RPers who would be unbiased somewhat in their efforts. Due to the increase in the size of the Council and the opening up to jinchurikii, conflicts of interest have been creeping up in subtle ways here and there. To say that only the Council vote matters both for practical and for theoretical reasons is akin to giving the President of the United States and his Cabinent the power to write laws (not just executive orders and similar things).
We are editing just one rule that allows us to judge bijuu matches. It makes sense to me that the ones who decide on bijuu rules can also judge bijuu matches.
That's not the Council's job, the Council has not been explicitly given that power at any point in this process. The ones who enforce and perhaps even interpret the rules, not create or edit, the biju rules describe the Council.
Am I talking to people who had nothing to do with the process of creating this iteration of the Council or something? I don't see how else there is confusion on why this notion - of the Council vote alone determining if a rule that affects the Council's powers and duties is editted one way or another - does not have a rattling effect, particularly on non-Council members.
SL is full of examples of loophole and rule abuse. This forum has got plenty from the old biju days that we might can dig through.
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I agree with Eric. A Council, an unbiased Council (let me point out that keyword) is here to settle arguments... to keep the peace. At least, that's how I see them in my eyes. If an issue was to be brought up to them, it rests on them to discuss it amongst themselves with cool minds. The issue bringer doesn't need to continue being angry and all that bickering back and forth about things and trust me, I can sense the contempt in the words.
If there was a vote that needed to be done, that involved the community, the Council would input their votes just as much as the rest of the community, just to keep from having two voting sessions where one can override the other. This example of the odd number of the SL community is to prevent the event of a tie (estimating if all 15 members were to vote). If the Council was allowed to edit one rule, what would stop them from editing the others? Just as the Council is like the police (as they enforce the rules) who would police the police? I would suggest Ace... but he's on the council... so is it our God, Neji? Well... obviously. Bam, question answered. I should simply just strike this from the record.
In any case, the only thing that matters, in my eyes, is just how many members of the community are indeed involved in the matters of the Tailed Beasts? And how many members of the Council are active in the matters of said aforementioned Beasts? Depending on the number, we simply eliminate those members from being Judges for the duration of their tenure and those that aren't involved can be judges. Simply because they're the truly unbiased members of the council that can't possibly be swayed to either side of the spectrum.. they don't care who benefits more from their decision. But that's just my opinion on the topic at hand. You can choose to ignore it, agree with it or disagree with it.
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Time to speak up. =)
New rules, amendments, etc., that should be voted by everyone. Afterall, that is what governs the Council. ;)
Any person, council member or not, can put up a vote-- council members should do that! :D
But, all should have a say.
On other matters, the council has the sole say. But as it relates to topics like this, seems like an everyone" matter. ^^
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I am really kind of shocked to see this topic.
Council member do not make bijuu rules. The community makes them. So it really doesn't matter what council is in office at the time. It has absolutely no weight at all.
Council members can't just go around voting among themselves on rules to change. That is corruption of the highest form.
As a member of the community they can vote on these things right along with everyone else.
And I am sorry that there doesn't seem to be very many people on SL interested in the bijuu anymore. But unless the community votes to change the rule, there really isn't anything the council can do to change that. It might be time to go out and make some friends, to stop making bijuu things so hateful, and attract some new blood into the fold.