Shinobi Legends Forum
Roleplay => Village Square => Topic started by: KayentaMoenkopi on October 06, 2016, 02:42:28 AM
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SO I read one of the fights, at least the concluding post. this will have no baring on the fight at all. I just want to gain some knowledge.
Unfortunately for Teostra, the chains wouldn't break. In fact the moment he touched the chains he would be immobilized to an extent and in a great deal of pain, as the chains Ray used were the demonic statue chains. Since the chains themselves are capable of ensnaring the tailed beasts with little effort. The only way out of the chains would be through an outside force though the Ray wouldn't let him try anything funny.
Seeing as the chains had snagged Teo into place, Ray was able to see his location thanks to the Rinnegan's ability to see chakra. From here Ray would muster up nearly 60% of his overall chakra to send Teo into his own kamui dimension via Flying Thunder God. Since Teo is in constant contact with Ray's chakra when touching the chains, the FTG tech would allow Ray to instantaneously send someone or something to a marker at the cost of a severe amount of chakra. The marker Teo would be sent to, would be the marker Ray had placed in his kamui dimension meaning Teo had no way of escape and would be trapped in an abyss.
SInce Ray used up 60% of his overall chakra, He would have a hard time even breathing as he would fall backwards atop his Rex's head and breathed heavy like trying to remain conscious. Of course should Teo somehow escape then Ray would have never of lost the 60% chakra and wouldn't be tuckered out though the likelihood of that was low.
Hiraishin
And sorry Ray and Teostra...not trying to pick on anyone. I just have a question.
a few...
I think this move is not legit. why? Well maybe I just don't know how stuff works.
1] The rinnegan is active...the detection of Teo's chakra, the demonic statue chains
2] Rinnegan can't open Kamui pockets...and one is not activated?
3] Hiraishin cannot transport people across dimensions, only through the current one they are upon.
ok everyone, please point out why my assumptions here are wrong? I need some education.
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This is the sort of thing better suited for PM's, if you just wanted to solicit information I am sure you could have written a spam message and sent it out. D: Just putting the guy on blast is rude as shit.
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I believe that this would be a good thing to discuss, because it pertains to using a technique that MANY people use. And since the decision for the fight has already been made, there should be no reason to not talk about it :)
But I agree that I was a little confused on the whole situation as well. I always thought that using Kamui to transport something required you to actually either be looking at it or in direct (or close) contact with it. We've seen it with Tobi doing it to those two ninja he captured from Danzo's crew. But, it looks like he basically teleported Kamui with Hiraishin to its destination (Teostra) through the chakra chains as a medium. Doesn't Hiraishin require a marker to be placed on an object before it can be transported? Kamui is more of a conceptual technique than a physical one. I can understand maybe putting a marker on a fireball and teleporting it to another marker, but, kamui operates by focusing on a single point with your eyes and warping that thing you're looking at.
I really have no idea how it would be possible to warp something that literally can not be marked. It'd be like trying to yell out, place a marker on the word you just yelled, and teleport it over to some other place. It'd be a very convoluted way to be a ventriloquist, that's for sure lol
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I don't feel picked on, and hell I would be asking questions too. But From what I read Hiraishin can be used with marker or the creators chakra right? The demonic statue chains are made up of my chakra, and since it is connected to Teostra he is touching my chakra. Using the chains as a medium I used Hirishin to teleport Teo to my Kamui dimension on which a marker was already in place. Now in between those actions I had to muster up 60% of my overall chakra, there is a point to where he could have broken the chains and fled, though sturdy the chains can break. I mean hate me for if you will, I was using the canon logic,
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Had this same issue with Ichirou awhile back. Overall it was in my favor.
FTG allows you to teleport only in one dimension. Remember that when Obito or Kakashi go into their dimension that their chakra completely disappears. That's one reason I believe FTG can't work in Kamui. The chakra is cut off thus can't teleport to a chakra source that isn't 'there'.
If you were on one side of your kamui dimension and then had another seal in the dimension 500 miles away, sure. But having it work on 2 (or at this point) all dimensional plains isn't something I see as true.
It allows the user to teleport to any pre-destined location via mark on the same dimensional plain.
Also for everything ever to go into or out of the Kamui dimension they've had to use the actual jutsu.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Obito have a FTG seal on him? Yet during the whole thing with black zetsu and all that never once did Naruto or Minato FTG him.
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We've never seen it utilized in that kind of manner though. Saying that Hiraishin would be able to transport things across dimensions is a little far-fetched. Because dimensions have no way of communicating to each other without some kind of medium (kamui/Kaguya's ability) that allows for that communication, you should effectively be cut off from that. Shadow I think explained it the best.
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I'm not one to be a dick about disproving why something I did didn't work. So if Teo or Warren pointed this out, I would of said "Oh okay" And went about things a separate way I had thought up in case this one I did post was vetoed.
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I think Flying Thunder God should work considering:
1. All Space-Time jutsu work on a similar principal.
2. Using a Space-Time jutsu to leave a dimension has been done (Obito's use of Kamui to access Kaguya's Dimensions, Edo Tensei summoning souls from the Pure Land, Sasuke's use of his jutsu to move from Kaguya's Dimensions and back, the use of Space-Time Ninjutsu to move from Momoshiki's planet and back, Sasuke was able to teleport Madara's Limbo Clone (which reside in another dimension) and Hagoromo's summoning of both the dead and alive from the Pure Land and Kaguya's Dimensions. So there are plenty of examples of this being done.
3. There hasn't been any evidence suggesting it wouldn't work. If anything, at most it seems to me that it would cost more chakra on part of the user to move things across dimensions (Sasuke's eyes weakening, the chakra toll on Obito, Kaguya's own use of her jutsu, etc.)
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Had this same issue with Ichirou awhile back. Overall it was in my favor.
FTG allows you to teleport only in one dimension. Remember that when Obito or Kakashi go into their dimension that their chakra completely disappears. That's one reason I believe FTG can't work in Kamui. The chakra is cut off thus can't teleport to a chakra source that isn't 'there'.
If you were on one side of your kamui dimension and then had another seal in the dimension 500 miles away, sure. But having it work on 2 (or at this point) all dimensional plains isn't something I see as true.
It allows the user to teleport to any pre-destined location via mark on the same dimensional plain.
Also for everything ever to go into or out of the Kamui dimension they've had to use the actual jutsu.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Obito have a FTG seal on him? Yet during the whole thing with black zetsu and all that never once did Naruto or Minato FTG him.
They used it once when they were fighting him, but I'm fairly certain at some point Obito removes it.
Also, it almost every case, hiraishin needs a seal to use, it's one fair and I don't recall it ever being done without hiraishin. Many people on SL have tried to pull a hiraishin without seal and almost always lose in a judge decisions. Cause they just do rain tiger at will, and say they can hiraishin everything since there chakra is everywhere.
Hiraishin without seal = big no
Going to a different dimension is up to debate
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I think Flying Thunder God should work considering:
1. All Space-Time jutsu work on a similar principal.
2. Using a Space-Time jutsu to leave a dimension has been done (Obito's use of Kamui to access Kaguya's Dimensions, Edo Tensei summoning souls from the Pure Land, Sasuke's use of his jutsu to move from Kaguya's Dimensions and back, the use of Space-Time Ninjutsu to move from Momoshiki's planet and back, Sasuke was able to teleport Madara's Limbo Clone (which reside in another dimension) and Hagoromo's summoning of both the dead and alive from the Pure Land and Kaguya's Dimensions. So there are plenty of examples of this being done.
3. There hasn't been any evidence suggesting it wouldn't work. If anything, at most it seems to me that it would cost more chakra on part of the user to move things across dimensions (Sasuke's eyes weakening, the chakra toll on Obito, Kaguya's own use of her jutsu, etc.)
Using a space-time ninjutsu to travel to another dimension has been done, yes, but none of those jutsu were Hiraishin.
Your third point is an argument from ignorance. You can't make up a conclusion that it would work, albeit at the cost of greater chakra, simply because there's no evidence to the contrary.
In fact, absence of evidence, which is the failure to observe evidence for a particular hypothesis (in this case the hypothesis that "using hiraishin to travel to another dimension is possible, albeit at a greater chakra cost"), is evidence against that hypothesis.
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If the portal to the Kamui dimension were opened while the hiraishin action is going on, I personally believe hiraishin would work in that case, since there is a portal open, meaning that to trap a hirasihin user inside of a kamui, in my opinion, require the trapper to effectively not use kamui for even a split moment, as the temporary reconnection to the other side would be just enough for a hiraishin user to bust their move.
In the series, hiraishining without a marker, and using chakra only, had been done during the 4th Great War arc (I forget where, this particular topic has definitely been discussed before) and a fair many considered it to be unsuitable for SL use, believe it or not.
Now, it's up to the judge to go one way or another, but I would have ruled against a Kamui usage with Rinnegan active, nevermind the hiraishin thing.
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In the series, hiraishining without a marker, and using chakra only, had been done during the 4th Great War arc (I forget where, this particular topic has definitely been discussed before) and a fair many considered it to be unsuitable for SL use, believe it or not.
Not particularly related to the topic at hand, but isn't there a rule against using stuff from that part of the series? Or is that just a suggestion?
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In the series, hiraishining without a marker, and using chakra only, had been done during the 4th Great War arc (I forget where, this particular topic has definitely been discussed before) and a fair many considered it to be unsuitable for SL use, believe it or not.
Not particularly related to the topic at hand, but isn't there a rule against using stuff from that part of the series? Or is that just a suggestion?
It's not an official rule at all. More like an agreement between certain players in the community. Were there anything official about it, I'm sure it would be an actual Biju rule.
A Tomoe-variant of the Rinnegan like Sasuke's is able to perform Mangekyou techniques, but it is inferred that this is merely the normal variant.
From what we've seen of Hiraishin, it only performs intra-dimensional travel. Amenotejikara is also able to do this. Techniques like Kamui, Amenominaka, Yomotsu Hirasaka, and Sasuke's unnamed dimension-traveling jutsu (which is granted by his special Rinnegan) allow inter-dimensional travel. Some can debate that the Summoning Technique when fueled with a vast amount of chakra (Hagoromo + all past kages) is also capable of doing both.
In short this situation should not be possible, but it is something both participants and judge rolled with. Things like this happen, and it's usually wise to consult with others on the nature and ability of certain things being performed in high-stake situations.
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Just for clarification, I did not agree with the action which is why I contacted the judge. Judge agreed with his actions and told me I could seek a separate judge, and I decided not to because it would have had to be a mutual agreement between myself and Ray. I got tired of contesting actions, which is why I just decided to let Ray win. I don't believe that it is a fair or even doable move, but I would rather just not have to put up with more like that. Considering the repost was pretty much the same thing as the initial post I had problems with, I decided not to deal with the headache of contesting it. Glad to know that what happened was bad on his end, so if it ever happens again it can just be written off as void.
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I think Flying Thunder God should work considering:
1. All Space-Time jutsu work on a similar principal.
2. Using a Space-Time jutsu to leave a dimension has been done (Obito's use of Kamui to access Kaguya's Dimensions, Edo Tensei summoning souls from the Pure Land, Sasuke's use of his jutsu to move from Kaguya's Dimensions and back, the use of Space-Time Ninjutsu to move from Momoshiki's planet and back, Sasuke was able to teleport Madara's Limbo Clone (which reside in another dimension) and Hagoromo's summoning of both the dead and alive from the Pure Land and Kaguya's Dimensions. So there are plenty of examples of this being done.
3. There hasn't been any evidence suggesting it wouldn't work. If anything, at most it seems to me that it would cost more chakra on part of the user to move things across dimensions (Sasuke's eyes weakening, the chakra toll on Obito, Kaguya's own use of her jutsu, etc.)
Using a space-time ninjutsu to travel to another dimension has been done, yes, but none of those jutsu were Hiraishin.
Your third point is an argument from ignorance. You can't make up a conclusion that it would work, albeit at the cost of greater chakra, simply because there's no evidence to the contrary.
In fact, absence of evidence, which is the failure to observe evidence for a particular hypothesis (in this case the hypothesis that "using hiraishin to travel to another dimension is possible, albeit at a greater chakra cost"), is evidence against that hypothesis.
But why would Hiraishin be the special case if other space-time jutsu work in a similar manner? (I think as long as you have a seal placed in our world, one could make their way back) We would have to have evidence that Kamui has a sort of special Space-Time negation ability.
Its speculation sure, but I backed it up with support (what exactly the series shows happens when a Space-Time jutsu is used to escape another dimension almost every single time). Isn't equally ignorant to assume since we haven't seen Flying Thunder God do it, that it cannot? We need to look at the series itself and make a judgement on it, and to me, Kamui doesn't seem like it would stop this process for any particular reason.
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I think Flying Thunder God should work considering:
1. All Space-Time jutsu work on a similar principal.
2. Using a Space-Time jutsu to leave a dimension has been done (Obito's use of Kamui to access Kaguya's Dimensions, Edo Tensei summoning souls from the Pure Land, Sasuke's use of his jutsu to move from Kaguya's Dimensions and back, the use of Space-Time Ninjutsu to move from Momoshiki's planet and back, Sasuke was able to teleport Madara's Limbo Clone (which reside in another dimension) and Hagoromo's summoning of both the dead and alive from the Pure Land and Kaguya's Dimensions. So there are plenty of examples of this being done.
3. There hasn't been any evidence suggesting it wouldn't work. If anything, at most it seems to me that it would cost more chakra on part of the user to move things across dimensions (Sasuke's eyes weakening, the chakra toll on Obito, Kaguya's own use of her jutsu, etc.)
Using a space-time ninjutsu to travel to another dimension has been done, yes, but none of those jutsu were Hiraishin.
Your third point is an argument from ignorance. You can't make up a conclusion that it would work, albeit at the cost of greater chakra, simply because there's no evidence to the contrary.
In fact, absence of evidence, which is the failure to observe evidence for a particular hypothesis (in this case the hypothesis that "using hiraishin to travel to another dimension is possible, albeit at a greater chakra cost"), is evidence against that hypothesis.
But why would Hiraishin be the special case if other space-time jutsu work in a similar manner? (I think as long as you have a seal placed in our world, one could make their way back) We would have to have evidence that Kamui has a sort of special Space-Time negation ability.
Its speculation sure, but I backed it up with support (what exactly the series shows happens when a Space-Time jutsu is used to escape another dimension almost every single time). Isn't equally ignorant to assume since we haven't seen Flying Thunder God do it, that it cannot? We need to look at the series itself and make a judgement on it, and to me, Kamui doesn't seem like it would stop this process for any particular reason.
Based on the observed trend (that most space-time ninjutsu allow for interdimensional travel), it's reasonable to suspect that hiraishin would allow you to do the same. However, making that assumption without due evidence is wrong because as empirical studies often show, there can be exceptions to the rule.
Like you said, when need to go off of the evidence the show provides, and it has provided no evidence that hiraishin allows for interdimensional travel.
In order to point out the flawed reasoning of your question, I have to ask you this: Is it ignorant to assume that since we've never seen a horse fly, that they therefore cannot?
Also bringing up the kamui thing is a separate issue, since I've yet to see anyone on this thread assert that kamui somehow stops hiraishin from moving between dimensions - simply that hiraishin itself cannot.
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If you follow data books 100% then only 'negation' you can do with kamui is people trying to port themselves or stuff into your kamui, which is what Obito did when Kakashi tried decapitating Gedo Mazo.
As for hiraishin, it teleports you by taking you to the dimensional void, which we can assume is an empty space between all dimensions, then dumping you back in at the marker you went to. Following this line of thought, while true there isn't anything saying you can use it to instead go to some other dimension than the one you left from, there isn't anything saying you can't do it either.
Considering that, its possible at least in theory if your marker already existed at the other dimension, much like how Obito 'marked' one of Kaguya's dimensions. One can however argue that due to Hiraishin not being originally meant to go to completely different dimensions, not to mention distance between dimensions would also make it worse since distance is a cost-defining factor for Hiraishin, much like Obito's synchronizing of Kamui with Kaguya's Yomotsu Hirasaka it'd likely take a metric fuckton of chakra to make the trip.
It should probably also be kept in mind that unlike Hiraishin which dumps you in the void between dimensions, Kamui wormhole actually bridges the two for direct passage.
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I think Flying Thunder God should work considering:
1. All Space-Time jutsu work on a similar principal.
2. Using a Space-Time jutsu to leave a dimension has been done (Obito's use of Kamui to access Kaguya's Dimensions, Edo Tensei summoning souls from the Pure Land, Sasuke's use of his jutsu to move from Kaguya's Dimensions and back, the use of Space-Time Ninjutsu to move from Momoshiki's planet and back, Sasuke was able to teleport Madara's Limbo Clone (which reside in another dimension) and Hagoromo's summoning of both the dead and alive from the Pure Land and Kaguya's Dimensions. So there are plenty of examples of this being done.
3. There hasn't been any evidence suggesting it wouldn't work. If anything, at most it seems to me that it would cost more chakra on part of the user to move things across dimensions (Sasuke's eyes weakening, the chakra toll on Obito, Kaguya's own use of her jutsu, etc.)
Using a space-time ninjutsu to travel to another dimension has been done, yes, but none of those jutsu were Hiraishin.
Your third point is an argument from ignorance. You can't make up a conclusion that it would work, albeit at the cost of greater chakra, simply because there's no evidence to the contrary.
In fact, absence of evidence, which is the failure to observe evidence for a particular hypothesis (in this case the hypothesis that "using hiraishin to travel to another dimension is possible, albeit at a greater chakra cost"), is evidence against that hypothesis.
But why would Hiraishin be the special case if other space-time jutsu work in a similar manner? (I think as long as you have a seal placed in our world, one could make their way back) We would have to have evidence that Kamui has a sort of special Space-Time negation ability.
Its speculation sure, but I backed it up with support (what exactly the series shows happens when a Space-Time jutsu is used to escape another dimension almost every single time). Isn't equally ignorant to assume since we haven't seen Flying Thunder God do it, that it cannot? We need to look at the series itself and make a judgement on it, and to me, Kamui doesn't seem like it would stop this process for any particular reason.
Based on the observed trend (that most space-time ninjutsu allow for interdimensional travel), it's reasonable to suspect that hiraishin would allow you to do the same. However, making that assumption without due evidence is wrong because as empirical studies often show, there can be exceptions to the rule.
Like you said, when need to go off of the evidence the show provides, and it has provided no evidence that hiraishin allows for interdimensional travel.
In order to point out the flawed reasoning of your question, I have to ask you this: Is it ignorant to assume that since we've never seen a horse fly, that they therefore cannot?
Also bringing up the kamui thing is a separate issue, since I've yet to see anyone on this thread assert that kamui somehow stops hiraishin from moving between dimensions - simply that hiraishin itself cannot.
What exception? Without said exception even present, its simply a matter of "what you want" rather than "is it reasonably possible". Until proven otherwise, to stick such a limitation on the jutsu in unfounded.
That horse fly analogy isn't even close to this. Even if we never saw a horse fly, we know based on evidence that it lacks the capabilities to do so. If this argument was valid, there would have to be evidence that Flying Thunder God only allows for travel in one dimension, which there is none.
Actually Shadow brought up his reason as to why he believes Kamui prevents Flying Thunder God. So I put it out there to ask what exactly is so different about other dimensions such as Kamui, that would prevent a user of Flying Thunder God to manipulate the Space-Time continuum? I just think, based on the use of other Space-Time jutsu that has preformed this feat (another example is Sasuke summoning his Hawk into Kaguya's dimension), that it is far more reasonable to say, "yes it can" rather than "no it cannot". Even though Hiraishin itself hasn't been shown to do that, to me, its like assuming "fire cannot burn down a building because i've only seen it burn paper all my life." Well logically, unless there is something special about the building (in this case other dimensions like Kamui) fire should still it burn regardless.
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I think Flying Thunder God should work considering:
1. All Space-Time jutsu work on a similar principal.
2. Using a Space-Time jutsu to leave a dimension has been done (Obito's use of Kamui to access Kaguya's Dimensions, Edo Tensei summoning souls from the Pure Land, Sasuke's use of his jutsu to move from Kaguya's Dimensions and back, the use of Space-Time Ninjutsu to move from Momoshiki's planet and back, Sasuke was able to teleport Madara's Limbo Clone (which reside in another dimension) and Hagoromo's summoning of both the dead and alive from the Pure Land and Kaguya's Dimensions. So there are plenty of examples of this being done.
3. There hasn't been any evidence suggesting it wouldn't work. If anything, at most it seems to me that it would cost more chakra on part of the user to move things across dimensions (Sasuke's eyes weakening, the chakra toll on Obito, Kaguya's own use of her jutsu, etc.)
Using a space-time ninjutsu to travel to another dimension has been done, yes, but none of those jutsu were Hiraishin.
Your third point is an argument from ignorance. You can't make up a conclusion that it would work, albeit at the cost of greater chakra, simply because there's no evidence to the contrary.
In fact, absence of evidence, which is the failure to observe evidence for a particular hypothesis (in this case the hypothesis that "using hiraishin to travel to another dimension is possible, albeit at a greater chakra cost"), is evidence against that hypothesis.
But why would Hiraishin be the special case if other space-time jutsu work in a similar manner? (I think as long as you have a seal placed in our world, one could make their way back) We would have to have evidence that Kamui has a sort of special Space-Time negation ability.
Its speculation sure, but I backed it up with support (what exactly the series shows happens when a Space-Time jutsu is used to escape another dimension almost every single time). Isn't equally ignorant to assume since we haven't seen Flying Thunder God do it, that it cannot? We need to look at the series itself and make a judgement on it, and to me, Kamui doesn't seem like it would stop this process for any particular reason.
Based on the observed trend (that most space-time ninjutsu allow for interdimensional travel), it's reasonable to suspect that hiraishin would allow you to do the same. However, making that assumption without due evidence is wrong because as empirical studies often show, there can be exceptions to the rule.
Like you said, when need to go off of the evidence the show provides, and it has provided no evidence that hiraishin allows for interdimensional travel.
In order to point out the flawed reasoning of your question, I have to ask you this: Is it ignorant to assume that since we've never seen a horse fly, that they therefore cannot?
Also bringing up the kamui thing is a separate issue, since I've yet to see anyone on this thread assert that kamui somehow stops hiraishin from moving between dimensions - simply that hiraishin itself cannot.
What exception? Without said exception even present, its simply a matter of "what you want" rather than "is it reasonably possible". Until proven otherwise, to stick such a limitation on the jutsu in unfounded.
That horse fly analogy isn't even close to this. Even if we never saw a horse fly, we know based on evidence that it lacks the capabilities to do so. If this argument was valid, there would have to be evidence that Flying Thunder God only allows for travel in one dimension, which there is none.
Actually Shadow brought up his reason as to why he believes Kamui prevents Flying Thunder God. So I put it out there to ask what exactly is so different about other dimensions such as Kamui, that would prevent a user of Flying Thunder God to manipulate the Space-Time continuum? I just think, based on the use of other Space-Time jutsu that has preformed this feat (another example is Sasuke summoning his Hawk into Kaguya's dimension), that it is far more reasonable to say, "yes it can" rather than "no it cannot". Even though Hiraishin itself hasn't been shown to do that, to me, its like assuming "fire cannot burn down a building because i've only seen it burn paper all my life." Well logically, unless there is something special about the building (in this case other dimensions like Kamui) fire should still it burn regardless.
Lol, the exception to this case (that jikukan ninjutsu allow for interdimensional travel) is hiraishin, since there is no evidence showing it does.
The horse analogy is exactly the same argument that was made. All I have to say is that there's no evidence against the fact that horses can't just fly through some other means (since they clearly lack the anatomical equipment that is necessary for flight). "Well theres no evidence against the fact that horses fly using fairy dust when no one is looking, therefore it's true!" This is why arguments that assert that something is true based on a lack of evidence to the contrary are flawed. I don't see what's hard to understand about that.
Here's another example: Russell 's Teapot. "If I were to suggest that between the earth and mars they're is a china teapot revolving around the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should be thought to be talking nonsense." - Bertrand Russell
Basically, even though it makes sense, to conclude that hiraishin allows for interdimensional travel is not only a hypothesis that lacks evidence from the show, it is an unfalsifiable one (since there is no way for us to disprove this hypothesis save for asking Kishimoto himself). That's why you shouldn't make that conclusion.
That's also a bad analogy because the only reason that conclusion is logical to us is because we have mountains of evidence that shows that fire can burn buildings, and we therefore use inductive reasoning to reach that conclusion.
If you were the person who had only seen fire burn paper, then that wouldn't be a logical conclusion to you at all.
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Also I must have missed the mention of kamui stopping hiraishin somehow. My apologies for that.
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I think Flying Thunder God should work considering:
1. All Space-Time jutsu work on a similar principal.
2. Using a Space-Time jutsu to leave a dimension has been done (Obito's use of Kamui to access Kaguya's Dimensions, Edo Tensei summoning souls from the Pure Land, Sasuke's use of his jutsu to move from Kaguya's Dimensions and back, the use of Space-Time Ninjutsu to move from Momoshiki's planet and back, Sasuke was able to teleport Madara's Limbo Clone (which reside in another dimension) and Hagoromo's summoning of both the dead and alive from the Pure Land and Kaguya's Dimensions. So there are plenty of examples of this being done.
3. There hasn't been any evidence suggesting it wouldn't work. If anything, at most it seems to me that it would cost more chakra on part of the user to move things across dimensions (Sasuke's eyes weakening, the chakra toll on Obito, Kaguya's own use of her jutsu, etc.)
Using a space-time ninjutsu to travel to another dimension has been done, yes, but none of those jutsu were Hiraishin.
Your third point is an argument from ignorance. You can't make up a conclusion that it would work, albeit at the cost of greater chakra, simply because there's no evidence to the contrary.
In fact, absence of evidence, which is the failure to observe evidence for a particular hypothesis (in this case the hypothesis that "using hiraishin to travel to another dimension is possible, albeit at a greater chakra cost"), is evidence against that hypothesis.
But why would Hiraishin be the special case if other space-time jutsu work in a similar manner? (I think as long as you have a seal placed in our world, one could make their way back) We would have to have evidence that Kamui has a sort of special Space-Time negation ability.
Its speculation sure, but I backed it up with support (what exactly the series shows happens when a Space-Time jutsu is used to escape another dimension almost every single time). Isn't equally ignorant to assume since we haven't seen Flying Thunder God do it, that it cannot? We need to look at the series itself and make a judgement on it, and to me, Kamui doesn't seem like it would stop this process for any particular reason.
Based on the observed trend (that most space-time ninjutsu allow for interdimensional travel), it's reasonable to suspect that hiraishin would allow you to do the same. However, making that assumption without due evidence is wrong because as empirical studies often show, there can be exceptions to the rule.
Like you said, when need to go off of the evidence the show provides, and it has provided no evidence that hiraishin allows for interdimensional travel.
In order to point out the flawed reasoning of your question, I have to ask you this: Is it ignorant to assume that since we've never seen a horse fly, that they therefore cannot?
Also bringing up the kamui thing is a separate issue, since I've yet to see anyone on this thread assert that kamui somehow stops hiraishin from moving between dimensions - simply that hiraishin itself cannot.
What exception? Without said exception even present, its simply a matter of "what you want" rather than "is it reasonably possible". Until proven otherwise, to stick such a limitation on the jutsu in unfounded.
That horse fly analogy isn't even close to this. Even if we never saw a horse fly, we know based on evidence that it lacks the capabilities to do so. If this argument was valid, there would have to be evidence that Flying Thunder God only allows for travel in one dimension, which there is none.
Actually Shadow brought up his reason as to why he believes Kamui prevents Flying Thunder God. So I put it out there to ask what exactly is so different about other dimensions such as Kamui, that would prevent a user of Flying Thunder God to manipulate the Space-Time continuum? I just think, based on the use of other Space-Time jutsu that has preformed this feat (another example is Sasuke summoning his Hawk into Kaguya's dimension), that it is far more reasonable to say, "yes it can" rather than "no it cannot". Even though Hiraishin itself hasn't been shown to do that, to me, its like assuming "fire cannot burn down a building because i've only seen it burn paper all my life." Well logically, unless there is something special about the building (in this case other dimensions like Kamui) fire should still it burn regardless.
Lol, the exception to this case (that jikukan ninjutsu allow for interdimensional travel) is hiraishin, since there is no evidence showing it does.
The horse analogy is exactly the same argument that was made. All I have to say is that there's no evidence against the fact that horses can't just fly through some other means (since they clearly lack the anatomical equipment that is necessary for flight). "Well theres no evidence against the fact that horses fly using fairy dust when no one is looking, therefore it's true!" This is why arguments that assert that something is true based on a lack of evidence to the contrary are flawed. I don't see what's hard to understand about that.
Here's another example: Russell 's Teapot. "If I were to suggest that between the earth and mars they're is a china teapot revolving around the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should be thought to be talking nonsense." - Bertrand Russell
Basically, even though it makes sense, to conclude that hiraishin allows for interdimensional travel is not only a hypothesis that lacks evidence from the show, it is an unfalsifiable one (since there is no way for us to disprove this hypothesis save for asking Kishimoto himself). That's why you shouldn't make that conclusion.
That's also a bad analogy because the only reason that conclusion is logical to us is because we have mountains of evidence that shows that fire can burn buildings, and we therefore use inductive reasoning to reach that conclusion.
If you were the person who had only seen fire burn paper, then that wouldn't be a logical conclusion to you at all.
lol I just don't see how its reasonable at all to say its the exception when we've seen a Space-Time jutsu of lower caliber transcend dimensions and the fact nothing even hints to the contrary, so why not until something proves otherwise?
I think you misunderstand me when it came to the 3rd point. It was to say there is nothing close to hinting that Hiraishin is some exception from the other instances mentioned. If Minato were to have said something like, "I put a seal on Naruto, but wherever he is, I'm unable to get to." That would make Hiraishin the exception, despite the fact even the Summoning Technique works to the same effect.
Perhaps I phrased it wrong, but just to say "we haven't seen it" as proof that it can, was not my intention. It was to point out the forced limitation that the series has not deemed so (yet). The reason why I think neither analogy works in this case is because its unreasonable for horses to fly and for an undetectable teapot to exist in those scenarios, despite the possibility due to ignorance. However, its not anywhere near unreasonable when we're talking things that work in a core fundamental manner.
The point of the analogy was to say, "Just because we've seen Hiraishin only used in one dimension, doesn't mean that makes it its limitation." Using the other jutsu of the same nature as evidence that its a strong possibility, I simply don't see (other than the series itself saying so) a valid reason to make it an exception.
It seems we'll just have to agree to disagree though.
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Oh wow, I totally forgot about Sasuke's hawk. Welp, Summoning Technique (and by extension, Reverse Summoning Technique) can be used for inter-dimensional travel.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/680/3
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Oh wow, I totally forgot about Sasuke's hawk. Welp, Summoning Technique (and by extension, Reverse Summoning Technique) can be used for inter-dimensional travel.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/680/3
To be fair, that's near the end of the series when Naruto and Sasuke have pretty much been established as gods.
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All this stuff is the reason why I didn't bother contesting >_> Because I knew something like this would happen and nothing would get resolved. Well, at least this should mean that no one else should be able to pull those kinds of moves in the future.
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This is the sort of thing better suited for PM's, if you just wanted to solicit information I am sure you could have written a spam message and sent it out. D: Just putting the guy on blast is rude as shit.
I think that when it becomes rude to seek knowledge, to bring my questions to the community and be told to instead walk behind closed doors...
Well, I must respectfully decline to have my love of society as well as my desire to learn being censored in such a manner and trust to other minds and their ability to perceive my pursuit in the light in which it is intended.
As for those who did indeed reply, I will read your words and ponder them.
Thank You.