Shinobi Legends Forum
Roleplay => Village Square => Topic started by: Ѕhadow on March 06, 2015, 08:29:03 PM
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How many people claim the power of Hiraishin now? I've seen more people claim to have it than ever before. And am wondering how. Was it not under the student teacher rule?
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Just putting it out there after years of not having it, my Keitō has finally acquired such. Through Athos and signing his own contract of secrecy. I personally am interested in all these 'researchers' of the technique as well. I was denied countless times during my countless travels in the shinobi world, only to gain it literally 3 years later. I thought it was up in the books with Edo Tensei and the like. Not just everyone who wants it gets it. I sure as hell ain't giving it up for nothin'. >>;
I'm in the mile high club, ma! :D
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How many people claim the power of Hiraishin now? I've seen more people claim to have it than ever before. And am wondering how. Was it not under the student teacher rule?
Are you counting knock-offs of hiraishin?
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Wouldn't swing it much even if he did, cause at least I outside of myself know only one or two at most.
'Researchers' who got bored of the possessers not wanting to teach are far more numerous.
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Wouldn't swing it much even if he did, cause at least I outside of myself know only one or two at most.
'Researchers' who got bored of the possessers not wanting to teach are far more numerous.
He makes mention of the student-teacher rule is why I am asking, since knock-offs generally have to be somewhat based on the original in one way or another. Either through research or being taught a few principles.
To think that I could have had hiraishin had I exchange a few Nara clan secrets for it. And to think how much of a rip-off that would have been since I could just shadow imitate it. ^_^
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Well Ichi and his sister claimed it, Sabumaru claims it and Hono and his peeps are now 'researching it' and well it's to the point of investigation. It's supposed to be 1 to 1. 1 teacher to one student and the student nor teacher can teach it to another until the student of teacher dies, no?
I'm not talking about any knock offs either. What spiked my wanting to know at fist was looking at Hono's profile and seeing such a thing there. Also Eric he claims to have mimicked our Nara clan jutsu. Don't know if that's out of bounds or what, you know more than me about that.
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Its a yin type hiden so theoretically you can learn it as non-nara, or then just imitate. Where he learned it from or how though is another matter.
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That's the main issue I am having here. Where and how. You can't just go hmmmmm I want it and auto learn it.
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I learned it through reverse engineering from a Kunai Dark left stuck in a target post in Sunagakure. I am a seal master in my own right.
This was of course before the world decided to jump stiff legged over who could and who could not have things...
Am not going to comply with the boy only club rule of thumb.
And have mentioned this the last time this topic was broached on the forum.
To date I have used it in RP one time.
You don't seem to have a want to use it and this is the first time I've heard of you knowing it nor do you want to claim to teach anyone it. As far as I'm concerned (not that I make the calls or anything) you're fine to me.
Other people however are not as humble as you.
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Well Ichi and his sister claimed it, Sabumaru claims it and Hono and his peeps are now 'researching it' and well it's to the point of investigation. It's supposed to be 1 to 1. 1 teacher to one student and the student nor teacher can teach it to another until the student of teacher dies, no?
I'm not talking about any knock offs either. What spiked my wanting to know at fist was looking at Hono's profile and seeing such a thing there. Also Eric he claims to have mimicked our Nara clan jutsu. Don't know if that's out of bounds or what, you know more than me about that.
1) You take Hono super seriously? Alright, let me put it in that frame of reference then.
2) I am sure I can dig through these threads and find a discussion regarding Hono and hiraishin, the result of it likely being that he did not have it at the time of discussing. Whether that's changed now or what is beyond me at the moment.
3)And what is this "our" stuff? Shadow, I didn't know you were a Nara. :eek: It's like Sasuke finding Obito in a closet next to Madara after the Uchiha clan massacre.
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Well Ichi and his sister claimed it, Sabumaru claims it and Hono and his peeps are now 'researching it' and well it's to the point of investigation. It's supposed to be 1 to 1. 1 teacher to one student and the student nor teacher can teach it to another until the student of teacher dies, no?
I'm not talking about any knock offs either. What spiked my wanting to know at fist was looking at Hono's profile and seeing such a thing there. Also Eric he claims to have mimicked our Nara clan jutsu. Don't know if that's out of bounds or what, you know more than me about that.
1) You take Hono super seriously? Alright, let me put it in that frame of reference then.
2) I am sure I can dig through these threads and find a discussion regarding Hono and hiraishin, the result of it likely being that he did not have it at the time of discussing. Whether that's changed now or what is beyond me at the moment.
3)And what is this "our" stuff? Shadow, I didn't know you were a Nara. :eek: It's like Sasuke finding Obito in a closet next to Madara after the Uchiha clan massacre.
I take Hono as serious as people took grenada serious. None. The fact is that even though he has this attitude about him he still tries to mainstream rp which is where the issue piles up.
I do not claim to be of the Nara clan, but the Nara clan techniques I have for many many years. Also I love that example. <3
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Well Ichi and his sister claimed it, Sabumaru claims it and Hono and his peeps are now 'researching it' and well it's to the point of investigation. It's supposed to be 1 to 1. 1 teacher to one student and the student nor teacher can teach it to another until the student of teacher dies, no?
I'm not talking about any knock offs either. What spiked my wanting to know at fist was looking at Hono's profile and seeing such a thing there. Also Eric he claims to have mimicked our Nara clan jutsu. Don't know if that's out of bounds or what, you know more than me about that.
1) You take Hono super seriously? Alright, let me put it in that frame of reference then.
2) I am sure I can dig through these threads and find a discussion regarding Hono and hiraishin, the result of it likely being that he did not have it at the time of discussing. Whether that's changed now or what is beyond me at the moment.
3)And what is this "our" stuff? Shadow, I didn't know you were a Nara. :eek: It's like Sasuke finding Obito in a closet next to Madara after the Uchiha clan massacre.
I take Hono as serious as people took grenada serious. None. The fact is that even though he has this attitude about him he still tries to mainstream rp which is where the issue piles up.
I do not claim to be of the Nara clan, but the Nara clan techniques I have for many many years. Also I love that example. <3
Another Kirk when it comes to shadow imitation I see. My clan is already scarce enough without le pirates and estranged relatives. :( As long as he doesn't try to claim that he imitated my custom shadow imitation techniques without even seeing them (and even if he has seen them really), there is no reason for me to be concerned enough to start a witchhunt.
Regarding hiraishin, I highly doubt he has a legitimate claim to it. Albeit, as Kayenta put it, depending on who he RPs with, I suppose it would be a matter of acknowledgement rather than the facts of the matter.
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Hopefully I can clear up a few things.
I got Hiraishin from Bocchiere, and as for the '1 for 1' rule, that was never established. Aaron has always had more than one student, or he does now, at least. Or did. Aaron's scroll makes it so the knowledge cannot be taught, stolen, or anything like that.
Bocchiere learned from Tommi years ago. When that happened, he was able to teach whoever he wanted. During that time, he didn't make it so people who learned from him couldn't teach, or he did so right after teaching me, because I clarified I was going to make my own scroll and teach others.
That being said, I DO follow the only one student rule and have a scroll that works like Aaron. No one can teach it or have it stolen from their heads when signing my scroll and learning it. I have taught Keito and my other alt, Hazama, was taught it by Bocchiere as well and I don't intend to teach it to anyone from him.
As for Tokujiro, Masane, and Ichirou, that happened because of Tsuyo. When Tsuyo learned everything Bocch did, he gained the ability to teach people. Tokujiro was taught directly by Tsuyo, I am pretty sure, and Masane and Ichirou learned from... I don't recall, but from Tsuyo's stuff or his training, one of the two.
As for everyone else, well, I haven't the slightest. I hope this helps a bit.
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I got it straight from Dark several months back.
As for Hono researching it, I am under the impression he wants to learn it from Kamui who just bought it from Bocc. I think the researching thing in his bio is just something to have around stating that he is going for it. Though if simply researching it gets you FTG now, then I guess he is in the clear.
As for the Nara clan stuff, the hiden itself cannot be claimed, but the custom stuff can. So if he goes around claiming space time shadows then call him out. Until then let him live his life.
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So what happens when all these 'owners' of techniques up and leave the site? Does that mean that the skills are just floating around in cyber-space out of everybody's reach? Where's the fun in that when you try to do something and someone you've never met before says 'nuh-uh! No stealsies'. Just let people learn the skills they want to learn through RP if they want. As long as they're not doing that lonely thing and making post after post after post just with themselves, it should be fine if they come up with or discover a way to use a jutsu. Just do it with a friend. Or a stranger, turn them into a friend.
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So what happens when all these 'owners' of techniques up and leave the site? Does that mean that the skills are just floating around in cyber-space out of everybody's reach? Where's the fun in that when you try to do something and someone you've never met before says 'nuh-uh! No stealsies'. Just let people learn the skills they want to learn through RP if they want. As long as they're not doing that lonely thing and making post after post after post just with themselves, it should be fine if they come up with or discover a way to use a jutsu. Just do it with a friend. Or a stranger, turn them into a friend.
Custom techs that they made would be out of everyone's reach. Those are truly unobtainable if they didn't teach anyone. Canon ones are always going to be passed down. No one with a canon tech keeps it to themselves.
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Hopefully I can clear up a few things.
I got Hiraishin from Bocchiere, and as for the '1 for 1' rule, that was never established. Aaron has always had more than one student, or he does now, at least. Or did. Aaron's scroll makes it so the knowledge cannot be taught, stolen, or anything like that.
Bocchiere learned from Tommi years ago. When that happened, he was able to teach whoever he wanted. During that time, he didn't make it so people who learned from him couldn't teach, or he did so right after teaching me, because I clarified I was going to make my own scroll and teach others.
That being said, I DO follow the only one student rule and have a scroll that works like Aaron. No one can teach it or have it stolen from their heads when signing my scroll and learning it. I have taught Keito and my other alt, Hazama, was taught it by Bocchiere as well and I don't intend to teach it to anyone from him.
As for Tokujiro, Masane, and Ichirou, that happened because of Tsuyo. When Tsuyo learned everything Bocch did, he gained the ability to teach people. Tokujiro was taught directly by Tsuyo, I am pretty sure, and Masane and Ichirou learned from... I don't recall, but from Tsuyo's stuff or his training, one of the two.
As for everyone else, well, I haven't the slightest. I hope this helps a bit.
Ichirou was taught by Bocc just in time for my second biju match against him.
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Hopefully I can clear up a few things.
I got Hiraishin from Bocchiere, and as for the '1 for 1' rule, that was never established. Aaron has always had more than one student, or he does now, at least. Or did. Aaron's scroll makes it so the knowledge cannot be taught, stolen, or anything like that.
Bocchiere learned from Tommi years ago. When that happened, he was able to teach whoever he wanted. During that time, he didn't make it so people who learned from him couldn't teach, or he did so right after teaching me, because I clarified I was going to make my own scroll and teach others.
That being said, I DO follow the only one student rule and have a scroll that works like Aaron. No one can teach it or have it stolen from their heads when signing my scroll and learning it. I have taught Keito and my other alt, Hazama, was taught it by Bocchiere as well and I don't intend to teach it to anyone from him.
As for Tokujiro, Masane, and Ichirou, that happened because of Tsuyo. When Tsuyo learned everything Bocch did, he gained the ability to teach people. Tokujiro was taught directly by Tsuyo, I am pretty sure, and Masane and Ichirou learned from... I don't recall, but from Tsuyo's stuff or his training, one of the two.
As for everyone else, well, I haven't the slightest. I hope this helps a bit.
Ichirou was taught by Bocc just in time for my second biju match against him.
Pretty sure Tetsuo did.
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My character also reverse engineered it after getting his hands on one of the seals people used to leave around back when it was newer and they liked to show off xD
Not that he'll ever use it, he just used it's concept to create custom space-time whatnot cuz that's what he does.
I am wary of how many people claim to be capable of researching such things though. It's something my character has done IC for RL years but it seems so many people can just just research these things with little explanation. /shrug
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I got it from Bocchiere before he quit
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This reverse engineering is seeming more BS to me. 'Decoding' the seal doesn't automatically grant you the ability to use the jutsu in my opinion let alone if you could decode it. What info are you going on that allows you to pick apart the seal? Each Hiraishin seal is unique to the user. Of course there would be similarities for the teleport part, but all else would differ as said. As far as I know the secrets are kept to the users and no one has rp'ed giving the general knowledge of breaking down the seal.
And for those 'seal' masters out there who broke it down. I once again ask what info are you going off of? I don't imagine there's a book you all use to decode it.
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I got it from Bocchiere before he quit
I got it after I bought most of his accounts, including Kyuubi. (However I incorporated some public RP, prior to the claims of it) :oops:
Edit: Listen to the guy below me. :oops:
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This reverse engineering is seeming more BS to me. 'Decoding' the seal doesn't automatically grant you the ability to use the jutsu in my opinion let alone if you could decode it. What info are you going on that allows you to pick apart the seal? Each Hiraishin seal is unique to the user. Of course there would be similarities for the teleport part, but all else would differ as said. As far as I know the secrets are kept to the users and no one has rp'ed giving the general knowledge of breaking down the seal.
And for those 'seal' masters out there who broke it down. I once again ask what info are you going off of? I don't imagine there's a book you all use to decode it.
Tl;Dr: The answer is literally in the technique, or in the case of hiraishin, in the technique formula.
Well, although it is never really explained in the series, Minato got hiraishin no jutsu from somewhere. The 2nd Hokage created the technique, and Minato was definitely not old enough to have learned directly from him, so unless there were a lineage of hiraishin users that never got introduced, Minato either learned it from a scroll or reverse engineered it.
Hiraishin is the same jutsu almost no matter who uses it. The differences between the technique formulas would either be to different dimenional voids (in line with the different pocket dimenison of Kamui line of thinking) or simply because, like writing a piece of code, each iteration of hiraishin follows a basic formula, but structures it slightly differently.
When decoding/decrypting a technique formula of any type, be it fuinjutsu or otherwise, the key is that the derived technique is either the original technique (including original formula) or a modified version based off of the original technique. Techniques similar to it can be invented without the original code, but that's not reverse engineering, that's just coming up with a different way to do the same thing without having a sample to work with, which would likely take longer than just borrowing someone else's code.
A space-time ninjutsu has to have a few basic principles in the narutoveres to make it function:
1) How does it teleport the user from place to place?
2) How does it determine the area of effect?
3) How fast does it move the user, and does this have any detrimental effects on the user?
4) What is the mode of inscription (seals) if any for the technique?
5) Is the technique a two-way streak, in that one can go to and from the different dimension that may or may not serve as a medium between teleportation.
In a technique formula where all the user has to do is think (literally, at will people put forth) most of this information has to be found in the technique formula, or otherwise has to be formed by the user manually.
Take these two examples:
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Thunder_Formation_Technique
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Thunder_God_Technique
The former demonstrates the use of handseals and a specific formation in combination with the marker on Tsunade. The hiraishin mark on her serves as the desstination, while the formation serves as the area of effect (more likely than not, Tsunade could also be brought to the platoon via this jutsu, but I'm not sure).
The latter is literally think and it is done.
In the case of Kamui, all of this information would be stored in the eye. Hence, "decoding" Kamui is next to impossible unless you start becoming a biological genius who can decrypt cell information as if it were the written word, and even then, you would need a living sample in order to observe its function from start to finish for the most accurate record keeping purposes.
For those who do not use hiraishin directly to decode, it is a matter of speculation. The summoning jutsu, if it were condenesd into a technique formula (as my Jounin Exams fight presented) can be a knock-off hiraishin that, with some tweaks, could rival it presuming knowledge of will-activated technique formulas is known to the user.
Shadow Migration and Flying Shadow, two of my custom techniques, all started with the Shadow hell technique. By finding a way to go to and from the shadow dimension, the gate of shadows turned into shadow migration. By directly connecting the shadow gates and using the shadow dimension only as a temporary medium or void, Flying Shadow was born, though to keep it from being literally shadow imitation hiraishin, a handseal is required in order to perform it, since unlike hiraishin I would normally have the option of just staying in the alternate dimension.
At will I can use shadow migration in conjunction with shadow seals, but using flying shadow requires a handseal, ICwise, because not only must the user be sucked into the shadow, but they must also appear at their destination considerably faster than they normally would, adding a degree of complexity to the technique than was already present.
I hope that cleared some things up for you Shadow, or at least jogged your brain.
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Koji got this skill from Kirk after getting permission from Dark.
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Learned mine from Dark about 4 years ago.
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So, why is this an issue? Ignore all the unlegitimate users who 'researched' it aside from the ones like Kayenta wo've done it a long, long time ago. As for the people who were taught it or stole it, then kill them? It ain't that hard. There are a lot more users then there were before, but if it really bothers anyone that much then hunt the people that you think shouldn't have it.
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So, why is this an issue? Ignore all the unlegitimate users who 'researched' it aside from the ones like Kayenta wo've done it a long, long time ago. As for the people who were taught it or stole it, then kill them? It ain't that hard. There are a lot more users then there were before, but if it really bothers anyone that much then hunt the people that you think shouldn't have it.
Sounds like a good idea. Hell, I'd like it if I had someone who was stalking me for the sake of attacking me. When I first started this website, I picked a target and stalked and harassed them. Had a blast. And why is everyone getting so upset over this one technique? There's loads of other techniques that don't involve 'teleports behind you and stab you with my katana'.
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And why is everyone getting so upset over this one technique? There's loads of other techniques that don't involve 'teleports behind you and stab you with my katana'.
Cuz it allows people to use a get out of jail free card in fights essentially.
"Oh did I get cornered? Guess I'll just Hiraishin over there and avoid it." Granted there are rules against spamming it, but considering peoples general negative attitude towards substitution techniques (which in this case it's sort of a fancy version of one) it's funny how many people want it.
And I personally believe that if people wanted the technique to be kept so secret they shouldn't have left the seals all over the place back in the day xD It was only a matter of time before people started to reverse-engineer it. Kyu did it a hella long time ago but I don't lay any official 'claims' cuz I have no interest in the drama involved in that for a technique I have no interest in actually using. I just enjoy collecting RP knowledge and applying it to different uses.
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By all accounts, Tommi was the first to claim such a skill so there. His character was Minato.
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By all accounts, Tommi was the first to claim such a skill so there. His character was Minato.
I wasn't here when the technique was first introduced to the series and SL, but I highly doubt that he was the very first to claim it ever. He did however practically make a "Minato" character for all intensive purposes, and was probably one of the last of those types around here unless you count Bocchiere - Hidan (but there are so few similarities between the two).
... I want to do away with all this nonsense and just have fun. I am tired of being the potty patrol trying to get the dog outside before he wee's on my rug. You know?
I think trying to keep the dog from going on the rug is a worthy investment, if you want to keep the dog and the carpet that is. In a similar strain, I think it's a worthy cause keeping the number of hiraishin users in relative check, much akin to how Edo is regulated (and I haven't seen too many carbon copies as of late). But that's just me.
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My thought on this is, you can't deny the human eye of what it saw. I feel if you want to decode the unique marking, it would be acustom to whom ever you got it from; not really knowing Hirashin, but that specific users version of how it worked. Nevertheless, studying and decoding would take a long time. So, of course, if this was a attained a long time ago, given Tommi hasn't been around for a while. There could be augmented seals made from the various kunai he left around. If you study something long enough you're are bound to know it. Although, said person must already have extensive knowledge in seals and how to decode them to begin with; which is a highly experienced art to begin with in the sealing aspect.
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So, why is this an issue? Ignore all the unlegitimate users who 'researched' it aside from the ones like Kayenta wo've done it a long, long time ago. As for the people who were taught it or stole it, then kill them? It ain't that hard. There are a lot more users then there were before, but if it really bothers anyone that much then hunt the people that you think shouldn't have it.
Roughing it rather amusing to be hunted. Hell I might would even throw in my custom stuff.
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Me no claim because me no have. I can only claim Rasengan by RP.
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Although Flying Thunder God Technique involves a special seal or "technique formula" to mark an intended destination, it may not be as easy most of you think to "reverse-engineer" it.
Flying Thunder Formation Technique http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Thunder_Formation_Technique
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy1NSfcJkWE (Go to 9:55)
Not even 3 elite shinobis who guard the Hokage can learn the FTG tech and they had Minato teaching them. So if they cannot learn this skill with Minato as the teacher, what are odds one can even learn through reverse-engineering? >.>
Claiming to learn something that cannot be learned. v.v
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Reverse engineering doesn't necessarily mean an exact replica. Can be a mimicry too.
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Well what if reverse engineering had some sort of Adverse side effect? Possibly slower teleportation time, or user strain, or cool down time, or something.
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Although Flying Thunder God Technique involves a special seal or "technique formula" to mark an intended destination, it may not be as easy most of you think to "reverse-engineer" it.
Flying Thunder Formation Technique http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Thunder_Formation_Technique
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy1NSfcJkWE (Go to 9:55)
Not even 3 elite shinobis who guard the Hokage can learn the FTG tech and they had Minato teaching them. So if they cannot learn this skill with Minato as the teacher, what are odds one can even learn through reverse-engineering? >.>
Claiming to learn something that cannot be learned. v.v
It's also entirely possible that most people don't have a natural speed high enough to justify using it in battle as well, as Minato was said to be quite speedy without hiraishin.
As well, how many characters besides Orochimaru that might actually be the type (and smart enough) to be able to reverse engineer something so complicated. Canon characters didn't spend their time doing research like that. If an SL character is an engineer/experimenter and has enough experience with seals I don't see why it WOULDN'T be reverse engineerable other than "Hey but it's like REALLY hard to do, man."
But I do prolly agree that it's not likely so many people on SL would have the ability to decipher the jutsu considering how much knowledge you'd have to have of seals (and just being an Uzumaki doesn't really give you a shortcut on knowledge, contrary to what I've seen people doing here.)
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Although Flying Thunder God Technique involves a special seal or "technique formula" to mark an intended destination, it may not be as easy most of you think to "reverse-engineer" it.
Flying Thunder Formation Technique http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Flying_Thunder_Formation_Technique
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy1NSfcJkWE (Go to 9:55)
Not even 3 elite shinobis who guard the Hokage can learn the FTG tech and they had Minato teaching them. So if they cannot learn this skill with Minato as the teacher, what are odds one can even learn through reverse-engineering? >.>
Claiming to learn something that cannot be learned. v.v
Minato taught them specifically that technique for a reason; he didn't want them having the original. Secondly, the 2nd Hokage created hiraishin and, to our knowledge, did not really "pass it down", and even if he had, Minato had to have learned it one way or another, either by reverse engineering it, "borrowing" it, re-engineering it from notes left behind (or otherwise), or being directly taught by an unknown user. There are two users in the entire canon-verse who know the technique in its entirety.
The Hokage Platoon Guard either learned a technique derived from hiraishin or a technique related to hiraishin. Either which way is the case, canon-wise, without the natural speed, reflexes, sensory ability, and chakra control to properly execute the technique, hiraishin is nigh imposssible to use on a level that would allow one to use it to its full extent. Tobirama's seal, when looking at it, really resembles a tag-based seal that eventually evolved into Minato's version of the seal with what resembles actual characters of a written language.
I have always considered it an advanced reverse summoning technique of sorts that is a little more literal and greatly refined, in that you summon yourself to a person/object rather than bringing them to you, though we know that hiraishin works both ways.
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Well the Wiki for Minato says that he is better at Hiraishin than Tobirama
Minato's signature ability was the Flying Thunder God Technique, which he'd gained a mastery of superior to its creator, the Second Hokage.[47]
But it never says anywhere that the Second Hokage taught it to him, so did he reverse engineer it?
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Years ago, everyone feared wikis for the illegitimacy. But that dwindled down with moderation and acceptance of generally agreed ideals. Either way, no one should take the Wiki seriously at 'face value'.
Obviously we know as readers and viewers of the series; after Tobirama's reign, Sarutobi stepped in and then Minato. My thought is because they were both Hokage's, Minato might have had access to Tobirama's past files, documents, whatever. He inherited the rank and job Tobirama once held. So maybe through undisclosed doors and events, Minato himself practicioned and fiddled with Tobirama's fuinjutsu. (Albeit Minato himself, has shown a great deal of knowledge in Fuinjutsu, as well as his relation with the Uzumaki's the sealing experts themselves.)
Either way, it could indeed be possible that Minato pirated Tobirama's creation; which is why we have the two custom tags they have. Or he could have just learned it from Tobi, we will honestly and probably never know. But I do like the idea that over years, Minato had replicated the seal in his own method. Still making it Hirashin, although different from Tobirama's. This is what makes each hirashin user's marker different, since we don't exactly know just what the original user has composed into his own seal. Given that Minato couldn't hack into Tobirama's old networks.
Then again this whole reverse engineering thing could get out of hand. Where would it end? What will be the point of the originals? And their secrecy. The list could be endless with 'reverse engineering' a technique. Although, it doesn't have to be out of the question. If by legitimate RP means, your character has come across a way to gain a technique through experimenting and researching; over a lengthy time, then so be it. These teachings shouldn't become instant and should indeed be an over time sorta dealio.
Also just putting this out there since it was mentioned. Being an Uzumaki doesn't make you a sealing expert, but having the blood of an Uzumaki allows you a more advanced knowledge and chakra supply to preform above average seals; simply from my own observation(Nagato/Karin weren't some sorta sealing masters). It is only when you further enhance such ability YOURSELF that you can become an Uzumaki 'sealing expert'. I take pride in my blood and don't wish to see it tainted by you power hungry monsters. >__>'
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I'm pretty certain that the Second and Forth Hokage's were alive at the same time. So it is possible he taught him. I don't know why so many people want to deny that so hard.
It is possible. I'll have to look and dig into it but I have always viewed it as such. We know that oro, te Fifth, and Pervy Sage where around when the Firat was. When don't know how old they were wen he died and the second took over. I think the Second held the title for sometime after what not just a short short time.
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Minato taught them specifically that technique for a reason; he didn't want them having the original. Secondly, the 2nd Hokage created hiraishin and, to our knowledge, did not really "pass it down", and even if he had, Minato had to have learned it one way or another, either by reverse engineering it, "borrowing" it, re-engineering it from notes left behind (or otherwise), or being directly taught by an unknown user. There are two users in the entire canon-verse who know the technique in its entirety.
The Hokage Platoon Guard either learned a technique derived from hiraishin or a technique related to hiraishin. Either which way is the case, canon-wise, without the natural speed, reflexes, sensory ability, and chakra control to properly execute the technique, hiraishin is nigh imposssible to use on a level that would allow one to use it to its full extent. Tobirama's seal, when looking at it, really resembles a tag-based seal that eventually evolved into Minato's version of the seal with what resembles actual characters of a written language.
I have always considered it an advanced reverse summoning technique of sorts that is a little more literal and greatly refined, in that you summon yourself to a person/object rather than bringing them to you, though we know that hiraishin works both ways.
Eric...did you watch the youtube video? They said it themselves.
Here's more proof for you: http://animerulezzz.org/?ttl=Manga%20Online:%20Naruto%20-%20Volume%2059%20-%20Chapter%20562%20-%20The%20Place%20to%20Find%20Yourself%20-%20Page%2016&t=MangaReader/view_read&aid=25&attl=Naruto+-+Volume+59+-+Chapter+562+-+The+Place+to+Find+Yourself&p=16&lang=en (http://animerulezzz.org/?ttl=Manga%20Online:%20Naruto%20-%20Volume%2059%20-%20Chapter%20562%20-%20The%20Place%20to%20Find%20Yourself%20-%20Page%2016&t=MangaReader/view_read&aid=25&attl=Naruto+-+Volume+59+-+Chapter+562+-+The+Place+to+Find+Yourself&p=16&lang=en)
In regards to how Minato learned the Flying Thunder God, I believe there is evidence that Tobirama DID NOT teach Minato FTG. Unfortunately, I cannot find a good site to search through the chapters to verify. However, we have been told time and time again of Minato's genius. There's always exception to the rule and he was the exception.
Also just putting this out there since it was mentioned. Being an Uzumaki doesn't make you a sealing expert, but having the blood of an Uzumaki allows you a more advanced knowledge and chakra supply to preform above average seals; simply from my own observation(Nagato/Karin weren't some sorta sealing masters). It is only when you further enhance such ability YOURSELF that you can become an Uzumaki 'sealing expert'. I take pride in my blood and don't wish to see it tainted by you power hungry monsters. >__>'
I disagree. Having the blood of an Uzumaki Clan does allows you a strong life force / longevity, which can translate into a large chakra supply. Considering we only know one member who was adept at seals while Naruto cannot perform a basic string of hand-seals to save his life, having the blood has nothing to do with gaining sealing prowess or have an aptitude in sealing. >.>
His mom is a sealing expert and his dad is a genius, but Naruto's hand-seal knowledge has been ranked 1 out of 5 for most of the series. >.>
In regards to the reverse-engineering, everyone is free to do whatever you want. Most of the people that claim FTG are using it wrong anyway. As it was stated earlier, the majority are using it as a free "get out of jail" card. This jutsu is mostly used to go on the offensive, not to flee away from your opponent. >.>
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Isn't it just that Minato learned it from a scroll, I mean Naruto learned a Kinjustu from a scroll so it wouldn't be surprising if Minato did the same with Hiraishin. The same question could also be asked about how Orochimaru learned Edo Tensei, unless this was already stated.
Reverse engineering also seems like a cheap way to learn the technique since from what is seen, every user has a different seal. Assuming the seal is made by the user himself, it should be almost impossible to decipher the jutsu formula from just the seal itself.
"Minato was noted by Jiraiya to be one of the most talented shinobi who ever lived, a calibre that has yet to be met by anyone else.[8]"
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I'm pretty certain that the Second and Forth Hokage's were alive at the same time. So it is possible he taught him. I don't know why so many people want to deny that so hard...
Because the 2nd Hokage died during the 1st Great Shinobi war while Hiruzen was still an adolescent. This was before he started training kid Sannin, and waaaay before kid Minato was trained by Jiraiya. Let's not also forget that Tobirama did not recognize Minato when the four were reincarnated together, so speculation aside, it is impossible for the 2nd to have directly taught Minato the technique.
Minato taught them specifically that technique for a reason; he didn't want them having the original. Secondly, the 2nd Hokage created hiraishin and, to our knowledge, did not really "pass it down", and even if he had, Minato had to have learned it one way or another, either by reverse engineering it, "borrowing" it, re-engineering it from notes left behind (or otherwise), or being directly taught by an unknown user. There are two users in the entire canon-verse who know the technique in its entirety.
The Hokage Platoon Guard either learned a technique derived from hiraishin or a technique related to hiraishin. Either which way is the case, canon-wise, without the natural speed, reflexes, sensory ability, and chakra control to properly execute the technique, hiraishin is nigh imposssible to use on a level that would allow one to use it to its full extent. Tobirama's seal, when looking at it, really resembles a tag-based seal that eventually evolved into Minato's version of the seal with what resembles actual characters of a written language.
I have always considered it an advanced reverse summoning technique of sorts that is a little more literal and greatly refined, in that you summon yourself to a person/object rather than bringing them to you, though we know that hiraishin works both ways.
Eric...did you watch the youtube video? They said it themselves...
The only thing that the youtube video and the chapter:
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/562/12
really thumped hard regarding my post was that they claim to have been explicitly taught by Minato the flying thunder god technique. And for saying otherwise, I admit that I was wrong on that measure.
The only explanation that I have for that is that hiraishin may require a level of chakra control that the trio individually did not possess. Otherwise, why else would it require three users to coordinate and do what is nothing short of a collaboration techinque in order to perform a technique that can otherwise be done by two other individuals with far fewer handsigns and without the aide of two others. Having marked Tsunade after her ascension, we can presume that they know how to make the seal, or at least had access to it.
This, however, does not change the detail that many SL reverse engineers of fuinjutsu not only have considerable chakra control, but also tend to also take the strongest of the viable fractions when picking up stuff from the series, and so would likely not be limited in the same fashion as the Platoon.
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It's still somewhat vague how Minato got Tobirama's stuff. But let's get back a bigger issue that has been brought up here.
Being able to "duplicate", "recreate" or "replicate" a jutsu. By this, I mean figure out how a claimed or custom jutsu works without being taught it, in ways other than replicating the hand seals, mind-reading or reading a technique scroll. But to be more specific, learning a jutsu just by looking at it over and over again. It might sound crazy to some of you, but at the same time, it presents a risk to these special jutsu. Though in regards to claimed jutsu, it should only be possible if everyone who has a certain jutsu claimed either drops it, or has to let go of it automatically if they're inactive for a very long time, or dead.
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I'm responding late to this as I was never notified.
There have long been rules in place that the Hiraishin cannot be replicated or copied on this website in particular to prevent it from being spread thin. This was to protect it from everyone and their uncles owning the skill; it's long been accepted.
Hiraishin cannot be copied on Shinobi Legends; that's the precedent. The decision was that it was a seal that couldn't be reverse-engineered; that it was acceptable in this case due to the potential dangers Hiraishin has.
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I'm responding late to this as I was never notified.
There have long been rules in place that the Hiraishin cannot be replicated or copied on this website in particular to prevent it from being spread thin. This was to protect it from everyone and their uncles owning the skill; it's long been accepted.
Hiraishin cannot be copied on Shinobi Legends; that's the precedent. The decision was that it was a seal that couldn't be reverse-engineered; that it was acceptable in this case due to the potential dangers Hiraishin has.
You really need to update those rules since after going back and reading about this rule, it dawned on me that this actually applies to roleplayers from SLS. (It even states SLS-verse and vice-versa)
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I'm going to start reverse engineering EVERY single thing I can. How? Cause I'm a master at seals yo.
That's what some of you sound to me. Do you not see the problem with that cause I sure as hell do. Actually I am right now claiming Edo Tensei through that same method. I reversed engineered it and such. So now I know how to use it.
It shouldn't be allowed or as my example up there shows I could just pick and learn what I want from reversing it.
Dead Consuming Seal. - I'm not even Uzumaki and I'm going to now know how to use it.
Six Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal. - Seal in it's name oh hell yeah gonna grab that.
Of course I'm exaggerating here. But you CANT use such thinking to attain something.
(I'm tired so my logical thinking here might be faulty)
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I'm going to start reverse engineering EVERY single thing I can. How? Cause I'm a master at seals yo.
That's what some of you sound to me. Do you not see the problem with that cause I sure as hell do. Actually I am right now claiming Edo Tensei through that same method. I reversed engineered it and such. So now I know how to use it.
It shouldn't be allowed or as my example up there shows I could just pick and learn what I want from reversing it.
Dead Consuming Seal. - I'm not even Uzumaki and I'm going to now know how to use it.
Six Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal. - Seal in it's name oh hell yeah gonna grab that.
Of course I'm exaggerating here. But you CANT use such thinking to attain something.
(I'm tired so my logical thinking here might be faulty)
In the case of Edo Tensei, you would need to have access to, at the bare minimum, an Edo Tensei body, and be capable of looking at the technique formula that controls the zombie. Even then, you would need direct access to the main scroll in order to have enough information to truly reverse engineer it. Otherwise, you might can make an inspiration knock-off, but actual reverse engineering of Edo Tensei itself would be much more ridiculous to claim than reverse engineerring hiraishin.
As far as teh Dead Consuming Seal goes, since using it kills the user, it is used very infrequently; unless the Uzumaki leave scrolls of it laying around where you can grab them (kind of like in the series eh?) it would be unlikely that you have actually seen the technique enough times let alone once to be able to truly reverse engineer it. The seal itself is based on the eight trigrams, so while from that you might could decipher the eight trigrams, I'm skeptical that summoning the Shinigami (without adding some SL-verse stuff) would be a stretch from just analyzing the seal. Copying the handsigns and chakra manipulation plus having access to the seal might would do it though.
There are actually special chakra requirements for Six Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal, so that would hinder its reverse engineerability considerably. But then again, I haven't looked up that technique in awhile so the specifics on it are kind of lost on me for taking a swing at that example.
What makes hiraishin so special is that it does not require any handsigns to create nor to use, and does not harm the user upon usage. Since the seals are typically not all that well protected by the average user, gaining access to one of them is not a once in a lifetime opportunity. It is also specifically designated as using a technique formula, so most if not all of the information regarding the intricicies of the technique can likely be found in each hiraishin seal. Conversely, all that could be in it is the users' chakra and nothing more, but I find that unlikely.
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Eric I'm not saying it's impossible so much as it shouldn't be allowed.
If it is allowed then like I said people will find other loopholes to use to steal things they were never taught.
Hell how would you even rp it?
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Well I've gone out of my way to visit the canon landmarks and strip away any essential items 'left behind' and ultimately devised a scroll that would contain secrets and ins and outs of the Uzumaki-way. Its open only to Uzumaki's or those possibly worthy of learning them(none yet to date) and is kept hiden away from the world until necessary means are taken to retrieve it. Other than that I can physically pass on sacred hiden teachings without problems, so long as you aren't some wanna-be that just joins for the techniques. Although, Shinigami relations are on a whole other level, I don't think any are ready to handle his cynical ways. >>;
But I feel if there is a character that literally threw his/her hirashin markers left and right everywhere that wasn't a battle field, it could get researched. I think of the hirashin SEAL as some foreign language when it comes to seals. It surely is the same basic functions as a sealing technique but it is composed in a way to bend space and time, making it rather foreign to most normal methods of sealing. So in that respect, if a character was able to physical hold the sealing formula; over years of research they would indeed know how to replicate that exact formula. Its like saying, reading something over and over again wont get stuck in your head. If thats the case who would read anything. >>;
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Well I've gone out of my way to visit the canon landmarks and strip away any essential items 'left behind' and ultimately devised a scroll that would contain secrets and ins and outs of the Uzumaki-way. Its open only to Uzumaki's or those possibly worthy of learning them(none yet to date) and is kept hiden away from the world until necessary means are taken to retrieve it. Other than that I can physically pass on sacred hiden teachings without problems, so long as you aren't some wanna-be that just joins for the techniques. Although, Shinigami relations are on a whole other level, I don't think any are ready to handle his cynical ways. >>;
But I feel if there is a character that literally threw his/her hirashin markers left and right everywhere that wasn't a battle field, it could get researched. I think of the hirashin SEAL as some foreign language when it comes to seals. It surely is the same basic functions as a sealing technique but it is composed in a way to bend space and time, making it rather foreign to most normal methods of sealing. So in that respect, if a character was able to physical hold the sealing formula; over years of research they would indeed know how to replicate that exact formula. Its like saying, reading something over and over again wont get stuck in your head. If thats the case who would read anything. >>;
I'm not saying it can't be done. Cause in truth no one can do it by any scientific means. In Naruto however anything is possible. It shouldn't be allowed.
If people are allowed to reverse one seal then ALL seals are subject to the same thing.
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Researched as in; mad-scientist you spent years of your characters life working on perfecting your own variation of the technique. Not 'less that 2 minutes after encounter with Hiraishin user: researched and devised own hirashin marker from said person'. I'm totally against the ideal of pirating/reverse engineering every technique with such fashion. The series never showed shinobi with such knowledge to know techniques out of their range, unless they were heavy experimenters. i.e Orochimaru, knowing what he knows.