Shinobi Legends Forum
Roleplay => Village Square => Topic started by: Hazama on February 19, 2017, 07:38:37 AM
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Not sure if this should be here or the bijuu board. It's only about Tenseigan and if it is fair but it's related to the Tenseigan Rusaku wants to use in my Bijuu defense against him. So move the topic if need be.
This is what Rusaku wants to use
Tenseigan:
All 5 nature transformations
Tenseigan Chakra armor
Deva path
All previously mentioned jutsu on a much smaller scale, and without truth seeking balls.
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8444.msg221038.html (http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8444.msg221038.html)
Now that sounded fine to me I just asked him to explain the capabilities of the Tenseigan chakra mode to make sure he wasn't hiding anything there.
He proceeds to tell me that it is as strong as Senjutsu enhanced Kyuubi Chakra Mode, which is a x6 multiplier, plus those other abilities that are listed.
My response to that was having an ability that is literally just Sage Mode, twice as strong, and with other added abilities doesn't seem fair at all. You can enhance yourself and your jutsu with the Tenseigan shroud so the only trade off is you lose Frog Kata and Natural Energy Sensing, which doesn't matter since no Sage Mode user can hit you with their kata taijutsu if you're three times faster than them.
His response was that it is fair for reasons regarding the source material that I don't understand and he refuses to explain because, "I don't have to explain my abilities weaknesses to you." Which seems an awfully convenient thing to be able to say to anyone saying your abilities are god mod.
Considering the quality of judge decisions I've been getting lately and since we don't have a judge yet I wanted to get a community decision on it. Hopefully Rusaku will reveal his secret reason why his ability is fair and all will become clear but until then I want to get a group call on it.
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Not sure if this should be here or the bijuu board. It's only about Tenseigan and if it is fair but it's related to the Tenseigan Rusaku wants to use in my Bijuu defense against him. So move the topic if need be.
This is what Rusaku wants to use
Tenseigan:
All 5 nature transformations
Tenseigan Chakra armor
Deva path
All previously mentioned jutsu on a much smaller scale, and without truth seeking balls.
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8444.msg221038.html (http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8444.msg221038.html)
Now that sounded fine to me I just asked him to explain the capabilities of the Tenseigan chakra mode to make sure he wasn't hiding anything there.
He proceeds to tell me that it is as strong as Senjutsu enhanced Kyuubi Chakra Mode, which is a x6 multiplier, plus those other abilities that are listed.
My response to that was having an ability that is literally just Sage Mode, twice as strong, and with other added abilities doesn't seem fair at all. You can enhance yourself and your jutsu with the Tenseigan shroud so the only trade off is you lose Frog Kata and Natural Energy Sensing, which doesn't matter since no Sage Mode user can hit you with their kata taijutsu if you're three times faster than them.
His response was that it is fair for reasons regarding the source material that I don't understand and he refuses to explain because, "I don't have to explain my abilities weaknesses to you." Which seems an awfully convenient thing to be able to say to anyone saying your abilities are god mod.
Considering the quality of judge decisions I've been getting lately and since we don't have a judge yet I wanted to get a community decision on it. Hopefully Rusaku will reveal his secret reason why his ability is fair and all will become clear but until then I want to get a group call on it.
I mean when I briefly fought Rus and he used it, it didn't seem too unfair.
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8491.0.html
So I think if he used it similar to that, it shouldn't be an issue. Although I understand wanting everything clearly laid out.
If I had to say, I would say Tenseigan = Sage Mode = Rinnegan. Tenseigan in it's current nerfed format should be equal to the two other great powers.
So in my ideal world I would say Tenseigan would be this:
All 5 natures
Deva path stuff
few unique jutsu, like 3 I think the wiki list?
and the armor.
I would say the Rinnegan grants the user really specific techniques, Sage Mode grants all your jutsu boosts, and Tenseigan grants a body mode. So like a Sage Mode user and Tenseigan user both used fire release: fireball ninjutsu, the sage mode users would win out. But like in a fist fight, or tanking damage, Tensiegan would win out.
I also wish people would stop using multiplies, it's just getting silly and arbitrary and is causing issues. Either a tech is better, worse, or equal to something. No need to quantify everything and create issues. Like stacking stuff and inserting random number multipler.
So the real question is how strong should the armor be? I personally ban custom biju mode cloaks, as I believe only the 9 tails Jinch should get that. But because I'm that elisted about it, I don't think someone with Tenseigan should just have access to a power only one person has just cause they claimed a tech.
So to me Tenseigan mode > Lightning Armor, but under 9-tails chakra mode, maybe under Kurama Mode max
I mean I know the cannon puts it on par with like Kurama mode or hold it's own to Six Paths Sage Mode, but that shouldn't be allowed.
Just my two cents anyway.
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I understand the numbers are basically meaningless but alas they are one of the few things people agree on. The wiki says Tenseigan is equal to Naruto's Sage Enhanced Nine Tails Chakra Mode a x3 and a x3 equaling an x6 buff.
I'd definitely agree to faster than Raiton no Yoroi, under Nine Tails Mode.
My concession was this.
Tenseigan:
All 5 nature transformations
Tenseigan Chakra armor (Buffs equal to Sage Mode so x3)
Deva path
All previously mentioned jutsu on a much smaller scale, and without truth seeking balls.
Since no mention is made of the ocular prowess of the eyes you get all the abilities you would while using Byakugan.
I thought that was more than reasonable but Rusaku said the only way he'd agree to bringing it down to x3 would be if he got to use Truth Seeking Balls and the unnerfed Reincarnation Explosions which puts them on planet busting levels. Obviously I said no since that's just even more god mod.
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That's reasonably fair to me.
If anything, I'd just maybe make like one slight concession and say instead of truth seeking balls, they are just random chakra orbs. I know some Tenseigan Techs are channeled through the orbs, so I'd allow basic generic orbs so they can still do that, but not make it truth seeking balls which are basically impervious to everything but Kamui.
But yeah, no unnerfed Golden Wheel. Blowing up the moon is a bit much and gets us into early DBZ territory.
But that's my solution to your problem. Ryoji can come here and explain his side if he wants, else you too either come along to your own agreement or let other opinions pour in. Good luck to you both!!
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That's reasonably fair to me.
If anything, I'd just maybe make like one slight concession and say instead of truth seeking balls, they are just random chakra orbs. I know some Tenseigan Techs are channeled through the orbs, so I'd allow basic generic orbs so they can still do that, but not make it truth seeking balls which are basically impervious to everything but Kamui.
But yeah, no unnerfed Golden Wheel. Blowing up the moon is a bit much and gets us into early DBZ territory.
But that's my solution to your problem. Ryoji can come here and explain his side if he wants, else you too either come along to your own agreement or let other opinions pour in. Good luck to you both!!
I figured that was a given so he could use the nerfed versions of the jutsu. Yeah ive no problem with generic balls of chakra. Hopefully other people also agree that this is a fair breakdown so he can accept it and we can move on to the next 16 arguments we're going to have before the fight starts. :P
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Eh, this stoof is why I'm glad my character is naturally fast/doesn't have to deal with fighting tailed beast cloaks and Tensaigan armors. The speculations of it all is an eyebrow twitching matter
Just make Rusaku goof to the point you can disrupt his chakras & seal away use of those pretty eyes. Make him cry because you declawed his big badness! >:V
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Summary of some agreed upon guidelines for Tensaigan users:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8444.msg221038.html#msg221038
The primary discussion on Tensaigan:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8243.0.html
A short skim of both reveals that what Rusaku originally claimed is in line with what Tensaigan was overall agreed to be capable of doing. That's all I have to say on Tensaigan usage since my opinion on it hasn't changed much.
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Summary of some agreed upon guidelines for Tensaigan users:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8444.msg221038.html#msg221038
The primary discussion on Tensaigan:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8243.0.html
A short skim of both reveals that what Rusaku originally claimed is in line with what Tensaigan was overall agreed to be capable of doing. That's all I have to say on Tensaigan usage since my opinion on it hasn't changed much.
And is there a part where everyone agrees that to make it fair it should be twice as strong as Sage Mode? Because I'm missing that part. In fact I'm seeing a lot more people saying it should be equivalent to Sage Mode.
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Summary of some agreed upon guidelines for Tensaigan users:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8444.msg221038.html#msg221038
The primary discussion on Tensaigan:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8243.0.html
A short skim of both reveals that what Rusaku originally claimed is in line with what Tensaigan was overall agreed to be capable of doing. That's all I have to say on Tensaigan usage since my opinion on it hasn't changed much.
And is there a part where everyone agrees that to make it fair it should be twice as strong as Sage Mode? Because I'm missing that part. In fact I'm seeing a lot more people saying it should be equivalent to Sage Mode.
Equivalent to Rinnegan is what I am mostly seeing, which would mean equivalent to sage mode (if you consider the two equivalent).
The 3x or 2x or whatever limiters were not brought up at the time, so without said quantities, just how much the Tensaigan chakra cloak buffs was not set in stone, though it does not seem that the chakra mode itself was ever nerfed. Seems like mostly the techniques that the Tensaigan granted.
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Summary of some agreed upon guidelines for Tensaigan users:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8444.msg221038.html#msg221038
The primary discussion on Tensaigan:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,8243.0.html
A short skim of both reveals that what Rusaku originally claimed is in line with what Tensaigan was overall agreed to be capable of doing. That's all I have to say on Tensaigan usage since my opinion on it hasn't changed much.
And is there a part where everyone agrees that to make it fair it should be twice as strong as Sage Mode? Because I'm missing that part. In fact I'm seeing a lot more people saying it should be equivalent to Sage Mode.
Equivalent to Rinnegan is what I am mostly seeing, which would mean equivalent to sage mode (if you consider the two equivalent).
The 3x or 2x or whatever limiters were not brought up at the time, so without said quantities, just how much the Tensaigan chakra cloak buffs was not set in stone, though it does not seem that the chakra mode itself was ever nerfed. Seems like mostly the techniques that the Tensaigan granted.
Well then at the very least we can say the multiplier is not decided and needs to be discussed.
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These varying multipliers with Tenseigan have always made me iffy to even go up against it, if the multiplier is equivalent to Sage Mode then I would have no problem playing with these sort of stacked players.
You might want draft up a poll and reach a consensus for the multipliers involved.
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These varying multipliers with Tenseigan have always made me iffy to even go up against it, if the multiplier is equivalent to Sage Mode then I would have no problem playing with these sort of stacked players.
You might want draft up a poll and reach a consensus for the multipliers involved.
Good idea, added a poll.
I don't like Tenseigan either, it's on my void list for a reason. I'm willing to fight it but only if it's a x3 since it is literally just Sage Mode but with even more abilities.
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Or you could just skip the whole numbering thing because as you said, outside of like 1 or max 2 of the already extremely meager 'competitive' people all void tenseigan anyway, and outside of them nobody really gives a flying frack about what multipliers things have, so there's no point plastering further rules and limits and regulations yada yada over it than I already gave it.
Just apply the same thing every Rusaku's opponent has so far. The less OP stuff of yours he doesn't void, the closer to canon equivalent he can use. He voids a lot, most he gets is sage equivalent. Voids little to nothing, sage-enhanced kyuubi cloak.
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Or you could just skip the whole numbering thing because as you said, outside of like 1 or max 2 of the already extremely meager 'competitive' people all void tenseigan anyway, and outside of them nobody really gives a flying frack about what multipliers things have, so there's no point plastering further rules and limits and regulations yada yada over it than I already gave it.
Just apply the same thing every Rusaku's opponent has so far. The less OP stuff of yours he doesn't void, the closer to canon equivalent he can use. He voids a lot, most he gets is sage equivalent. Voids little to nothing, sage-enhanced kyuubi cloak.
Well I give a flying frack what the multiplier is because he's insisting that he get to use Tenseigan and that everyone agreed to a x6 multiplier so he shouldn't even have to discuss it. That is why I made the topic. That is something to consider I suppose but I would rather he just use a fair version than trade for the OP one.
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I still vote for sealing it away and making him cry like a discount fish <_<
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I still vote for sealing it away and making him cry like a discount fish
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Why not just void the Tensaigan in exchange for some of your stuff being voided? How much could he really void of yours that would make as big of a difference? And just to be sure:
Sage mode is 3x multiplier, chakra cloaks are, what, 3x as well? What are the multiplier comparisons?
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Why not just void the Tensaigan in exchange for some of your stuff being voided? How much could he really void of yours that would make as big of a difference? And just to be sure:
Sage mode is 3x multiplier, chakra cloaks are, what, 3x as well? What are the multiplier comparisons?
I'd be fine with that since he's made it clear he wants to void several things of mine but I doubt he'll go for it.
That depends what you mean, do you mean like Lightning Chakra Mode or a Bijuu Cloak? Those don't have numbers (other than the Nine Tails Chakra Modes).
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Why not just void the Tensaigan in exchange for some of your stuff being voided? How much could he really void of yours that would make as big of a difference? And just to be sure:
Sage mode is 3x multiplier, chakra cloaks are, what, 3x as well? What are the multiplier comparisons?
I'd be fine with that since he's made it clear he wants to void several things of mine but I doubt he'll go for it.
That depends what you mean, do you mean like Lightning Chakra Mode or a Bijuu Cloak? Those don't have numbers (other than the Nine Tails Chakra Modes).
The stuff that does have a multiplier attached, what are those multipliers?
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Why not just void the Tensaigan in exchange for some of your stuff being voided? How much could he really void of yours that would make as big of a difference? And just to be sure:
Sage mode is 3x multiplier, chakra cloaks are, what, 3x as well? What are the multiplier comparisons?
I'd be fine with that since he's made it clear he wants to void several things of mine but I doubt he'll go for it.
That depends what you mean, do you mean like Lightning Chakra Mode or a Bijuu Cloak? Those don't have numbers (other than the Nine Tails Chakra Modes).
The stuff that does have a multiplier attached, what are those multipliers?
No they don't because multipliers are an SL invention and completely arbitrary. The x3 thing for Sage Mode is just something some users decided to say and it stuck. Not everyone uses multipliers and some multipliers even differ between players.
Which is why I believe abc logic works better
Tenseigan = Rinnegan = Sage Mode in terms of power
Lightning mode = biju cloak (the basic red one)
Biju chakra mode pretty much over everything.
If people really wanted, we could compile a list of what beats what, etc. But I think that's unnecessary. But Athos saying those techs don't have a specific number, but eric saying it does, but does not know said number is why multipliers should not be used in such a manner. Too much variance and unnecessary confusion.
So unless a thread list every single multiplier and it's exactness, just use abc logic. Most people know what enhancement is better than others.
Just put Tenseigan on par with Sage mode/ Rinnegan instead of on par with Senjutsu enhanced Kurama mode and the problem is solved in my opinion
Just my old man complaint for you youngster >.>
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Why not just void the Tensaigan in exchange for some of your stuff being voided? How much could he really void of yours that would make as big of a difference? And just to be sure:
Sage mode is 3x multiplier, chakra cloaks are, what, 3x as well? What are the multiplier comparisons?
I'd be fine with that since he's made it clear he wants to void several things of mine but I doubt he'll go for it.
That depends what you mean, do you mean like Lightning Chakra Mode or a Bijuu Cloak? Those don't have numbers (other than the Nine Tails Chakra Modes).
The stuff that does have a multiplier attached, what are those multipliers?
No they don't because multipliers are an SL invention and completely arbitrary. The x3 thing for Sage Mode is just something some users decided to say and it stuck. Not everyone uses multipliers and some multipliers even differ between players.
Which is why I believe abc logic works better
Tenseigan = Rinnegan = Sage Mode in terms of power
Lightning mode = biju cloak (the basic red one)
Biju chakra mode pretty much over everything.
If people really wanted, we could compile a list of what beats what, etc. But I think that's unnecessary. But Athos saying those techs don't have a specific number, but eric saying it does, but does not know said number is why multipliers should not be used in such a manner. Too much variance and unnecessary confusion.
So unless a thread list every single multiplier and it's exactness, just use abc logic. Most people know what enhancement is better than others.
Just put Tenseigan on par with Sage mode/ Rinnegan instead of on par with Senjutsu enhanced Kurama mode and the problem is solved in my opinion
Just my old man complaint for you youngster >.>
+1
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I kinda like Trev's idea of it being equal to Rinnegan/Sage Mode rather than dealing with multipliers.
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My internet is currently down, so I'm using my phone for this.
This is a gross misunderstanding of just exactly how Tenseigan is applied in combat when it comes to SL. Tenseogan chalra mode is the only technique granted by Tenseigan of any worth after SL nerfed it into the ground. Unlike Sage mode and Rinnegan, I am unable to mix either gates, or Elemental chakra modes with my armor, because it was noted in the thread that it would be unfair,. So right off the bat I am unable to access a significant number of stat boosts that someone like Bocc has access too. If Tenseigan chakra mode is to be considered equal to sage mode, then the rules need to change in regard to what Resets I'm allowed to claim, and what chakra modes I'm allowed to stack.
What Athos has refused to even mention were the two very reasonable compromises that I gave in order to appease Bocc who is obviously running the show here. First was lowering the boost to 3x while gaining access to the other techniques that were voided or nerfed, and the second was a 4.5x boost and the techniques remained voided and nerfed as originally ruled. I am aware that having a larger multiplier is unfair, but unlike Tenseigan, Sage mode and Rinnegan don't get perminantly femoved from your body if you sustain enough damage. It wasn't even a fatal attack that was received, and the eyes were removed from him. Now that seems like an outrageous weakness that neither of the other options have, so once again why should my thing be so significantly weaker when you actually compare them and how they mix with other techniques in the naruto world. Seems unfair.
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And if we are going to nerf my cloak down from 6, then we need to nerf Kurama who is the exact same power boost, but can be used with sage mode, Rinnegan, and gates for literally free.
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My internet is currently down, so I'm using my phone for this.
This is a gross misunderstanding of just exactly how Tenseigan is applied in combat when it comes to SL. Tenseogan chalra mode is the only technique granted by Tenseigan of any worth after SL nerfed it into the ground. Unlike Sage mode and Rinnegan, I am unable to mix either gates, or Elemental chakra modes with my armor, because it was noted in the thread that it would be unfair,. So right off the bat I am unable to access a significant number of stat boosts that someone like Bocc has access too. If Tenseigan chakra mode is to be considered equal to sage mode, then the rules need to change in regard to what Resets I'm allowed to claim, and what chakra modes I'm allowed to stack.
What Athos has refused to even mention were the two very reasonable compromises that I gave in order to appease Bocc who is obviously running the show here. First was lowering the boost to 3x while gaining access to the other techniques that were voided or nerfed, and the second was a 4.5x boost and the techniques remained voided and nerfed as originally ruled. I am aware that having a larger multiplier is unfair, but unlike Tenseigan, Sage mode and Rinnegan don't get perminantly femoved from your body if you sustain enough damage. It wasn't even a fatal attack that was received, and the eyes were removed from him. Now that seems like an outrageous weakness that neither of the other options have, so once again why should my thing be so significantly weaker when you actually compare them and how they mix with other techniques in the naruto world. Seems unfair.
1. Don't call Athos Bocc. I don't even care if it was somehow truth, you and others either have proof or you don't. Don't start a mudslinging contest, we just got through with one, and I doubt Ace is going to continue to tolerate it. Just warning you since you've been got for a bit, but tone it down or you'll get slammed by the popo >.>
2. Multipliers are still silly >>
3. Your first compromise seems nearly identical to the one Athos proposed. Except he disputes an unerfed Golden Wheel Reincarnation. Which means this is the only thing holding this topic up. Blowing up the whole moon is too much even in SL terms. My suggested compromise is move it from planet busting to mountain busting/ village. That seems fair, and I don't think Athos would disagree with mountain busting, as even Madara's Susanoo could do that.
4. That's a silly weakness for Tenseigan to have, you shouldn't be able to lose it like it. So if it's strengths are rapidly nerfed, I would get rid of that weakness personally.
5. I would personally ban all enhanced biju cloaks if it were up to me. But I would argue Kurama mode is different in one has to earn the 9 tails, which is normally held by someone strong, then has to survive challenges long enough to master the beast. Lot of effort, rather than just claiming the Tensiegan or Rinnegan or Sage Mode.
So Tenseigan :
All five elements
Deva path
Chakra mode
If you all really must insist on a dang multiplier, 3
Nerfed jutsu (Golden Wheel to be discussed by you two)
Can use the Tenseigan eyes like Byakugan, meaning all Hyuugan techs are still in play.
That's a whole heck of a lot, especially if it's supposed to equal Sage Mode or Rinnegan. So you're sacrificing stacking stuff up, but you're gaining pretty much a mix of Rinnegan, Sage Mode, and a biju cloak. That's more than fair.
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Golden wheel is a big sword so as long as it takes some large amount of chakra like a Bijuu-dama or Perfect Susano'o to use I'm fine with it being on those levels.
So yeah I'm fine with what Trev said, reiterating that it would not include Truth Seeking Balls.
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I'm down with getting rid of multipliers but I'm still a firm believer that the cloak should be at least the same level as Nine tails chakra mode. The version before the Kurama chakra mode where you sync your heart with him. It was one step above lightning chakra mode just like Trev suggested, but a mastered Kurama is still significantly stronger.
I'll accept the golden wheel nerf, and any others, if that means I can use that chakra mode as an example of my scaling.
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Uhh, slightly off topic but wasn't the 8 tails also showed having two version shrouds or is Trev just saying except for Kurama he personally thinks there shouldn't be a V2 for the sake of keeping things scaled down?
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Uhh, slightly off topic but wasn't the 8 tails also showed having two version shrouds or is Trev just saying except for Kurama he personally thinks there shouldn't be a V2 for the sake of keeping things scaled down?
No! Every biju can do the basic red cloak, which comes in version 1 and version 2. However, people with the Kyuubi can go Nine Tails Chakra Mode and Kurama Mode which is very different. V2 is nice is all, but it doesn't make you faster than lightning chakra mode for example, etc. People on SL have custom chakra
Like
http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Two-Tails_Chakra_Mode
and I think one was made for the Hachibi and Rokubi too? I was just saying I think this ability to do a biju chakra mode and not just a biju cloak should be reserved for the jinch of the 9 tails only. Cause that's what we see in the canon, makes the 9 tails more valuable on SL, etc. But it's just my opinion however, nothing more. If you want to discuss it more, open another topic so one of the mods don't smack us around for going off topic >.>
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Uhh, slightly off topic but wasn't the 8 tails also showed having two version shrouds or is Trev just saying except for Kurama he personally thinks there shouldn't be a V2 for the sake of keeping things scaled down?
No! Every biju can do the basic red cloak, which comes in version 1 and version 2. However, people with the Kyuubi can go Nine Tails Chakra Mode and Kurama Mode which is very different. V2 is nice is all, but it doesn't make you faster than lightning chakra mode for example, etc. People on SL have custom chakra
Like
http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Two-Tails_Chakra_Mode
and I think one was made for the Hachibi and Rokubi too? I was just saying I think this ability to do a biju chakra mode and not just a biju cloak should be reserved for the jinch of the 9 tails only. Cause that's what we see in the canon, makes the 9 tails more valuable on SL, etc. But it's just my opinion however, nothing more. If you want to discuss it more, open another topic so one of the mods don't smack us around for going off topic >.>
Ah fair enough, yeah I don't see the need to have a 4 Wars Cloak except for the Kurama just to simplify things. I was just confused as to what you were referring to earlier.
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I'm down with getting rid of multipliers but I'm still a firm believer that the cloak should be at least the same level as Nine tails chakra mode. The version before the Kurama chakra mode where you sync your heart with him. It was one step above lightning chakra mode just like Trev suggested, but a mastered Kurama is still significantly stronger.
I'll accept the golden wheel nerf, and any others, if that means I can use that chakra mode as an example of my scaling.
As long as it's a x3 multiplier you can claim its faster than Raiton no Yoroi.
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Well, as I said, I'm gonna be dropping multipliers because they are pointless. So Tenseigan chakra mode will power my techniques in the same way Senjutsu does, yes.
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Then we can move on. Topic concluded.