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Author Topic: Jashinism  (Read 12490 times)

Kage

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2014, 05:42:16 PM »

I'm officially calling for a lock, since Kamui has yet to make a single salient point.

Yes Kamui that does describe how I use the jutsu. What else would I say? "Bocchiere quickly leaves the battle to hunt down a deer to slaughter and make the circle with."? It does not say that is a requirement for the jutsu to be used, it just describes how I use it in a fight. I'll change it to the canon description from the manga wiki if you like, I just wanted to spice mine up a bit. Otherwise you're literally just arguing what I am saying about how my jutsu works is not what I am saying.

Correct me if I am wrong but literally no one has agreed with Kamui at this point and said "Yes you definitely cannot make a circle of old blood and do this." right? I mean most of the people haven't even bothered to read the previous posts before responding. Kage brought things up that are either not provable (zombies can't do the jutsu) or flat-out wrong (needs to be your own blood).

I have several cracked vertebrae (which my Kaguya could just repair) and a severed bundle of nerves about half an inch thick. I don't know why that'd take 4 posts, or why you are arguing something that has no bearing to this discussion, but 4 posts says when something would kill you. Last I checked I'm a Jashinist and that wouldn't kill me. That's 1 turn, minor damage, at best. I am quite literally regenerating less damage than if I had cut off the tip of my finger. You loophole to keep your KG and I can loophole the damage chart.

I'm still waiting on any relevant information appearing.
You missed the point, which was that Kamui should have the option of voiding the statue since it's a custom item that is on equal to or greater than levels of power and of same abilities of the Gedo Mazo, which is an item that had been discussed before as requiring multiple notable resets and RP to claim, summon and control.

I'm also still a bit skeptical about the thing with Acuna not being the first to claim the Mountain's Graveyard. If we could get him to confirm this, then that would be put to rest. I don't really see anything in your bio on your personal site, or wikia profile, about you having founded/established/claimed the Mountain's Graveyard as your personal hideout. One would think that when claiming a certain land, location or territory, that they would list it as being under their ownership somewhere. I mean you had 4 years, as you said, to do this.
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2014, 07:43:52 PM »

I'm officially calling for a lock, since Kamui has yet to make a single salient point.

Yes Kamui that does describe how I use the jutsu. What else would I say? "Bocchiere quickly leaves the battle to hunt down a deer to slaughter and make the circle with."? It does not say that is a requirement for the jutsu to be used, it just describes how I use it in a fight. I'll change it to the canon description from the manga wiki if you like, I just wanted to spice mine up a bit. Otherwise you're literally just arguing what I am saying about how my jutsu works is not what I am saying.

Correct me if I am wrong but literally no one has agreed with Kamui at this point and said "Yes you definitely cannot make a circle of old blood and do this." right? I mean most of the people haven't even bothered to read the previous posts before responding. Kage brought things up that are either not provable (zombies can't do the jutsu) or flat-out wrong (needs to be your own blood).

I have several cracked vertebrae (which my Kaguya could just repair) and a severed bundle of nerves about half an inch thick. I don't know why that'd take 4 posts, or why you are arguing something that has no bearing to this discussion, but 4 posts says when something would kill you. Last I checked I'm a Jashinist and that wouldn't kill me. That's 1 turn, minor damage, at best. I am quite literally regenerating less damage than if I had cut off the tip of my finger. You loophole to keep your KG and I can loophole the damage chart.

I'm still waiting on any relevant information appearing.
You missed the point, which was that Kamui should have the option of voiding the statue since it's a custom item that is on equal to or greater than levels of power and of same abilities of the Gedo Mazo, which is an item that had been discussed before as requiring multiple notable resets and RP to claim, summon and control.

I'm also still a bit skeptical about the thing with Acuna not being the first to claim the Mountain's Graveyard. If we could get him to confirm this, then that would be put to rest. I don't really see anything in your bio on your personal site, or wikia profile, about you having founded/established/claimed the Mountain's Graveyard as your personal hideout. One would think that when claiming a certain land, location or territory, that they would list it as being under their ownership somewhere. I mean you had 4 years, as you said, to do this.

Kage honestly? If you want to argue about the rp legitimacy on here again and again and again even after Bocc gave you ALL the info you needed then leave.

He had this statue before the Gedo was a thing. I told Kyu to go and claim it. I would know.

Also about him not claiming it on the Wiki. I've had more time than him to list my own claims on there and I don't. Why? It's not a rule. I do not have to. Bocc has shown the timeline which he has claimed it. Once again you keep trying to throw useless information in here. No one has disagreed with him except you on rp legitimacy, because it is legit. Also check his site link.

"Kage is completely wrong? What a surprise.

#1 The page you sent me says it was made last year in March. I made my Akatsuki roughly, what, 4 years ago originally? I always claimed the Mountains' Graveyard, as soon as that was revealed to be their base. I even remember when Meikai made that page, by the date it seems like it was right after I got banned. I said in the rp when I beat Kamui the first time that I took him to my hideout in the Mountains' Graveyard, which if you remember was SLIGHTLY before Meikai decided to claim my hideout. I told Tsuyo to tell Mekai I claimed Mountains' Graveyard ages ago.

#2 I've had this statue for literally years as well, shockingly you just have no idea what you're talking about so you're assuming things.
http://jashinistbocchiere.webs.com/summoningcontracts.htm
I was using the statue as my own Mazo, I extracted the 6 tails from Kamui with it.

Literally the first line of Mainyu's bio "Angra Mainyu was initially believed to be the a god of darkness reliant on solely on complete an utter destruction. But in reality, he was no more than an ordinary villager." Not that I would accept him claiming to actually be God anymore than I accept YOU actually claiming to be god. My statue isn't a god either, it's an animate statue I made for cool stuff.

I still love the people telling me I don't rp a Jashinist correctly. It's a religion, there can be different denominations. I think considering I've killed LITERALLY thousands of people IC Jashin is pretty cool with me. There is also the part that the immortality is the same thing Oro did to himself essentially, "Hidan's immortality is due to the "successful experiment of the Jashin religion's secret technique" and has absolutely nothing to do with religious practices I do or do not follow.

#3 "He then draws Jashin's symbol on the ground in blood and stands in the centre"

Blood, not his blood, just blood. His blood is the most easily obtainable of course, so why would he attempt to use anyone else's? There is no reason to assume an Edo zombie can't use the jutsu either.

Now that I've proven Kage and Kamui completely wrong, as usual, can Kamui go post getting his neck broken? Worst case scenario I got get another akatsuki member and get some blood from them to make a circle with and still kill Kamui."




This is filled with quotes from Bocc answering all the questions Kage gave. Kage he answered them all. He claimed the Graveyward before anyone. I was in his original Akatsuki. He has rp'ed this all before. It's his. Now to move onto the actual subject at hand. The blood.

Bocc, you made a mistake in your post. If the chamber is sealed and there's no airways to get in or out. Basically if it's airtight then no dust can form. You can look up on Google if needed for what dust is made of.
 
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Camel

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2014, 07:46:02 PM »

Honestly I have to laugh when I actually provided links and excerpts from the manga, yet that still isn't proof enough; even when I get excerpts from Bocchiere's own bio page, it's not viable as "circumstantial evidence".

I was a bit skeptical about this whole statue thing, since it was popped out of the blue in order to kill a character off without any effort.

And when I actually tried to compromise with the man, It was basically contradiction to everything he ever said.
Telling me it was no use since I can't avoid it and I have no way of knowing it, hence I can't defend myself and therefore must kill off Kamui.

In short, this is not a discussion topic, these are the rules my clan will be following, don't like it? Don't rp with us. If anyone wants to continue to be a troll and say, "I invented Dogs/Snakes/Sharks, no one can have them without my permission!"  then be my guest, I will be ignoring you as you will no doubt be ignoring me.
Jinchuuriki should totally take this to heart if they don't want to deal with Akatsuki. Akatsuki's leader gave the O.K! (No takebacks)

If worse comes to worse, I just might take this "ignore Bocchiere" to heart and void everything; not even procure the information I needed with my character and just not involve myself in any of Bocchiere's biased Roleplays.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 07:55:02 PM by Camel »
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2014, 07:54:29 PM »

How do you compromise with someone wanting to kill you? Oh You'll only be dead on Monday, Friday and every other Sunday? xD

I'm still failing to see an issue here...so you live even after his jutsu doesn't work? Okay then he finds out and does it again with a NEW circle and drinks your blood. Then what?

Sure void his current rp jutsu against you, but the second time he does it, where's your fallback?
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Camel

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2014, 08:07:07 PM »

How do you compromise with someone wanting to kill you? Oh You'll only be dead on Monday, Friday and every other Sunday? xD

I'm still failing to see an issue here...so you live even after his jutsu doesn't work? Okay then he finds out and does it again with a NEW circle and drinks your blood. Then what?

Sure void his current rp jutsu against you, but the second time he does it, where's your fallback?

Doesn't sound like the unbiased opinion I was hoping for.
Welp. It went like this, I can basically either use Izanagi or Kamui on myself to avoid the damage but like Bocchiere said before he wants to exploit his own loopholes when it comes to Edo Tensei and make it only one post regeneration, when it's four for damage that would inflict death upon the user; hence the cheating for another shot at a character death without any effort. (When I haven't exploited any loopholes; I still don't have my other left eye, just my right one that was "supposedly destroyed" by Bocchiere)
I also even offer my aid in the Akatsuki since that what you guys are doing now.
Bullying the jinchuuriki to join or you will destroy their village.  :roll:

Quote from: Bocchiere
From: ----------------- offline
Subject:
Sent: 2014-05-10 04:58:49
Reply   Forward   < Previous    Next >

No you can't you can't possibly predict this is about to hit you

This is what I was met with.

Quote
Sure void his current rp jutsu against you, but the second time he does it, where's your fallback?

You misunderstand me. I would void everything I done till now and just ignore Bocchiere and the Akatsuki; which means you guys.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 08:09:18 PM by Camel »
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2014, 08:15:57 PM »

How do you compromise with someone wanting to kill you? Oh You'll only be dead on Monday, Friday and every other Sunday? xD

I'm still failing to see an issue here...so you live even after his jutsu doesn't work? Okay then he finds out and does it again with a NEW circle and drinks your blood. Then what?

Sure void his current rp jutsu against you, but the second time he does it, where's your fallback?

Doesn't sound like the unbiased opinion I was hoping for.
Welp. It went like this, I can basically either use Izanagi or Kamui on myself to avoid the damage but like Bocchiere said before he wants to exploit his own loopholes when it comes to Edo Tensei and make it only one post regeneration, when it's four for damage that would inflict death upon the user; hence the cheating for another shot at a character death without any effort. (When I haven't exploited any loopholes; I still don't have my other left eye, just my right one that was "supposedly destroyed" by Bocchiere)
I also even offer my aid in the Akatsuki since that what you guys are doing now.
Bullying the jinchuuriki to join or you will destroy their village.  :roll:

Quote from: Bocchiere
From: ----------------- offline
Subject:
Sent: 2014-05-10 04:58:49
Reply   Forward   < Previous    Next >

No you can't you can't possibly predict this is about to hit you

This is what I was met with.

Quote
Sure void his current rp jutsu against you, but the second time he does it, where's your fallback?

You misunderstand me. I would void everything I done till now and just ignore Bocchiere and the Akatsuki; which means you guys.

So you become the Harvey Dent of SL? Bocc finally broke you to where you fall to the same tricks as him?

Bocc calls for one post regeneration because his kg allows him to do such. If I'm not mistaken kg falls over even to edo zombies. So his bones do regenerate quick and he is made of threading. Or do we void any kg that would overpower the regeneration rate? Something you guys missed when redoing the edo rules apparently. So that needs to be talked about. Other than that you can't use Uchiha powers to avoid it. That's not right. You're using the basis of an undefined rule to use against him. As said the rule being does kg overpower the regeneration rate.
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Camel

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2014, 08:25:58 PM »

Well if his KG calls for exploits then that would mean Uzumaki/Senju can use the same basis to avoid moderate damage and regenerate quicker.
I am part Senju and part Uchiha.
So would this mean my extended life-force grant me the necessity to survive? By all means explain this to me, Shadow.

Quote
- "Minor Damage" (1 turn regeneration period)

    *broken limbs, cuts that would cause bleeding

This right here is minor damage. The same that Bocchiere is trying to get away with and something seems off...nothing about broken necks. Ahhh...wait a minute.

Quote
"Death" (4 turn regeneration period & forced immobilization)

    *Damage that would result in for-sure death had the zombie been "alive" a.k.a. chidori, getting beheaded, etc.

This is the correct one.


Quote
- To give a zombie an implant, something else must be traded off for it. Ex. I give a zombie a sharingan implant, but he loses the ability to use Mokuton, etc.

Also another I could bring up is the usage of Bocchiere's implants.
Which he still retains everything that he had when was alive but didn't knock one off as accordingly to these rules.
I mean Kaguya and Joingu? Really? You see nothing wrong here? :roll:

Undefined rules? You and Bocchiere were there when Zojin made a topic about it. Quit lying for your clan. (What about Otogakure? You forget about us?)
Harvey Dent? C'mon I figure myself to be the Joker in some sense. :oops:
But like I said if worse comes to worse; I'll do what I have to do.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 08:29:32 PM by Camel »
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2014, 08:37:13 PM »

How do you compromise with someone wanting to kill you? Oh You'll only be dead on Monday, Friday and every other Sunday? xD

I'm still failing to see an issue here...so you live even after his jutsu doesn't work? Okay then he finds out and does it again with a NEW circle and drinks your blood. Then what?

Sure void his current rp jutsu against you, but the second time he does it, where's your fallback?

Doesn't sound like the unbiased opinion I was hoping for.
Welp. It went like this, I can basically either use Izanagi or Kamui on myself to avoid the damage but like Bocchiere said before he wants to exploit his own loopholes when it comes to Edo Tensei and make it only one post regeneration, when it's four for damage that would inflict death upon the user; hence the cheating for another shot at a character death without any effort. (When I haven't exploited any loopholes; I still don't have my other left eye, just my right one that was "supposedly destroyed" by Bocchiere)
I also even offer my aid in the Akatsuki since that what you guys are doing now.
Bullying the jinchuuriki to join or you will destroy their village.  :roll:

Quote from: Bocchiere
From: ----------------- offline
Subject:
Sent: 2014-05-10 04:58:49
Reply   Forward   < Previous    Next >

No you can't you can't possibly predict this is about to hit you

This is what I was met with.

Quote
Sure void his current rp jutsu against you, but the second time he does it, where's your fallback?

You misunderstand me. I would void everything I done till now and just ignore Bocchiere and the Akatsuki; which means you guys.

So you become the Harvey Dent of SL? Bocc finally broke you to where you fall to the same tricks as him?

Bocc calls for one post regeneration because his kg allows him to do such. If I'm not mistaken kg falls over even to edo zombies. So his bones do regenerate quick and he is made of threading. Or do we void any kg that would overpower the regeneration rate? Something you guys missed when redoing the edo rules apparently. So that needs to be talked about. Other than that you can't use Uchiha powers to avoid it. That's not right. You're using the basis of an undefined rule to use against him. As said the rule being does kg overpower the regeneration rate.

Uh, it has been shown, yes. Uzumaki people do heal quicker. For edo though I don't know. I was just saying for bloodlines outside of being an edo they do give you perks. Maybe? As I said I was basing my opinion on the fact that KG pass over.

Again I didn't know that implants needed to be traded off, I'm wrong in this sense. You edo people need to take it up with him and I will drop out about his wrong claims in the edo realm. Good luck to you.

I fail to see what Zojin has to do with this? Refresh me please as well as lying for my own clan, I am not. I really do not care to put one above the other seeing as how I like you more than the Akatsuki clan. I may seem against you, because I am, but not because the clan I'm in. I'm in MANY clans. The topic though, of the blood, I sit on it being there still. Nothing to do with who's clan I am. That's absurd.

Joker was always craycray and evil. You're more like Harvey Dent. Doing what you hate to do only when you have to.
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I'm going to agree with you on some things and disagree with you on some things.

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Darkshinobi

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2014, 09:14:24 PM »

I feel like looking at the idea of the technique itself, and where it came from.
Would Jashin really give a crap if his symbol was old or new? I believe a death god would just want death in his name, his name being represented by the technique user and the symbol.

This is a good point, if one believes the Jashin technique actually comes from Jashin and isn't simply another jutsu. Based on the requirements of the ritual -- namely that a ritual is required -- one could state that this is indeed the case.
Now, as to whether or not a god literally known as "evil god" would require fresh blood?
An argument could be made either way; the quote above shows one argument. The counter-argument is that Hidan literally prays to his god before a fight, as mentioned by Cameloui. This indicates that Jashin, like most other gods, requires devout sacrifice -- it is, afterall, a sacrifice to Jashin that purportedly gives Hidan his immortality. One could argue that Jashin'd see the dried, chapped blood of a previous ritual similar to recycling a gift, and not recognize it until the ritual's re-drawn.
However, this entire argument is moot because none of us can know for sure what Jashin would think except Jashin himself.

So, if the power for the ritual does come from Jashin, as previously inferred, then we actually need to get the opinion of the man who's already canonically claimed himself to be Jashin. Unless anyone's arguing Nashley's having called Jashin himself, he needs to be brought into this discussion about whether a dried ritual would work on that account or not.

Onto the next point: Could the dried blood have coagulated, flaked over time? Could it no longer have any chakra or spiritual significance? I think the lattermost is the point here. Chakra is described in the wikia as, "the moulding of the physical energy (身体エネルギー, shintai enerugī) present in every cell of the body and the spiritual energy (精神エネルギー, seishin enerugī) gained from the mind."
Chakra is vital to every single jutsu or form of "magic" in the Naruto world. It is the source of our magical power -- and if Jashin himself doesn't fuel the power of the ritual, then chakra does; namely the chakra in the blood that composes the ritual.
It may be impossible for us to decide one way or another for sure about how perfectly the ritual would be preserved (it's stated as dust having gathered, as others have mentioned; yet also dried blood can last in an undisturbed area for centuries. Dust, however, deems the area as at least slightly concerned) or not, but one can definitely judge that the chakra in the blood isn't there any longer; not after months and months, and certainly not with the amount in one's blood alone. Based on this, I'd argue that -- if the ritual isn't from Jashin's actual power but from Bocchiere's chakra -- then the ritual needs to be redone.

So, let's come to a decision here, then: what fuels the Jashinist rituals: Jashin himself, or the chakra that fuels practically everything else in this setting?
If it's the former and if the Jashin of this world doesn't mind dried, old blood then I'd say that the attack has succeeded. If it's the former and the Jashin declines unfresh blood or it's the latter and the chakra in the blood has faded, then I'd say the attack has failed.
---
And if it is deemed that Bocc's ritual doesn't kill Kamui, there are a few more things to keep in mind:
Just because it didn't kill Kamui doesn't mean that Bocc needs to repost. Bocc, in a new post and after recuperating, would need to make a new ritual, yes. But that doesn't mean that his current actions would or could be voided; he's done the ritual, he's snapped his own neck -- the question is whether or not the damage reflected onto Kamui.

And I confess that I didn't have time to read the entire post, but if it doesn't kill Kamui, will Bocc immediately know? If Kamui isn't in the area, I don't see any way for him to even tell. Without knowledge,  Bocchiere might not even know that his ritual had failed.

I suppose this my input.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 09:15:52 PM by Darkshinobi »
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Sabumaru

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2014, 10:34:28 PM »

I feel like looking at the idea of the technique itself, and where it came from.
Would Jashin really give a crap if his symbol was old or new? I believe a death god would just want death in his name, his name being represented by the technique user and the symbol.

This is a good point, if one believes the Jashin technique actually comes from Jashin and isn't simply another jutsu. Based on the requirements of the ritual -- namely that a ritual is required -- one could state that this is indeed the case.
Now, as to whether or not a god literally known as "evil god" would require fresh blood?
An argument could be made either way; the quote above shows one argument. The counter-argument is that Hidan literally prays to his god before a fight, as mentioned by Cameloui. This indicates that Jashin, like most other gods, requires devout sacrifice -- it is, afterall, a sacrifice to Jashin that purportedly gives Hidan his immortality. One could argue that Jashin'd see the dried, chapped blood of a previous ritual similar to recycling a gift, and not recognize it until the ritual's re-drawn.
However, this entire argument is moot because none of us can know for sure what Jashin would think except Jashin himself.

So, if the power for the ritual does come from Jashin, as previously inferred, then we actually need to get the opinion of the man who's already canonically claimed himself to be Jashin. Unless anyone's arguing Nashley's having called Jashin himself, he needs to be brought into this discussion about whether a dried ritual would work on that account or not.

Onto the next point: Could the dried blood have coagulated, flaked over time? Could it no longer have any chakra or spiritual significance? I think the lattermost is the point here. Chakra is described in the wikia as, "the moulding of the physical energy (身体エネルギー, shintai enerugī) present in every cell of the body and the spiritual energy (精神エネルギー, seishin enerugī) gained from the mind."
Chakra is vital to every single jutsu or form of "magic" in the Naruto world. It is the source of our magical power -- and if Jashin himself doesn't fuel the power of the ritual, then chakra does; namely the chakra in the blood that composes the ritual.
It may be impossible for us to decide one way or another for sure about how perfectly the ritual would be preserved (it's stated as dust having gathered, as others have mentioned; yet also dried blood can last in an undisturbed area for centuries. Dust, however, deems the area as at least slightly concerned) or not, but one can definitely judge that the chakra in the blood isn't there any longer; not after months and months, and certainly not with the amount in one's blood alone. Based on this, I'd argue that -- if the ritual isn't from Jashin's actual power but from Bocchiere's chakra -- then the ritual needs to be redone.

So, let's come to a decision here, then: what fuels the Jashinist rituals: Jashin himself, or the chakra that fuels practically everything else in this setting?
If it's the former and if the Jashin of this world doesn't mind dried, old blood then I'd say that the attack has succeeded. If it's the former and the Jashin declines unfresh blood or it's the latter and the chakra in the blood has faded, then I'd say the attack has failed.
---
And if it is deemed that Bocc's ritual doesn't kill Kamui, there are a few more things to keep in mind:
Just because it didn't kill Kamui doesn't mean that Bocc needs to repost. Bocc, in a new post and after recuperating, would need to make a new ritual, yes. But that doesn't mean that his current actions would or could be voided; he's done the ritual, he's snapped his own neck -- the question is whether or not the damage reflected onto Kamui.

And I confess that I didn't have time to read the entire post, but if it doesn't kill Kamui, will Bocc immediately know? If Kamui isn't in the area, I don't see any way for him to even tell. Without knowledge,  Bocchiere might not even know that his ritual had failed.

I suppose this my input.

Personally, I think all humans are biased in some way and just because Nashely claims to be Jashin shouldn't give him the final say in this.
I could go make an account right now named Jashin or something similar and claim to be the real deal. Would that give me the right to decide if new blood was required?
And if it did, that'd be pretty unfair to Kamui because I know I' biased (and right).

This really, truly comes down to Camel and Bocc getting over it. I would prefer if you two did ignore each other because you're both so rude and petty in either subtle or obvious ways and it's like watching teenage girls slap each other every freakin' time there's a forum topic about something. You can't have a doscussion without getting mean and trying to sway some invisible audience for your side as though it'll affect the outcome of your bitch-sessions.
Either kiss each other or just stop, please.
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Isaribi

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2014, 11:32:06 PM »

I feel like looking at the idea of the technique itself, and where it came from.
Would Jashin really give a crap if his symbol was old or new? I believe a death god would just want death in his name, his name being represented by the technique user and the symbol.

This is a good point, if one believes the Jashin technique actually comes from Jashin and isn't simply another jutsu. Based on the requirements of the ritual -- namely that a ritual is required -- one could state that this is indeed the case.
Now, as to whether or not a god literally known as "evil god" would require fresh blood?
An argument could be made either way; the quote above shows one argument. The counter-argument is that Hidan literally prays to his god before a fight, as mentioned by Cameloui. This indicates that Jashin, like most other gods, requires devout sacrifice -- it is, afterall, a sacrifice to Jashin that purportedly gives Hidan his immortality. One could argue that Jashin'd see the dried, chapped blood of a previous ritual similar to recycling a gift, and not recognize it until the ritual's re-drawn.
However, this entire argument is moot because none of us can know for sure what Jashin would think except Jashin himself.

So, if the power for the ritual does come from Jashin, as previously inferred, then we actually need to get the opinion of the man who's already canonically claimed himself to be Jashin. Unless anyone's arguing Nashley's having called Jashin himself, he needs to be brought into this discussion about whether a dried ritual would work on that account or not.

Onto the next point: Could the dried blood have coagulated, flaked over time? Could it no longer have any chakra or spiritual significance? I think the lattermost is the point here. Chakra is described in the wikia as, "the moulding of the physical energy (身体エネルギー, shintai enerugī) present in every cell of the body and the spiritual energy (精神エネルギー, seishin enerugī) gained from the mind."
Chakra is vital to every single jutsu or form of "magic" in the Naruto world. It is the source of our magical power -- and if Jashin himself doesn't fuel the power of the ritual, then chakra does; namely the chakra in the blood that composes the ritual.
It may be impossible for us to decide one way or another for sure about how perfectly the ritual would be preserved (it's stated as dust having gathered, as others have mentioned; yet also dried blood can last in an undisturbed area for centuries. Dust, however, deems the area as at least slightly concerned) or not, but one can definitely judge that the chakra in the blood isn't there any longer; not after months and months, and certainly not with the amount in one's blood alone. Based on this, I'd argue that -- if the ritual isn't from Jashin's actual power but from Bocchiere's chakra -- then the ritual needs to be redone.

So, let's come to a decision here, then: what fuels the Jashinist rituals: Jashin himself, or the chakra that fuels practically everything else in this setting?
If it's the former and if the Jashin of this world doesn't mind dried, old blood then I'd say that the attack has succeeded. If it's the former and the Jashin declines unfresh blood or it's the latter and the chakra in the blood has faded, then I'd say the attack has failed.
---
And if it is deemed that Bocc's ritual doesn't kill Kamui, there are a few more things to keep in mind:
Just because it didn't kill Kamui doesn't mean that Bocc needs to repost. Bocc, in a new post and after recuperating, would need to make a new ritual, yes. But that doesn't mean that his current actions would or could be voided; he's done the ritual, he's snapped his own neck -- the question is whether or not the damage reflected onto Kamui.

And I confess that I didn't have time to read the entire post, but if it doesn't kill Kamui, will Bocc immediately know? If Kamui isn't in the area, I don't see any way for him to even tell. Without knowledge,  Bocchiere might not even know that his ritual had failed.

I suppose this my input.

This is a very well-put post. I like.

I'd like to add that most "death" gods in theology, according to the people that worshipped them, were very finicky. If a god was used to human sacrifice, the sacrifice of any animal was insufficient, and if the god did accept animal sacrifice, only certain animals were okay. For example, to Pluto, the "accepted sacrifice" was most commonly "figs, dates, and a black pig." There is a myth I read in high school where the black pig was replaced by a black sheep because of a certain lack of swine, and Pluto got angry and went on a rampage. While you could make the argument that Jashin may or may not be a chthonic deity, if he is even an actual factor (and I would argue that he is as evidenced by Hidan's immortality), most "death gods" are chthonic.

If Jashin is a death god even slightly similar to nearly every death god known to man, then he would have been finicky about his sacrifices. That being said, the dried blood would be an issue, at least to the point where he wouldn't accept it and perhaps as far as incurring his wrath.

Sorry. I get my gigs on topics like this. I study a lot of this sort of stuff in college, and I must say, it is fun. :D
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Isaribi

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2014, 11:51:50 PM »

Holy Cow!!!! She didn't say what to do on Thursday if I am wearing boots? I must be able to regen in 2 posts and get a free lacerated biscep with skin graft for every knee cap I have busted up and a cup of orange sherbet to help me cope with the stress of it all.

{disclaimer: no friends of ShinobiIceSlayer were maligned... in this message. my apologies to anyone I didn't talk nice to while making fun of this whole topic}

not quoting it all because it was long.
But my god, I almost died laughing. Thank you Kay, that might be the first time I've ever applauded someone in RL over the computer. Bravo!
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Bocchiere

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2014, 04:11:43 AM »

Let me just say first of all, I am all for Kamui voiding himself out. I have no interest in rping with Kamui. He is 0-2 against me, and last time we fought HE was the Edo zombie with infinite chakra and still lost. Though of course according to him it was because he didn't really try. He's clearly never going to beat me and this time I have nothing to gain from beating him.

Since I forgot the entire spinal column would be repaired with my Kaguya, really there isn't any Edo regen at all. Unless the vertebrae just open up and then close so as to not damage the spinal cord?  Or I could just body shed.

Yes, he cannot Kamui or Izanagi out of this. He is outside my hideout talking to someone. I am a mile under the ground watching him with Animal Path summons that he did not take notice of yet. So there is no viable reason he would do either of those jutsu, though Kamui would not save him anyway. It allows you to teleport pieces of your body when they are touched by something to avoid the attack. My Curse Jutsu does not send anything at him that his body could phase through, his neck would just spontaneously breaks itself.

Kamui is literally just complaining about everything he could possibly complain about at this point. Yes I have all my abilities because I did not add anything after becoming a zombie. The rule is not you lose half of your abilities after being Edo Tensei'd it is if you want to implant something into a zombie they lose something in exchange. Not that this could be any less relevant to the discussion.

I am not going to even be reading Kage's posts anymore because he has demonstrated an inability to read mine to completion before posting. I literally said I am going to make a wiki page for the Avatar and remove all its Mazo like abilities because it was something I made multiple years ago and is silly. So what does Kage say? Kamui should be able to void it because it's basically the Mazo and has all those abilities I just said I've removed. Ok. So I'm not spending any more effort reading his posts.

The way I am doing the damage if being regenerated by Edo Tensei makes perfect sense. The chart goes up by the volume of damage done to one’s body. Note that all the examples for 4 posts death are such things as removing the head or piercing large holes in the body. As I already explained I am regenerating equal to or less than the amount of damage cutting off half an index finger would be, so why does one take 1 post and one take 4? That is literally how Edo zombies regenerate, ash just flies back in and reassembles the broken pieces, it's almost literally by weight, and I need to regenerate half a gram of nerve tissue.

There is nothing else to be argued. Here are Kamui's options that I see at this point.

#1 Void himself, and for the love of god never rp with me again.

#2 Die from my post. As I explained Kamui would not save him and using Izanagi would be meta-gaming.

#3 I repost, and Kamui still dies.

#4 My post does not work, I become forced to wait another 5 days for Kamui to post for no conceivable reason and then kill him with my next post.

I don't care which option he picks at this point because he's either going to leave or end up dead. I see no reason to carry this argument further when it clearly has derailed.
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Eric

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2014, 05:49:03 AM »

Welp. It came to this and I need a more unbiased opinion when it comes to Jashinism in general.
Why? Well...Bocchiere wants to one-shot off my character with this technique but without providing a ritual circle made of fresh blood; instead he is recycling an old circle that has coagulated and dried blood.

Bocchiere says blood is blood and it doesn't matter what the circle comprises of.
However from information I've seen in clips of the anime and manga chapters that I included below, Hidan uses fresh blood to draw his circles and even prays to Jashin before asking for a kill; even asking for forgiveness if he doesn't kill that day.

During the fight with Chiriku
During the fight with Asuma
Manga Chapter 323
Manga Chapter 323


For the sake of the train rails, this was the original post/inquiry for the topic.

This original discussion had been if the circle would work or not; already it has been established that, either the circle will work, end of story, or, circle does not work for reasons of decay, end of thread and beginning of new thread about how long it would take Bocc to regenerate.

So far, as Bocc puts it, he will swing either way on the issue, and both are fine with just ignoring each other. Issue pretty much resolved, the two can choose which to go with and bitterly leak in each other's cereal some more.  8)
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Camel

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2014, 08:26:59 AM »

Let me just say first of all, I am all for Kamui voiding himself out. I have no interest in rping with Kamui. He is 0-2 against me, and last time we fought HE was the Edo zombie with infinite chakra and still lost. Though of course according to him it was because he didn't really try. He's clearly never going to beat me and this time I have nothing to gain from beating him.

Since I forgot the entire spinal column would be repaired with my Kaguya, really there isn't any Edo regen at all. Unless the vertebrae just open up and then close so as to not damage the spinal cord?  Or I could just body shed.

Yes, he cannot Kamui or Izanagi out of this. He is outside my hideout talking to someone. I am a mile under the ground watching him with Animal Path summons that he did not take notice of yet. So there is no viable reason he would do either of those jutsu, though Kamui would not save him anyway. It allows you to teleport pieces of your body when they are touched by something to avoid the attack. My Curse Jutsu does not send anything at him that his body could phase through, his neck would just spontaneously breaks itself.

Kamui is literally just complaining about everything he could possibly complain about at this point. Yes I have all my abilities because I did not add anything after becoming a zombie. The rule is not you lose half of your abilities after being Edo Tensei'd it is if you want to implant something into a zombie they lose something in exchange. Not that this could be any less relevant to the discussion.

I am not going to even be reading Kage's posts anymore because he has demonstrated an inability to read mine to completion before posting. I literally said I am going to make a wiki page for the Avatar and remove all its Mazo like abilities because it was something I made multiple years ago and is silly. So what does Kage say? Kamui should be able to void it because it's basically the Mazo and has all those abilities I just said I've removed. Ok. So I'm not spending any more effort reading his posts.

The way I am doing the damage if being regenerated by Edo Tensei makes perfect sense. The chart goes up by the volume of damage done to one’s body. Note that all the examples for 4 posts death are such things as removing the head or piercing large holes in the body. As I already explained I am regenerating equal to or less than the amount of damage cutting off half an index finger would be, so why does one take 1 post and one take 4? That is literally how Edo zombies regenerate, ash just flies back in and reassembles the broken pieces, it's almost literally by weight, and I need to regenerate half a gram of nerve tissue.

There is nothing else to be argued. Here are Kamui's options that I see at this point.

#1 Void himself, and for the love of god never rp with me again.

#2 Die from my post. As I explained Kamui would not save him and using Izanagi would be meta-gaming.

#3 I repost, and Kamui still dies.

#4 My post does not work, I become forced to wait another 5 days for Kamui to post for no conceivable reason and then kill him with my next post.

I don't care which option he picks at this point because he's either going to leave or end up dead. I see no reason to carry this argument further when it clearly has derailed.

#1 If worse comes to worse, we'll have to take this road. ( I can't force you to RP with me and you can't do the same)

#2 Give me a good reason that categorizes, Izanagi as an action that counts as Metagaming. Also Kamui can and will save me, should I use it properly and within time. (I've been using the right eye's abilities after all.)

#3 Maybe. Perhaps. It's highly unlikely though. Maybe I could always work with what I got and just post in zone ten and maybe kill you instead.

#4 See #3

I'm going to lock the topic after I receive a reply or two, already went off-subject due to my excessive ranting.  :oops:

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