Shinobi Legends Forum
Roleplay => All That Is Bijuu => Rules/Foundation => Topic started by: KayentaMoenkopi on September 18, 2016, 02:53:41 AM
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Ok. the issue of how mastery was going to be handled was never finalized. Let's get some talk going on here and finish that part up, ok? I was asked today...is it a total of 3 or 15 weeks for mastery?
4] Mastering a Biju Clause
- The beast must be completely mastered before the Jinchuriki can access Tailed Beast Mode.
- The Bijuu Bomb can only be used while in Tailed Beast Mode.
- The Bijuu’s passive ability can be accessed immediately upon being sealed with the beast, but the power will be weaker than someone who has mastered the beast. It takes time to master the passive abilities of a bijuu.
- Number of tail manifestations before mastery is achieved--> under discussion.
- Mastery will occur in five stages consisting of 3 weeks each, with a mid rage evolution stage to access partial transformations.
- 25% - grants access to C ranked jutsu in the beast's passive ability. The host has access to the Initial Jinchūriki Form.
- 50% - grants access to B ranked jutsu in the beast's passive ability. The host has access to the Version 1 Cloak.
- Partial Transformation - Although no additional access to the beast's passive ability have been acquired, control over the transformative stages now includes the finesse to perform partial transformations.
- 75% - grants access to A ranked jutsu in the beast's passive ability. The host has access to the Version 2 Cloak.
- 100% - grants access to S ranked jutsu in the beast's passive ability. The host has access to Tailed Beast Mode.
- Consequences of going over mastery--> In Discussion
I prefer that stages of abilities gained is how we handle it. Rather than to say so long per tail, because it really should not be easier to master Shukaku than Kurama. I feel the bijuu are all equally difficult to master.
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Rather than to say so long per tail, because it really should not be easier to master Shukaku than Kurama. I feel the bijuu are all equally difficult to master.
I actually like this way better for this reason. I'll throw whatever say I have towards a seconding for this system.
The only real issue I see is "is 15 weeks short/long enough to determine mastery?"
We've already discussed how the passage of time means literally nothing since everyone more-or-less does their own. So how do we decide on the time period for each rank? Naruto took a day shy of 17 years to master Kurama. Granted, he was a kid for the majority of that, but it still took him a good chunk of time.
I think maybe 4-5 weeks seems a little better, but I don't think it'd be much of an issue unless it becomes something drastic like under a week or 3+ months per rank.
Just my dumb thoughts.
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I've always used the two weeks for one tail rule, it was nice and simple. And it works all ways around.
In this case, sure, people with lower amount of tails with reach mastery faster but they overall still are weaker than the hosts above them. It doesn't mean that it is easier to master the beasts with lower tails, not at all. It just means that there is less power to HAVE TO master from each beast, due to tail number and such. Same process for each beast, just different strokes for different folks.
I honestly prefer to do things through RP but in all my time here I've never seen a way to master tails through RP that can't be rigged or some BS.
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I disagree that tail number equates to bijuu power level.
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I like the set time, it gives everyone an equal amount (4 weeks sounds good). Mostly due to the fact Tailed Beast mastery, as stated before, either can be very long or cut short depending on what exactly the Jinchuriki does (Killer B going to the Falls of Truth to quickly master Gyuki) and the personality of their beasts as well (Menma and Black Kurama working together because of their shared hate).
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As far as consequences go, the biju having an ultimate desire for freedom should compel it to seize control at first opportunity; when the user goes over mastery, the tailed beast is unleashed that turn. In a RP fight this leads to death of the host and an ensuing battle between the biju and the challenger (we need to figure out who GM's that by the way, or give the Council the ability to pick a straw to go into that cup) while in an OOC fight this is an automatic forfeit of the match.
Also, I think the mastery times should be toned to 2 weeks per stage instead of 3. 12 weeks, 3 months, no one can master a beast unless they hold the bugger for that long, which I think is asking a bit much. 8 weeks, 2 months, is much more forgiving imho.
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is much more forgiving imho.
You almost had me until you said that.
Why does it need to be forgiving? Why should it be easier for them? If they want to be hosts, then they should know they signed up for the task of defending and protecting themselves. 3 months versus 2 isn't a whole lot different when people can post once a week and make a fight last a year before they even scratch each other. Even in in-game time, 3 months (9 months) is almost 16 less years than it took two of the three Jinchuuriki that had more than 2 minutes of screen time to master their beasts. I know the majority of people don't use in-game time as how they age, but it's easier than making up numbers to prove my point. I don't think those who obtain, hold, or seek to obtain a Bijuu should be coddled like newborns.
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My opinion on this has changed a bit, once I was actually explained the rules and how new mastery would work.
Five stages for east beast and three week for each of those stages. It is nice, simple, and just more fair overall. o.o
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is much more forgiving imho.
You almost had me until you said that.
Why does it need to be forgiving? Why should it be easier for them? If they want to be hosts, then they should know they signed up for the task of defending and protecting themselves. 3 months versus 2 isn't a whole lot different when people can post once a week and make a fight last a year before they even scratch each other. Even in in-game time, 3 months (9 months) is almost 16 less years than it took two of the three Jinchuuriki that had more than 2 minutes of screen time to master their beasts. I know the majority of people don't use in-game time as how they age, but it's easier than making up numbers to prove my point. I don't think those who obtain, hold, or seek to obtain a Bijuu should be coddled like newborns.
If you're talking about a biju match, the moment that match starts, the host cannot use any powers that they would obtain over the course of outside RP. As far as regular fights go, it is very much similar, that they can't use those time powers until after that fight is done.
If the task of owning a biju is unforgiving in its entirety, then why would people who actually need to use thier power bother getting them? It would just get taken away by someone who doesn't actually need the power sometime during the tenure. Considering all of the rules and such involved with being a jinchurikii, why bother getting a biju if you actually need to use its full power to stay competitive?
Having hosts wait 3 weeks or wait 2 weeks, if they get into a biju match that lasts for that kind of time, I guess is hardly a difference, but then, that makes the aspect of making hosts wait a certain amount of time to get their power-up kind of moot then doesn't it?
If people abuse the time in that kind of fashion, to get into a rigged match for the sake of dragging it out during their entire (or even a large portion) of their tenure, shouldn't there be some sort of penalty for that? Shouldn't that kind of misconduct, which defeats the purpose of mastery times in the first place, be something of a red flag instead of justification to extend the time even more?
Besides, coddled like newborns would be giving them all the powerz on day 7 or even sooner. >_>
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15 weeks? >> Nah, I'm good. You guys without beasts have fun with that. To make someone have to fight for a beast, then take 15 weeks to master it while likely dealing with challenges is idiotic. This whole thing exemplifies why those without beasts should not have reign over those who do.
You are just asking for people to stall fights for ages until they master tails. 2 weeks per tail with RP as a way to speed up maybe a tails worth of progress was fine. >> Ya'll just keep making it easier to disregard the council of non-hosts, cheers~!
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15 weeks? >> Nah, I'm good. You guys without beasts have fun with that. To make someone have to fight for a beast, then take 15 weeks to master it while likely dealing with challenges is idiotic. This whole thing exemplifies why those without beasts should not have reign over those who do.
You are just asking for people to stall fights for ages until they master tails. 2 weeks per tail with RP as a way to speed up maybe a tails worth of progress was fine. >> Ya'll just keep making it easier to disregard the council of non-hosts, cheers~!
I find it very hard to warm to this person.
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15 weeks? >> Nah, I'm good. You guys without beasts have fun with that. To make someone have to fight for a beast, then take 15 weeks to master it while likely dealing with challenges is idiotic. This whole thing exemplifies why those without beasts should not have reign over those who do.
You are just asking for people to stall fights for ages until they master tails. 2 weeks per tail with RP as a way to speed up maybe a tails worth of progress was fine. >> Ya'll just keep making it easier to disregard the council of non-hosts, cheers~!
I find it very hard to warm to this person.
Hard to warm up to, sure, but I sorta agree. The new way of mastering a beast ain't bad and is more fair but if we get our choice preference.... Then I would go with this style of mastery.
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Two weeks per tails is an absolute joke. If only cause nobody should master the Ichibi in two weeks.
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Two weeks per tails is an absolute joke. If only cause nobody should master the Ichibi in two weeks.
How, if you don't mind me asking? Besides the chakra of the beast, Shukaku don't really give you shit >> he don't have a proper V1 cloak and doesn't even possess a V2 cloak. And he doesn't even give you sand now, last I checked.
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Two weeks per tails is an absolute joke. If only cause nobody should master the Ichibi in two weeks.
How, if you don't mind me asking? Besides the chakra of the beast, Shukaku don't really give you shit >> he don't have a proper V1 cloak and doesn't even possess a V2 cloak. And he doesn't even give you sand now, last I checked.
Pretty sure he still gives sand, he just wasn't the source of the sand being an automatic defense. He also gives some sealing jutsu and magnet release. And I'm pretty sure every biju can use a cloak. I just don't think Gaara ever had a chance to use it.
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Two weeks per tails is an absolute joke. If only cause nobody should master the Ichibi in two weeks.
How, if you don't mind me asking? Besides the chakra of the beast, Shukaku don't really give you shit >> he don't have a proper V1 cloak and doesn't even possess a V2 cloak. And he doesn't even give you sand now, last I checked.
Pretty sure he still gives sand, he just wasn't the source of the sand being an automatic defense. He also gives some sealing jutsu and magnet release. And I'm pretty sure every biju can use a cloak. I just don't think Gaara ever had a chance to use it.
I guess that's possible. But I always believed that tail number determined strength, like Kurama does in the Manga, even if it may not be the case. It's just always been that way for so long, and it's worked for years on end, too.
So long as people did the RPs in public and it was legit, it would count, and it was awesome. And inspired actual RP between Jinchuuriki, their beasts, and other hosts o.o
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I guess that's possible. But I always believed that tail number determined strength, like Kurama does in the Manga, even if it may not be the case. It's just always been that way for so long, and it's worked for years on end, too.
So long as people did the RPs in public and it was legit, it would count, and it was awesome. And inspired actual RP between Jinchuuriki, their beasts, and other hosts o.o
I think that's how it works in the series. Though, for SL purposes, I don't see any reason why any one bijuu should be more powerful than another. Personally, I think they should all be on the same level as far as SL goes, with each one granting unique passive/active abilities. But, people have those abilities (or better ones) regardless if they have a bijuu or not. It's not a perfect system.
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15 weeks? >> Nah, I'm good. You guys without beasts have fun with that. To make someone have to fight for a beast, then take 15 weeks to master it while likely dealing with challenges is idiotic. This whole thing exemplifies why those without beasts should not have reign over those who do.
You are just asking for people to stall fights for ages until they master tails. 2 weeks per tail with RP as a way to speed up maybe a tails worth of progress was fine. >> Ya'll just keep making it easier to disregard the council of non-hosts, cheers~!
Well there is a reason that hosts are not allowed to be on the biju Council, and I think your way of putting it pretty much exemplifies that, especially when a Council member disagreed wtih the timeframe for almost the same reason. Not to mention the rules are not made up excluesively by the biju council; the Community votes on the rules, all the Council does is enforce them at this current point in time, so the Council itself as a structure hardly has squat on whether this passes or not.
Hard to warm up to, sure, but I sorta agree. The new way of mastering a beast ain't bad and is more fair but if we get our choice preference.... Then I would go with this style of mastery.
Hitler-chan seemed adamantly against the new mastery system period, but you seem at least a little warm to it.
An IC system for mastering beasts would require hosts to RP and either take pictures or some other documentation to proveve that they did their RP. I'm not totally against that, but who is going to be checking behind these hosts? The Biju Council?
Two weeks per tails is an absolute joke. If only cause nobody should master the Ichibi in two weeks.
I agree that 2 weeks a tail is not the best way of going about it for the lower number tails, but as I said earlier, 15 weeks (that's nearly 4 months) is overkilling this; we already know at this stage of making the mastery rules that people are going to try to drag out biju matches, even Bocchiere as a force spirit would be scoffing at trying to psuh for something with a "please try to go around me" written all under it. Unless there is to be a penalty for obvious doing of this (and who makes the call on whether its obvious or not? The Biju Council? The judge for the match?) it's pointless making a rule that is begging to be loopholed.
I still propose to tuning it down to 2 weeks per stage. That's what, 10 weeks if I got my math right? Or maybe we need to rethink mastery altogether, because if short time constraints are seen as giveaways on power and RP verifications are unwanton bureacracy, then mastery should lean in the direction that encourages the most RP usage of the tailed beast, especially since IC hunts are still both WIP and potentially not even going to become a thing again.
Here is some food for thought. Mastering a tailed beast requires using its power, but not just using its power; training with that power in a setting that is appropiate for the power being trained. Each tailed beast perhaps can have a breakdown on what it takes to master the skills that each has (thus, the fewer canon perks, the easier to master).
For example, let's take say the 1-tails vs the 2-tails:
1-tails: tailed beast chakra, sand manipulation through magnet release, fuinjutsu, nightmare generation (not sure if anyone has actually tried to manipulate the 1-tails nightmare thing but I"m putting it on here in an attempt at completeness), and tailed beast transformations.
2-tails: tailed beast chakra, fire manipulation, and tailed beast transformations. And I think that is it.
It should be easier to master the 2-tails than the 1-tails then, by the logic of an abilities based system.
9-tails: tailed beast chakra, negative emotion sensing, rapid healing, and tailed beast transformations. Since the 9-tails chakra can't be split into Yin and Yang in SL, then I don't really count the enhanced mokuton growing property.
Would the 9-tails thus be easier to master than the 1-tails even though in the series the complete opposite seems to be the case? Well, the 9-tails' history is primarily what made it difficult to master, because who doesn't hate a master like Madara Uchiha? Gaara never utilized the sealing part of the 1-tails power, so arguably it could be said that he never mastered the beast; then again, that power probably was not added in until after Gaara lost the beast.
Anyways, the main trouble in mastering the 9-tails is that it has a significantly higher chakra capacity than the 1-tails, as demonstrated when its tailed beast ball visibly changed the trajectory of several other tailed beast balls. That takes more time to master than the 1-tails tailed beast chakra, by this system, but how much longer overall I admit is still a TBD kind of thing.
Eating some of my own food then,, what if rather than making a mastery system that blankets over all of the beasts, that we take the time to make a custom mastery for each and every single tailed beast? Would that not make tiering and such reasonable between the beasts?
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I don't know if I can post in here but, what about tailed beasts who we actually don't know much about like 7 tails. Aside from wings, the powder, and silk there isn't much that we know about 7 tails so what then?
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I don't know if I can post in here but, what about tailed beasts who we actually don't know much about like 7 tails. Aside from wings, the powder, and silk there isn't much that we know about 7 tails so what then?
Yeah you can post in here, this is a rule discussion thread.
The wings, the powder, and the silk are three different things. That's still more than the 2-tails.
I am not 100% famaliar with SL add-ons to biju abilities, that my knowledge has a sizeable gap. However, as far a canon abilities go, whatever we know from the canon is what we would go with. Again, I"m not famaliar with the non-canon biju abilities, I do not recall that thread on the abilities of the tailed beasts ever formally being put up.
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15 weeks? >> Nah, I'm good. You guys without beasts have fun with that. To make someone have to fight for a beast, then take 15 weeks to master it while likely dealing with challenges is idiotic. This whole thing exemplifies why those without beasts should not have reign over those who do.
You are just asking for people to stall fights for ages until they master tails. 2 weeks per tail with RP as a way to speed up maybe a tails worth of progress was fine. >> Ya'll just keep making it easier to disregard the council of non-hosts, cheers~!
Well there is a reason that hosts are not allowed to be on the biju Council, and I think your way of putting it pretty much exemplifies that, especially when a Council member disagreed wtih the timeframe for almost the same reason. Not to mention the rules are not made up excluesively by the biju council; the Community votes on the rules, all the Council does is enforce them at this current point in time, so the Council itself as a structure hardly has squat on whether this passes or not.
Hard to warm up to, sure, but I sorta agree. The new way of mastering a beast ain't bad and is more fair but if we get our choice preference.... Then I would go with this style of mastery.
Hitler-chan seemed adamantly against the new mastery system period, but you seem at least a little warm to it.
An IC system for mastering beasts would require hosts to RP and either take pictures or some other documentation to proveve that they did their RP. I'm not totally against that, but who is going to be checking behind these hosts? The Biju Council?
Two weeks per tails is an absolute joke. If only cause nobody should master the Ichibi in two weeks.
I agree that 2 weeks a tail is not the best way of going about it for the lower number tails, but as I said earlier, 15 weeks (that's nearly 4 months) is overkilling this; we already know at this stage of making the mastery rules that people are going to try to drag out biju matches, even Bocchiere as a force spirit would be scoffing at trying to psuh for something with a "please try to go around me" written all under it. Unless there is to be a penalty for obvious doing of this (and who makes the call on whether its obvious or not? The Biju Council? The judge for the match?) it's pointless making a rule that is begging to be loopholed.
I still propose to tuning it down to 2 weeks per stage. That's what, 10 weeks if I got my math right? Or maybe we need to rethink mastery altogether, because if short time constraints are seen as giveaways on power and RP verifications are unwanton bureacracy, then mastery should lean in the direction that encourages the most RP usage of the tailed beast, especially since IC hunts are still both WIP and potentially not even going to become a thing again.
Here is some food for thought. Mastering a tailed beast requires using its power, but not just using its power; training with that power in a setting that is appropiate for the power being trained. Each tailed beast perhaps can have a breakdown on what it takes to master the skills that each has (thus, the fewer canon perks, the easier to master).
For example, let's take say the 1-tails vs the 2-tails:
1-tails: tailed beast chakra, sand manipulation through magnet release, fuinjutsu, nightmare generation (not sure if anyone has actually tried to manipulate the 1-tails nightmare thing but I"m putting it on here in an attempt at completeness), and tailed beast transformations.
2-tails: tailed beast chakra, fire manipulation, and tailed beast transformations. And I think that is it.
It should be easier to master the 2-tails than the 1-tails then, by the logic of an abilities based system.
9-tails: tailed beast chakra, negative emotion sensing, rapid healing, and tailed beast transformations. Since the 9-tails chakra can't be split into Yin and Yang in SL, then I don't really count the enhanced mokuton growing property.
Would the 9-tails thus be easier to master than the 1-tails even though in the series the complete opposite seems to be the case? Well, the 9-tails' history is primarily what made it difficult to master, because who doesn't hate a master like Madara Uchiha? Gaara never utilized the sealing part of the 1-tails power, so arguably it could be said that he never mastered the beast; then again, that power probably was not added in until after Gaara lost the beast.
Anyways, the main trouble in mastering the 9-tails is that it has a significantly higher chakra capacity than the 1-tails, as demonstrated when its tailed beast ball visibly changed the trajectory of several other tailed beast balls. That takes more time to master than the 1-tails tailed beast chakra, by this system, but how much longer overall I admit is still a TBD kind of thing.
Eating some of my own food then,, what if rather than making a mastery system that blankets over all of the beasts, that we take the time to make a custom mastery for each and every single tailed beast? Would that not make tiering and such reasonable between the beasts?
I hate to admit it (I really do, nothing personal, just a combative soul) but I agree with a lot of what he suggested here. Mind you, the beast I own is already mastered so there is nothing for me to gain out of this >> I just hate the idea of people having to spend months mastering the 'lower' level beasts. The high level beasts are more sought after 'generally' and will be fought for more by higher level targets, where as the lower numbers more attainable. Trying real hard not to sound like an ass (for once), but if you look at the history of the Bijuu battles it's sorta shows. Even with me, started with the three tails and moved on up to the eight after several years.
Should seriously consider some of the stuff Eric suggested regarding custom requirements for each beast. Easy to document and verify (if needed) and should satiate all of the people who adamantly believe power should be incredibly hard to obtain. (Just can't help it >>)
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If the IC hunt is going to be banned then none of this mastery stuff matters either.
We are not going to make someone RP a hunt but we will make them RP training with their beast? Why? Because they can get along with themselves long enough to do it?
pft.
If you want mastery of a bijuu to exist, then have someone else role play the bijuu.
I foresee a day when the GMs don't get to do anything but bijuu stuff.
lol
seriously...none of this matters if you are not going to be IC all the way. The bijuu are not RP. They are a game of capture the flag and status, pure and simple.
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If the IC hunt is going to be banned then none of this mastery stuff matters either.
We are not going to make someone RP a hunt but we will make them RP training with their beast? Why? Because they can get along with themselves long enough to do it?
pft.
If you want mastery of a bijuu to exist, then have someone else role play the bijuu.
I foresee a day when the GMs don't get to do anything but bijuu stuff.
lol
seriously...none of this matters if you are not going to be IC all the way. The bijuu are not RP. They are a game of capture the flag and status, pure and simple.
I quite agree with this, but I thought having hunts was a preference to the host?
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If the IC hunt is going to be banned then none of this mastery stuff matters either.
We are not going to make someone RP a hunt but we will make them RP training with their beast? Why? Because they can get along with themselves long enough to do it?
pft.
If you want mastery of a bijuu to exist, then have someone else role play the bijuu.
I foresee a day when the GMs don't get to do anything but bijuu stuff.
lol
seriously...none of this matters if you are not going to be IC all the way. The bijuu are not RP. They are a game of capture the flag and status, pure and simple.
The IC hunt wasn't an option for awhile to stop bickering and the beast were still IC. The IC hunt has countless problems, ones I pointed out, and they need to be fixed before it can be an option.
I've done IC hunts and they've been fun, but not everyone likes fighting people by themselves to defend a beast. That is a choice. And if we take that choice away just to make IC hunts work, it is basically scripted for the host to give themselves up on a silver platter.
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If the IC hunt is going to be banned then none of this mastery stuff matters either...
I mean if that's really the sentiment, we might as well let people master the biju day 7 instead of making 'em wait. What good is a trophy if it aint shiny when you show it off. :P