Shinobi Legends Forum

Game Development => Discussions => Topic started by: Nijiri Rinha on October 31, 2014, 10:25:07 am

Title: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Nijiri Rinha on October 31, 2014, 10:25:07 am
There have been a lot of problems with roleplaying in the shinobi legends website. You're well aware of it and so am I. It happens in the zones, it happens in personal messages; it pretty much happens everywhere roleplaying is able to happen. I've been witnessing a lot of fighting over techniques that my fellow shinobi have been using against one another. There have been a lot of arguments caused by the use of these techniques.

A lot of S rank techniques that only Kekkei genkai wielding players have been using against one another and against players without resets have been causing quite the disruption. I've been seeing a lot of arguments based on the premise on time, on god-modding etc. So perhaps there should be official rules for these techniques? No? I feel that if there were a set of rules for these more advanced techniques, or perhaps for each rank of techniques (if there isn't a set already), a lot of these arguments would stop. I'm very curious to hear the opinion of everyone else. Negative or not.

My opinion is this, if there were a set of rules that govern the use of advanced techniques such as the ones that the Mangekyo Sharingan, Sharingan, Byakugan, Rinnegan, Hyoton, Sage Mode, and Wood Style (If I've forgotten a reset please forgive me) users would use, then many of these arguments would stop. Any further thoughts anyone?
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Ѕhadow on October 31, 2014, 01:16:58 pm
We've tried, but then people feel their 'creativeness' is being shut down. There is no way to put rules up for rp and as I spend more and more time on SL and see these topics come up, I'm getting deeper into that mindset.

What set of rules can you think of. Maybe, just MAYBE it can happen. Though I am 99.98% doubtful anything will come to fruition.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Nijiri Rinha on October 31, 2014, 05:51:25 pm
People's creativeness being shut down? Ha! That amuses me. Whether their creativity gets shut down or not isn't an issue in my opinion. However I'll reach a middle ground here. I have a few different sets of rules in mind. If any player wants to become "creative" and make their own technique then I think they should follow these guidelines.

1. Give the technique a name of course.
2. List the hand seals by order.
3. Tell the rank of this technique (Everyone knows the ranks)
4. Tell what class this technique falls under. (Offfensive, defensive.)
5. What Classification does this technique fall under? Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Fuinjutsu etc.
6. The range of the jutsu. (Close Range, Mid Range, Long Range)
7. And of course a description of how the jutsu is used.
8. When the steps above are completed, send it to a judge or a moderator (I doubt a moderator would have to take a look, I think a neutral judge would suffice)  for approval. Someone who is completely neutral to see if the technique is not too over powered.

(And this is not my only idea.)
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on October 31, 2014, 06:14:10 pm
People's creativeness being shut down? Ha! That amuses me. Whether their creativity gets shut down or not isn't an issue in my opinion. However I'll reach a middle ground here. I have a few different sets of rules in mind. If any player wants to become "creative" and make their own technique then I think they should follow these guidelines.

1. Give the technique a name of course.
2. List the hand seals by order.
3. Tell the rank of this technique (Everyone knows the ranks)
4. Tell what class this technique falls under. (Offfensive, defensive.)
5. What Classification does this technique fall under? Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Fuinjutsu etc.
6. The range of the jutsu. (Close Range, Mid Range, Long Range)
7. And of course a description of how the jutsu is used.
8. When the steps above are completed, send it to a judge or a moderator (I doubt a moderator would have to take a look, I think a neutral judge would suffice)  for approval. Someone who is completely neutral to see if the technique is not too over powered.

(And this is not my only idea.)

As someone who uses many custom techniques and rarely gets into terrible discussion with those i fight when I use them, I will put it this way;

a custom technique generally is created, and then tried out in some fashion. If disagreements come up regarding it, then the creator generally make it more clear or adjusts the technique accordingly. If none come, then the technique is "acceptable" and does not require changes until either the creator feels such or an issue arises.

To an extent, that is what spars are very useful for. Trying out new techniques and fleshing them out. Their weaknesses, their strengths, and more importantly, areas where they need improvement.
The only issue I get with this is when people adjust their custom technique to the point in which the one or two weaknesses it did have are completely resolved because these weaknesse were exploited. For example, I create flying shadow, but the one weakness that it has (other than requiring a handsign) is that it can only be used to transort a single user (in order to further distance it from a similar technique, Hiraishin).

If, after finally using it in battle, I decide after the fight to change it so that I can transport others without additional steps, then that kind of thing is what I have an issue with with custom techniques. Otherwise, it is trial, see if it gets by, and then error in application. It helps for the custom technique to have a sort of creation log to it, but that is not required.

Regarding handseals, rarely do RPers specify the precise handseals that they are using, so including those in a custom technique is largely redundant and unnecessary, in my opinion at least. To be truthful, I have seen fewer arguments regarding techniques themselves and more on how they are actually used in a fight.

In short, as a custom technique whore who has relatively few issues with people accepting his custom technique, I think that putting restrictions on custom techniquess is uneeded. Additionally, making more rules regarding canon techniques is very much not necessary most of the time (obviously hiraishin and Edo Tensei are two examples that come to mind right now) and would only serve to make RP more regulatory madness.

Imho, maybe rules specifically on special S-ranked techniques, but other than that, the rest should be left alone.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Nijiri Rinha on October 31, 2014, 06:48:12 pm
Alright allow me to add a couple steps to the guidelines.
1. A clear and thorough description of the technique. (this includes the chakra nature used, the shape of the chakra, how the user shapes the chakra, how the user performs the technique, the techniques weaknesses, the techniques strengths, I'm talking a naruto Wikipedia description here. The opponent and judge needs to know.)
2. And as for the Edo Tensei and those other S Ranked techniques, only those who have the required resets and prerequisites should only be able to use them. (Sage of the Six Paths etc.)

Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Ѕhadow on October 31, 2014, 07:10:11 pm
Alright allow me to add a couple steps to the guidelines.
1. A clear and thorough description of the technique. (this includes the chakra nature used, the shape of the chakra, how the user shapes the chakra, how the user performs the technique, the techniques weaknesses, the techniques strengths, I'm talking a naruto Wikipedia description here. The opponent and judge needs to know.)
2. And as for the Edo Tensei and those other S Ranked techniques, only those who have the required resets and prerequisites should only be able to use them. (Sage of the Six Paths etc.)

1. No. You don't need to say what the weaknesses are nor the strengths. What's the point of making a technique if you're going to tell the world how to block it? "Hey I'm probably going to use my custom tech in a fight and this is how you render it useless" <--- Yup. Chakra nature is typically stated. Shape is stated if it's a technique molded after the rasengan or some other thing, otherwise it'd be useless info to say the shape of your dragon chidori is in the shape of a.....dragon. Performs it? Chakra kneaded and exerted from the body. Like all other techniques.

^ There aren't many (or any) custom techs I've seen that don't give a clear layout of how it's used.

2. Resets in-game DO NOT equal resets in rp. I don't see how clicking for 15 hours straight in the forest has anything to do with your rp skill. Also things like Edo has had over 10 + forum topics made to make it 'legit'. As is Edo Tensei doesn't need any prereqs. It doesn't state any. Kabuto uses it and has no kg (Sage mode kinda), Orochimaru did't. The 2nd Hokage didn't.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Nijiri Rinha on October 31, 2014, 07:22:10 pm
Ever since I came back, there have been a lot of players who have been making such  arguments as: "You don't have the Sharingan reset so you can't copy my techinques" or "You don't have the Hyuga reset so you can't block my chakra network." or "You don't have the Mangekyo Sharingan so you can't use the Amaterasu.", I've been hearing that argument so many times. I understand that laying out your technique's weakness and strength can sound odd, but both the judge needs to know EVERYTHING about the technique you want to create (if you are going to make one. But I'm mainly focused on the S Ranked techniques everyone is making a fuss about)

Now back on topic, the main question here: Should players who do not have the required resets be prohibited from using the techniques that the resets offer? (For example Mangekyo Sharingan---> Amaterasu. Well I never got that reset yet, but for those who have, you get what I mean.) And other techniques that have been causing so many arguments. I want to hear some of your ideas as well. We need to have a set of rules. These senseless arguments within the zones and in these forums need to stop. (No offense to anyone of course.)
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Ѕhadow on October 31, 2014, 07:33:25 pm
Ever since I came back, there have been a lot of players who have been making such  arguments as: "You don't have the Sharingan reset so you can't copy my techinques" or "You don't have the Hyuga reset so you can't block my chakra network." or "You don't have the Mangekyo Sharingan so you can't use the Amaterasu.", I've been hearing that argument so many times. I understand that laying out your technique's weakness and strength can sound odd, but both the judge needs to know EVERYTHING about the technique you want to create (if you are going to make one. But I'm mainly focused on the S Ranked techniques everyone is making a fuss about)

Now back on topic, the main question here: Should players who do not have the required resets be prohibited from using the techniques that the resets offer? (For example Mangekyo Sharingan---> Amaterasu. Well I never got that reset yet, but for those who have, you get what I mean.) And other techniques that have been causing so many arguments. I want to hear some of your ideas as well. We need to have a set of rules. These senseless arguments within the zones and in these forums need to stop. (No offense to anyone of course.)

All of those are legit arguments....I- yeah you do need EMS to use Amaterasu. You can't just spew it from your mouth. xD

You do need the resets to use reset based techs. That's obvious.

To get resets without getting reborns in-game? Well you state your Uchiha born and then go kill someone IC for their sharingan and get EMS and then you either get rinnegan by stealing mokuton DNA from a senju person. To get toads you just rp training in senjutsu. To get kaguya/haku. Well here on SL we just have those two. And for gates you just train a lot. Hyuuga is same as uchiha. Just claim to be born with it.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Warren on October 31, 2014, 07:44:18 pm
Just normal mangekyo's enough actually, though it might as well still be eternal since every sharingan user who goes there magically gets it somehow regardless.

Anyway, the whole trying to establish absolute rules everyone has to follow has been tried before, and its never worked. There's basically 3 kinds of people when it comes to reset related stuff.

1. Reset rule = these folks demand you absolutely have the resets, such as 1 hyuuga or you can't even scratch your ass jyuken style.

2. RP acquired = the opposite of the above, these follow acquiring things through RP, some will even laugh at the forest stuff. "So you've a stack of 16 resets? Don't care, you never did a single post of getting any of that, so I'll treat you like an acad.", and so on.

3. Compromise = the middle path, as name say they don't really give a damn of which you do, as long as you're reasonable about it. Meaning, you try be hardass about reset rules and give em a tough time of using abilities without resets, while you yourself are either loaning, exchanging or lacking them yourself? Not gonna fly. Personally I'd put myself among this lot, my main for example (even though his resets are coincidentally the same as his abilities) got his stuff all through RP before resets were ever even implemented into the game.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Kage on October 31, 2014, 08:26:46 pm
This is really the wrong section to talk about this kind of stuff. But other than that, here's what I have to say.

An S-rank technique is deemed such because it is either difficult to master, a danger to the user, a massive danger to their opponent in the sense of it's power, or it happens to be a technique that is a taboo of some sort. Or a combination of either of those. Usually users of such techniques are pretty much S-rank ninja. But you should rather be asking: what determines if someone is an S-rank ninja? What gives them the authority to call themselves such?

The following is taken from Narutopedia.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/S-rank
Quote
S-rank (Sランク, Esu ranku) is one of the six classifications. It is preceded by A-rank. It is typically used when classifying techniques intended for highly experienced jōnin and Kage-level shinobi. S-rank techniques are almost always unique to a single user, and as such are trademark abilities of that user.

Missions can also be classified as S-rank, these are the highest paying and most dangerous type of mission a ninja can go on. These missions are exclusively assigned to highly skilled jōnin or large squads of ninja. S-rank missions pay at least 1,000,000 ryō.

"S-rank" is also a designation given to extremely powerful missing-nin, earning them a place in their village of origin's Bingo Book.[1] The organisation Akatsuki was stated to be comprised mostly of S-rank criminals.[2]

So then you gotta question this: is this person on the level of a highly-skilled Jōnin or Kage? That depends on what power scale you're going by. If you're going by the series, then most-likely. But if you're going by the SL-verse, then most-likely not. Take a look at all the current Kage of SL, and then at their predecessors. The power-level gauge has slowly been creeping up with each new reign.

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Kage



Also just to put it out there for this discussion, I'm one of those people that stick with resets when it comes to your character having Kekkei Genkai, Eight Gates and Sage Mode. The reason why I go with that, is because SL is a game site first and an RP site second. I mean, if you want establish a mass dictation on RP, then a separate site dedicated solely to RP should be made for such. But SL has lots of history behind it, and within that history, people have slowly established an RP order to it. The more things that happen, the more that RP is talked about and more things are established. I've personally gone through in-game things and RP to get all the stuff that I have so far.

Though the learning of techniques is pretty much free-game, if your character has the ability and opportunity to learn them.

There are probably more violators to this than our little KG rules. I could actually name a few people off the top of my head who aren't on the claims list, and yet insist upon saying that they learned [SUPER SPECIAL TECHNIQUE] from an encounter from a [SUPER POWERFUL CANON CHARACTER] from an encounter from their time in [SECRET SPECIAL LOCATION] in the [NARUTOVERSE]. Funnily enough, if we were to compile and put together the histories of these violators, they would more likely cause a ruckus and bicker with each other on who is really the real user of this technique. But sure some of the histories of some of us that follow along these RP rules we've set up for the SL-verse may have some slight inconsistencies, but we're more likely to have more relatively-civil discussion about it rectifying that.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Warren on October 31, 2014, 08:55:02 pm
Yet shooting down every RP person because of a few jackasses is plain BS, similarly to claims. Sure I get it keeps it so that not everyone can just grab every OP thing on the fly and play god, but seriously? There have been quite plentiful cases where people are quite literally not allowed to even THINK of an idea, much less attempt accomplishing it, just because someone else claimed it first.

I know the claims system isn't going anywhere though, so that's enough of that.

I will however say its also quite some nonsense to demand resets first no matter what, and even more so to require RP on top of that too, instead of allowing just RP (if legitly done of course). Not everyone is an amazing forester with zounds of time to spare, not even to mention ever so often the lower level people can turn out to be far better RPers than the majorly stacked folk too. Hell, you could even consider it somewhat hypocritical depending on ones point of view, if you look at reset loaners.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Bocchiere on November 01, 2014, 05:10:38 am
Two things:

It's weird how many of the current kage happen to be Rokudaime.

Also, Kage, that post was fantastic. Tenouttaten.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: KayentaMoenkopi on November 03, 2014, 05:42:54 pm
We have tried a lot of the thing suggested here before and they tend to work for about two seconds...that is until it means someone doesn't get what they want. Then the gloves come off and we are back to the baby festival of squals.

Speaking of which, when is the Iwa rp going to continue? How long do we have to wait for the current stupidity to resolve itself? Can we kick out the two players who cant' figure it out and continue on our own?

THAT is a solution. You get 3 days of this BS then you are both gone. Problem solved.

Anyway...when it came to custom jutsu. Zenaku, Mei, FlamingChaos, Mariko and myself used to chit chat about it. use it on each other, fix this, fix that. and ta dah. New jutsu was born. That was just my zoning circle of buddies. Everyone was doing it that way with their friends too. It worked. We moderated ourselves.

And you know what else? We tried to keep the BS down cause we realized that if we ticked our friends off we wouldn't have anyone to play with.

We went to a forum to rp...Shinobi Legends Society. It was fun for about 12 seconds. Then the gloves came off. It was way too rule heavy and we all developed personality disorders.

What is needed is sportsman like behavior and manners. IT always comes down to the fit throwing.

And I thin kit stems from the panic attack we get when our characters are about to face death. For those of us who actually create a back story and work on our character, to just have that trashed in 2 seconds by someone pulling out his lazer cannon death ray of impossible to dodge success kind of makes you want to scream SERIOUSLY??????? We used to be able to withdraw from battle without being yelled at and vilified and hounded all over the site by trash talk and ganged up on by fan girls of the one who was killing you and to have them make stupid claims about you as to IC without your consent.

these are my rules...

behave
no character control
post before I die....
PLEASE?????
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Bocchiere on November 03, 2014, 05:47:22 pm
Thank you so very much for that post Kay.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Nijiri Rinha on November 03, 2014, 09:42:02 pm
We have tried a lot of the thing suggested here before and they tend to work for about two seconds...that is until it means someone doesn't get what they want. Then the gloves come off and we are back to the baby festival of squals.

Speaking of which, when is the Iwa rp going to continue? How long do we have to wait for the current stupidity to resolve itself? Can we kick out the two players who cant' figure it out and continue on our own?

THAT is a solution. You get 3 days of this BS then you are both gone. Problem solved.

Anyway...when it came to custom jutsu. Zenaku, Mei, FlamingChaos, Mariko and myself used to chit chat about it. use it on each other, fix this, fix that. and ta dah. New jutsu was born. That was just my zoning circle of buddies. Everyone was doing it that way with their friends too. It worked. We moderated ourselves.

And you know what else? We tried to keep the BS down cause we realized that if we ticked our friends off we wouldn't have anyone to play with.

We went to a forum to rp...Shinobi Legends Society. It was fun for about 12 seconds. Then the gloves came off. It was way too rule heavy and we all developed personality disorders.

What is needed is sportsman like behavior and manners. IT always comes down to the fit throwing.

And I thin kit stems from the panic attack we get when our characters are about to face death. For those of us who actually create a back story and work on our character, to just have that trashed in 2 seconds by someone pulling out his lazer cannon death ray of impossible to dodge success kind of makes you want to scream SERIOUSLY??????? We used to be able to withdraw from battle without being yelled at and vilified and hounded all over the site by trash talk and ganged up on by fan girls of the one who was killing you and to have them make stupid claims about you as to IC without your consent.

these are my rules...

behave
no character control
post before I die....
PLEASE?????

You do make a great point Kayenta. About zoning with a circle of friends and what not. That really does work out a lot. And yes, you are right. We do need sportsman like behavior and manners, definitely manners. The question is, can a set of rule be brought together that can bring about this kind of behavior? I know that's asking for quite the impossible.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Bocchiere on November 03, 2014, 10:00:37 pm
I know that's asking for quite the impossible.

Theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen why are you asking for it?
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Nijiri Rinha on November 28, 2014, 03:44:28 am
The reason I'm asking for it bocchiere, is to cut down on the multiple arguments that happens on this server. I read the posts concerning your fight in Iwagakure. Lots of bickering over idiotic nonsense. "Oh the Izanagi lasts sixty seconds per eye." "How many seconds does one post take?" That technique being one I remember right off hand. There needs to be set rules on these techniques. Like how many posts the technique can be used for before the user goes blind for good. (considering the user of the technique is using their own sharingan. Now if I am missing some details on this move, you'll have to forgive me, I go as far canon as I possibly can. However, I don't jump ahead and watch the Japanese dub. I stick with the English.) The arguments that have been going on in Iwagakure perfectly make my point about these far advanced techniques.

I've already noticed some restrictions on the Edo Tensei. To whoever crafted that thread, I thank you. There needs to be more threads like that.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Bocchiere on November 28, 2014, 05:10:06 am
Or we could just cut out the middle man and ban fun.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Rinn on November 28, 2014, 05:13:20 am
Or we could just cut out the middle man and ban fun.

rofl Although I must say I totally understand where Rinha is coming from.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Nijiri Rinha on November 28, 2014, 08:30:26 am
Or we could just cut out the middle man and ban fun.


Or we could set up some rules on these techniques that have been causing so many arguments and save a lot of trouble for a lot of people. Banning fun not required. I read the arguments concerning the Izanagi and if there were some guidelines for using that technique in the zones then there wont be so many problems and not as much bickering about it.

Now the techniques wouldn't be banned to everyone. Only to those who haven't met the prerequisites. Now this is why I like how the Edo Tensei is restricted to a few people so it isn't used by just everyone.

But Kayenta made a good point too. Roleplaying with pals also helps with this. However, I do like to zone with other people from time to time. And I prefer to keep the techniques at a reasonable rank based level. Meaning, I don't really want a Genin using an S rank technique on me unless I know he/she has had the proper training. (I do know Naruto mastered an A rank and an S rank of his own, but most Genin of the Naruto verse don't jump to those heights without training. Especially training under a master.)
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Bocchiere on November 28, 2014, 09:01:42 am
The argument about Izanagi happened because some guy battering rammed into my rp and decided to kill me in the midst of me using the jutsu. There would not have been an issue if the rp had go on without him. I seem to frequently have issues with people refusing to talk to me about wanting to join an rp. You'd be amazed how many problems are alleviated when you just set up how the rp is going to go beforehand and not just have people kicking the door down willy-nilly.

Small rant over, that level of moderation is never going to be in place on SL. Case in point,

" I don't really want a Genin using an S rank technique on me unless I know he/she has had the proper training."

Ok, how do you know? Do I need to save every rp I do so at any point in time someone can demand to see that I practiced using whatever jutsu? Because I don't really find it fun that I have to create some kind of filing system for rp's that I do, nor do I think it's reasonable that I should have to be able to prove these things to people on a whim. What if you wanted proof that I have Hiraishin but won't accept word of mouth from anyone? I couldn't do it, I don't have rp's saved from 4+ years ago.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Nijiri Rinha on November 28, 2014, 09:30:25 am
Perhaps noting the master you trained under in your bio would help bocchiere. Role playing with someone who has learned a technique out of thin air isn't all too fun for many people. Myself included.

I never once demanded that you make your special little file system of your rp's bocchiere. And no I would not accept it by word of mouth. The Flying Thunder God Technique is an S rank move. The only proof I would want is, WHO did you learn it from? Techniques are created by ninja. And are thus taught to their students. Then the cycle continues. (Unless stopped otherwise)
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Bocchiere on November 28, 2014, 09:56:24 am
So then would proof for any other prerequisites also be just telling you that yes I meet all the prerequisites?
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Nijiri Rinha on November 28, 2014, 10:10:43 am
See? This is why I would like a set of guidelines for these advanced techniques. Like I've been telling you over and over again, word by the user's mouth alone isn't proof enough. I would like to know who taught the shinobi the technique in question. If the master did indeed teach it, then I would have no arguments.

Izanagi for example: Izanagi can only be used by those with genetic traits of the Sage of Six Paths. (That sentence taken from the naruto wiki)  And the Uchiha are descended from the sage, so they can use their eyes as mediums. So if I were to have the proper Uchiha reset, then I wouldn't have a problem with them using that technique. It being a kekkei genkei of course.

But this thread was just an idea. I seriously doubted this rule set would be set in the first place. Any moderators can feel free to lock this thread. I believe nothing will come from this.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Bocchiere on November 28, 2014, 10:18:47 am
And in my case I learned Hiraishin via the 4th Hokage, who no longer plays SL, so what do you do in that case?

...Yeah? That's a fact of how the jutsu works. We know that, there wasn't anyone trying to use Izanagi via Byakugan. You also wouldn't need resets to use Izanagi since you could implant eyes like Danzo. Would we remove the ability to do that for some reason? I don't know.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Nijiri Rinha on November 28, 2014, 10:30:12 am
In your case I would accept it. I have seen multiple people accept your usage of it.

I never said Byakugan. I said Sharingan. And in Danzo's case he stole those sharingan, and he also had Hashirama's DNA. Users who do not have sharingan (whether they were born with or have stolen them like Danzo had) should not be able to use Izanagi.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on November 28, 2014, 05:44:46 pm


...no I would not accept it by word of mouth. The Flying Thunder God Technique is an S rank move. The only proof I would want is, WHO did you learn it from...

The only way to get that information across is word-of-mouth. The "master" of the technique can be redefined, and has been in the past. Hiraishin is just an example. Tomi claimed to be the creater of the technique and all that, but by the time he was RPing as such, I am quite certain that there had been some others out there who had similar claims at the time.

In the end though, his hiraishin legacy is the one that carries the most weight.

... The argument about Izanagi happened because some guy battering rammed into my rp and decided to kill me in the midst of me using the jutsu. There would not have been an issue if the rp had go on without him. I seem to frequently have issues with people refusing to talk to me about wanting to join an rp. You'd be amazed how many problems are alleviated when you just set up how the rp is going to go beforehand and not just have people kicking the door down willy-nilly...


The argument/discussion happened primarily because the timeframe for Izanagi was incredibly hard to pinpoint when an action that took place outside the zone, without referencing the actions that occurred in the zone. That was the initial issue, but this would later on evolve into just how long Izanagi actually lasts, and there is where Rinha would like some definition at. As it is now, it is largely ambiguous just how long Izanagi can last, because the set time for the most optimal conditions is anywhere between 1-10 minutes (or something like that, I and others figured those numbers out in the actual thread more accurately) or even post-mortem if there is a transcript Izanagi going on.

Initially yes, someone butting into the fight without bothering to reference the fight caused the discussion to start. However, how long Izanagi can last did become a question at one point, and was a cause for further arguments/discussions.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: KayentaMoenkopi on November 29, 2014, 08:21:14 pm
And in my case I learned Hiraishin via the 4th Hokage, who no longer plays SL, so what do you do in that case?


WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?????

Tomi taught it to you?

holy Eeeffin heffer!!!!


The way I recall it was you bought his account and then claimed all his perks after hacking his body to bits...oh and making parodies of him with spectacularly scathing name changes and bannable rps.

Whereas I reverse engineered it from a Kunai Darkshinobi left stuck in a training post in Suna. And Dark actually backed my right to know it...until this year when he suddenly decided I misunderstood him--> "Yes, your claim is valid, I remember you doing this Kay." -->like English is a second language to me or something.

Or am I just making all this up? >.>

Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Bocchiere on November 29, 2014, 08:42:44 pm
I said I learned it via the 4th Hokage. I didn't say he taught it to me. I gained the rp character along with the account and I rp'd sending Bocchiere information on Hiraishin and Tomi's Rasengan variants. So yes I did actually rp it. It just so happened I was the Tomi at the time. Nice random rant about something that happened somewhere around half a decade ago though. >>;
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Camel on November 30, 2014, 01:15:20 am
I find it odd that a majority of users on here ban Izanami but not Izanagi.
Why ban something that can effectively counter a forbidden technique that allows users to cheat death at practically the same cost; losing an eye?
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Garō, Ichirou on November 30, 2014, 03:21:55 am
Probably Izanami feels more like character control than anything.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on November 30, 2014, 04:52:27 am
I find it odd that a majority of users on here ban Izanami but not Izanagi.
Why ban something that can effectively counter a forbidden technique that allows users to cheat death at practically the same cost; losing an eye?

Izanami is... banned by many?  :o Wut? I was unaware of this. I was aware that it was practically auto-hit, but since getting out of it can be fished rather easily, it becomes less of an issue in that department, since frankly, many genjutsu are technically auto-hit as depicted in the series. It's more a matter of escaping the effects half the time.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Bocchiere on November 30, 2014, 05:41:37 am
I find it odd that a majority of users on here ban Izanami but not Izanagi.
Why ban something that can effectively counter a forbidden technique that allows users to cheat death at practically the same cost; losing an eye?

Well. :roll: From my personal experience it isn't really a realistic jutsu to perform on SL. When someone used it on me in a zone fight I just let it go so they'd lose an eye since back then it meant you lost Susano'o. The jutsu was not performed correctly though.

There's also the matter of it being a character control jutsu much like Kotoamatsukami, but not as bad. If you actually get trapped in an Izanami you just accept the results of your actions and escape it, your opponent can't argue that you don't do that, so the jutsu is useless. If they opponent was able to refute your resolve the jutsu would be god mod, so everyone just cuts out the middle man and says it is banned.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on November 30, 2014, 07:02:25 am
I find it odd that a majority of users on here ban Izanami but not Izanagi.
Why ban something that can effectively counter a forbidden technique that allows users to cheat death at practically the same cost; losing an eye?

Well. :roll: From my personal experience it isn't really a realistic jutsu to perform on SL. When someone used it on me in a zone fight I just let it go so they'd lose an eye since back then it meant you lost Susano'o. The jutsu was not performed correctly though.

There's also the matter of it being a character control jutsu much like Kotoamatsukami, but not as bad. If you actually get trapped in an Izanami you just accept the results of your actions and escape it, your opponent can't argue that you don't do that, so the jutsu is useless. If they opponent was able to refute your resolve the jutsu would be god mod, so everyone just cuts out the middle man and says it is banned.

Accepting the results of your actions, however, would be nullifying Izanagi, meaning you would get hit by whatever attack you were attempting to quite literally god-mode your way out of. Accepting that you would get blown to pieces, for example, by Konan's specialty technique as Obito would get you blown to pieces, and Izanagi would be, in effect, countered.

It is only really impractical for SL use when you attempt to use it against an ordinary joe who is not using Izanagi. Izanami was created as Izanagi's counter for a reason. It was made to teach Izanagi abusers a lesson. Kabuto's situation would simply not happen in SL unless the character legitimately did not realize that they were in Izanami, or truly could not accept a certain detail about their fate (this even includes a victory if one were to go about it that way).

Looking over the tech descriptions in the series, in order to use Izanami properly against an Izanagi user, one would most likely have to have some sort of foreknowledge that their foe is attempting to Izanagi their way out. After all, at least one event would have to be recorded by the sharingan and stored for the purposes of creating the "loop". While a single event looping would be obvious, in a tight-situation, it would alter reality by altering the illusion that the reality is to be replaced by. By accepting, the target is hit. By not accepting, the victim stays within the loop, and the izanagi cannot alter reality as the user sees fit, thus still causing a hit.

This closely timed action would require the sharingan not justs for utilization, but for timing purposes. It would need to be executed immediately during the illusion-reality tranition in order to work.

As a result, Izanagi abusers would predictably use Izanagi whenever things did not go their way, so an Izanami user would have an easy time dealing with them because they could easily predict the usage of Izanagi. On the other hand, a Kabuto-Itachi situation would require an extreme arrogance or similar exploitable flaw in order to capitalize on, something Itachi would have never gotten had Kabuto not been so talkative in the fight.

So unless you use it against an Izanagi user (and you expect them to use Izanagi, so prepare recorded sensations at bare minimum a post before the main event) there is really no practical use for it in SL unless you capitalize on the brief interval in which the target must recognize the loop (hence, longer loops are best on targets who would be made aware of a loop by the looping itself, and not themselves would recognize familiar sensations and believe it an illusion, which in itself is unlikely since the loop doe not necessarily have to be the exact same scenario each time, merely the same sensations, which will be very close to an exact copy) to finish with something that they cannot so relatively easy get out of.

It is not character control like Koto because it does not allow one to control the victim without restraint. It merely forces the target to accept a certain fate, which is hardly a character control that is comparable.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Garō, Ichirou on November 30, 2014, 07:11:33 am
Well yeah that's true, but IC how would someone know they were in Izanami? I mean after the loop continues to repeat they can assume they were in a Genjutsu but everyone can't know about the Uchiha's Super genjutsu, can they? And it would also require that the Izanami user known about Izanagi as a general thing, but I mean if you know about one you usually know about the other, I guess.

But I mean the situation sustains that certain people wouldn't know the way out of the Genjutsu, so once they realized they were in a genjutsu they would then have to figure out how to break it, which would give the Genjutsu caster more than enough time to end the individual in question, because they wouldn't have broken the Genjutsu and would be all "mmmuhhh" and all that good stuff.

Unless i'm wrong and am just talking out of the back side.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on November 30, 2014, 05:12:32 pm
Well yeah that's true, but IC how would someone know they were in Izanami? I mean after the loop continues to repeat they can assume they were in a Genjutsu but everyone can't know about the Uchiha's Super genjutsu, can they? And it would also require that the Izanami user known about Izanagi as a general thing, but I mean if you know about one you usually know about the other, I guess.

But I mean the situation sustains that certain people wouldn't know the way out of the Genjutsu, so once they realized they were in a genjutsu they would then have to figure out how to break it, which would give the Genjutsu caster more than enough time to end the individual in question, because they wouldn't have broken the Genjutsu and would be all "mmmuhhh" and all that good stuff.

Unless i'm wrong and am just talking out of the back side.


Half of the realm consists of Uchiha/sharingan users, almost all who would claim to know about Izanami and the way out of it. Even those not of the sharingan sort might would very well claim knowledge of how to break it.

At least one turn of intentional recording of sensations and events (like, explicitly stated to be doing such) would probably be a pre-requisite for this technique's fair usage.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: KayentaMoenkopi on November 30, 2014, 09:29:22 pm
I said I learned it via the 4th Hokage. I didn't say he taught it to me. I gained the rp character along with the account and I rp'd sending Bocchiere information on Hiraishin and Tomi's Rasengan variants. So yes I did actually rp it. It just so happened I was the Tomi at the time. Nice random rant about something that happened somewhere around half a decade ago though. >>;

Rant? lol
I was just making fun.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Mei on January 13, 2015, 04:42:52 pm

2. Resets in-game DO NOT equal resets in rp. I don't see how clicking for 15 hours straight in the forest has anything to do with your rp skill. Also things like Edo has had over 10 + forum topics made to make it 'legit'. As is Edo Tensei doesn't need any prereqs. It doesn't state any. Kabuto uses it and has no kg (Sage mode kinda), Orochimaru did't. The 2nd Hokage didn't.

I get the impression that you do not have any resets or very few resets.
If you’re new to resetting, it usually takes a week or 2 to get a reset IF you decide to donate the whole time. After a while, it may take as little as a few days. The fastest I have ever seen someone get a reset is 1 whole day. And the whole time, you’re mainly providing your time to DKing, while putting your RL in the backseat. Little to no sleep.

Anyways, proof via in-game resets helped reduce the amount of Sharingan users roaming around. And it’s easy to prove.

Anyone can say that they RP to get this skill, but then where’s the proof? The person would need some type of “documentation”. Anyone can say that they RP to get this skill. It really takes only 4 to 5 posts to require a skill. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it can go like this:

1st post: First time training
2nd post: After a few days of training
3rd post: After a week of training
4th post: After a month of training
5th post: You have acquired this skill

Now that can be done in 15 hours or less. >.>
This relates to what Bocc said earlier.


Anyway...when it came to custom jutsu. Zenaku, Mei, FlamingChaos, Mariko and myself used to chit chat about it. use it on each other, fix this, fix that. and ta dah. New jutsu was born. That was just my zoning circle of buddies. Everyone was doing it that way with their friends too. It worked. We moderated ourselves.

What is needed is sportsman like behavior and manners. IT always comes down to the fit throwing.

these are my rules...

behave
no character control
post before I die....
PLEASE?????

Ah, the good old days. I sure miss them.
And very true. If your zoning friends can accept your custom jutsus, then the general public should be able to as well..unless you’re zoning against a really strict person.


In regards to the Izanami & Izanagi, I do not understand why one would use either at the cost of an eye. You should make the cost a loss of a permanent Sharingan eye IC. >.>

Or…this where resets can help. Since those two are the most powerful techs, I think only a Grandmaster should be able to use it.

Are they really a lot of people using these moves?

I find it interesting that some people are banning Body Replacement technique. I personally only use this move once per fight (if at all) though.

Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Warren on January 13, 2015, 05:29:35 pm
Nobody bothers with izanami, one can just say they already know and accept who they are and poof, wasted eye. Izanani though, rare for those with just two eyes, but those who somehow stack more on their body like it. Its basically their get out of death free card after all.

As for kawarimi, its kind of the same as kage bunshin used to be. Basically; oh you thought you hit me? Lolol, I was never there, it was just a kawarimi clone all along. Kawarimi is worse though in the sense that not spotting the swap is equal to admitting your opponent is so much faster you can't see them move at top speed. Only exception is a visual distraction during which you pull it off, but I don't think anybody does that really.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Teostra on January 14, 2015, 05:33:39 pm
Custom jutsu are frowned upon now-a-days? That really blows because Teo's whole moveset was basically custom in a way (but I don't RP anymore, because of all the drama that seems to be tied to RPing these days). Hell, back in the day, everyone had their own custom moves because that was back when there still wasn't a huge selection of moves to pick from in the actual series. And as long as the move wasn't some 'You're Already Dead no Jutsu' and was fair and had rules, it was accepted. If custom moves are really banned, then there's no way I'll ever come back because that's just a big fun limiter.

But back to the topic at hand, honestly, I think the only moves that should be banned (besides the kawarimi because it's cheap as hell. Hell, even clones can be pretty cheap if abused, especially with that body-flicker technique) are those truth-seeking balls. Unless people here now use say that they're the reborn sage of the six paths. Because I could swear that only people who can tap into the sage's powers (so people who are the reborn Indra, Asura, or people who have the ten-tails). Because at that point you're pretty much god-modding in the full aspect of it (because let's admit it, Naruto was basically a god at that point).
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Warren on January 14, 2015, 06:05:47 pm
Shunshin is the one thing I hate above all else. Everybody treats it like a goddamn teleport, when its only fast speed movement. Hell I've never even truly thought of it as a fast speed movement, just an optic diversion during which you move in their blind angle.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Teostra on January 15, 2015, 12:18:58 am
Shunshin is the one thing I hate above all else. Everybody treats it like a goddamn teleport, when its only fast speed movement. Hell I've never even truly thought of it as a fast speed movement, just an optic diversion during which you move in their blind angle.

I believe that a whole lot of people confuse shunshin with that thing the 4th hokage did. Technically, he was fast. But that teleportation he did was always a swap with a pre-placed/thrown kunai.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on January 15, 2015, 02:15:35 am
Shunshin is the one thing I hate above all else. Everybody treats it like a goddamn teleport, when its only fast speed movement. Hell I've never even truly thought of it as a fast speed movement, just an optic diversion during which you move in their blind angle.



I believe that a whole lot of people confuse shunshin with that thing the 4th hokage did. Technically, he was fast. But that teleportation he did was always a swap with a pre-placed/thrown kunai.


It was not a swap, it was a teleport straight to the marked kunai. That was space-time ninjutsu. It would not surprise me one bit if they ever came out that Minato used chakra to enhance his speed so that he could quickly use hiraishin and perform actions with it.

Custom techniques are not banned. Anyone who has seen me fight knows for sure that custom techniques as a whole are not banned. In case you haven't though, 1/2 if not more of my arsenal is custom with only what is left actually canon.

Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: TakaharuChusaki on January 16, 2015, 12:43:38 am
I think part of the reason people use Shunshin as a teleportation technique is the anime/games for some reason translate it to Teleportation Jutsu. Even Shisui is called 'Shisui of Teleportation' for that matter.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Warren on January 16, 2015, 01:51:31 am
Because he's simply so fast it looks like he teleported, even when he actually didn't.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Suishou Koji on January 18, 2015, 08:32:28 am
-nods-
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Lazy Oogakari, Steel on January 18, 2015, 05:46:42 pm
Quote
However, I don't jump ahead and watch the Japanese dub. I stick with the English.)
Me too.
On another point.
I think resets could be gotten through rp, but only one except the Rinnegan since that thing is op even if you only can the five elements perk or shinra tensei....
Izanami and Izanagi....
My character does not know about either and he is an uchiha.

 :smt064
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Kage on January 18, 2015, 06:30:46 pm
On the subject of Shunshin, it's really just high-speed movement propelled by chakra use. So the longer of a distance that you want to go, the more chakra that is used. Though it's usage is only really acceptable by others when travelling around. And it's not so much of a voided technique in battle. In all actuality, it's more like the participants agreeing to not using Shunshin. But once someone pulls it out, then all hell breaks loose with Shunshin-dodging everywhere.

Just be warned though. If you're an acad that's trying to out-speed someone of Jounin level, then you're obviously going to be out-done. And more reasonably, Shunshin isn't going to help you against someone with the Sharingan or Byakugan. They'll either see you moving, or see where you ended up moving, respectively. And don't try to pull out that "My hand and overall speed movements are faster than the Sharingan can see" garbage. The only way that is possible is through Shunshin while using Lightning Release Chakra Mode. But even then, you better watch out that your opponent doesn't start to call out the amount of chakra usage using both techniques requires.

This is a part of the reason why I like to open up with kunai, shuriken, conventional weapons and simpler techniques. It starts the match/spar off at a level where you can gauge whether or not your opponent will overpower or counter those attacks with their wits, or with big technique spam.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Uchiha Madara on January 21, 2015, 01:43:20 am
One jutsu I hate with a searing passion that should be banned because of it's sheer stupidity, is Kawarimi no Jutsu. I find that anybody using this jutsu thinks of it as some sort of Hiraishin. Sense its not, its simply high speed movement like Shunshin, but with the completely asinine point of running BACK to only put a log or what have you in your place. Whats even worse is that the jutsu is described as, "....users replace their own body with some other object, generally with a block of wood, the moment an attack lands. This creates an optical illusion, making the enemy think the attack was successful." Really? So you just happen to have the speed to move faster than light, or fast enough to leave an afterimage, only to run back with an object from hammerspace for a ,"Ha ha, I fooled you!"??

Granted I could forgive almost all of this, if it weren't for the fact its a general ninjutsu. No genjutsu, no henge to make it look like you; you just do it...
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Ѕhadow on January 21, 2015, 01:47:17 am
One jutsu I hate with a searing passion that should be banned because of it's sheer stupidity, is Kawarimi no Jutsu. I find that anybody using this jutsu thinks of it as some sort of Hiraishin. Sense its not, its simply high speed movement like Shunshin, but with the completely asinine point of running BACK to only put a log or what have you in your place. Whats even worse is that the jutsu is described as, "....users replace their own body with some other object, generally with a block of wood, the moment an attack lands. This creates an optical illusion, making the enemy think the attack was successful." Really? So you just happen to have the speed to move faster than light, or fast enough to leave an afterimage, only to run back with an object from hammerspace for a ,"Ha ha, I fooled you!"??

Granted I could forgive almost all of this, if it weren't for the fact its a general ninjutsu. No genjutsu, no henge to make it look like you; you just do it...

I have never had anyone use that against me in a fight. Nonetheless I would void it cause of the sheer speed on would have to have to do that.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on January 21, 2015, 01:58:59 am
One jutsu I hate with a searing passion that should be banned because of it's sheer stupidity, is Kawarimi no Jutsu. I find that anybody using this jutsu thinks of it as some sort of Hiraishin. Sense its not, its simply high speed movement like Shunshin, but with the completely asinine point of running BACK to only put a log or what have you in your place. Whats even worse is that the jutsu is described as, "....users replace their own body with some other object, generally with a block of wood, the moment an attack lands. This creates an optical illusion, making the enemy think the attack was successful." Really? So you just happen to have the speed to move faster than light, or fast enough to leave an afterimage, only to run back with an object from hammerspace for a ,"Ha ha, I fooled you!"??

Granted I could forgive almost all of this, if it weren't for the fact its a general ninjutsu. No genjutsu, no henge to make it look like you; you just do it...

I have never had anyone use that against me in a fight. Nonetheless I would void it cause of the sheer speed on would have to have to do that.

Unless it was prepped beforehand, like it most likely is in the canon series.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Garō, Ichirou on January 21, 2015, 02:01:23 am
What exactly preps that move? i mean I could see it as some sort of Kuchiyose like technique that switches the position between you and the object like that, but Idon'tknow
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on January 21, 2015, 02:07:26 am
What exactly preps that move? i mean I could see it as some sort of Kuchiyose like technique that switches the position between you and the object like that, but Idon'tknow

Use an illusionary technique to disguise the log or scroll or whatever you decide to use. It doesn't seem like the substitute stays faked for very long, so it would probably require a diversionary tactic first to use properly, hence why it fell out in usage in battles where distractions were not aplenty.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Garō, Ichirou on January 21, 2015, 02:27:49 am
Yeah but is the body switching just shunshin speed? Or do they switch simultanesouly
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Becquerel on January 21, 2015, 02:32:48 am
Use an illusionary technique to disguise the log or scroll or whatever you decide to use. It doesn't seem like the substitute stays faked for very long, so it would probably require a diversionary tactic first to use properly, hence why it fell out in usage in battles where distractions were not aplenty.

I always figured it worked similarly to how Naruto disguised one of his clones as a fuuma shuriken.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Ѕhadow on January 21, 2015, 02:49:28 am
If it's just simple illusion or genjutsu then it won't work on SL anyways since we're all Uchiha whores.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on January 21, 2015, 04:55:55 am
If it's just simple illusion or genjutsu then it won't work on SL anyways since we're all Uchiha whores.

Normally, the sharingan cannot differentiate between shadow clones perfectly every time (with Madara being the exception). With some creativity I am sure it could be done.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Uchiha Madara on January 22, 2015, 12:20:21 am
One jutsu I hate with a searing passion that should be banned because of it's sheer stupidity, is Kawarimi no Jutsu. I find that anybody using this jutsu thinks of it as some sort of Hiraishin. Sense its not, its simply high speed movement like Shunshin, but with the completely asinine point of running BACK to only put a log or what have you in your place. Whats even worse is that the jutsu is described as, "....users replace their own body with some other object, generally with a block of wood, the moment an attack lands. This creates an optical illusion, making the enemy think the attack was successful." Really? So you just happen to have the speed to move faster than light, or fast enough to leave an afterimage, only to run back with an object from hammerspace for a ,"Ha ha, I fooled you!"??

Granted I could forgive almost all of this, if it weren't for the fact its a general ninjutsu. No genjutsu, no henge to make it look like you; you just do it...

I have never had anyone use that against me in a fight. Nonetheless I would void it cause of the sheer speed on would have to have to do that.

Unless it was prepped beforehand, like it most likely is in the canon series.

But that begs the question, even if it prepared, where are you getting it from? Space-Time? That could work, but cries out abuse. High speed movement? If your moving that fast that your opponent can't see you move out of the way the moment an attack technically "hits" you (I assume the user moves fast enough before the total energy of the attack transfers to you, which is speed the likes The Flash will applaud you for.) summon a log from some scroll, and place it back before they are the wiser, you are already at god-like levels compared to that ninja.

Mad because I should be dead by your Rasen-Shuriken? Its all good bro, I substituted the moment it hit, to give you the optical illusion of me being it, without me actually being hit. Its all science you wouldn't understand.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Warren on January 22, 2015, 12:32:53 am
To my understanding it varies. Either you simpy manually switch a nearby object with yourself faster than the enemy can see or while they're distracted, or you summon something over like an animal like zabuza did and swap with that.

A normal hare for example isn't a summon animal, so it'd be easy keeping it in its cage, only to be called over when necessary.

Both ways still require speed or an optic diversion though.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Becquerel on January 22, 2015, 12:46:48 am
Like I mentioned earlier, it is likely similar to how it worked when Naruto turned a shadow clone into a shuriken. Still, it's very silly considering it means you were fighting a log, basically.
I like to think of it as the poor man's shadow clone. Basically, instead of creating a clone from nothing, you use an object as a base. But shadow clones are just silly in all aspects anyway, so this just furthers the silliness.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on January 22, 2015, 12:53:25 am
One jutsu I hate with a searing passion that should be banned because of it's sheer stupidity, is Kawarimi no Jutsu. I find that anybody using this jutsu thinks of it as some sort of Hiraishin. Sense its not, its simply high speed movement like Shunshin, but with the completely asinine point of running BACK to only put a log or what have you in your place. Whats even worse is that the jutsu is described as, "....users replace their own body with some other object, generally with a block of wood, the moment an attack lands. This creates an optical illusion, making the enemy think the attack was successful." Really? So you just happen to have the speed to move faster than light, or fast enough to leave an afterimage, only to run back with an object from hammerspace for a ,"Ha ha, I fooled you!"??

Granted I could forgive almost all of this, if it weren't for the fact its a general ninjutsu. No genjutsu, no henge to make it look like you; you just do it...

I have never had anyone use that against me in a fight. Nonetheless I would void it cause of the sheer speed on would have to have to do that.

Unless it was prepped beforehand, like it most likely is in the canon series.

But that begs the question, even if it prepared, where are you getting it from? Space-Time? That could work, but cries out abuse. High speed movement? If your moving that fast that your opponent can't see you move out of the way the moment an attack technically "hits" you (I assume the user moves fast enough before the total energy of the attack transfers to you, which is speed the likes The Flash will applaud you for.) summon a log from some scroll, and place it back before they are the wiser, you are already at god-like levels compared to that ninja.

Mad because I should be dead by your Rasen-Shuriken? Its all good bro, I substituted the moment it hit, to give you the optical illusion of me being it, without me actually being hit. Its all science you wouldn't understand.


Alright, let me construct a scenario then to illustrate my point:

Two shinobi are in a battle. Let's say Eric vs Ichirou (Uchiha not Hyuga). Using the hiding in shadow technique, Eric manages to conceal himself from Ichirou's sharingan for a short time. While hidden, Eric takes out a blank scroll and transforms it into a clone of himself. Approaching Ichirou with both, Eric first has the dummy attempt to sneak attack Ichirou from the back. Already at a slight disadvantage because his vision is limited, Ichirou very rapidly strikes at the assaulter with Ameratsu.

Upon being struck, the dummy turns into the scroll, now set ablaze in black flames; Ichirou realizes that he has been tricked just in time for the real Eric to attempt a thousand shuriken attack from his blind side.

Most substitutions in the series were performed by those who were either able to foresee their opponent's attack and plan accordingly, or, like the example, were able to include it in their plan of attack. Once everyone could sense practically everything by part II, the substitution technique largely became a null technique to use, especially since most of the time it was more efficient to just use a regular shadow clone as the dummy (more versatile) or just directly attack the opponent while he/she is distracted.


http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Body_Replacement_Technique

The trivia presents an interesting take on how ninja in real life used a similar concept, though the exact details of how they pulled it off are a bit vague from just the page alone.



*post-script: The technique requires handsigns according to the wikia, so in order to use it exactly as dictated on the wikia, it would require some build-up of chakra.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Warren on January 22, 2015, 01:07:29 am
Except your example wouldn't really work, unless you and the henge'd scroll were falling towards him or something.

Henge, or whatever illusion kawarimi uses, can only alter the shape of whatever its used on. It can't animate it.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Becquerel on January 22, 2015, 01:14:21 am
Except your example wouldn't really work, unless you and the henge'd scroll were falling towards him or something.

Henge, or whatever illusion kawarimi uses, can only alter the shape of whatever its used on. It can't animate it.

So that supports my idea of a poor man's shadow clone.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on January 22, 2015, 01:29:19 am
Except your example wouldn't really work, unless you and the henge'd scroll were falling towards him or something.

Henge, or whatever illusion kawarimi uses, can only alter the shape of whatever its used on. It can't animate it.

Considering that when you transform into something, you can use chakra (presumably) to walk and/or move like the transformed shape, I imagine something of that sort would be possible, especially if you manipulate the object using chakra. An acad would obviously not be moving the substitution around nearly as much, but an experienced user probably could.

Of course, my example was to illustrate my point that the technique would need to be prepared for beforehand in order for it to be usable. How it is prepared for beforehand I suppose is up for debate, so as Becquerel stated, it might just be the original shadow clone technique before Tobirama came up with one made entirely made up of chakra.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Warren on January 22, 2015, 02:50:00 am
Henge into something inanimate, you're just as stuck put as transforming some kawarimi object. Henge into an animal or other person, then you can move, though as name says its an illusion so naturally there's a limit to just what the human body can bend to imitate.

Only way a non kage bunshin or other such a clone can move on its own is normal bunshin, and even those only copy your own movements since they're naught but incorporeal images, and follow you around right next to you instead of free movement.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on January 22, 2015, 03:08:37 am
Henge into something inanimate, you're just as stuck put as transforming some kawarimi object. Henge into an animal or other person, then you can move, though as name says its an illusion so naturally there's a limit to just what the human body can bend to imitate.

Only way a non kage bunshin or other such a clone can move on its own is normal bunshin, and even those only copy your own movements since they're naught but incorporeal images, and follow you around right next to you instead of free movement.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Clone_Technique

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Crow_Clone_Technique

Illusionary clones can move independently of the user, and as presented by the crow clone techhnique, the "poor man's clone" explanation is not implausible for the substitution technique, or at least how it could be applied here on SL.

Additionally, while transformed, you are not "stuck" and unable to move while being the inanimate object, simply that moving as an inanimate object would defeat the purpose of transforming into an object that is not supposed to move.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Warren on January 22, 2015, 03:07:37 pm
Crow essentially is a poor man's kage bunshin, but not in kawarimi sense because the crows are living things capable of actually moving according to your chakra/will.

Okay, bunshin does not always copy the originals moves completely all the time, but you get my point >_>; its an incorporeal illusion, you can't kawarimi with it, it can't fight for you, and it does not fool a single doujutsu either.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on January 22, 2015, 10:49:42 pm
Crow essentially is a poor man's kage bunshin, but not in kawarimi sense because the crows are living things capable of actually moving according to your chakra/will.

Okay, bunshin does not always copy the originals moves completely all the time, but you get my point >_>; its an incorporeal illusion, you can't kawarimi with it, it can't fight for you, and it does not fool a single doujutsu either.

I don't see how crow clone couldn't be used for substitution, since I am sure we have seen objects such as logs, scrolls, and the like be manipulated to move with chakra.

And the illusionary clone would only have to give the brief appearance of trickery, it would not have to necessarily go all out as in my example (though again, with chakra, it should be quite possible considering what is possible in the realms) nor fool for very long. How many body replacement techniques from the series were even used against dojutsu users?
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Warren on January 22, 2015, 11:36:54 pm
Didn't say crow can't be used for it. I meant its different from kawarimi because its crows banding together to form an actual body, as opposed to you casting a genjutsu over an object to make it look like you as is done in kawarimi.

Don't really get what you mean with the not needing to fool thing. Bunshin has no solid shape so you've nothing to swap places with, your hands would just pass through soooo...

Kawarimi was used on occasion if memory serves, though without much success. Otherwise only really Oro's body replacement or what was it called, and Madara swapping with his Limbo shadow.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on January 22, 2015, 11:57:50 pm
Didn't say crow can't be used for it. I meant its different from kawarimi because its crows banding together to form an actual body, as opposed to you casting a genjutsu over an object to make it look like you as is done in kawarimi.

Don't really get what you mean with the not needing to fool thing. Bunshin has no solid shape so you've nothing to swap places with, your hands would just pass through soooo...

Kawarimi was used on occasion if memory serves, though without much success. Otherwise only really Oro's body replacement or what was it called, and Madara swapping with his Limbo shadow.


When the sub poofed, the weapons and/or damage that was shown to be applied to the replacement object. As a result, the clone would not have to be entirely tangible for it to be effective. Again, it is less place swapping and more preparation, since as earlier noted, a place swap that takes only a split second is pretty OP, even for SL standards.

It is hardly any different, the crows were completely unharmed when Sasuke stabbed through them; the body was an illusion facilitated by the physical presence of the crows. The crows additionally can act as further triggers for more genjutsu, or themselve might very well be illusionary. Knowing Itachi, it could have gone either way really.

Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Bocchiere on January 23, 2015, 05:48:50 am
Why don't we just agree to not use substitution instead of arguing about to what degree of stupid it is?
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Becquerel on January 23, 2015, 05:50:26 am
Why don't we just agree to not use substitution instead of arguing about to what degree or stupid it is?

I figured that was an unsaid agreement and people were just trying to figure out the different kinds of substitutions and how they work.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Eric on January 23, 2015, 06:06:11 am
Why don't we just agree to not use substitution instead of arguing about to what degree or stupid it is?

I figured that was an unsaid agreement and people were just trying to figure out the different kinds of substitutions and how they work.

Discussing on how substitution would work, ya know ya know.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Garō, Ichirou on January 23, 2015, 07:37:13 am
I've never really seen Substitution used, outside of spars that I've had with ShadowlordJayJay wherein he would throw a Kunai and then utilize Kawarimi no Mai to switch with it. I'm not really sure if this would be considered "proper" usage of the technique but I didn't say anything about if at the time, outside of that i've never really seen anyone try to use it.

Except for the Occasional person who doesn't know what they're doing and they wait until they literally get hit with something and then they're all like "that was a log lololololololol"
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Mei on January 28, 2015, 02:01:45 am
I've never really seen Substitution used, outside of spars that I've had with ShadowlordJayJay wherein he would throw a Kunai and then utilize Kawarimi no Mai to switch with it. I'm not really sure if this would be considered "proper" usage of the technique but I didn't say anything about if at the time, outside of that i've never really seen anyone try to use it.

Except for the Occasional person who doesn't know what they're doing and they wait until they literally get hit with something and then they're all like "that was a log lololololololol"

I was thinking the same thing. Like how many people even use the tech now?
That was one of my favorite jutsus when used correctly. But I only use it once per fight. 
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Kage on January 28, 2015, 03:50:03 am
I would think though, that the only time that the Substitution Technique or Shunshin would be allowed is if you're trying to teach or train somebody. Or if it's just casual RP, and not turning into anything serious.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: KayentaMoenkopi on January 28, 2015, 07:43:24 am
I have seen some pretty hilarious substitutions in my day.

oh wait, that was when we played at zoning.

The kawarimi someone's sword with a fish still makes me weak in the knees.
Title: Re: Ban Techniques?
Post by: Bocchiere on January 28, 2015, 08:21:00 am
I always wanted to switch with the person I was fighting and make them get hit with their own attack.