Shinobi Legends Forum
Roleplay => Village Square => Topic started by: Uchiha Madara on August 19, 2015, 01:20:54 AM
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I know as it is, the technique is pretty much voided by all. But I don't like voiding canon things if it can be nerfed to acceptable levels, which I believe this jutsu can.
I have a few ideas for weaknesses and advantages taken from the actual jutsu (and a mix of my own ideas) that could make it a useful jutsu while still not being too overpowered.
Advantages:
1. They cannot be sensed by normal means (Clones that virtually have constant Mujin Meisai)
2. They do not dispel like other clones as they are very durable (Doton: Domu durability)
3. The user can switch places with the clone(s) at any given time
Disadvantages:
1. They can be sensed via contact sensing, Sage Mode, or be seen with Rinnegan.
2. The clones can only use taijutsu
3. Only 1 or 2 at a time.
4. While active, the user cannot use any clone techniques
5. While split, so is your chakra, making it impossible to use high level techniques above B rank skills (kekkie genkai abilities, unless given a rank, are the exception)
6. If the clone is killed or harmed, the user receives half the damage.
All opinions on this are welcome, if you think it can be improved or outright ban the jutsu still entirely.
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I know as it is, the technique is pretty much voided by all. But I don't like voiding canon things if it can be nerfed to acceptable levels, which I believe this jutsu can.
I have a few ideas for weaknesses and advantages taken from the actual jutsu (and a mix of my own ideas) that could make it a useful jutsu while still not being too overpowered.
Advantages:
1. They cannot be sensed by normal means (Clones that virtually have constant Mujin Meisai)
2. They do not dispel like other clones as they are very durable (Doton: Domu durability)
3. The user can switch places with the clone(s) at any given time
Disadvantages:
1. They can be sensed via contact sensing, Sage Mode, or be seen with Rinnegan.
2. The clones can only use taijutsu
3. Only 1 or 2 at a time.
4. While active, the user cannot use any clone techniques
5. While split, so is your chakra, making it impossible to use high level techniques above B rank skills (kekkie genkai abilities, unless given a rank, are the exception)
6. If the clone is killed or harmed, the user receives half the damage.
All opinions on this are welcome, if you think it can be improved or outright ban the jutsu still entirely.
I didn't even read what you said to say no.
>> Limbo is retarded and shouldn't be brought to SL, ever. Even if all it did was make a nice sandwich.
If you want a clone, make one <_< You don't need magical eyes to create an invisibl person.
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I think you'll have trouble getting this to go, but your rules seems "reasonable". Though I argue advantage #3 is too much to my liking.
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I would have to agree with Trev. If rule 3 is nerfed a bit, this could be acceptable in my RP.
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See Athos? Not everyone has to be a debby downer. Besides, maybe if you read it you'll like it.
So maybe amend rule 3 to a certain distance? Like only if the clone is 10 feet away?
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The problem with whatever distance you use, it doesn't matter because all you would have to do to get around that is just constantly write that the clone is within range. I find distance is likely one of the hardest things about this place, because we don't have any visual interpretation of distance here. It's easy to just say, "You were too far away." or "The clone was close enough to swap."
EDIT: I say just scrap rule 3 completely. It has the potential to be abused like the body replacement technique. And the durability of the clones also comes into question. What determines 'enough damage' to defeat it? It'd probably change based on the person using it. And in the series, couldn't they only be damaged by senjutsu? Or maybe I'm remembering wrong. Even if they can't be seen, they should still be able to take damage. I think it's doable, but not in the way it works in the series. Basically it's just an invisible clone.
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In addition there's the deal with literal nonexistence lest you've the rinnegan or sage mode. One could think 'oh well everyone has those nowadays' so it'd be a weakness, but its not really the case. For great majority of the populace you could basically just stand there sipping tea while they are helplessly murdered by invisible beings.
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In addition there's the deal with literal nonexistence lest you've the rinnegan or sage mode. One could think 'oh well everyone has those nowadays' so it'd be a weakness, but its not really the case. For great majority of the populace you could basically just stand there sipping tea while they are helplessly murdered by invisible beings.
And even adding to this, for the people with Rinnegan and Sage Mode, those things have to be activated. Jimmy of the Rinnegan could have amazing eyes, sure, but if you throw an invisible creature at him while he is showering or on the shitter, he's as blind as anyone.
And Sage Mode takes time to build up. So while Limbo is instant, Sage Mode isn't.
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Athos isn't the only one who openly voids the use of Limbo. I myself have stated in the past when Limbo was brought up in the manga that I'll be voiding any usage of it in my presence.
In addition there's the deal with literal nonexistence lest you've the rinnegan or sage mode. One could think 'oh well everyone has those nowadays' so it'd be a weakness, but its not really the case. For great majority of the populace you could basically just stand there sipping tea while they are helplessly murdered by invisible beings.
And even adding to this, for the people with Rinnegan and Sage Mode, those things have to be activated. Jimmy of the Rinnegan could have amazing eyes, sure, but if you throw an invisible creature at him while he is showering or on the shitter, he's as blind as anyone.
And Sage Mode takes time to build up. So while Limbo is instant, Sage Mode isn't.
Like Athos said, "Limbo is instant, Sage Mode isn't." No one see an issue with that?
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Only scrubs can't insta-Sage Mode, or prepare to jump into it. [/unnecessary criticism]
I'm sitting on the fence for this one, since it's not really as bad as Shadow Clones or Wood Clones. Sure they may be invisible and undetectable to most people, but at the same time, they're taijutsu-only.
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The immortal god Madara died by taijutsu.
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The immortal god Madara died by taijutsu.
The highest tier of Taijustu though.
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Amend rules 1 & 3.
Your amendment to rule 3 seems fair to me. Beq raises a good point, but I don't it too be much of an issue. Mostly cause if you're using to technique it's probably to kill and a serious rp (Big assumption by me I guess). So if one were to try the whole be ambiguous with the distance thing to abuse it, two things would likely happen.
1. A judge if called would likely call bs on you, and void said action.
2. Your opponent if clever enough and aware, could what I call "detail abuse" you which people on this game are fond of and say the clone is not near you.
So the amendment for 3 is fine by me.
I think you amend advantage one to also include other sensing methods such as the generic chakra sensing technique. Seems most people's issue is with the sensing, so you fix that and maybe, just maybe, you get the ok.
Though at a certain point you have to think, is nerfing it worth it? When nerfing a jutsu transforms it into a shell of its former self, and barely like the cannon technique you are trying to implement, it sometimes is better to leave it alone imo. In the words of Jud from Pet Sematary "Sometimes dead is better" (Bonus points for me since it's also an Edo Tensei Joke >.>)
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Wouldn't the clones one hit kill anyone also since they were able to knock out a Tailed Beast?
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Disadvantages:
1. They can be sensed via contact sensing, Sage Mode, or be seen with Rinnegan.
2. The clones can only use taijutsu
3. Only 1 or 2 at a time.
4. While active, the user cannot use any clone techniques
5. While split, so is your chakra, making it impossible to use high level techniques above B rank skills (kekkie genkai abilities, unless given a rank, are the exception)
6. If the clone is killed or harmed, the user receives half the damage.
All opinions on this are welcome, if you think it can be improved or outright ban the jutsu still entirely.
Reading some of the disadvantages, you might as well as just make regular clones. >.>
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... Though at a certain point you have to think, is nerfing it worth it? When nerfing a jutsu transforms it into a shell of its former self, and barely like the cannon technique you are trying to implement, it sometimes is better to leave it alone imo. In the words of Jud from Pet Sematary "Sometimes dead is better" (Bonus points for me since it's also an Edo Tensei Joke >.>)
My thoughts are largely aligned with this statement here. The main issue I have with it is that it is fairly "quick" (instant, what does that even mean here?) and can only be detected by special sensory, essentially making them ghosts with an ethereal punch. To remove those two would, as Mei pointed out, make it no better than the standard shadow clone techniques.
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Yet keeping them as they are makes them nigh-instant death devices. Poke the eyes out? Crush the throat? Grab their own weapon and stab them? Snatch head from behind and snap the neck?
I shouldn't have to say more in all honesty.
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Yet keeping them as they are makes them nigh-instant death devices. Poke the eyes out? Crush the throat? Grab their own weapon and stab them? Snatch head from behind and snap the neck?
I shouldn't have to say more in all honesty.
Well that's honestly where being a good role player should come in >.> Like, if you can't detect a full grown man running at you with your other senses at this point then what kind of Shinobi are you? This is where we gotta stop holding their hands in a zone fight.
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I am of a mind where if you want to use a technique that is generally banned for some reason or another, just find a group of people who accept it, and RP with them. Like how some people still use Truth-Seeking Balls, because people around them don't care enough to ban it. Most people arguing for and against it here will never RP together xD Like Warren and Rusaku for example; When will that ever happen?
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Funny you'd say that when it was us two who went to the moon together, lol.
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Funny you'd say that when it was us two who went to the moon together, lol.
I know xD But your two names are not generally attributed to each other.
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Yet keeping them as they are makes them nigh-instant death devices. Poke the eyes out? Crush the throat? Grab their own weapon and stab them? Snatch head from behind and snap the neck?
I shouldn't have to say more in all honesty.
Well that's honestly where being a good role player should come in >.> Like, if you can't detect a full grown man running at you with your other senses at this point then what kind of Shinobi are you? This is where we gotta stop holding their hands in a zone fight.
Touch-based sensory, sage mode, and Rinnegan are the only proposed ways of detecting the target. I don't think hearing counts as touch-based sensory, so I don't see how, if you do not have the aforementioned sensory techniques, you would detect the clone. And if you could detect it with just your common 5 senses (excluding touch) then that would kind of defeat the purpose of using this over the standard shadow clone technique, except for the convenience of being nigh anywhere at will, which in itself is OP.
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Yet keeping them as they are makes them nigh-instant death devices. Poke the eyes out? Crush the throat? Grab their own weapon and stab them? Snatch head from behind and snap the neck?
I shouldn't have to say more in all honesty.
Well that's honestly where being a good role player should come in >.> Like, if you can't detect a full grown man running at you with your other senses at this point then what kind of Shinobi are you? This is where we gotta stop holding their hands in a zone fight.
Touch-based sensory, sage mode, and Rinnegan are the only proposed ways of detecting the target. I don't think hearing counts as touch-based sensory, so I don't see how, if you do not have the aforementioned sensory techniques, you would detect the clone. And if you could detect it with just your common 5 senses (excluding touch) then that would kind of defeat the purpose of using this over the standard shadow clone technique, except for the convenience of being nigh anywhere at will, which in itself is OP.
Forgot about that part.
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I do t see why this couldn't be used so long as they can be dealt physical damage. Sense the Sage of Six Paths isn't at SL how could you defeat them?
Also why not make them chakra sensory sensitive. That to me would be enough of a nerf.
And perhaps place a limit to how many can be used and a cool down.
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Then, again, why not just use Shadow Clones at that point?
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I do t see why this couldn't be used so long as they can be dealt physical damage. Sense the Sage of Six Paths isn't at SL how could you defeat them?
Also why not make them chakra sensory sensitive. That to me would be enough of a nerf.
And perhaps place a limit to how many can be used and a cool down.
Anybody with Six Paths Chakra can apparently harm them. Six Paths Chakra is attained with the mixing of Uchiha and Senju DNA/chakra. We can expand that a bit by letting those on the other side, the Hyuuga/Otsutsuki side, that have the required mixing of their equivalent chakras for what I would call, Tensei Chakra or Rebirth Chakra, to be able to harm them too.
For seeing the clones, we should add the Tenseigan to have the ability to see them as well.
And lets also not forget that the clones have to return to the user after a bit, and are unusable for a bit as well. This wasn't a drawback for Madara with both Rinnegan, but it was when he had just one Rinnegan.
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Before it was explained to be invisible clones from another dimension it seemed to be a long range Shinra Tensei. As if you got to pick where the attack would launch the same way as Kamui, and then it would spread from there. So we could just use it like that instead.
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That would actually make it worse, because Limbo is a technique that hits an opponent from their blind side. To have it as a long-ranged Shinra Tensei would make it even more powerful than what the true technique is. But with the ability to see, sense and even hit these clones, it becomes a lot easier to deal with.
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And basically nobody has that ability so again no, its not easy at all except to a priviledged few, everyone else is fucked. And before you start with the whole 'if you can't spot one otherwise u suck' nonsense again, no, that doesn't work. If nobody from the bijuu to sasuke/naruto to even the edo kages like tobirama who saw it from up close had any idea what was going on, then neither can anyone of you plausibly either.
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That would actually make it worse, because Limbo is a technique that hits an opponent from their blind side. To have it as a long-ranged Shinra Tensei would make it even more powerful than what the true technique is. But with the ability to see, sense and even hit these clones, it becomes a lot easier to deal with.
Yeah but a Shinra Tensei cant sneak up behind you and break your neck. No ones ever died from a Shinra Tensei in the manga. As long as you make an effort to defend yourself you'll survive. Id rather but suddenly knocked over than suddenly in a submission hold.
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Indeed. Interestingly enough often the great majority if not all of damage from eating a shinra tensei comes from you crashing into shit after you've been sent flying, rather than the repulsive wave itself.
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That would actually make it worse, because Limbo is a technique that hits an opponent from their blind side. To have it as a long-ranged Shinra Tensei would make it even more powerful than what the true technique is. But with the ability to see, sense and even hit these clones, it becomes a lot easier to deal with.
Yeah but a Shinra Tensei cant sneak up behind you and break your neck. No ones ever died from a Shinra Tensei in the manga. As long as you make an effort to defend yourself you'll survive. Id rather but suddenly knocked over than suddenly in a submission hold.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-429-page-12.html
Granted, Tsunade put all the chakra she could muster into Katsuyu, so the former could multiply and wrap around every villager to protect them from the force + debris.
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Again, collateral effects from the blast, flying debris and the like, not from the blast itself. Flying through the air doesn't hurt you, crashing into shit or something landing on you at hundred miles an hour does.
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Make them capapable of physical damage and sensory able and that is good enough.
Even a capable sensor would perhaps not notice them at first, on the first strike. I mean he would have all focus on the enemy he can see by defualt of natural combat. If they didn't have a dojutsu.
Hell I'd say make it to were other dojutsu beside the rinnegan could not see them to a full degree. I know they can see chakra and if these things could be sensed in theory they should be able to be seen by all dojutsu but make them like blurs or something. Kinda like preditor from the movie how you can see them but it is hard if you don't look closely.
They still would hold more power the clones that are easy to track and keep up with.
Truly one shouldn't even have to be able to sense them if they can be dealt physical damage to defeat them.
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Make them capapable of physical damage and sensory able and that is good enough.
Even a capable sensor would perhaps not notice them at first, on the first strike. I mean he would have all focus on the enemy he can see by defualt of natural combat. If they didn't have a dojutsu.
Hell I'd say make it to were other dojutsu beside the rinnegan could not see them to a full degree. I know they can see chakra and if these things could be sensed in theory they should be able to be seen by all dojutsu but make them like blurs or something. Kinda like preditor from the movie how you can see them but it is hard if you don't look closely.
They still would hold more power the clones that are easy to track and keep up with.
Truly one shouldn't even have to be able to sense them if they can be dealt physical damage to defeat them.
You're basically nerfing them so that it can be used in-game.
As mentioned before, what's the point of bring a technique where you nerf it to the point that it's far weaker than the original? >.>
Personally, some of the posts I have read thus far makes no sense.
1. Read the technique's description: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Limbo:_Border_Jail
2. It wasn't until Naruto/Sasuke receive Six Paths chakra that they were able to sense/see the invisible shadows. Six Paths chakra is the unique chakra of Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki , so I don't know why some of you make it sound like it's easy to get. >.>
2a. It is said that Six Paths chakra can be acquired from Hagoromo directly or by combining the chakra of his sons - Indra and Asura - to form the Rinnegan. So by that 'logic', you COULD make Uchiha KG represents the chakra of Indra and Mokuton KG represents the chakra of Asura. So the Rinnegan = Six Paths Power (?) and the Sage Mode = Six Paths Sage Mode. But as it was mentioned earlier, not a lot of people have Sharingan/Mokuton/(Rinnegan or Sage Mode) so the majority would be screwed. Maybe Tenseigan would be able to sense it, no? But then you would need Hyuuga KG and go through the RP (w/ Warren or Rusaku) to get Tenseigan. =/
2ai. Even if you follow the 'logic' I represented, I feel it would royally mess up the RP in a whole new level. >.>
3. Limbo: Border Jail is obviously not a long range version of Shinra Tensei. =/
4. It stands to reason that only Rinnegan users would be able to see the shadows though.
5. Personally, why do you feel the need to use this technique anyway? So you can become more OP? Smh.
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I know it's not long range shinra tensei my point was that, before it was explained, that's what it seemed to be and that seems like a much more fair ability to me. So just use that which I'm sure people could find unique uses for instead of inter dimensional ghosts
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@Mei
Regarding 2a, if rikudou chakra was a must for it to work, then sage mode would be a no-go by one of the few SL rules basically everyone follows; no rinnegan (or tenseigan) and sage mode on same character.
And considering to mix the chakras to make rikudou chakra, it causes surfacing of rinnegan, which'd lock you out. Effectively makes rikudou sage mode impossible to use.
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I know it's not long range shinra tensei my point was that, before it was explained, that's what it seemed to be and that seems like a much more fair ability to me. So just use that which I'm sure people could find unique uses for instead of inter dimensional ghosts
Ah, I see. But then 'distance/range comes to play' as I think was mentioned earlier.
And technically shinra tensei seems to have good range anyway. Unless you're talking about...like teleport version of shinra tensei where
X.A.(-)...............................(-).B.Y ------------> Y
X - Shinra Tensei user
A - Shinra Tensei used at this point
(-) - Teleports
B - Shinra Tensei arrives and activates at this point and beyond
So the Shinra Tensei user has the move teleported in front of the opponent who is then sent flying, leaving everything in the range between A and B unaffected.
Is that what you meant by a long range Shinra Tensei?
EDIT:
@Mei
Regarding 2a, if rikudou chakra was a must for it to work, then sage mode would be a no-go by one of the few SL rules basically everyone follows; no rinnegan (or tenseigan) and sage mode on same character.
And considering to mix the chakras to make rikudou chakra, it causes surfacing of rinnegan, which'd lock you out. Effectively makes rikudou sage mode impossible to use.
Wait, I'm confused. I did not state that a character can have both rinnegan and sage mode. I'm just saying if you want to go about getting Six Path chakra, there are two ways.
Get Uchiha KG, Mokuton KG, AND ....
1. Rinnegan = Six Path Power (?)
-OR-
2. Sage Mode = Six Path Sage Mode
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Personally I think if we didn't have too much of this: "Oh its so OP burn it with fire" attitude, we would work more to incorporate more techniques than just outright banning them. Why nerf and try to bring it into play? Why do anything on this site? Its to have fun, we forget to often that this is a game.
With that being said, i'm trying to work the jutsu into SL for enjoyment and fit it to how we do things. No one, and if there is it is a small percentage, claim Six Paths Chakra. The only reason the clones could be sensed or harmed was by Six Paths Chakra....so what? This isn't the anime or manga, we can choose whether or not to follow completely, change it slightly, or not at all.
We've incorporated faaar more dangerous things than this, instant kills, nearly instant space-time sniping/dodging, unlimited chakra and stamina zombies, easy to use village destroying jutsu, nearly impenetrable chakra titans with strength comparable of that to the Bijuu and the list goes on. We use these for the exact same reason, fun. No has had fun being an Edo Tensei, being a Kamui user, Susanoo user, or a user of the Rinnegan? Of course we have and we don't get rid of them, we nerf them to be used and for the rest of us we develop ways around it.
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I know you said they can't. I'm saying that because of that very inability to do both, rikudou sage mode is impossible, because to get rikudou chakra you have to mix uchiha/senju which makes rinnegan, which locks you from all things sage mode. There literally is no legitimate way on SL to do it.
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Personally I think if we didn't have too much of this: "Oh its so OP burn it with fire" attitude, we would work more to incorporate more techniques than just outright banning them. Why nerf and try to bring it into play? Why do anything on this site? Its to have fun, we forget to often that this is a game.
With that being said, i'm trying to work the jutsu into SL for enjoyment and fit it to how we do things. No one, and if there is it is a small percentage, claim Six Paths Chakra. The only reason the clones could be sensed or harmed was by Six Paths Chakra....so what? This isn't the anime or manga, we can choose whether or not to follow completely, change it slightly, or not at all.
We've incorporated faaar more dangerous things than this, instant kills, nearly instant space-time sniping/dodging, unlimited chakra and stamina zombies, easy to use village destroying jutsu, nearly impenetrable chakra titans with strength comparable of that to the Bijuu and the list goes on. We use these for the exact same reason, fun. No has had fun being an Edo Tensei, being a Kamui user, Susanoo user, or a user of the Rinnegan? Of course we have and we don't get rid of them, we nerf them to be used and for the rest of us we develop ways around it.
It sounds like you have forgotten the fundamentals of having fun. Just because it's fun for one person or a few people, does not mean it's fun for everyone else. I'm sure it's fun for a person (villian) to terrorize a village but it's not fun for the villagers that are getting terrorized. This is like a 'bully' mindset. =/
I know you said they can't. I'm saying that because of that very inability to do both, rikudou sage mode is impossible, because to get rikudou chakra you have to mix uchiha/senju which makes rinnegan, which locks you from all things sage mode. There literally is no legitimate way on SL to do it.
Oh, I see what you mean. Well, we can change that so that there will have an option between the two.
Remember it's not necessarily the KGs that combine to form the Rinnegan. After all, what would have happened if it was the other way around between Madara and Hashirama? What if Hashirama took some of Madara's DNA and implanted it into himself? I dont think you can go from zero to Rinnegan real quick. (Drake reference, lol)
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So one would think, but that's exactly what Madara did, just popped it into being. But anyway.
People already pull the 'I win cause senjutsu' card to plain retarded levels, and rikudou senjutsu is significantly beyond any normal modes, so to try put it not in crude words it would be a very very very bad idea to give that to anybody. It would worsen their god complex to plain outrageous levels.
If this jutsu does happen, normal animal-based sage modes and the like being able to sense limbo would be good. Using the necessity for sages to see this thing as an excuse to try get rikudou sage mode however, would be not, seriously fuck that.
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... We've incorporated faaar more dangerous things than this, instant kills, nearly instant space-time sniping/dodging, unlimited chakra and stamina zombies, easy to use village destroying jutsu, nearly impenetrable chakra titans with strength comparable of that to the Bijuu and the list goes on...
If anything there wasn't enough Inquisition style technique burning in my opinion. Edo Tensei, Rinnegan (in general), Tensaigan (which I still don't acknowledge personally) and hiraishin come to mind in saying that.
Limbo was rejected shortly after explanation:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,7957.0.html
put on a list for rejection:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,7997.15.html
And as already said almost to sickness, nerfing the technique until it is a shadow of its former self is not fun, it's, at least to me, irritating. Why use Limbo when it is regulated to a invisible to the naked eye shadow clone that cannot even perform jutsu? What fun is there in using a canon technique if it is nerfed to the ground?
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So one would think, but that's exactly what Madara did, just popped it into being. But anyway.
People already pull the 'I win cause senjutsu' card to plain retarded levels, and rikudou senjutsu is significantly beyond any normal modes, so to try put it not in crude words it would be a very very very bad idea to give that to anybody. It would worsen their god complex to plain outrageous levels.
If this jutsu does happen, normal animal-based sage modes and the like being able to sense limbo would be good. Using the necessity for sages to see this thing as an excuse to try get rikudou sage mode however, would be not, seriously fuck that.
You're right, I agree.
... We've incorporated faaar more dangerous things than this, instant kills, nearly instant space-time sniping/dodging, unlimited chakra and stamina zombies, easy to use village destroying jutsu, nearly impenetrable chakra titans with strength comparable of that to the Bijuu and the list goes on...
If anything there wasn't enough Inquisition style technique burning in my opinion. Edo Tensei, Rinnegan (in general), Tensaigan (which I still don't acknowledge personally) and hiraishin come to mind in saying that.
Limbo was rejected shortly after explanation:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,7957.0.html
put on a list for rejection:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,7997.15.html
And as already said almost to sickness, nerfing the technique until it is a shadow of its former self is not fun, it's, at least to me, irritating. Why use Limbo when it is regulated to a invisible to the naked eye shadow clone that cannot even perform jutsu? What fun is there in using a canon technique if it is nerfed to the ground?
I just wanted to say I didn't really see an explanation in that thread. It went from 0 to Void, real quick. But I got the point.
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I didn't say it was fun for everyone, but simply just giving my reason as to why I want to incorporate this. I'm also not saying you should let me use this jutsu because its fun for me. Just pointing out that it seems we'd rather be closed off to things than be open to them and atleast try. Also was pointing out there are things alot more dangerous that a majority of us use than invisible, hard to sense taijutsu clones.
... We've incorporated faaar more dangerous things than this, instant kills, nearly instant space-time sniping/dodging, unlimited chakra and stamina zombies, easy to use village destroying jutsu, nearly impenetrable chakra titans with strength comparable of that to the Bijuu and the list goes on...
If anything there wasn't enough Inquisition style technique burning in my opinion. Edo Tensei, Rinnegan (in general), Tensaigan (which I still don't acknowledge personally) and hiraishin come to mind in saying that.
Limbo was rejected shortly after explanation:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,7957.0.html
put on a list for rejection:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,7997.15.html
And as already said almost to sickness, nerfing the technique until it is a shadow of its former self is not fun, it's, at least to me, irritating. Why use Limbo when it is regulated to a invisible to the naked eye shadow clone that cannot even perform jutsu? What fun is there in using a canon technique if it is nerfed to the ground?
I'm trying to keep the core advantages of the technique intact. Most of the weaknesses are upon the user itself to make it fair for the opponent so they can make that their advantage. To answer your question, that is what basically Limbo is, an invisible to the naked eye shadow clone who never performed a jutsu.
I'm willingly to work around the details because these three aspects are the most important to me (as they make the jutsu what it is)
1. Hard to sense
2. Durable
3. Able to switch places
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I didn't say it was fun for everyone, but simply just giving my reason as to why I want to incorporate this. I'm also not saying you should let me use this jutsu because its fun for me. Just pointing out that it seems we'd rather be closed off to things than be open to them and atleast try. Also was pointing out there are things alot more dangerous that a majority of us use than invisible, hard to sense taijutsu clones.
... We've incorporated faaar more dangerous things than this, instant kills, nearly instant space-time sniping/dodging, unlimited chakra and stamina zombies, easy to use village destroying jutsu, nearly impenetrable chakra titans with strength comparable of that to the Bijuu and the list goes on...
If anything there wasn't enough Inquisition style technique burning in my opinion. Edo Tensei, Rinnegan (in general), Tensaigan (which I still don't acknowledge personally) and hiraishin come to mind in saying that.
Limbo was rejected shortly after explanation:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,7957.0.html
put on a list for rejection:
http://forum.shinobilegends.com/index.php/topic,7997.15.html
And as already said almost to sickness, nerfing the technique until it is a shadow of its former self is not fun, it's, at least to me, irritating. Why use Limbo when it is regulated to a invisible to the naked eye shadow clone that cannot even perform jutsu? What fun is there in using a canon technique if it is nerfed to the ground?
I'm trying to keep the core advantages of the technique intact. Most of the weaknesses are upon the user itself to make it fair for the opponent so they can make that their advantage. To answer your question, that is what basically Limbo is, an invisible to the naked eye shadow clone who never performed a jutsu.
I'm willingly to work around the details because these three aspects are the most important to me (as they make the jutsu what it is)
1. Hard to sense
2. Durable
3. Able to switch places
Heh, have the user be held responsible for making it possible for the target. That's like saying that the host of a biju has the obligation to make it possible for a challenger to complete the RP requirements of a hunt. If we could trust general user judgment on this matter there wouldn't even be any regulations for anything RP related beyond the standard social norms of the site.
I had not even recalled the switching places thing, which is itself a problem, but being sensable by even regular sensors does not make it hard to sense, the durability is particularly flawed if the damage is reflected on the user (even if not, how durable is durable here? I don't want to have to go through another SL HP pool just to take down a clone) since its a double-edged sword. From the propositions I have seen proposed that are not outright rejection, I don't see how the core tenants are going to be maintained.
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Reminds me of another core detail that seems to be missing, if my memory's correct. Doesn't damage dealt to the shadow transfer to main once the shadow returns to it? Which'd mean if you blow like half the shadows side off, the main would suffer this injury too.
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I'm trying to keep the core advantages of the technique intact. Most of the weaknesses are upon the user itself to make it fair for the opponent so they can make that their advantage. To answer your question, that is what basically Limbo is, an invisible to the naked eye shadow clone who never performed a jutsu.
I'm willingly to work around the details because these three aspects are the most important to me (as they make the jutsu what it is)
1. Hard to sense
2. Durable
3. Able to switch places
You basically stated the three reasons why we don't want to incorporate it. >.>
1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far only Rinnegan can see it while you're allowing Sage Mode and chakra sensing to at least sense them. So if no other way beside what was previously mentioned, then it's still unfair because not a lot of people have any of those abilities. And correct me if I'm wrong, but there's different levels to chakra sensing also. So even if you can sense them, you may not be able to 'sense' how they will attack, leaving your only option to stay away from them which would be impossible if you're surrounded by them. And again correct me if I'm wrong, but only exception would be Sage Mode. >.>
Proof: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/377/18
2. Beyond durable. They cannot be 'killed' period, only immobilized (and that's only via methods involving Six Path chakra - which can be downplayed to use those black chakra rods that only Rinnegan users have access to). And we can only estimate the time limit for how long these shadows can stay out and another time limit to estimate how long until you can bring them out again.
Proof: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/675/12
3. Kawarimi all day, everyday? You might want to put a limit on how many times this can be used per fight. >.>
If you truly believe in what you said, then you're most likely going to find someone to RP with you in using Limbo. I don't know who but somebody. So in essence, arguing for Limbo to be accepted into the RP community will probably never happen, however, your attempts were honorable.
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@Mei
Not exactly. My impression when I first saw madara use it, since it zoomed in on his eye, was that it was launched like kakashi's kamui. You would look at a point and then a shinra tensei would be generated from that point, as if you were standing there. The easy way to make it fair would be to say it can only be so strong, no village destroying levels. It would probably be more supplementary, used to surprise people and knock them into other more dangerous things.
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@Mei
Not exactly. My impression when I first saw madara use it, since it zoomed in on his eye, was that it was launched like kakashi's kamui. You would look at a point and then a shinra tensei would be generated from that point, as if you were standing there. The easy way to make it fair would be to say it can only be so strong, no village destroying levels. It would probably be more supplementary, used to surprise people and knock them into other more dangerous things.
I liked the technique more when it was a long distance Shinra tensei. We should go with that instead :D
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@Mei
Not exactly. My impression when I first saw madara use it, since it zoomed in on his eye, was that it was launched like kakashi's kamui. You would look at a point and then a shinra tensei would be generated from that point, as if you were standing there. The easy way to make it fair would be to say it can only be so strong, no village destroying levels. It would probably be more supplementary, used to surprise people and knock them into other more dangerous things.
Oh I see, that's kinda cool. It takes the shadows completely out of the equation. But again, it goes back to what's the point of bring a tech. and nerf it to a completely different version of itself. >.>
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After a bit more reading of the thread and some thinking, I would support Limbo for incorporation. I'm a Sage Mode user here, and I feel safe with letting it fly.
And really with this whole, "It's too over-powered" argument we have going on here, you could say that with a lot of things here.
Tenseigan is too OP.
Rinnegan is too OP.
Sage Mode is too OP.
Susanoo is too OP.
Kamui is too OP.
Wood Release is too OP.
Mangekyou Sharingan is too OP.
Sharingan is too OP.
Byakugan is too OP.
Gentle Fist is too OP.
Tailed Beasts are too OP.
I add a bunch of other canon stuff to that list too. Like, why not just get good instead? It took me years to, but it was worth it.
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I'm trying to keep the core advantages of the technique intact. Most of the weaknesses are upon the user itself to make it fair for the opponent so they can make that their advantage. To answer your question, that is what basically Limbo is, an invisible to the naked eye shadow clone who never performed a jutsu.
I'm willingly to work around the details because these three aspects are the most important to me (as they make the jutsu what it is)
1. Hard to sense
2. Durable
3. Able to switch places
You basically stated the three reasons why we don't want to incorporate it. >.>
1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far only Rinnegan can see it while you're allowing Sage Mode and chakra sensing to at least sense them. So if no other way beside what was previously mentioned, then it's still unfair because not a lot of people have any of those abilities. And correct me if I'm wrong, but there's different levels to chakra sensing also. So even if you can sense them, you may not be able to 'sense' how they will attack, leaving your only option to stay away from them which would be impossible if you're surrounded by them. And again correct me if I'm wrong, but only exception would be Sage Mode. >.>
Proof: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/377/18
2. Beyond durable. They cannot be 'killed' period, only immobilized (and that's only via methods involving Six Path chakra - which can be downplayed to use those black chakra rods that only Rinnegan users have access to). And we can only estimate the time limit for how long these shadows can stay out and another time limit to estimate how long until you can bring them out again.
Proof: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/675/12
3. Kawarimi all day, everyday? You might want to put a limit on how many times this can be used per fight. >.>
If you truly believe in what you said, then you're most likely going to find someone to RP with you in using Limbo. I don't know who but somebody. So in essence, arguing for Limbo to be accepted into the RP community will probably never happen, however, your attempts were honorable.
1. Alot of people don't have access to Kamui, but it seems kind of strange to me to say, "Since alot of people don't have Kamui, it is thus unfair so we shouldn't have it." While I may not know every single player, most that i've encountered are either a Sage, a user of Rinnegan, a sensor, or a combination of them. If there is a option just above generic sensing i'm all ears (which I thought contact sensing was, but apparently its not enough). Maybe high level ones like Minds Eye. Would adding smell and environment changes make it better? Like noticing air distortions, hearing sounds, feeling vibrations, noticing the clones interact with the environment etc. To be surrounded would be impossible because the rules say 1 or 2 clones (depending on how you guys want it) You cannot sense what a wind attack will do (either cut you up or push you back) but you know its coming. A sensor can be good enough to the point they can predict the movements of an opponent without even needing high level sensing jutsu.
2. I know most of what they are; are at unacceptable levels, which is why I gave them set durability, the rest should come with the however else we solve RP problems. How durable is X? Well attack X and find out. Like I said before, I don't really care aside from the core abilities from what the manga and anime say. Some aspects I believe are reasonably ignorable in order to make it work in a manner most can agree with. A time limit would actually be a pretty good thing, but from what I've seen, techniques in RP go by turn basis, not an actual minute by minute sort of thing. 3 post remainder and 3 post cooldown?
3. Hmm, maybe. Only say maybe because of the previous idea mentioned with the cooldown, that might be enough to limit switching? Along with that, a Hiraishin user can do this all day with enough clones. I'll try to get a condensed version of the ideas, advantages, and weaknesses. I only thought of it for like 5 minutes before posting it so keep coming with the ideas.
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@Mei
Not exactly. My impression when I first saw madara use it, since it zoomed in on his eye, was that it was launched like kakashi's kamui. You would look at a point and then a shinra tensei would be generated from that point, as if you were standing there. The easy way to make it fair would be to say it can only be so strong, no village destroying levels. It would probably be more supplementary, used to surprise people and knock them into other more dangerous things.
Oh I see, that's kinda cool. It takes the shadows completely out of the equation. But again, it goes back to what's the point of bring a tech. and nerf it to a completely different version of itself. >.>
By the way, I know you don't like the technique, but if it ends up different than the actual Limbo and you didn't plan on using it to begin with, why care if its different? Your not the one trying to come up with ideas and weaknesses to make this thing viable across the board.
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After a bit more reading of the thread and some thinking, I would support Limbo for incorporation. I'm a Sage Mode user here, and I feel safe with letting it fly.
And really with this whole, "It's too over-powered" argument we have going on here, you could say that with a lot of things here.
Tenseigan is too OP.
Rinnegan is too OP.
Sage Mode is too OP.
Susanoo is too OP.
Kamui is too OP.
Wood Release is too OP.
Mangekyou Sharingan is too OP.
Sharingan is too OP.
Byakugan is too OP.
Gentle Fist is too OP.
Tailed Beasts are too OP.
I add a bunch of other canon stuff to that list too. Like, why not just get good instead? It took me years to, but it was worth it.
Most, if not all, of what you mentioned have fair weaknesses and/or manageable to deal with.
Out of the list, I would say only...Rinnegan, Sage Mode, Kamui, and Tenseigan.
- Sage Mode has a turn limit, although I see some people are incorporating ways to make it 'infinite'. -_-
- Kamui (I assume you only meant the 'warping' ability) can be 'sensed' coming by the opponent's focusing chakra in the eye.
- Rinnegan has a few countermeasures depend on the Path used.
- Tenseigan, atm only 2 people have it and may be the most OP out of the four. I honestly have not thought of any counter measures against this but if I had to guess, I would say use Sage Mode and hope for the best. o.o
1. Alot of people don't have access to Kamui, but it seems kind of strange to me to say, "Since alot of people don't have Kamui, it is thus unfair so we shouldn't have it." While I may not know every single player, most that i've encountered are either a Sage, a user of Rinnegan, a sensor, or a combination of them. If there is a option just above generic sensing i'm all ears (which I thought contact sensing was, but apparently its not enough). Maybe high level ones like Minds Eye. Would adding smell and environment changes make it better? Like noticing air distortions, hearing sounds, feeling vibrations, noticing the clones interact with the environment etc. To be surrounded would be impossible because the rules say 1 or 2 clones (depending on how you guys want it) You cannot sense what a wind attack will do (either cut you up or push you back) but you know its coming. A sensor can be good enough to the point they can predict the movements of an opponent without even needing high level sensing jutsu.
2. I know most of what they are; are at unacceptable levels, which is why I gave them set durability, the rest should come with the however else we solve RP problems. How durable is X? Well attack X and find out. Like I said before, I don't really care aside from the core abilities from what the manga and anime say. Some aspects I believe are reasonably ignorable in order to make it work in a manner most can agree with. A time limit would actually be a pretty good thing, but from what I've seen, techniques in RP go by turn basis, not an actual minute by minute sort of thing. 3 post remainder and 3 post cooldown?
3. Hmm, maybe. Only say maybe because of the previous idea mentioned with the cooldown, that might be enough to limit switching? Along with that, a Hiraishin user can do this all day with enough clones. I'll try to get a condensed version of the ideas, advantages, and weaknesses. I only thought of it for like 5 minutes before posting it so keep coming with the ideas.
For #1, your interpretation is wrong. If the majority did not have the necessary counter-measures against Kamui, then it would be unfair to have it. Although, according to Warren, if someone were to Kamui you into the pocket dimension, you have no way to escape unless you also have access Kamui. =/
Also, I just provided proof that a good sensor may not be able to defend properly against it. They would just know where the attack is generally coming from. But then again this is SL where people would claim high-level sensing without validation.
Oh, I forgot you were going to limit the shadows to 1 or 2.
For #2, good point it would be best for it to be turn-based. 3 post for duration and cooldown sounds good on paper.
For #3, yeah but people don't really spam Hirashin like that. I actually dislike it when people use it as a 'get out of jail' free card one too many times, when imo it's mostly suppose to be used for offensive purposes. >.>
By the way, I know you don't like the technique, but if it ends up different than the actual Limbo and you didn't plan on using it to begin with, why care if its different? Your not the one trying to come up with ideas and weaknesses to make this thing viable across the board.
That sounds like one of those type of questions where people know the answer to but whether not say it because the answer is seems obvious. No offense.
Because it's the principle of the matter. That's like using Fireball jutsu and describing it as a water attack. Like who would sit there and accept that? =/
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1. Think of back when Kamui was a new thing, no one had counter measures. The only reason we have counter measures now is because people actually worked around it and didn't try to ban it immediately (or atleast to my knowledge). I bet most of those counter measures are actually due in part to jutsu like Kamui, not something that would have been around if the jutsu didn't exist.
2. Nice, soon a revision will come.
3. Not anymore after nerfing.
I was completely serious, I know if I was on the other end, I wouldn't care about this at all. If I don't like fire style jutsu, and a guy comes along with a water attack he names it Burning Hot Magma Star, I just plain wouldn't care about it as long as its not a fire jutsu.
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1. Think of back when Kamui was a new thing, no one had counter measures. The only reason we have counter measures now is because people actually worked around it and didn't try to ban it immediately (or atleast to my knowledge). I bet most of those counter measures are actually due in part to jutsu like Kamui, not something that would have been around if the jutsu didn't exist.
2. Nice, soon a revision will come.
3. Not anymore after nerfing.
I was completely serious, I know if I was on the other end, I wouldn't care about this at all. If I don't like fire style jutsu, and a guy comes along with a water attack he names it Burning Hot Magma Star, I just plain wouldn't care about it as long as its not a fire jutsu.
For Kamui, I don't recall people trying to void that. I do know it was the intangibility part that people were voiding and I believe are still voiding. >.>
Shrug. It wouldn't be the first time I argue for/against something that doesn't affect me. I don't know. I like to see things be done fairly and accurately. Occasionally I scroll over old threads about certain jutsus or situations (for a good read) that I wished I could have commented on then.
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Like the Anti-Space Time Seals.
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Like the Anti-Space Time Seals.
Speaking of those, would anti-space time measures (like seals) work against Border Jail?
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Debatable. One would assume it'd prevent at least swapping places with the shadows since its no normal kawarimi, but depending on ones point of view you could also argue it will make shadows unable to do anything to this world and vice versa since its implied limbo is a kind of pseudo dimension of its own.
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If we're being technical the wiki classifies it as Kekkei Genkai, Ninjutsu, Dōjutsu, and Clone Techniques. Nothing about Space Time.
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Yet he still spoke of it as something like 'the other me in the invisible world of limbo', hence the implication its not quite this dimension but at least partially removed, hence my mention its debatable.
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Yet he still spoke of it as something like 'the other me in the invisible world of limbo', hence the implication its not quite this dimension but at least partially removed, hence my mention its debatable.
I guess it depends on how you think of it. I saw Ant-Man recently and that has the concept of the sub-atomic world. I don't think something involving that would really be space time either even though it is very similar to another dimension. Maybe its something like that.