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Author Topic: Jashinism  (Read 12035 times)

Camel

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2014, 10:55:22 PM »

Quote from:  Edo Hazama
Da, da, da, dum!

I don't really see a point in this argument o.o

I mean, that's like arguing about if you can use old blood for Edo Tensei O.o Or whatever....

As Bocch stated, so long as the circle is intact, the person can step back into it and the link is made again.... I don't really see how it's arguable... Sincerely.

I could also make a Jashin seal three months in advance and so long as no one messes with it, I can drink your blood and step into it. o.o

This point of the argument is basically the mechanics of Jashinism; so that we can clarify everything and make sure some tactics can't be used to cheap-shot a character's death.

Edo Tensei? Well you really can't use just blood for it, whether it be old or not; you just need a substantial amount of fresh DNA.

That's the argument. How long can a circle remain intact? Whether it be in some underground base, forest or a personal dimension? Blood itself has a short lifespan and cannot stand the testaments of time; hence the flaking and dissipation.

Quote from: Bocchiere
Of course Hidan has to draw a circle each time, because, what else would he do? Pull an old circle out of his pocket and slap it down on the ground?

Maybe he didn't want to offend his god and needed something "fresh" to offer?
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2014, 11:34:54 PM »

Quote from:  Edo Hazama
Da, da, da, dum!

I don't really see a point in this argument o.o

I mean, that's like arguing about if you can use old blood for Edo Tensei O.o Or whatever....

As Bocch stated, so long as the circle is intact, the person can step back into it and the link is made again.... I don't really see how it's arguable... Sincerely.

I could also make a Jashin seal three months in advance and so long as no one messes with it, I can drink your blood and step into it. o.o

This point of the argument is basically the mechanics of Jashinism; so that we can clarify everything and make sure some tactics can't be used to cheap-shot a character's death.

Edo Tensei? Well you really can't use just blood for it, whether it be old or not; you just need a substantial amount of fresh DNA.

That's the argument. How long can a circle remain intact? Whether it be in some underground base, forest or a personal dimension? Blood itself has a short lifespan and cannot stand the testaments of time; hence the flaking and dissipation.

Quote from: Bocchiere
Of course Hidan has to draw a circle each time, because, what else would he do? Pull an old circle out of his pocket and slap it down on the ground?

Maybe he didn't want to offend his god and needed something "fresh" to offer?

Well it is underground. How does water, ect go away? Through heat and the sun, ect. It is underground. Heat rises, there is no sun. So the condition are near perfect for the blood to not dissipate as fast. Blood in the human world doesn't last long due to regulations on how pure it stays, ect. In Naruto and this argument we don't care if it collects bacteria, ect or not. If I cut my hand and put it on a brick and put that brick in my basement where's it is cool and dry I bet it'll still be there two years later. Mind you the circles made are thick. All Bocc needs is your blood and he can remake a new circle with his own.
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I'm going to agree with you on some things and disagree with you on some things.

Something that can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Shindō

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2014, 11:45:48 PM »

Blood circle should have received some damage from all the environmental factors around. I mean, where is this battle? How is its terrain? Are there like no cracks in the earth, wind, and basically, no action in general? I don't know much about what the hell is going on, but when I RP, everything matters. Not just jutsu and taunts. Fresh blood might be a little bit harder to erase as it is still somewhat concentrated, but old blood...is very sensitive to these variables.
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Love is like a box of chocolate. It is yummy!

Bocchiere

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2014, 11:52:33 PM »

Blood circle should have received some damage from all the environmental factors around. I mean, where is this battle? How is its terrain? Are there like no cracks in the earth, wind, and basically, no action in general? I don't know much about what the hell is going on, but when I RP, everything matters. Not just jutsu and taunts. Fresh blood might be a little bit harder to erase as it is still somewhat concentrated, but old blood...is very sensitive to these variables.

Reading previous posts to completion seems to be an issue you have Shindo. As I stated before the circle is underground, in a sealed chamber, that has remained such since the last time I killed Kamui inside it.
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Camel

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2014, 12:29:13 AM »

Quote from: Shadow
Well it is underground. How does water, ect go away? Through heat and the sun, ect. It is underground. Heat rises, there is no sun. So the condition are near perfect for the blood to not dissipate as fast. Blood in the human world doesn't last long due to regulations on how pure it stays, ect. In Naruto and this argument we don't care if it collects bacteria, ect or not. If I cut my hand and put it on a brick and put that brick in my basement where's it is cool and dry I bet it'll still be there two years later. Mind you the circles made are thick. All Bocc needs is your blood and he can remake a new circle with his own.

It wouldn't matter if you made it an inch-thick, the blood would coagulate eventually and stepping into the ritual circle itself would mean you would damage it by flaking off the coagulated blood.


This also doesn't count for the variables and factors into the whole RP.
You Akatsuki-guys actually fought the Yonbi in the underground base and it ended up with it being sealed in an Chibaku Tensei; which Bocc used Kamui on to seal it inside his personal dimension.

By this logic I can argue that the "secret underground room" shouldn't exist at this time due to the damage that occur from that earlier RP.

Quote from: Bocchiere
---Original Message from 真 Bocchiere(2014-05-01 23:25:47)---
And I control how powerful it is, it's not gonna effect anything beyond this room. :P
---Original Message from Uchiha Kamui(2014-05-01 23:20:37)---
I don't care if you're within the center of the earth; you made a highly concentrated ball of gravity that will attract all matter to it's center.

By "Matter" I mean everything that is around you, so basically you're destroying your own hideout. >>;


---Original Message from 真 Bocchiere(2014-05-01 23:17:47)---
I told you we're in a sub-basement, it's deep beneath the ground.
---Original Message from Uchiha Kamui(2014-05-01 23:16:19)---
You're gonna reveal your hideout though. xD

---Original Message from 真 Bocchiere(2014-05-01 23:13:50)---
A small one yes. I just want to collapse the things volcano.
---Original Message from Uchiha Kamui(2014-05-01 23:12:07)---
Did you used Chibaku Tensei at your hideout?

Unless you want to go with this logic right here.  :oops:
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Kage

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2014, 12:32:19 AM »

There are three major factors here that are effecting this.

1. The circle. It's apparently the same circle used from before, that was used in the exact same spot in the Mountain's Graveyard, which wasn't a thing or place at all until Meikai claimed it to be his personal hideout which he established.

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Mountains'_Graveyard

Quote
Though they have many small stations and outposts the "headquarters" of Bocchiere's Akatsuki is in a mountainous area located at the north-most region of the land between Takigakure and Otogakure, the region is referred to as Mountains' Graveyard. It is a dense rain forest, and gets its moniker from the bones of massive creatures that jut hundreds of feet into the air, above the canopy of trees.
The above is taken from Bocc's Akatsuki page. So one would have to assume that they moved into the place after Meikai died or disappeared. But from the posting where this room is introduced, it's apparently very dusty. I don't think a recent move-in would accumulate so much dust so quickly. Especially if they moved in very recently, which would be 10 days and 18 hours ago as of this post.

2. The avatar. It's a special statue that can move and talk. Nothing too out of the ordinary, but it's also apparently Jashin too, that can also be used as a fountain for fresh blood. There's more than one problem with this, with the first being that we already have the actual Jashin running around.

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Angra_Mainyu

The second problem being that apparently, this blood fountain can be used to kill the same person in the same way again. Or maybe even spawn blood that had already been ingested before. We don't know what this statue is, nor has it even been brought up as something Bocc has made until now. It just seems like something randomly pulled out of nowhere for the sole purpose of killing Kamui without any effort at all. If you want to make a special custom item or location, you can't just randomly say that it's always been there or always existed. You have to RP out making it and establishing it.

And then there's the fact that the statue already deems Bocc worthy of receiving fresh blood again, even though he has a well-known streak of never abiding by the strict followings of Jashinist prayers before battle, and then the whole thirty minute prayer after battle.

http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-313-page-4.html

3. The usage of the curse technique, while being undead. The curse technique requires that the user draws the circle in their blood, which Edo Tensei zombies have none of. Therefore, the first point is where this is most reliant on. The second thing which is required is the desired target's blood. Refer to the second point again for the blood fountain. And then there's the question of whether the user must be alive in order to use the technique.

Let's summarize and bring together each point now. If the Mountain's Graveyard was never Bocc's or his Akatsuki's hideout until about 10 days ago, then there's really no history of the statue ever being there or existing until about four days ago. This also voids the fact that the blood circle has ALWAYS been there.
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Camel

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2014, 12:34:17 AM »

There are three major factors here that are effecting this.

1. The circle. It's apparently the same circle used from before, that was used in the exact same spot in the Mountain's Graveyard, which wasn't a thing or place at all until Meikai claimed it to be his personal hideout which he established.

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Mountains'_Graveyard

Quote
Though they have many small stations and outposts the "headquarters" of Bocchiere's Akatsuki is in a mountainous area located at the north-most region of the land between Takigakure and Otogakure, the region is referred to as Mountains' Graveyard. It is a dense rain forest, and gets its moniker from the bones of massive creatures that jut hundreds of feet into the air, above the canopy of trees.
The above is taken from Bocc's Akatsuki page. So one would have to assume that they moved into the place after Meikai died or disappeared. But from the posting where this room is introduced, it's apparently very dusty. I don't think a recent move-in would accumulate so much dust so quickly. Especially if they moved in very recently, which would be 10 days and 18 hours ago as of this post.

2. The avatar. It's a special statue that can move and talk. Nothing too out of the ordinary, but it's also apparently Jashin too, that can also be used as a fountain for fresh blood. There's more than one problem with this, with the first being that we already have the actual Jashin running around.

http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Angra_Mainyu

The second problem being that apparently, this blood fountain can be used to kill the same person in the same way again. Or maybe even spawn blood that had already been ingested before. We don't know what this statue is, nor has it even been brought up as something Bocc has made until now. It just seems like something randomly pulled out of nowhere for the sole purpose of killing Kamui without any effort at all. If you want to make a special custom item or location, you can't just randomly say that it's always been there or always existed. You have to RP out making it and establishing it.

And then there's the fact that the statue already deems Bocc worthy of receiving fresh blood again, even though he has a well-known streak of never abiding by the strict followings of Jashinist prayers before battle, and then the whole thirty minute prayer after battle.

http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-313-page-4.html

3. The usage of the curse technique, while being undead. The curse technique requires that the user draws the circle in their blood, which Edo Tensei zombies have none of. Therefore, the first point is where this is most reliant on. The second thing which is required is the desired target's blood. Refer to the second point again for the blood fountain. And then there's the question of whether the user must be alive in order to use the technique.

Let's summarize and bring together each point now. If the Mountain's Graveyard was never Bocc's or his Akatsuki's hideout until about 10 days ago, then there's really no history of the statue ever being there or existing until about four days ago. This also voids the fact that the blood circle has ALWAYS been there.
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Bocchiere

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2014, 12:54:40 AM »

Kage is completely wrong? What a surprise.

#1 The page you sent me says it was made last year in March. I made my Akatsuki roughly, what, 4 years ago originally? I always claimed the Mountains' Graveyard, as soon as that was revealed to be their base. I even remember when Meikai made that page, by the date it seems like it was right after I got banned. I said in the rp when I beat Kamui the first time that I took him to my hideout in the Mountains' Graveyard, which if you remember was SLIGHTLY before Meikai decided to claim my hideout. I told Tsuyo to tell Mekai I claimed Mountains' Graveyard ages ago.

#2 I've had this statue for literally years as well, shockingly you just have no idea what you're talking about so you're assuming things.
http://jashinistbocchiere.webs.com/summoningcontracts.htm
I was using the statue as my own Mazo, I extracted the 6 tails from Kamui with it.

Literally the first line of Mainyu's bio "Angra Mainyu was initially believed to be the a god of darkness reliant on solely on complete an utter destruction. But in reality, he was no more than an ordinary villager." Not that I would accept him claiming to actually be God anymore than I accept YOU actually claiming to be god. My statue isn't a god either, it's an animate statue I made for cool stuff.

I still love the people telling me I don't rp a Jashinist correctly. It's a religion, there can be different denominations. I think considering I've killed LITERALLY thousands of people IC Jashin is pretty cool with me. There is also the part that the immortality is the same thing Oro did to himself essentially, "Hidan's immortality is due to the "successful experiment of the Jashin religion's secret technique" and has absolutely nothing to do with religious practices I do or do not follow.

#3 "He then draws Jashin's symbol on the ground in blood and stands in the centre"

Blood, not his blood, just blood. His blood is the most easily obtainable of course, so why would he attempt to use anyone else's? There is no reason to assume an Edo zombie can't use the jutsu either.

Now that I've proven Kage and Kamui completely wrong, as usual, can Kamui go post getting his neck broken? Worst case scenario I got get another akatsuki member and get some blood from them to make a circle with and still kill Kamui.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 12:57:38 AM by bocchiere »
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Kage

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2014, 02:08:30 AM »

Kage is completely wrong? What a surprise.

#1 The page you sent me says it was made last year in March. I made my Akatsuki roughly, what, 4 years ago originally? I always claimed the Mountains' Graveyard, as soon as that was revealed to be their base. I even remember when Meikai made that page, by the date it seems like it was right after I got banned. I said in the rp when I beat Kamui the first time that I took him to my hideout in the Mountains' Graveyard, which if you remember was SLIGHTLY before Meikai decided to claim my hideout. I told Tsuyo to tell Mekai I claimed Mountains' Graveyard ages ago.

#2 I've had this statue for literally years as well, shockingly you just have no idea what you're talking about so you're assuming things.
http://jashinistbocchiere.webs.com/summoningcontracts.htm
I was using the statue as my own Mazo, I extracted the 6 tails from Kamui with it.

Literally the first line of Mainyu's bio "Angra Mainyu was initially believed to be the a god of darkness reliant on solely on complete an utter destruction. But in reality, he was no more than an ordinary villager." Not that I would accept him claiming to actually be God anymore than I accept YOU actually claiming to be god. My statue isn't a god either, it's an animate statue I made for cool stuff.

I still love the people telling me I don't rp a Jashinist correctly. It's a religion, there can be different denominations. I think considering I've killed LITERALLY thousands of people IC Jashin is pretty cool with me. There is also the part that the immortality is the same thing Oro did to himself essentially, "Hidan's immortality is due to the "successful experiment of the Jashin religion's secret technique" and has absolutely nothing to do with religious practices I do or do not follow.

#3 "He then draws Jashin's symbol on the ground in blood and stands in the centre"

Blood, not his blood, just blood. His blood is the most easily obtainable of course, so why would he attempt to use anyone else's? There is no reason to assume an Edo zombie can't use the jutsu either.

Now that I've proven Kage and Kamui completely wrong, as usual, can Kamui go post getting his neck broken? Worst case scenario I got get another akatsuki member and get some blood from them to make a circle with and still kill Kamui.

So if you're merely leading a denomination (Cult of Jashin), and not the parent/true Jashinism (Jashin/Jashinkyō) which is now up for grabs according to this post. If so, then anyone can claim to be a "true" Jashinist or even a denomination of it and use the curse technique too, no? Maybe even add themselves to the Jashinistic Immortality list too since as said in the third databook "Through experiments with Jashin's secret technique, Hidan was granted immortality.". http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Hidan#cite_ref-4

Quote
Jashin no Keshin (Incarnation of Jashin) :  The Jashin no Keshin is a massive statue made of a flawless ebony colored stone. It rests in the depths of the old Akatsuki, now Mokushiroku, hideout, where it stands lifeless, chained to the walls of the room it sits with enormous chains. It is in this great stone beast the Bocchiere can seal any captured bijuu with the Bloody Sealing Technique, which seals the victim's blood in the statue as well. The statue can then be animated, the more bijuu chakra it has the more powerful it is. It is a powerful ally to have and can shrug off even the most powerful attacks and dole out immense destruction once fully powered. Some of it's more unique abilities are it's ability to channel the powers of the bijuu it has sealed within it (ie if one were to seal the Yonbi within it the statue could manipulate lava) as well as the ability to remove the souls of living things. (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Summoning:_Demonic_Statue_of_the_Outer_Path) To do so the crystal in the center of it's chest glows crimson and spectral tentacles snake out of it at great speed, they can be seen by the naked eye but could not be stopped by an earthly defenses such as armor or an earthen wall. Only chakra based defenses can resist this attack and only very powerful ones at that. Should one attempt to absorb the soul removing tentacles with anything short of the Preta Path's powerful barrier they would find their insides heavily damaged by burns, which could even be fatal.
So basically it's a duplicate of the Gedo Mazo, but re-branded and with a paint job? Doesn't this fall under the same category as saying "I have Hamesada. It's not Samehada, but it can do everything that the original can do and more."
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Bocchiere

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2014, 04:34:04 AM »

#1 No, you can't change my claims because SL doesn't mesh perfectly with the manga.

#2 Yes the statue is stupid, I made it years ago. I'm going to make a wiki page for it and remove the Mazo like abilities, that was just supposed to prove I have indeed had it and its abilities were not pulled out of thin air. It's basically just going to be my animate blood bank.
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Camel

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2014, 06:36:00 AM »

Quote
Jujutsu: Shiji Hyōketsu (Curse Technique: Death Controlling Possessed Blood) This technique is the forefront of Bocchiere's Jashinist faith, after ingesting the blood of his opponent he will spill his own blood and form the symbol of Jashin on the ground, once he stands within the circle his body will turn pitch black and white markings that look like a skeleton and symbolize absolute death appear on his skin. As long as Bocchiere stands on the ground blessed by Jashin's seal any damage done to Bocchiere will be also inflicted on the person whose blood he ingested. The only way to break the link is to make Bocchiere leave the blessed mark and as soon as he returns to the mark the effect will resume. Breaking/ destroying or otherwise disrupting the seal does not effect the technique, once Bocchiere spills his blood and makes the mark that ground is blessed ground and any attempt to destroy the seal will have no effect on the technique, although it will anger Bocchiere.

I actually got this off your web page and it basically almost seals the deal on this whole subject at hand.



Quote from: Zone Ten
so Bocch's -
[(fightingzone-10) [05/08 08:22pm] <暁> 真 Bocchiere - Edo Tensei body would quickly reconnect the spinal cord, and repair the shattered vertebrae. However his Curse Blood Technique reflects only damage, not repairs, so Kamui would not be so lucky. By all rights, since the Otokage had no way to -
(fightingzone-10) [05/08 08:25pm] <暁> 真 Bocchiere - know this attack was coming, he should find himself dropping to the ground, dead, no differently than if Bocch had walked up to him and snapped his neck with his own hands. Maybe I'll incinerate him and let Hazama bury him next to Trev, is -
(fightingzone-10) [05/08 08:26pm] <暁> 真 Bocchiere -what Bocch thinks after moving himself into a seated position and then standing back up.

I will also like to point that Bocchiere even disregards the Edo Tensei regeneration rate. (Which is about four turns for the damage he wants to inflict on me using the Cursed Blood Technique)
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Bocchiere

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2014, 07:20:30 AM »

I'm officially calling for a lock, since Kamui has yet to make a single salient point.

Yes Kamui that does describe how I use the jutsu. What else would I say? "Bocchiere quickly leaves the battle to hunt down a deer to slaughter and make the circle with."? It does not say that is a requirement for the jutsu to be used, it just describes how I use it in a fight. I'll change it to the canon description from the manga wiki if you like, I just wanted to spice mine up a bit. Otherwise you're literally just arguing what I am saying about how my jutsu works is not what I am saying.

Correct me if I am wrong but literally no one has agreed with Kamui at this point and said "Yes you definitely cannot make a circle of old blood and do this." right? I mean most of the people haven't even bothered to read the previous posts before responding. Kage brought things up that are either not provable (zombies can't do the jutsu) or flat-out wrong (needs to be your own blood).

I have several cracked vertebrae (which my Kaguya could just repair) and a severed bundle of nerves about half an inch thick. I don't know why that'd take 4 posts, or why you are arguing something that has no bearing to this discussion, but 4 posts says when something would kill you. Last I checked I'm a Jashinist and that wouldn't kill me. That's 1 turn, minor damage, at best. I am quite literally regenerating less damage than if I had cut off the tip of my finger. You loophole to keep your KG and I can loophole the damage chart.

I'm still waiting on any relevant information appearing.
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Darkshinobi

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2014, 07:35:24 AM »

I'd like to respond to this, but I can't think very well tonight. If possible, would it be okay to keep it open until tomorrow afternoon?

*This is absolutely the most helpful response on the forums, I know.*
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Eric

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2014, 02:20:51 PM »

Quote
...Bocch does use Kamui though, not to enter the situation outside but to enter a dusty room deep in the hideout. -
(5d6h) <Kusa > Academy Student Bocchi - The room is pitch black but Bocch snaps his fingers and several sconces of flames ignite in the four corners of the room and around an alabaster platform with the symbol of Jashin carved into its face. Bocch would walk forward and ascend the -
(5d6h) <Kusa > Academy Student Bocchi - several steps that lead onto the platform. He would walk across its surface until he stood in the middle of his God's symbol...

...The Jashinist opens his mouth and catches the drop on his tongue, swallowing it, and when he does his skin immediately begins to change. His -
(1d15h) <暁> 真 Bocchiere - entire body turns pitch black and white markings symbolizing a skeleton would appear over the blackness. The dais where he stands is actually where Kamui once died, and the marking of Jashin on it is stained with the Otokage's, among others, -
(1d15h) <暁> 真 Bocchiere - blood, thus the ritual is complete...

Quote
...In some instances, small, self-inflicted harms will produce blood so that the summoned can use summoning techniques,[62] for an example, although greater harms won't make the summoner bleed...


Unless I missed something, if Bocc already cursed Kamui before, then it was entirely unecessary for him to acquire more of Kamui's blood, unless becoming an Edo Tensei zombie nullified that, which is unlikely since Edos can still have blood drawn from them, though only if the injury is self inflicted apparently.

Of course, that's not the main issue being debated here. What is the main issue is whether the mark would still be viable after all of this time. The room is not completely free of the elements, otherwise, it would not be dusty. So, presuming that it has been months IC since the marking of the seal, it is not far-fetched to say that the blood may have degenerated.

However, the 1st and 2nd Hokage were brought back via Edo Tensei; I presume that some of the bloodstains in their armor were used, if i recall correctly. Those two farts died decades before Orochimaru brought them back.

Of course, it can be argued that it was merely dead cells that were used, not blood per say, in which case, I will have to keep looking for the chapter/episode that went into details about how Oro brought those two back.

It is surprisingly difficult believe it or not, since it isn't an episode highlight, nor does the wiki explanation of the situation provide any other citation other than Kabuto's. I watched that episode and, frankly, all it did was tell me that a fixed portion of flesh containing DNA works, which does not necessarily mean blood.

Long story short, the blood may have degenerated after all of this time, simply because the room is dusty. Dust can be a rather destructive thing over a long period of time, so regardless of how long the hideout has been in use by Bocc, dust accumulation might would damage the validity of the marking. Of course, it would not be much of a chore to restore it with some fresh, undusty blood.

That's my two cents on it.
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Bocchiere

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Re: Jashinism
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2014, 05:09:51 PM »

That's true, though if I have to repost I think editing the dust out would be pretty easy xD I guess it does last a while though.

"Jiraiya, though his body lies at the bottom of the ocean where the water pressure is too great to reach. However, he claimed that the bloodstains on the Six Paths of Pain's weapons may provide enough DNA."

I don't think they keep their literal throw-away weapons hermetically sealed, and the war arc does take place quite a long time after Jiraiya is killed. So Kabuto believes there will still be bloodstains on them after all this time.
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