Shinobi Legends Forum
Roleplay => Village Square => Topic started by: Bocchiere on January 14, 2016, 08:44:21 PM
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This came up in my recent fight with Rusaku. He was going to use the wood release Hobi technique, enhanced with bijuu chakra, to block my Daytime Tiger, and I all of a sudden was like, "Wait a second, Mokuton suppresses bijuu chakra, how could you enhance it with something it suppresses?"
The wiki says, "Wood Release has also been coveted by many for to its ability to suppress and control the chakra of a tailed beast and, by proxy, its jinchūriki.[7] Hashirama's necklace, when used in conjunction with his Hokage-Style Sixty-Year-Old Technique — Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-Bringing Hands technique, aided in this, but its exact purpose was unclear."
That makes me think ALL wood release suppresses Bijuu chakra but there are specific techniques to expedite the process.
Trev was our judge for the fight and his decision was basically that is is a logical hypothesis but it cannot be proven so lets continue with the fight, which was fair. So what do we all think about this?
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I could see what you're saying, but at the same time it seems like Mokuton would be used to suppress Biju chakra when it's utilized against a Biju, but since the Biju chakra is being used to fuel the Mokuton techs, I could see where it would make it stronger.
If anything I could see Biju-enhanced Mokuton being better at suppressing outside Biju chakra, but maybe I'm wrong. Just my look on it,
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If you recall from the series, when Naruto first obtains the controlled kyuubi cloak, it was seen having an effect on the wood style technique causing it to spontaneously grow just by standing near it. When Naruto attacks some of the white Zetsus as well, they were overcame by the kyuubi's chakra and would spontaneously sprout into large trees once being slammed into the ground. So, I could see the argument of a tailed beast's chakra enhancing Mokuton, for better or for worse for the tailed beast holder depending on the circumstances if either they are attacking with Mokuton or if they are overcome and being contained by an opponent's Mokuton.
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I don't think that was the bijuu chakra though.
"Naruto's immense life force while in this form causes Wood Release techniques to quickly mature into full-grown trees through close proximity,[6] and White Zetsu to transform into trees upon contact."
Sounds like Uzumaki nonsense.
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It was the ridiculous life force due to it being yang half of kyuubi, yes.
As for beefing up mokuton, there really isn't any way to know since mokuton's implied juubi origins support both possibilities.
If nothing else, for sheer balances sake one could say it can be beefed only with senjutsu or equivalent source (CS or wte), but not beast power due to conflicting natures.
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I was just watching the anime and Madara did use the Divine version of Mokuton but that was in Rikudou sennin mode, still leads me to believe that it can be beefed with Biju chakra though
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Except that was the original version shinju's ability through juubi's power, which is a notable degree different from normal bijuu chakra, so that doesn't really apply for the argument.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall bijuu chakra being able to 'buff up' any kind of ninjutsu. We have seen Naruto use Kyuubi's chakra almost all the time, either when he ran out of his own or when he needed more chakra, and the resultant jutsu isn't any stronger than the regular one. >.>
So far, only Sage Mode (and the like) can enhance your techniques.
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Except his every rasengan, not to mention even simple hakke kuusho from Hinata blew away an entire juubi's tail/arm thing, and Kakashi's kamui was bolstered to the point he could use it without drawbacks as well along with his comment it was around three times stronger than usual or something along those lines.
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Except his every rasengan, not to mention even simple hakke kuusho from Hinata blew away an entire juubi's tail/arm thing, and Kakashi's kamui was bolstered to the point he could use it without drawbacks as well along with his comment it was around three times stronger than usual or something along those lines.
I don't consider the rasengan variants Naruto made in Nine Tails Mode.
The other rasenshuriken variants involved senjutsu.
Kakashi's kamui was bolstered by the amount of chakra he received, ergo rising his limit upon the jutsu.
Same can be said about the Hinata's Hakke Kuusho since it involves releasing chakra.
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Well that's the question then. Is it a misnomer to call it tailed beast chakra and assume it is stronger? Perhaps it is just the fact that they can give people 500% as much chakra as they normally have.
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If more chakra is released with the jutsu is it still considered enhanced?
i.e Sasuke uses 25% chakra for a fireball jutsu vs 75% chakra for a fireball jutsu,
Would the jutsu be considered enhanced? I would think so, but that has nothing do to with my point
All of the tailed beasts are split from the Ten tails chakra, and when the ten tails was put back together it could only be sensed by Naruto in his sage mode, why? Because it's purely Nature energy, right?
That being said that would mean that every Biju is part of the overall Nature Energy that makes up the ten tails, meaning that their Chakra is comparable if not exactly the same as Senjutsu chakra when bonded through a Jinchuriki
Sage mode would be the closest thing a ninja could get to Biju chakra, without having a biju within them.
So I say that Biju chakra enhances, just like Senjutsu chakra enhances.
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I shudder to acknowledge that because then every jinchuriki with sage mode will claim their jutsu are 10 times stronger than yours.
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I'm just saying with how the verse functions it makes sense.
I haven't actually seen anyone do a Biju Sage mode but I dunno. Maybe there should be a rule about it
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Your argument is basically the same as regular rasengan and big ball rasengan.
The only difference between them is that more chakra is added to the big ball rasengan. However, compare that to the ultra-big ball rasengan that involves senjutsu and you'll get your answer.
I personally don't want to get into how 9 bijuus form a creature that's entirely of natural energy. However even if you think each bijuu has some natural energy, we already know that if you don't have enough natural energy, you can't make senjutsu chakra anyway. >.>
Plus, Tailed Beast Ball is labeled as a ninjutsu, not senjutsu.
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...not really an answer. Ultra big ball is again only adding more power, hokage Naruto even surpassed that with ease outside of sage mode, so its not some senjutsu-only magic technique.
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Your argument is basically the same as regular rasengan and big ball rasengan.
The only difference between them is that more chakra is added to the big ball rasengan. However, compare that to the ultra-big ball rasengan that involves senjutsu and you'll get your answer.
I personally don't want to get into how 9 bijuus form a creature that's entirely of natural energy. However even if you think each bijuu has some natural energy, we already know that if you don't have enough natural energy, you can't make senjutsu chakra anyway. >.>
Plus, Tailed Beast Ball is labeled as a ninjutsu, not senjutsu.
I'm saying they're practically the same thing fundamentally, as in stronger versions of chakra that enhance Ninjutsu beyond their regular limits.
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Well I was brought a case that was somewhat similar to this. And from how I see it, Biju Chakra struck me as volatile and corrosive in regards to a chakra's stability. Many of the times its hard to control and even when the biju has willed its way, quite uncontrollable. Of course this is where those Mokuton techniques were created in order to help control and suppress this very volatile chakra.
As to whether or not this volatile chakra enhances a technique beyond extraordinary measures is beyond me. My belief was the biju was added chakra of its own nature, replacing the normal shinobi ones. So in that aspect biju attacks could trump regular shinobi techniques with a balance ration of chakra used per tech. Otherwise, Senjutsu, Biju Chakra, and Chakra itself are all different variations of chakra and are different for specific reasons. Of course the situations and different instances need to be looked into before being able to figure one over the other as they can indeed overlap in strengths. I mean with most people's logic, a big ball rasengan might seem moot if it is being retaliated with a sage/biju powered D rank technique or whatever.
Certain specifications for certain situations is all I'll allow to quote on this matter.
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The way I see it the transformation into a version one state is on par with Sage Mode, excluding the traits/perks gained from the Sage transformation since these are unique to even Senjutsu users. However since no given number is said for the power-ups that are derived from a Tailed Beast, we can only just assume that it as either as strong or not, a bit stronger then Sage Mode. (Lava Release Chakra Mode for example)
Honestly I feel that version two transformation and the Bijū state shouldn't augment their respective kekkei genkai unless it is a nature that is derived from that bijū; like Son Goku for instance.
As for Rasengan? That unique ninjutsu is applicable in any situation and states, since it is ninjutsu that was created from the simple observation of a bijūdama. The amount of chakra or particular chakra nature that it is molded from should be discernible from just simple and plain observation. (No pun intended) Influencing that spiraling orb of chakra with your chakra nature will in a sense, augment the damage along with it and how it will react upon impact will be up to the chakra nature that is infused with it. (Lava burns, Wind pierces and vice versa.)
Now if we are bringing augmentation from either Sage Mode or Bijū Mode into the mix then I would like to point out that we will be pass the previous limitations on the technique and at this point of transformation, their would be no limits to the size and quantity that one may produce with their chakra. (Sage Art: Ultra-Big Ball Lava Release Rasenshruiken. Nuff said.)
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...not really an answer. Ultra big ball is again only adding more power, hokage Naruto even surpassed that with ease outside of sage mode, so its not some senjutsu-only magic technique.
Ultra-big rasengan is a senjutsu and is label as such in the Naruto databook. Only time I saw Naruto made a rasengan of that size was in the Boruto movie when he and Boruto made a Parent/Child rasengan. However one can chalk that up to editing error. Databook trumps all.
@Camel
I dont see how Sage Mode is on par with Version 1 or 2. I can't imagine any of those Jinks being able to stop, let alone lift, a giant rhino. >.>
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How about we just agree you can't beef up mokuton with beast chakra, before this devolves into another sage mode superiority complex debate
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...not really an answer. Ultra big ball is again only adding more power, hokage Naruto even surpassed that with ease outside of sage mode, so its not some senjutsu-only magic technique.
Ultra-big rasengan is a senjutsu and is label as such in the Naruto databook. Only time I saw Naruto made a rasengan of that size was in the Boruto movie when he and Boruto made a Parent/Child rasengan. However one can chalk that up to editing error. Databook trumps all.
@Camel
I dont see how Sage Mode is on par with Version 1 or 2. I can't imagine any of those Jinks being able to stop, let alone lift, a giant rhino. >.>
It doesn't take Sage mode to lift heavy stuff, example;
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Earth_Release:_Earth_Mausoleum_Dumpling
Note I am not saying Sage mode doesn't make you physically stronger, I know it does.
However so does Jinchuriki forms,
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Jinch%C5%ABriki_Forms
Not gonna put super long quotes but here's something for the V1 section; For each tail produced, the jinchūriki gains an incrementally greater boost to speed, strength, and chakra.
Here's something from the V2 section; Entering Version 2 creates a great deal of energy, producing craters beneath the jinchūriki and destroying any restraints that might have been placed upon them beforehand. Strength, speed, and chakra are once again increased beyond the levels of the previous forms.
Now there isn't anything that actually compares the physical strength between Jinchuriki forms and sage mode, but i'm just showing that Jinchuriki forms do increase the strength of the user excessively.
But Warren is right this is getting off topic and becoming a Sage Mode v. Jinchuriki thing.