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Author Topic: Battle in Kiri  (Read 13401 times)

Isaribi

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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2014, 05:46:04 AM »

I never saw in the show nor manga where he explicitly healed anything.

Regardless, everything you are talking about is lacerations, bruising, decapitations, and other cutting forces. We are talking about something that is concussive over a wide area. Even if Hazama could heal as a Jashin (which, btw, is a total joke in terms of RP fairness), there would be a time-frame of such; he isn't entitled to completely just ignore it as if it didn't even pain him just because he is wearing bone armor. The armor would have made it worse, in fact.

Yes, but in the absence of information, the burden of proof falls onto those who fill in the blanks. There aren't any convincing arguments that say you are able; there is no precedent. Dan's technique refers to something spiritual; Orochimaru's technique is physical and spiritual. Edo Tensei doesn't exactly give you a real psyche, nor body.

In standard RP and with fairness to all, you cannot just fill in the blanks so that they are most suitable and beneficial to you. Weakness, nerfs, etc are things which are supposed to be implemented. In the absence of information, you cannot assume the highest and most beneficial denominator; you must assume the lowest one.

Regardless of it all, we are waiting on Takara to look at it. Let's just be patient.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 05:56:28 AM by Isaribi »
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Bocchiere

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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2014, 06:07:59 AM »

I'm going to let Haz argue about his stuff from now on.

As for Edo I don't know why you think I'm being unfair. There are no real restrictions about what jutsu an Edo zombie can do, canonically. We've banned solid bunshins.

I don't know why we're against people do something to stop having infinite chakra and immortality. >_> If I didn't want my own body back I'd probably take someone over too.
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Isaribi

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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2014, 06:18:38 AM »

I'm going to let Haz argue about his stuff from now on.

As for Edo I don't know why you think I'm being unfair. There are no real restrictions about what jutsu an Edo zombie can do, canonically. We've banned solid bunshins.

I don't know why we're against people do something to stop having infinite chakra and immortality. >_> If I didn't want my own body back I'd probably take someone over too.

There hasn't been specifically stated, canonically, that there aren't restricted techniques. To go through and specifically say, "You can't do this" as an Edo in the manga is just gibberish; of course it hasn't happened, to the story, it isn't necessary information. That doesn't mean that there aren't things that cannot be done; since we don't know what those things are or could be, it is our job to decide, in all fairness, which is best and which is not.

In times like this, it becomes important to sort this stuff out. The manga doesn't help us; we have to figure it out. If an Edo could just take over someone's body, then that nullifies the actual way of coming back (i.e. what Madara did to return to his real fleshy self as opposed to his dusty old Edo body) as being something that makes the Edo Tensei more difficult of a thing to "recover from" so to speak.

And no, there are certainly drawbacks to being an Edo Tensei. For one, anyone skilled even slightly in Fuinjutsu can send you packing relatively easily, albeit perhaps temporarily.

Supposed to be pros and cons to everything; that is why most of SL RP is/is becoming broken. All the pros are taken by those who have things, and they like to ignore the cons, or refuse to make up cons in the absence of any real ones.
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UettoSenju

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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2014, 06:24:47 AM »

I was referring to how they keep pointing out the Gedo has tailed beast stored within it during this fight scene. The one being used in Kiri does not. I am aware that it should in theory be able to function without the tailed beast. However, I do believe that giving it one makes it stronger and in that fight scene it has quit a few I think. I am saying I don't think the one in SL's Kiri would be as strong as the one shown in this scene.

As for the soul issue well I am speaking on my personal thoughts. I just don't think a dead soul could attach to a living body unless that soul was brought back to live via a reincarnation like jutsu.   
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Bocchiere

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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2014, 06:28:56 AM »

Well the jutsu being used is something only Oro has canonically. No one else really has the ability to steal bodies.

Anyone anywhere is beaten by fuinjutsu, not just Edo zombies. "I seal you, your chakra is turned off now."

I don't know what point you see that Kirk, I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that that fight is after Obito reseals the 6 bijuu into his 6 Paths of Pain. Meaning the Mazo only has Shukaku in it during that fight.

What is a dead soul? Are there different kinds of souls now?
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Isaribi

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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2014, 06:39:59 AM »

Well the jutsu being used is something only Oro has canonically. No one else really has the ability to steal bodies.

Anyone anywhere is beaten by fuinjutsu, not just Edo zombies. "I seal you, your chakra is turned off now."

I don't know what point you see that Kirk, I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that that fight is after Obito reseals the 6 bijuu into his 6 Paths of Pain. Meaning the Mazo only has Shukaku in it during that fight.

What is a dead soul? Are there different kinds of souls now?

Canonically, there aren't fuinjutsu which just "turn off chakra" like you have said. There are some that make it more difficult to use, painful to use, absorb it, etc. But none that just turn it off.

However, the Edo is a technique; therefore, it is subject to fuinjutsu which seal techniques and do the "chakra shut off" which you are referring to. That is the con I am pointing at.
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UettoSenju

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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2014, 07:01:36 AM »

Well the jutsu being used is something only Oro has canonically. No one else really has the ability to steal bodies.

Anyone anywhere is beaten by fuinjutsu, not just Edo zombies. "I seal you, your chakra is turned off now."

I don't know what point you see that Kirk, I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that that fight is after Obito reseals the 6 bijuu into his 6 Paths of Pain. Meaning the Mazo only has Shukaku in it during that fight.

What is a dead soul? Are there different kinds of souls now?

I meant the soul of a dead vessel. A soul bound to the realm of the dead not that of the living. I think if this could be done then perhaps Madara would have taken advantage of it. Did he not cast his soul out of his zombie body at one point? Dan did it but it was noted that he only had limited time before he would be sent back to the afterlife thus it leaves me to think that if one was to separate their soul from the zombie vessel and not return to it then they would go back to the after life. The only reason Madara got to stay was because he set himself free but even then he had to stay in his zombie vessel.

Madara could have just taken over Obito's body and got Zetsu to brign him the other rinnegan and had both of them plus still have Senju DNA perks.

As for the Gedo. I'm not sure but I thought it was before Naruto started to fight with Obito and his Six Paths. Regardless even if it did have one it would still be a lot of power given from that one. And it could have easily keep a small portion of the others within it. I just think this Gedo that was summoned with no tailed beast sealed within or having had them sealed within would be as powerful.
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Kage

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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2014, 09:41:20 AM »

This whole chapter deals with the statue's actions against Darui's division.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-537.html

And then a few chapters later, Obito finally has his Edo Tensei'd Jinchuuriki.
http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-544-page-15.html

So it's apparent to assume that seven out of nine Tailed Beasts were sealed in the Mazo during it's rampage in chapter 537, and then six of them were extracted to make Obito's Paths of Pain.

Now the statue without any Tailed Beasts sealed within it can't do too much, except for that technique with the soul-removing dragon. But even then, that technique is also claimed by Kyu.
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Summoning%3A_Demonic_Statue_of_the_Outer_Path
http://narutoprofile.wikia.com/wiki/The_Claimed#Techniques

Unless everyone in Kiri seems to be alright with the statue being used.
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Bocchiere

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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2014, 10:01:06 AM »

Well the jutsu being used is something only Oro has canonically. No one else really has the ability to steal bodies.

Anyone anywhere is beaten by fuinjutsu, not just Edo zombies. "I seal you, your chakra is turned off now."

I don't know what point you see that Kirk, I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that that fight is after Obito reseals the 6 bijuu into his 6 Paths of Pain. Meaning the Mazo only has Shukaku in it during that fight.

What is a dead soul? Are there different kinds of souls now?

I meant the soul of a dead vessel. A soul bound to the realm of the dead not that of the living. I think if this could be done then perhaps Madara would have taken advantage of it. Did he not cast his soul out of his zombie body at one point? Dan did it but it was noted that he only had limited time before he would be sent back to the afterlife thus it leaves me to think that if one was to separate their soul from the zombie vessel and not return to it then they would go back to the after life. The only reason Madara got to stay was because he set himself free but even then he had to stay in his zombie vessel.

Madara could have just taken over Obito's body and got Zetsu to brign him the other rinnegan and had both of them plus still have Senju DNA perks.

As for the Gedo. I'm not sure but I thought it was before Naruto started to fight with Obito and his Six Paths. Regardless even if it did have one it would still be a lot of power given from that one. And it could have easily keep a small portion of the others within it. I just think this Gedo that was summoned with no tailed beast sealed within or having had them sealed within would be as powerful.

Madara's soul was being removed by the Edo Tensei Release, just like Dan. Dan didn't use the Spirit Transformation until the Edo Tensei had been released. That's why he only had a limited time before his soul was drawn away. We could say Haz acts like a Lich now, and if someone destroys the Edo body his soul is bound too then he'd die in his human body.

Like I said so far only Oro has been able to body snatch people. I feel like that isn't going to change.

So I was mistaken about the timeline. I am indeed hearing a lot of baseless insistence that the Mazo needs the tailed beasts chakra to do things. So thank you for continuing the trend Kage. Now does anyone want to actually show me a page where someone explains that the Mazo is using the bijuu's chakra?

I'm reading the entire wiki page of the Mazo, zeroing in on the ability section. It says, "It is also capable of creating shock waves capable of devastating an entire battlefield, and from the protrusions on its back, launching energy blasts." So those are its attacks. I'm not seeing anything anywhere saying, "The Gedo Mazo is stronger the more tailed beasts are sealed inside it, it draws on their chakra." or anything.

Anything? Anywhere? Or are we really unwilling to believe that a community that vastly doesn't get how Sage Mode works might maybe have a common misconception about something else?
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Ѕhadow

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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2014, 01:15:51 PM »

Well the jutsu being used is something only Oro has canonically. No one else really has the ability to steal bodies.

Anyone anywhere is beaten by fuinjutsu, not just Edo zombies. "I seal you, your chakra is turned off now."

I don't know what point you see that Kirk, I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that that fight is after Obito reseals the 6 bijuu into his 6 Paths of Pain. Meaning the Mazo only has Shukaku in it during that fight.

What is a dead soul? Are there different kinds of souls now?

Canonically, there aren't fuinjutsu which just "turn off chakra" like you have said. There are some that make it more difficult to use, painful to use, absorb it, etc. But none that just turn it off.

However, the Edo is a technique; therefore, it is subject to fuinjutsu which seal techniques and do the "chakra shut off" which you are referring to. That is the con I am pointing at.


I'd like to point this out; http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sealing_Technique:_Lion_Closing_Roar
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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2014, 04:24:24 PM »

I am inclined to agree with Bocc about the Mazo. Nowhere in the manga, the show, or on the wiki pages does it dictate that it is only at a certain level of power because of the bijuu sealed within it.

I will however offer a different argument. In the manga, when it is first summoned it is only allowed one technique. When Nagato summons it it pierces into his back, and absorbs his chakra into it's being to cast out the evil dragon of soul stealing doom.... At least that is how it both looks, and reads. So would it be possible to then claim that perhaps Hazama would have to feed his chakra into the statue to pull such a technique? Or more so, it basically completely incapacitated Nagato the one time he summoned the statue himself... Would it not do the same to Haz? I honestly don't completely understand the nuances of the use of the Gedo Mazo. I mean there have to be restrictions on it's use, yes? We can't have everyone and their mother claiming they can use the statue can we? Should it be like the Jinchuriki of SL? One person, or two people at a time claim the power of the statue? I mean with it played like this, in this way it seems that this technique should have some restrictions placed on it, much like the way they have restricted the Edo Tensei, and the Jinchuriki, and so on.

Just food for thought on that matter.

I also have to agree with the assessment of the bone armor issue...

Hazama may be protected, but imagine it this way. Put a pot over your head... smack the pot with a spoon. What happens? Instantly you're person becomes a center for the vibrations to ground themselves and ease out. This causes excessive disorientation of the person. Now encase one's own body in it, and strike it with a bullet of decent caliber size... say a 7.62 round? I fire these often in training, and teaching people riffle fire. I've seen a caliber round like this mow through solid steal, and punch through the other side from a distance of 40 yards. At 70 yards it punched through the first layer, and struck the back of the steel form, compacting itself within the item, and casing it to tip over... I have never tried a point blank range assault however, I assume the devastation is excessive. Even a .45 caliber round at 30 yards could cause major damage by doing the same thin a 7.62 round does at 70 yards. So if Hazama took this strike, at point blank range the bone armor would literally shatter at the front, and his body would then excise a massive hole right through his internal organs, and blow through the other side. We'd be playing with a guy who literally was blown to bits. Say the bone armor stands though? God forbid we let the poor man die this early in the game. I'm having too much fun with this.

The concussive force alone would flatten the man inside his own armor. Being blown back at such high speeds would involuntarily cause his internal organs to hemorrhage, and a painful internal bleeding to start. Back to the spoon and pot thing. Say are placed in a suspended pot and someone smacks it with a massive spoon. You're entire body would vibrate at to such an extent from a hit it would cause an instant massive headache, extreme disorientation and vomiting... Nausea to extreme volumes. I mean there is a lot of issues with this post, and how he deals with it. That is all i'm saying. And nowhere do we read that a Jashinist magically and instantly heals, and doesn't feel the effects of the attacks.

I mean I can understand that he continues to move regardless of assault on him, but does that mean he's basically a giant tank and takes no damage ever? I think not! We never did see this type of attack on Hidan in the anime... so we cannot claim that he never feels the effects. Can one say if he was caught in a genjutsu that his person would still continue to fight while his mind was trapped in another person's technique?

These are things that I also believe need to be resolved...
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Eric

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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2014, 04:36:15 PM »

http://www.crunchyroll.com/naruto-shippuden/episode-276-attack-of-the-gedo-statue-600719

During the third section of the video (which may or may not have already been posted) the blasts of chakra sound and seem to function like Raiton, despite what the wiki says. Whether this is a difference in how it is displayed in the anime and manga or not is beyond me, but I"ll note that anyways.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Demonic_Statue_of_the_Outer_Path

As stated on the wiki under abilities, the statue already contains chakra and life force of its own, so it does not necessarily have to have the tailed beasts, canonically speaking, in order to use all the abilities depicted, though this is a limitation that can be placed for SL purposes.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Cloth_Binding_Technique

I also cite this as a fuinjutsu that stops the usage of chakra entirely by the victim, as despite the intent being to immobilize the opponent, not all of those sealed by this technique needed to move in order to use their chakra; so while it doesn't state it explicitly, this cloth likely has the power to also bind the usage of chakra, even from a source of unlimited chakra. The subsequent tag put on it prevents the victim from being summoned from the cloth.

Now then, regarding the whole Edo Tensei and Living Corpse thing going on here (Summary in bold text below)

Dan constantly worried that his ability would be used on the battlefield; as a result, we can assume that, if Kabuto seriously intended on using him, then his technique would not have cancelled out Edo Tensei. However, we are only shown his usage of it once while he is an Edo, and that was on his way out the door, so we do not know for sure. We do know that his soul would have still been bound to the corpse vessel, just as it would have still been bound to his living body in real life, so his technique does not entirely sever the connection between himself and the corpse.

The Living Corpse Reincarnation Technique requires the user to abandon the body of the current host, in the case of Edo, a true corpse, in order to transfer bodies. There is evidence to suggest that the user cannot use this technique canonically while under the influence of Edo Tensei, as that vessel cannot be used to host the ten-tails, and so the user may not be able to utilize their "true form" as depicted in the series by Oro in order to take another body.

The custom or canon "true form" is largely the user's soul attached to a makeshift body of sorts created for the purpose of the technique, and was considered a body modification. So the "true form" may very well require only the user's soul in order to perform.

Also, the user would need to break the bind between their soul and the technique formula, which would result in the end of Edo Tensei as we know it. Whether there is time given to find a new body or not is up for debate, but if there is time, it would not be a significant amount of time. The user could not just wander around in his/her true form for the sake of host hunting in this circumstance.

All of this put together means that, canonically, if you break the contract with the summoner, then you might would be free to also move your soul around as you please, or if the summoner allows such while the control is still present. SL-wise, not being able to perform this technique at all would be a limitation on the technique itself that would not be entirely unjustified considering the what the series has given us on the technique.

Crucial to the body switch, therefore, is the disconnection of the user's soul from the binding that keeps them in the Edo corpse, which would break Edo Tensei and force the user to very quickly find a new body or risk being returned to the afterlife.





I am inclined to agree with Bocc about the Mazo. Nowhere in the manga, the show, or on the wiki pages does it dictate that it is only at a certain level of power because of the bijuu sealed within it.

I will however offer a different argument. In the manga, when it is first summoned it is only allowed one technique. When Nagato summons it it pierces into his back, and absorbs his chakra into it's being to cast out the evil dragon of soul stealing doom.... At least that is how it both looks, and reads. So would it be possible to then claim that perhaps Hazama would have to feed his chakra into the statue to pull such a technique? Or more so, it basically completely incapacitated Nagato the one time he summoned the statue himself... Would it not do the same to Haz? I honestly don't completely understand the nuances of the use of the Gedo Mazo. I mean there have to be restrictions on it's use, yes? We can't have everyone and their mother claiming they can use the statue can we? Should it be like the Jinchuriki of SL? One person, or two people at a time claim the power of the statue? I mean with it played like this, in this way it seems that this technique should have some restrictions placed on it, much like the way they have restricted the Edo Tensei, and the Jinchuriki, and so on.

Just food for thought on that matter.

I also have to agree with the assessment of the bone armor issue...

Hazama may be protected, but imagine it this way. Put a pot over your head... smack the pot with a spoon. What happens? Instantly you're person becomes a center for the vibrations to ground themselves and ease out. This causes excessive disorientation of the person. Now encase one's own body in it, and strike it with a bullet of decent caliber size... say a 7.62 round? I fire these often in training, and teaching people riffle fire. I've seen a caliber round like this mow through solid steal, and punch through the other side from a distance of 40 yards. At 70 yards it punched through the first layer, and struck the back of the steel form, compacting itself within the item, and casing it to tip over... I have never tried a point blank range assault however, I assume the devastation is excessive. Even a .45 caliber round at 30 yards could cause major damage by doing the same thin a 7.62 round does at 70 yards. So if Hazama took this strike, at point blank range the bone armor would literally shatter at the front, and his body would then excise a massive hole right through his internal organs, and blow through the other side. We'd be playing with a guy who literally was blown to bits. Say the bone armor stands though? God forbid we let the poor man die this early in the game. I'm having too much fun with this.

The concussive force alone would flatten the man inside his own armor. Being blown back at such high speeds would involuntarily cause his internal organs to hemorrhage, and a painful internal bleeding to start. Back to the spoon and pot thing. Say are placed in a suspended pot and someone smacks it with a massive spoon. You're entire body would vibrate at to such an extent from a hit it would cause an instant massive headache, extreme disorientation and vomiting... Nausea to extreme volumes. I mean there is a lot of issues with this post, and how he deals with it. That is all i'm saying. And nowhere do we read that a Jashinist magically and instantly heals, and doesn't feel the effects of the attacks.

I mean I can understand that he continues to move regardless of assault on him, but does that mean he's basically a giant tank and takes no damage ever? I think not! We never did see this type of attack on Hidan in the anime... so we cannot claim that he never feels the effects. Can one say if he was caught in a genjutsu that his person would still continue to fight while his mind was trapped in another person's technique?

These are things that I also believe need to be resolved...


Out of convenience I will actually quote this, as it was posted while I was constructing my post:

To put it in a comparison, powerful sound waves also have severe concussive consequences in the series:

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Resonating_Echo_Drill

A jashinist has been shown to be able to survive devastating attacks to their person; they have healed relatively quickly as well from punctures and cuts, etc.

However, being decapitated instantly took Hidan out of the fight; thus, though he could live on, he was severely hindered. If all of Hazama' inner organs were decimated in a single attack, then while he might be able to move in a turn or two (that's stretching it yet still imho) he would be completely incapable of immediate movement. Concussive damage would still affect him significantly with subsequent actions, such as the summoning of the Mazo, and he would likely have to wait for himself to recover before utilizing something like that.

After all, the body's chakra network can be considered an internal body network, and if that were destroyed, then the user would be a goner under all other circumstances. In this one, at the least, he would not be able to utilize his chakra for a ninjutsu like the summoning technique (or any for that matter). I personally think complete loss of chakra flow from destruction of the network itself would very quickly kill even a jashinist, but the point of the matter is, Hazama, if suffering from that kind of damage, would not be able to even defend himself let alone summon anything right off the bat.
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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2014, 05:17:36 PM »

Must applaud Eric in his very eloquent explanation.
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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2014, 07:02:01 PM »

*bows to Eric* Well said.

Also, as a note for those that were unclear about the use of the Gedo Mazo statue, it has been claimed and sealed since Kyu first got it. He has been the sole person able to do anything with it in SL RP thus far, I believe, and he did give Hazama consent to use it. Therefore much like Hiraishin and Edo Tensei, it is currently limited to their two users.
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Bocchiere

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Re: Battle in Kiri
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2014, 08:02:21 PM »

One thing about Hazama. He grew the bone armor, he didn't put it on, so it is attached to him, skin tight. Wouldn't that mean he does not rattle around it in like people are explaining? Or am I misunderstanding what they are claiming is happening?
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