Shinobi Legends Forum

Roleplay => All That Is Bijuu => Council => Topic started by: Rusaku on September 13, 2017, 02:51:22 AM

Title: Memories
Post by: Rusaku on September 13, 2017, 02:51:22 AM
Seeing as the council created the rules regarding the tailed beasts, I had a question that perhaps you all could shed some light on. Now, I don't believe that we ever talked about this before, and if we have please let me know where I can read up on it, but have we ever discussed the topic of a tailed beasts memory and it's releation to former hosts?

For example, seeing as Rusaku had mastered the 7 tails in the past, and spent a lot of time with it in doing so, would the current host be able to extrapolate vital information from the beast regarding me and my relationship with it? With Kurama having been hosted by several people in the past, could I get information on them now that I am the host?

The only example I can find of someone addressing this is in the fight where Kamui was GMing as the 8 tails when Yujo was attempting to capture it. He made mention that the beast had no recollection of Yujo, thus the fight would commence as if they had never shared a vessel. Though, as far as I am aware, that was only included because Yujo needed to fight and win the beast, and it wouldn't be fair for Gyuki to just climb on inside because Yujo mastered him previously.

Personally, I'm fine with the beasts retaining the information on previous hosts, because that would maintain a continuity, but I'm also fine with them losing memory, because then it could lead to people taking advantage of the opportunity that provides.   
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Yomi on September 13, 2017, 03:48:03 AM
I said before that I wouldn't poke my nose into bijuu business, but this caught my attention and I might as well throw in an idea.

Rusaku raised some points on the pros and cons of the beasts retaining memories of their previous hosts, though the cons kinda give the current host a free ticket to know vital stuff about a previous host. Say that previous host X is wanted criminal in all shinobi villages, so the current host can just blab that 'oh, host X used to be at {this place} and can do {these stuff} because their former beast told me'. That is, in a way, metagaming and that's a no-no around here.

I suggest that the beasts do retain memories of their previous host, but just their identities, not abilities or affiliations and such. A name and probably how they treated/interacted with their bijuu would be reasonable, yes? Again, this is just a suggestion. *bows out*
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Rusaku on September 13, 2017, 04:02:37 AM
I said before that I wouldn't poke my nose into bijuu business, but this kind of caught my attention and I might as well throw in an idea.

Rusaku raised some points on the pros and cons of the beasts retaining memories of their previous hosts, though the cons kinda give the current host a free ticket to know vital stuff about a previous host. Say that previous host X is wanted criminal in all shinobi villages, so the current host can just blab that 'oh, host X used to be at {this place} and can do {these stuff} because their former beast told me'. That is already metagaming in a way and that's a no-no around here.

I suggest that the beasts do retain memories of their previous host, but just their identities, not abilities or affiliations and such. A name and probably how they treated/interacted with their bijuu would be reasonable, yes? Again, this is just a suggestion. *bows out*

For the sake of being the devil's advocate, I would purpose that it isn't meta gaming. If a person follows the necessary channels and gains information on a person it's not metagaming to then use that information to your advantage. So why would it then become metagaming to ascertain the knowledge that a tailed beast would in fact have on any particular individual and use it to further your own goals? Is it meta gaming because it's easier than most other options?

I would simply label it as unfair, opposed to Metagaming. Though I am not against your suggestion of limiting the information a beast would have. My counter offer might be...Name and affiliation, but no details on powers and abilities or well kept secrets like a hideout or scheme in the works. Learning a name and affiliation would give people a decent lead as to where this individual might frequent, which would allow for the possibility of an IC hunt (Not necessarily a Biju hunt). Just having the village that they were affiliated with while being the beast's host would not immediately oust you. Said hunter would still need to go there and try and handle the situation from that point forward, assuming you're even in that village anymore. The information could be dated after all.       
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Yomi on September 13, 2017, 04:25:24 AM
For the sake of being the devil's advocate, I would purpose that it isn't meta gaming. If a person follows the necessary channels and gains information on a person it's not metagaming to then use that information to your advantage. So why would it then become metagaming to ascertain the knowledge that a tailed beast would in fact have on any particular individual and use it to further your own goals? Is it meta gaming because it's easier than most other options?

I would simply label it as unfair, opposed to Metagaming. Though I am not against your suggestion of limiting the information a beast would have. My counter offer might be...Name and affiliation, but no details on powers and abilities or well kept secrets like a hideout or scheme in the works. Learning a name and affiliation would give people a decent lead as to where this individual might frequent, which would allow for the possibility of an IC hunt (Not necessarily a Biju hunt). Just having the village that they were affiliated with while being the beast's host would not immediately oust you. Said hunter would still need to go there and try and handle the situation from that point forward, assuming you're even in that village anymore. The information could be dated after all.     

Okay, maybe I used the term wrong, but it's more of an IC level with regards to actual roleplaying on the site. Let's admit, most of the bijuu are won and claimed OOCly here. So how exactly would it fit in the RP occurring on site? I may be overthinking about the part of the beasts being injected into all things IC, but again, what's pushing the limit when it comes to getting in-character information? What is fair and unfair?

Name and affiliation is good enough. I dunno how the current hosts will use any of this info about the previous vessels, unless the previous guy/s owes them money or something, but I guess it will suffice.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Rusaku on September 13, 2017, 04:39:49 AM
For the sake of being the devil's advocate, I would purpose that it isn't meta gaming. If a person follows the necessary channels and gains information on a person it's not metagaming to then use that information to your advantage. So why would it then become metagaming to ascertain the knowledge that a tailed beast would in fact have on any particular individual and use it to further your own goals? Is it meta gaming because it's easier than most other options?

I would simply label it as unfair, opposed to Metagaming. Though I am not against your suggestion of limiting the information a beast would have. My counter offer might be...Name and affiliation, but no details on powers and abilities or well kept secrets like a hideout or scheme in the works. Learning a name and affiliation would give people a decent lead as to where this individual might frequent, which would allow for the possibility of an IC hunt (Not necessarily a Biju hunt). Just having the village that they were affiliated with while being the beast's host would not immediately oust you. Said hunter would still need to go there and try and handle the situation from that point forward, assuming you're even in that village anymore. The information could be dated after all.     

Okay, maybe I used the term wrong, but it's more of an IC level with regards to actual roleplaying on the site. Let's admit, most of the bijuu are won and claimed OOCly here. So how exactly would it fit in the RP occurring on site? I may be overthinking about the part of the beasts being injected into all things IC, but again, what's pushing the limit when it comes to getting in-character information? What is fair and unfair?

Name and affiliation is good enough. I dunno how the current hosts will use any of this info about the previous vessels, unless the previous guy/s owes them money or something, but I guess it will suffice.

I couldn't tell you what the current host list would gain from this, but maybe someone else will come along and beat me for the nine, and decide that they wanted to get me IC as well, thus using the information to at least start their vendetta. It's all hypothetical, but it's better to iron out details like this before a problem arises, opposed to waiting for someone to take advantage of the fact that we have not discussed this topic and suddenly learn every technique that a preveous host ever knew, because memory hax.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Warren on September 13, 2017, 04:48:58 AM
Last I heard the whole 'knew all techniques etc of prior host' has been done already, but I'm not gonna name names.

A beast can't know something it never learned, and you deciding it learned something of a prior host anyway is character control / metagaming. There's no point in convoluting it even further by trying to establish some kind of basic default stuff it'd know automatically by having been just hosted, that would make no sense.

If you want to learn something through one, ask the prior host what would the beast actually know of them, if anything. If they do know something, you have to actually make them tell you. If they don't, you're SoL.

If the prior host has left/quit/whatever, the beast would have just forgotten due to passage of time or whatever other reasons. They don't have perfect memories as seen with Gyuki.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Rusaku on September 13, 2017, 05:01:28 AM
Last I heard the whole 'knew all techniques etc of prior host' has been done already, but I'm not gonna name names.

A beast can't know something it never learned, and you deciding it learned something of a prior host anyway is character control / metagaming. There's no point in convoluting it even further by trying to establish some kind of basic default stuff it'd know automatically by having been just hosted, that would make no sense.

If you want to learn something through one, ask the prior host what would the beast actually know of them, if anything. If they do know something, you have to actually make them tell you. If they don't, you're SoL.

If the prior host has left/quit/whatever, the beast would have just forgotten due to passage of time or whatever other reasons. They don't have perfect memories as seen with Gyuki.

I would have to say I disagree with most of your logic here. Kurama was able to remember Hagoromo splitting the beasts from over a millennia ago, and the exact speech he was giving them during that time. If he can do that, He can remember details about his host from 3 years ago if he was asked. Its also been established that the tailed beast is able to view the life of it's host as if it were looking through their eyes, so it's entirely within the realm of possibility that if a host learned something during their time together, then that beast would be able to pass on the knowledge of how to perform said technique.

You're trying to trivialize something that could actually come up as an issue, which I don't understand. I know you had Shukakku for a very long time, so Kamui could just as easily extrapolate as much information he wants from the one tails with a simple Sharingan Genjutsu. Even if Shukaku couldn't remember every event perfectly, hypnosis can solve that problem without issue, so long as he witnessed it in some facet. If we were not trying to establish rules here, then he would legally have all that information and you would be the one SOL. Like I said, there is no harm in stopping an issue before it arises.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Eric on September 13, 2017, 05:16:19 AM
Well, since we do not generally keep extensive track of who hosts what, it makes sense that the beasts would not either, from an OOC standpoint. Only for the sake of mastery is prior history a huge factor as far as the current rules go, and even then, as I said, there is not much of a concrete history of hosts that can be referenced in case the Council ever needed to make a decision there.

Just by default have the beasts not remember anything prior to the previous host at best or not at all at worse, unless these are memories regarding the current host/summoner is my thought.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Warren on September 13, 2017, 05:22:17 AM
I don't feel like arguing over minute canon semantics, much less whether I know better than someone else what exactly I've been doing past couple of years IC -Bocchi-ball in particular tried that, often, and never got it right-, so I'ma just not debate that >_> our debates never go well anyway Rusaku.

Just make it either a name and general personality, or simply nothing, then.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Yomi on September 13, 2017, 05:23:55 AM
Just make it either a name and general personality, or simply nothing, then.
This. +1
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Rusaku on September 13, 2017, 05:31:16 AM
Well, since we do not generally keep extensive track of who hosts what, it makes sense that the beasts would not either, from an OOC standpoint. Only for the sake of mastery is prior history a huge factor as far as the current rules go, and even then, as I said, there is not much of a concrete history of hosts that can be referenced in case the Council ever needed to make a decision there.

Just by default have the beasts not remember anything prior to the previous host at best or not at all at worse, unless these are memories regarding the current host/summoner is my thought.

But it makes no sense from a continuity standpoint, and contradicts the canon information we have. Kurama can recall his time with both Mito and Kushina. Why in SL would that fact removed entirely if not for one more reason to break immersion? Yomi and I discussed that perhaps a name and affiliation is fair considering there is little to gain from having just that information. You are still required to have the savvy to follow up on that for it to be worth anything.   

I don't feel like arguing over minute canon semantics, much less whether I know better than someone else what exactly I've been doing past couple of years IC -Bocchi-ball in particular tried that, often, and never got it right-, so I'ma just not debate that >_> our debates never go well anyway Rusaku.

Just make it either a name and general personality, or simply nothing, then.

I'm trying to stop people from being able to abuse the ambiguity of our rules and the canon traits the beasts have displayed. There really isn't anything to debate, other than if it should be allowed or not, honestly. As I said with Eric, my opinion is to limit any possible information gain to name and affiliation. If we so choose that Name and Personality is better suited, then I can live with that. I'm here to establish regulation, not make it easier for people to have our entire history after a week with a beast we had a a year ago. The issue is, I also want it to be a fair regulation. 
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Eric on September 13, 2017, 06:13:12 AM
Well, since we do not generally keep extensive track of who hosts what, it makes sense that the beasts would not either, from an OOC standpoint. Only for the sake of mastery is prior history a huge factor as far as the current rules go, and even then, as I said, there is not much of a concrete history of hosts that can be referenced in case the Council ever needed to make a decision there.

Just by default have the beasts not remember anything prior to the previous host at best or not at all at worse, unless these are memories regarding the current host/summoner is my thought.

But it makes no sense from a continuity standpoint, and contradicts the canon information we have. Kurama can recall his time with both Mito and Kushina. Why in SL would that fact removed entirely if not for one more reason to break immersion? Yomi and I discussed that perhaps a name and affiliation is fair considering there is little to gain from having just that information. You are still required to have the savvy to follow up on that for it to be worth anything...   


I am not really concerned with canon here. Few biju rules take canon into account. The accounting of who was a host is not kept up with in a formal setting, so if there is a ruling needing to be made about whether or not the beast would have intel on a previous host (name and affiliation by the proposal) that goes back farther than one or two hosts, the only proof that is likely to exist are the biju fight records in the arena. If the fight was an IC biju hunt then good luck for real proving that beyond a "he wrote she wrote" deal.

I stand by my suggestion. Affiliation can actually tell alot, especially if you want clues as to how to pursue a character. A full name would reveal lineage (IE, KG and secret techniques so that they can be studied up on ahead of time) and of itself can be highly valuable IC information. Personality, truthfully, is probably the lesser of the evils only because alot of characters have personalities that fit the situation, not the other way around.

Continuity for the beasts, in my opinion, would only be helpful if the history of the beasts also starts getting tracked or recorded. And I do not think there are any volunteers for that project.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Dart Terumī on September 13, 2017, 06:33:12 AM
I believe that it would be a very bad idea for the bijū to have any recollection of its previous containers. It just spells for meta-gaming disaster, especially if the two competing souls do not like each other. It's better to just let them be blank slate each time they are sealed.

Like Eric pointed out, name and affliction can tell a lot about an individual and what could be expected of their abilities. I know for one, that I like to keep myself as quiet and private as possible. The world doesn't need to know what I can and cannot do, ICcly, until I choose to reveal my abilities.

It's just a cheap, easy way out to gain information without doing actual IC work.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Yomi on September 13, 2017, 07:06:28 AM
Might be better if the previous hosts were referred to by the beasts as "some bloke" or "that chick".
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Timothy on September 13, 2017, 11:24:06 AM
I personally don't really have much beef beyond using a tailed beast to 'teach' the current user a past user's techniques or some sort.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Jestar on September 13, 2017, 05:04:56 PM
I personally don't really have much beef beyond using a tailed beast to 'teach' the current user a past user's techniques or some sort.

Biju techs or any tech?
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Ѕhadow on September 13, 2017, 08:56:38 PM
I believe that it would be a very bad idea for the bijū to have any recollection of its previous containers. It just spells for meta-gaming disaster, especially if the two competing souls do not like each other.

It's just a cheap, easy way out to gain information without doing actual IC work.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Warren on September 13, 2017, 08:59:10 PM
Seems general opinion is either name and personality, or simply nothing.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Old Man Xia on September 14, 2017, 03:08:43 AM
Seems general opinion is either name and personality, or simply nothing.

+2
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Rusaku on September 14, 2017, 03:43:52 AM
I get a general sense that this decision is motivated by personal insecurity of your own characters opposed to what is an objective outlook on the situation. You're also overestimating what can be done with a name and affiliation. Look at Dart for example, since he seems so worried that someone is going to find out anything about his character. If I have your name and affiliation I'm still going to have to deal with the fact you never step foot outside Kirigakure, which is surrounded by chakra eating mist and a million other defenses. Then, assuming I get past that, I have to deal with the entire hidden mist village in addition to you in order to do whatever it is I'm trying to do. The only thing that has become easier for me, is narrowing my search parameters, and maybe some knowledge on 2 of possibly 4-5 kekkie genkai depending on how you run your character.

Or let's use Eric as another. Eric Nara only gives me the information that you would have Shadow manipulation. If I otherwise knew nothing about you, I would still be in the dark on the entirety of your arsenal save for one Hiden. You could have any number of KG and I wouldn't be able to extrapolate even one (other than maybe whatever KG is related to the beast in question). Not only this, but The Nara Order wouldn't have registered as a blip on my radar, so I wouldn't even know where to begin when it comes to finding you.

That's two examples of why having a name and affiliation wouldn't equate to anything outlandish for the host in question to have, and even if you could extrapolate a fair amount of information, you still have to have the skill to follow up on it, which falls upon the host.

I also find it disturbing that people are so willing to conflate "easy" and "metagaming" into one concept. Just because one thing is easier to achieve over something else does not make it somehow against the rules.

As for knowing who has been a tailed beast host in the past, I'm sure plenty of us have extensive knowledge of previous hosts, save for those whom only lasted a handful of weeks at a time, and each can likely be proven by searching through old threads on this very forum. I know for a fact there is a thread where people were discussing the official release of what the beasts actually looked like however many years ago that was. Back when Toumaster had an 8 headed snake for the 8 tails. We ca go plenty far back to observe a great number of the hosts.

But really, if the community genuinely believes it's more fair to just have the beasts memory wiped, then fine, it's no skin off my teeth. I would actually be far better off, because I can't interact with a certain host right now because his beast would have information on me that would really stir the pot. I just want this decision made based on an objective outlook, and not people looking for another way to bury their heads in the sand.         
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Timothy on September 14, 2017, 06:14:09 AM
Eh, I always assumed part of hosting a tailed beast came with risks like people gaining info on your toon, if they actually public ally rp'd talking to it after they got on speaking terms. Then again, I always operated under the assumption that all of my characters techniques would be somehow known by name and easily countered (not that such is reasonably the case) to make my own strategy more flexible.

As long as someone isn't using a tailed beast to say learn the secret techniques of a past host, I'm game. (to elaborate for Jestar)
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Warren on September 14, 2017, 12:22:26 PM
I said personality, not affiliation. I doubt a beast would even give a damn about human 'affiliations' or anything lol.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Eric on September 15, 2017, 12:35:59 AM


...Or let's use Eric as another. Eric Nara only gives me the information that you would have Shadow manipulation. If I otherwise knew nothing about you, I would still be in the dark on the entirety of your arsenal save for one Hiden...

Eric is a bad example, because his Nara Hiden is 60% if not more of his arsenal, and the vast majority of his tactics revolve around shadow imitation. He has grown more diverse since our characters last fought, but not to the extent where shadow imitation is still not his main schitck. That's how the character has been written, turning shadow imitation into a jack of all trades that can do just about anything.

 Granted he rarely if ever wins using just his shadow imitation because his fame for it makes it a given that most would know the basics of how to avoid them (similarl to sharingan: genjutsu). The only time he wins with shadow imitation is tricking people into getting caught, and that is super hard if the opposing player knows its coming way beforehand.

Objective outlook is that tailed beasts having lots of information on previous hosts and being able to tell their enemies about it would be a serious tradeoff to befriending the beast or even being a jinchurikii at all, a tradeoff that nobody wants to have used against them. What if the beast feels some loyalty towards a previous host? Why do the beasts seem to be willing to give out their power from host to host given a certain amount of time, universally? Usually when beasts are hand switched the RPer behind them also changes, meaning possibly an entirely new personality, quirks, etc.

If tailed beasts start remembering past information about their host more RPwise, then they should be harder to befriend after they have been with a prior host for a certain amount of time (say, mastery), and each beast would essentially need to have a RP history.

I will give you that compiling and presenting a list of all known jinchurikii/summoners using information from the forum, wikia, etc. is possible, but often times the RP that would back up having specific knowledge (like techniques) would still be lacking. Most of the forum records usually show OOC records.
Title: Re: Memories
Post by: Ethaniel on September 16, 2017, 02:41:43 AM
I'm going to agree that having the Tailed Beast hand out information beyond a name and maybe a physical description would cause complications, and add my vote that we limit it to that. I don't agree with the idea that it's metagaming (because it is a reasonable way to gather information; you're not drawing from a source that's outside of the scope of the character you're learning about, nor of the game itself), but arguing what a Tailed Beast does or doesn't know about a prior host sounds like something that would need to end in arbitration, and I really don't think anyone wants to deal with that sort of a situation.

I'll use Ethaniel as an example (more so of the type of issues that could arise, since he was never a host). Which of his techniques could the Beast have learned: the ones he had used in combat, or all of the ones in his repertoire? Would it include knowledge that he himself was no longer privy to, due to his lost memories? Could the Beast pass on his energy signature, so that a new host would be able to find Ivory through it, since Ethaniel doesn't exist anymore (I'll admit this isn't one that would come up outside of this specific example, but it's a question worth asking)? And these are only a few of the things that could come up in a debate about the knowledge a Tailed Beast carries of its previous host, if we were to allow it to work that way.