Shinobi Legends Forum
Roleplay => Village Square => Topic started by: Vail on March 11, 2017, 10:18:58 PM
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Hey everyone,
Hope you're having a good day / night. If not, I hope it gets better for you!
Now, this is something I've seen happen in quite a few fights on SL. Player A casts a genjutsu. Player B not only notices that they've been caught in a genjutsu, but also dispels said genjutsu all in a span of time that's effectively instantaneous.
Here's a recent example of this (with name's redacted because I don't want to be that guy): "Thankfully she had her doujtusu active! Once ___’s genjutsu was cast, ____ was able to see through it and break it nearly as quickly as it was developed."
"Nearly as quickly as it was developed". That kind of thing comes off as incredibly cheap to me, even with Dojutsu. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the canon show that even Sharingan users had to take SOME time (enough time for an opponent to potentially capitalize on them being under a genjutsu) in order to dispel / reverse a genjutsu?
An example that comes to mind is when Kurenai and Itachi fought: Skip to 3:40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxLcE0aEnp4). Itachi is a master with the sharingan, and yet nearly 2 dozen seconds passed before he reversed the genjutsu on Kurenai. I suppose one could argue that he chose to wait that long, but why would he do that instead of just reversing it as quickly as he could?
That aside, the point I'm making is that people shouldn't be allowed to just insta-break genjutsu because it reduces genjutsu to a meaningless aspect of the game. The only scenario that I can think of in which it'd be acceptable to do that is if I have EMS and a novice with no dojutsu tries to cast a genjutsu on me. But this insta-breaking of genjutsu definitely shouldn't be happening with "high level" people or people who both have dojutsu that make them more adept at genjutsu.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how we may mitigate this?
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I've dealt with this dilemma several times myself. As much fun as it would be to trap someone within an illusion of sorts for several turns in a fight, I've ultimately resorted to minor sensory genjutsus which can help Tomi get out of a jam, IE, misdirect where his location is and yada yada. But like you said, people will often instant claim to get out of it or just 'don't look into the eyes' which the latter is a fair tactic against ocular types. If you noticed, even Sasuke when fighting Itachi before Tsukiyomi was active, often dealt with the crow dispersal genjutsu of Itachi's for evasion despite both of them having the Sharingan active. From what I've read, the main reason the sharingan can detect genjutsu so easily is because the fact it can see the several flaws projected by an illusion to notice there's something wrong with the picture, then check their own chakra network, yada yada. Weaker genjutsu which doesn't alter the scenery too much, thus has less flaws to detect is more likely to go undetected until after the fact by this logic.
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I've dealt with this dilemma several times myself. As much fun as it would be to trap someone within an illusion of sorts for several turns in a fight, I've ultimately resorted to minor sensory genjutsus which can help Tomi get out of a jam, IE, misdirect where his location is and yada yada. But like you said, people will often instant claim to get out of it or just 'don't look into the eyes' which the latter is a fair tactic against ocular types. If you noticed, even Sasuke when fighting Itachi before Tsukiyomi was active, often dealt with the crow dispersal genjutsu of Itachi's for evasion despite both of them having the Sharingan active. From what I've read, the main reason the sharingan can detect genjutsu so easily is because the fact it can see the several flaws projected by an illusion to notice there's something wrong with the picture, then check their own chakra network, yada yada. Weaker genjutsu which doesn't alter the scenery too much, thus has less flaws to detect is more likely to go undetected until after the fact by this logic.
Good point with the Sasuke and Itachi thing. Sasuke had his sharingan active and still had no idea that Itachi had cast a genjutsu on him.
I think you have it backward, though. A stronger genjutsu has less perceivable flaws.
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I'll just add a little note. You can't instantly detect and negate genjutsu. Takes some time.
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I've dealt with this dilemma several times myself. As much fun as it would be to trap someone within an illusion of sorts for several turns in a fight, I've ultimately resorted to minor sensory genjutsus which can help Tomi get out of a jam, IE, misdirect where his location is and yada yada. But like you said, people will often instant claim to get out of it or just 'don't look into the eyes' which the latter is a fair tactic against ocular types. If you noticed, even Sasuke when fighting Itachi before Tsukiyomi was active, often dealt with the crow dispersal genjutsu of Itachi's for evasion despite both of them having the Sharingan active. From what I've read, the main reason the sharingan can detect genjutsu so easily is because the fact it can see the several flaws projected by an illusion to notice there's something wrong with the picture, then check their own chakra network, yada yada. Weaker genjutsu which doesn't alter the scenery too much, thus has less flaws to detect is more likely to go undetected until after the fact by this logic.
Good point with the Sasuke and Itachi thing. Sasuke had his sharingan active and still had no idea that Itachi had cast a genjutsu on him.
I think you have it backward, though. A stronger genjutsu has less perceivable flaws.
Hmm, guess I did word that a little wrong. By 'weak' I meant genjutsu which doesn't alter scenery too much ie small scale. I was suggesting large scale genjutsus which alter more of the senses with various hallucinations are more likely to have more flaws which can be detected.
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The fact that people break out of genjutsu in an instant probably has something to do with the fact that a split second could determine a win/loss. So that means that people probably lost things because they got caught in a genjutsu and then claimed said genjutsu was auto-hitting because they couldn't get out of it fast enough so genjutsu was pretty much dropped. That's what I believe, at least.
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I don't believe in instant dispersal of genjutsu, even for sharingan users, much for the same reason you state. Even for really weak ones, a second is a more reasonable timetable.
"Thankfully she had her doujtusu active! Once ___’s genjutsu was cast, ____ was able to see through it and break it nearly as quickly as it was developed."
Now in a biju fight, depending on how long it took to cast the genjutsu, that could reaaally go against the player breaking the genjutsu. Anything requiring handsigns would definitely have required more time to develop than near instant.
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I've dealt with this dilemma several times myself. As much fun as it would be to trap someone within an illusion of sorts for several turns in a fight, I've ultimately resorted to minor sensory genjutsus which can help Tomi get out of a jam, IE, misdirect where his location is and yada yada. But like you said, people will often instant claim to get out of it or just 'don't look into the eyes' which the latter is a fair tactic against ocular types. If you noticed, even Sasuke when fighting Itachi before Tsukiyomi was active, often dealt with the crow dispersal genjutsu of Itachi's for evasion despite both of them having the Sharingan active. From what I've read, the main reason the sharingan can detect genjutsu so easily is because the fact it can see the several flaws projected by an illusion to notice there's something wrong with the picture, then check their own chakra network, yada yada. Weaker genjutsu which doesn't alter the scenery too much, thus has less flaws to detect is more likely to go undetected until after the fact by this logic.
Good point with the Sasuke and Itachi thing. Sasuke had his sharingan active and still had no idea that Itachi had cast a genjutsu on him.
I think you have it backward, though. A stronger genjutsu has less perceivable flaws.
Hmm, guess I did word that a little wrong. By 'weak' I meant genjutsu which doesn't alter scenery too much ie small scale. I was suggesting large scale genjutsus which alter more of the senses with various hallucinations are more likely to have more flaws which can be detected.
I see what you're saying now. I agree.
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The fact that people break out of genjutsu in an instant probably has something to do with the fact that a split second could determine a win/loss. So that means that people probably lost things because they got caught in a genjutsu and then claimed said genjutsu was auto-hitting because they couldn't get out of it fast enough so genjutsu was pretty much dropped. That's what I believe, at least.
I understand why someone would want to break out of genjutsu instantly. You're right. Those few seconds could decide the fight, but that's not the opponent's fault. It's not hard for your opponent to give you a viable option to escape their genjutsu even if you can't instantly negate it. I did just that in a fight against Nekomaru and Ray.
For those who make that argument, I say: It's not an autohit if you can't instantly break a genjutsu. It's common sense, and fair.
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I don't believe in instant dispersal of genjutsu, even for sharingan users, much for the same reason you state. Even for really weak ones, a second is a more reasonable timetable.
"Thankfully she had her doujtusu active! Once ___’s genjutsu was cast, ____ was able to see through it and break it nearly as quickly as it was developed."
Now in a biju fight, depending on how long it took to cast the genjutsu, that could reaaally go against the player breaking the genjutsu. Anything requiring handsigns would definitely have required more time to develop than near instant.
So do you think that we could come up with a system that describes how long genjutsu would last in terms of turns? Or would that not work?
And that's the same thing I was thinking, yeah. If it took me nearly a minute to activate this genjutsu, and you're saying that it took you a little longer than that to break it, then that's more than enough time to end the fight.
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I don't believe in instant dispersal of genjutsu, even for sharingan users, much for the same reason you state. Even for really weak ones, a second is a more reasonable timetable.
"Thankfully she had her doujtusu active! Once ___’s genjutsu was cast, ____ was able to see through it and break it nearly as quickly as it was developed."
Now in a biju fight, depending on how long it took to cast the genjutsu, that could reaaally go against the player breaking the genjutsu. Anything requiring handsigns would definitely have required more time to develop than near instant.
So do you think that we could come up with a system that describes how long genjutsu would last in terms of turns? Or would that not work?
That would make genjutsu have a super strong comeback because then it would be a guaranteed hit for X amount of turns. No, I would prefer genjutsu requiring an action of the target at the very least along with no insta-release, even for sharingan users, especially those who do not specialize in genjutsu (no, I don't see how you specialize in genjutsu without a single genjutsu technique in your arsenal).
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I don't believe in instant dispersal of genjutsu, even for sharingan users, much for the same reason you state. Even for really weak ones, a second is a more reasonable timetable.
"Thankfully she had her doujtusu active! Once ___’s genjutsu was cast, ____ was able to see through it and break it nearly as quickly as it was developed."
Now in a biju fight, depending on how long it took to cast the genjutsu, that could reaaally go against the player breaking the genjutsu. Anything requiring handsigns would definitely have required more time to develop than near instant.
So do you think that we could come up with a system that describes how long genjutsu would last in terms of turns? Or would that not work?
That would make genjutsu have a super strong comeback because then it would be a guaranteed hit for X amount of turns. No, I would prefer genjutsu requiring an action of the target at the very least along with no insta-release, even for sharingan users, especially those who do not specialize in genjutsu (no, I don't see how you specialize in genjutsu without a single genjutsu technique in your arsenal).
So should it be that, the target has the opportunity to initially prevent themselves from being placed under the genjutsu in the first place (by say, creating a smokescreen). However, if they are caught in it, there's a minimum turn requirement (say 1) that has to pass before they can get out of it. Sound okay?
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Depending on the player, nearly instant escape of Genjutsu wouldn't be out of the question as I've seen a few who either exploit the weaknesses of Genjutsu to the extreme (like someone being in constant physical pain), found ways to make themselves immune, or developed counter-Genjutsu methods such as Ninjutsu that responds to certain conditions. Others have master level Doujutsu, are Karin like sensors, and/or have a Bijuu that help with fast recognition and escape.
Also, like what was pointed out before, "some time" can be the factor between winning or losing in a match. Lets say it takes a minimum of 2 seconds for a master Doujutsu user to escape a Genjutsu as a given, their fate is probably sealed unless they can escape it faster than the time it took for them to recognize and react just as swiftly. So I think each instance should be taken on a case by case basis rather than a flat out rule due to the many factors that might play into it.
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Sound Genjutsu > everything.
Soon everyone's going to either claim to be deaf or just immune to sound techniques because of me and this post. >>; Seriously though, y'all slacking on them beats bruh. I know Kirk and the sound og's know whats good though. Sound waves will get to ya. But then again Shari/Rinne hacks and shit. Still worth a try though.
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I don't believe in instant dispersal of genjutsu, even for sharingan users, much for the same reason you state. Even for really weak ones, a second is a more reasonable timetable.
"Thankfully she had her doujtusu active! Once ___’s genjutsu was cast, ____ was able to see through it and break it nearly as quickly as it was developed."
Now in a biju fight, depending on how long it took to cast the genjutsu, that could reaaally go against the player breaking the genjutsu. Anything requiring handsigns would definitely have required more time to develop than near instant.
So do you think that we could come up with a system that describes how long genjutsu would last in terms of turns? Or would that not work?
That would make genjutsu have a super strong comeback because then it would be a guaranteed hit for X amount of turns. No, I would prefer genjutsu requiring an action of the target at the very least along with no insta-release, even for sharingan users, especially those who do not specialize in genjutsu (no, I don't see how you specialize in genjutsu without a single genjutsu technique in your arsenal).
So should it be that, the target has the opportunity to initially prevent themselves from being placed under the genjutsu in the first place (by say, creating a smokescreen). However, if they are caught in it, there's a minimum turn requirement (say 1) that has to pass before they can get out of it. Sound okay?
I think it would be better, as Madara said, to avoid a turn limit on escape per say, and instead have an action limit reduction and some time (even if a turn lasts 3 seconds or a whole minute, we want this to be consistent), even if that time is half a second. Instant release is the issue I have. However, the whole point of using genjutsu that you know your opponent is going to sooner break is to take advantage of that small window of time to attack or escape. Would be defeating the purpose if there was no window of weakness.
Sound Genjutsu > everything.
Soon everyone's going to either claim to be deaf or just immune to sound techniques because of me and this post. >>; Seriously though, y'all slacking on them beats bruh. I know Kirk and the sound og's know whats good though. Sound waves will get to ya. But then again Shari/Rinne hacks and shit. Still worth a try though.
Except against wind release defenses of sufficient strength or vaccums. There are also some people who simply void sound release jutsu of certain types (IE, sound waves that shatter bones and stuff).
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Well it would be godmod to not have a possible counter to something, no? Everything needs its yin-yang sort of deal.
I'm not sure if Bone Shattering sound is considered Genjutsu though, thats borderline ninjutsu if anything. Besides, sound waves don't only travel through the air. Ever been way back in a concert and could still feel the ground shaking from the bass? I know I have and that alone would have an affect on people.
Snake charming only works because of vibrations, and yet it doesn't even really work. The snakes just protect themselves, given they can sense the vibrations and see the charmer as a threat. Sound really is a great force. Meaning that some simple vacuming/wind techs wouldn't just cut it. >>;
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... Snake charming only works because of vibrations, and yet it doesn't even really work. The snakes just protect themselves, given they can sense the vibrations and see the charmer as a threat. Sound really is a great force. Meaning that some simple vacuming/wind techs wouldn't just cut it. >>;
That's assuming that the protection does not extend into all potential sources of incoming vibrations. An airborne target would probably have an easier time than a ground-bound one, but sound requires a medium to travel through. If that medium absorbs chakra or redirects the waves, then even sound itself can be taken down a notch.
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I made a sound/chakra modulating ear buds which disrupts/alters sound base attacks directed into the head to become ultimately harmless. Obviously doesn't protect the whole body but I've noticed people adopting similar items. Plus it is In theory possible to make a seal on your body which detects abnormal chakra flow in the head & alert the wearer, making their attempts at breaking illusions all the faster
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The problem with Genjutsu is that the logical extreme is always, "I put you under a Genjutsu where the only thing that is being hidden is that I am casting a Kamui on you and the Kamui itself." so if we made a rule that it takes two seconds, no exceptions, to break a Genjutsu, then that would decide every fight. Or rather everyone would just start wearing personal anti-time space defense like the Akatsuki rings. The point is it would always degenerate into something like that.
There does need to be some time to defend yourself from a Genjutsu. If people can cast their memory back to the Chunin exam we might remember the one time Genjutsu used by Kabuto.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Temple_of_Nirvana_Technique
If you see the feathers they put you to sleep but you have some time after seeing them before it takes effect. That's how all Genjutsu should work but approximately 0% of people rp it that way. If you make eye contact with a Sharingan user the fight is over because they will you to fall unconscious. Genjutsu is just by nature a problem since you get to tell other people what they see, feel, hear, etc, so it's really really easy to make it god mod.
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Bump.
I'm still in support of Eric's suggestion: "I would prefer genjutsu requiring an action of the target at the very least along with no insta-release, even for sharingan users, especially those who do not specialize in genjutsu (no, I don't see how you specialize in genjutsu without a single genjutsu technique in your arsenal)."
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I have a way we can potentially make the use of genjutsu fair in fights with judges, particularly biju fights. We introduce a sort of "buddy system". The whole point of genjutsu is to manipulate your opponent's senses to produce a desired effect. It's almost always used in a subtle and deceptive manner. Outright posting that you attempt to place your opponent in a genjutsu defeats the purpose, and encourages metagaming and insta-negation of genjutsu.
So instead, the way I suggest we do it (which is how I've typically done it on other sites) is to make subtle references toward the potential activation of a genjutsu in one's posts and leave it to the opponent to pick up on it or not. This would work especially well if the environment within which a fight takes place is described before hand, or if emphasis is placed on a particular instance in the course of a fight that could be used to cast a genjutsu.
An example of this would be you making reference to your character waving their hand and giving particular details about it, which isn't something people would normally put a lot of detail into in the middle of a fight.
Another example could be you describing that there is a particular smell of lilac in the area.
Of course if we're talking about non-dojutsu based genjutsu, then it would likely need to be accompanied by a hand seal of some sort just to make it fairer. That could easily be concealed among the hand-signs for another technique as well.
Another thing we could do, particularly for fights with judges is instead of posting the genjutsu they can PM the judge with the jutsu used and a link to the thread. Then it can’t be claimed at a later point that the user was god-modding and had never done the technique.
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You void Genjutsu and then hide from it entirely << Usually seems to work here.
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No, lol. Posts that actually contribute only, please.
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I have a way we can potentially make the use of genjutsu fair in fights with judges, particularly biju fights. We introduce a sort of "buddy system". The whole point of genjutsu is to manipulate your opponent's senses to produce a desired effect. It's almost always used in a subtle and deceptive manner. Outright posting that you attempt to place your opponent in a genjutsu defeats the purpose, and encourages metagaming and insta-negation of genjutsu.
So instead, the way I suggest we do it (which is how I've typically done it on other sites) is to make subtle references toward the potential activation of a genjutsu in one's posts and leave it to the opponent to pick up on it or not. This would work especially well if the environment within which a fight takes place is described before hand, or if emphasis is placed on a particular instance in the course of a fight that could be used to cast a genjutsu.
An example of this would be you making reference to your character waving their hand and giving particular details about it, which isn't something people would normally put a lot of detail into in the middle of a fight.
Another example could be you describing that there is a particular smell of lilac in the area.
Of course if we're talking about non-dojutsu based genjutsu, then it would likely need to be accompanied by a hand seal of some sort just to make it fairer. That could easily be concealed among the hand-signs for another technique as well.
Another thing we could do, particularly for fights with judges is instead of posting the genjutsu they can PM the judge with the jutsu used and a link to the thread. Then it can’t be claimed at a later point that the user was god-modding and had never done the technique.
Wouldn't the action limit reflect the use of the Genjutsu? Using your chakra to influence the area into a Genjutsu would totally function into the action limit. Unless we can use three and only if the opponent doesn't notice the use of Genjutsu, then it can be a special action. I don't know, just a thought.