Shinobi Legends Forum - Shinobi Legends Game Site

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Ever wondered if your ideas have been talked about in the forum already? Well, try out the "search" option, where all your questions can be answered.

Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: The Eighth Gate and Kamui  (Read 4624 times)

Becquerel

  • Site Staff (Game Master)
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +36/-15
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 763
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2016, 02:02:40 AM »

is everyone forgetting that we're trying to apply real world physics and rules to an anime universe?

If you really wanted to be anal about things, you could factor in things like nervous system speeds. So we know that the brain registers sight at about 13 milliseconds so let's say that your brain is the brainiest brain out there so you can react at the bare minimum times. So after your brain registers something it sees, it sends a nervous impulse at ~270 mph (~430 km/h) to process that information. Let's say that your brain processes that information instantly, so now it needs to send a impulse to your eyes to activate kamui at ~270mph again.

So provided that Night Guy is moving faster than that, you might get hit before you even realize you've been hit (I've seen it happen with gunshots). If that's true, then there should be no way that you should be able to react to Night Guy unless you were kamuing prior to the attack's activation...

But then again, if someone really wants to be this anal about playing this game, I will never RP with such a person and it would probably result in me just leaving because that just ain't fun. And I've been at points where I'm struggling at times to squeeze fun out of this place because people want to just dissect every little particle :/
Logged
100 push ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats, and 10km running every single day.

Bocchiere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +46/-59
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2224
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2016, 02:31:04 AM »

Sorry for trying to answer somebody's question.
Logged

Becquerel

  • Site Staff (Game Master)
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +36/-15
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 763
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2016, 02:35:09 AM »

Short answer - If you're already in Kamui intangibility mode, then you should be safe until your time-limit runs out.
If you're not in intangibility mode, then GG, everyone (most likely) dies. At least, that's what I believe. :)
Logged
100 push ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats, and 10km running every single day.

Bocchiere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +46/-59
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2224
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2016, 03:01:04 AM »

Short answer - If you're already in Kamui intangibility mode, then you should be safe until your time-limit runs out.
If you're not in intangibility mode, then GG, everyone (most likely) dies. At least, that's what I believe. :)

I just think of the things from a bijuu fight standpoint. The kick has a big wind up and I'm not under the impression it travels so fast you can't will your kamui active. That would mean it's too fast to Hiraishin out of the way too. Just doesn't seem to make sense.
Logged

Becquerel

  • Site Staff (Game Master)
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +36/-15
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 763
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2016, 03:22:07 AM »

What's wrong with it being too fast to Hiraishin out of the way either? Technically speaking, opening the eight gate gives you power that puts you 'far beyond that of the five kage'. Since the 4th developed Hiraishin and also happened to be a kage, that would mean the Eighth Gate would technically be able to move faster than Minato.

Eight Gate > 10 tailed jinchuriki > all 5 kage
Minato = Kage
Therefore, Eight Gate > Minato

Plus, since the user dies after activating the 8th gate (Guy didn't because of Jesus Jutsu) I feel like it should be a fair trade to basically be the most powerful being (physically) for a very short time.
Logged
100 push ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats, and 10km running every single day.

Vail

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +17/-13
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 232
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2016, 03:26:58 AM »

is everyone forgetting that we're trying to apply real world physics and rules to an anime universe?

If you really wanted to be anal about things, you could factor in things like nervous system speeds. So we know that the brain registers sight at about 13 milliseconds so let's say that your brain is the brainiest brain out there so you can react at the bare minimum times. So after your brain registers something it sees, it sends a nervous impulse at ~270 mph (~430 km/h) to process that information. Let's say that your brain processes that information instantly, so now it needs to send a impulse to your eyes to activate kamui at ~270mph again.

So provided that Night Guy is moving faster than that, you might get hit before you even realize you've been hit (I've seen it happen with gunshots). If that's true, then there should be no way that you should be able to react to Night Guy unless you were kamuing prior to the attack's activation...

But then again, if someone really wants to be this anal about playing this game, I will never RP with such a person and it would probably result in me just leaving because that just ain't fun. And I've been at points where I'm struggling at times to squeeze fun out of this place because people want to just dissect every little particle :/
"

There are some issues with your post, but I don't feel like delving into it. I'm getting tired of the whole "oh stop trying to use real life science in an anime universe." While there are obviously differences, the two universes are similar enough that we can use science as a guideline to understand how certain things work.

The last time I checked the Naruto universe is still governed by the fundamental forces and fundamental laws of physics, which is what we were mostly talking about. No one has an issue with everyone and their mother using BS genetics woo to further their ends, so save me the "science is taking out the fun" crap when I try to use basic physics concepts to explain why a Kamui user wouldn't be affected assuming they've already activated it. The last time I checked: gravity still exists in Naruto, people are still made of atoms bound together by electrostatic forces between electron clouds, the biology of human beings is MOSTLY the same, etc.

That "don't use real world science to explain x, y, z" is a load of crap. And this isn't me taking shots at you, Bec. It's just something I'm tired of hearing.
Logged

Vail

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +17/-13
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 232
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2016, 03:29:31 AM »

What's wrong with it being too fast to Hiraishin out of the way either? Technically speaking, opening the eight gate gives you power that puts you 'far beyond that of the five kage'. Since the 4th developed Hiraishin and also happened to be a kage, that would mean the Eighth Gate would technically be able to move faster than Minato.

Faster than Minato himself, maybe, but that doesn't mean that the 8th gate grants you instantaneous speed (which it doesn't) just because it gives you power greater than person who made Hiraishin. You're more powerful than Minato, sure, but that doesn't mean you somehow exceed the mechanics of the technique he created.
Logged

Bocchiere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +46/-59
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2224
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2016, 08:16:09 PM »

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Spatial_Attacks

", it bypasses any and all physical defenses, and as such, cannot be blocked by CONVENTIONAL means."

Limitations
May be blocked by space-based defenses.
Logged

KayentaMoenkopi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +87/-94
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2280
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2016, 01:39:38 AM »

is everyone forgetting that we're trying to apply real world physics and rules to an anime universe?

If you really wanted to be anal about things, you could factor in things like nervous system speeds. So we know that the brain registers sight at about 13 milliseconds so let's say that your brain is the brainiest brain out there so you can react at the bare minimum times. So after your brain registers something it sees, it sends a nervous impulse at ~270 mph (~430 km/h) to process that information. Let's say that your brain processes that information instantly, so now it needs to send a impulse to your eyes to activate kamui at ~270mph again.

So provided that Night Guy is moving faster than that, you might get hit before you even realize you've been hit (I've seen it happen with gunshots). If that's true, then there should be no way that you should be able to react to Night Guy unless you were kamuing prior to the attack's activation...

But then again, if someone really wants to be this anal about playing this game, I will never RP with such a person and it would probably result in me just leaving because that just ain't fun. And I've been at points where I'm struggling at times to squeeze fun out of this place because people want to just dissect every little particle :/
"

There are some issues with your post, but I don't feel like delving into it. I'm getting tired of the whole "oh stop trying to use real life science in an anime universe." While there are obviously differences, the two universes are similar enough that we can use science as a guideline to understand how certain things work.

The last time I checked the Naruto universe is still governed by the fundamental forces and fundamental laws of physics, which is what we were mostly talking about. No one has an issue with everyone and their mother using BS genetics woo to further their ends, so save me the "science is taking out the fun" crap when I try to use basic physics concepts to explain why a Kamui user wouldn't be affected assuming they've already activated it. The last time I checked: gravity still exists in Naruto, people are still made of atoms bound together by electrostatic forces between electron clouds, the biology of human beings is MOSTLY the same, etc.

That "don't use real world science to explain x, y, z" is a load of crap. And this isn't me taking shots at you, Bec. It's just something I'm tired of hearing.

Science? Sure to a certain extent, but no, not in every case.

I rip my spine out to beat you to death with it, the act does not rupture my brain, I don't suddenly lose all ability to move due to my nervous system's main hi-way being removed, but can regrow all the connections and heal the damage I am doing faster than I am doing it so that I can continue to rip my spine out and beat you to death with it...all the while still taking damage from magical things such as kunai which somehow i cannot heal the damage that is done.

~gotta love those Kaguya.

I can spit fire out of my mouth that will incinerate the world and not ever get a blister on my bottom lip.

~gotta love the Uchiha

I can turn my body into water and still remain sentient enough after I have liquefied my brain, to direct my mass in its new phase of matter toward making actions of any kind.

~gotta love those Hozuki

I can create a satellite moon so huge that its very own gravitational field will draw everything up into it negating the gravitational pull of the very earth upon which my enemies stand upon, without throwing the earth's orbit off kilter, while hovering in the air within a stone's throw of the event and not even have my robes flutter from the massive event...

~gotta love that Chibaku Tensei

In a world where metaphysical creatures exist from alternate dimensions, where spirit energy is a tangible force that can be manipulated, where esoteric concepts like chakra can be measured, clearly they do not follow the fundamental concepts of physics as WE define them, otherwise while the hell would raiton be effective against doton. The elemental wheel itself is flawed as far as science is concerned.

And you know what? I am fine with that. a person has to be willing to dispel disbelieve in order to play a fantasy setting rpg.

Also because the majority of the people do not have degrees in higher mathematics, or in the various specialize sciences...because most of us will spend no more time researching a subject than what can be found on the wikipedia web page, the game seriously becomes skewed in favor of the rare individuals on this site who do have a degree and recognizes the value of peer reviewed journals in a scientific community.

but then, you can count those individuals on one hand. especially in a shounen jump manga designed for 13 year olds.

You cannot expect scientific excellence in tv shows like House, which is a medical drama...so then how do you expect to make naruto comply with the law of nature?

I am all for science, and that would be cool to see it behave more along the lines of the real world, but that would require a total overhaul and take much of the magic out of things.

Last I knew this was a game, I don't really want to have to get a degree in microbiology just so I can use some poison in battle, nor then get a masters in physics to see at what magnitude of force I have to hurl my kunai in order to exceed the gravitational pull of your Rinnegan Path.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 01:59:01 AM by KayentaMoenkopi »
Logged

Vail

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +17/-13
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 232
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2016, 02:15:08 AM »

is everyone forgetting that we're trying to apply real world physics and rules to an anime universe?

If you really wanted to be anal about things, you could factor in things like nervous system speeds. So we know that the brain registers sight at about 13 milliseconds so let's say that your brain is the brainiest brain out there so you can react at the bare minimum times. So after your brain registers something it sees, it sends a nervous impulse at ~270 mph (~430 km/h) to process that information. Let's say that your brain processes that information instantly, so now it needs to send a impulse to your eyes to activate kamui at ~270mph again.

So provided that Night Guy is moving faster than that, you might get hit before you even realize you've been hit (I've seen it happen with gunshots). If that's true, then there should be no way that you should be able to react to Night Guy unless you were kamuing prior to the attack's activation...

But then again, if someone really wants to be this anal about playing this game, I will never RP with such a person and it would probably result in me just leaving because that just ain't fun. And I've been at points where I'm struggling at times to squeeze fun out of this place because people want to just dissect every little particle :/
"

There are some issues with your post, but I don't feel like delving into it. I'm getting tired of the whole "oh stop trying to use real life science in an anime universe." While there are obviously differences, the two universes are similar enough that we can use science as a guideline to understand how certain things work.

The last time I checked the Naruto universe is still governed by the fundamental forces and fundamental laws of physics, which is what we were mostly talking about. No one has an issue with everyone and their mother using BS genetics woo to further their ends, so save me the "science is taking out the fun" crap when I try to use basic physics concepts to explain why a Kamui user wouldn't be affected assuming they've already activated it. The last time I checked: gravity still exists in Naruto, people are still made of atoms bound together by electrostatic forces between electron clouds, the biology of human beings is MOSTLY the same, etc.

That "don't use real world science to explain x, y, z" is a load of crap. And this isn't me taking shots at you, Bec. It's just something I'm tired of hearing.

Science? Sure to a certain extent, but no, not in every case.

I rip my spine out to beat you to death with it, the act does not rupture my brain, I don't suddenly lose all ability to move due to my nervous system's main hi-way being removed, but can regrow all the connections and heal the damage I am doing faster than I am doing it so that I can continue to rip my spine out and beat you to death with it...all the while still taking damage from magical things such as kunai which somehow i cannot heal the damage that is done.

~gotta love those Kaguya.

I can spit fire out of my mouth that will incinerate the world and not ever get a blister on my bottom lip.

~gotta love the Uchiha

I can turn my body into water and still remain sentient enough after I have liquefied my brain, to direct my mass in its new phase of matter toward making actions of any kind.

~gotta love those Hozuki

I can create a satellite moon so huge that its very own gravitational field will draw everything up into it negating the gravitational pull of the very earth upon which my enemies stand upon, without throwing the earth's orbit off kilter, while hovering in the air within a stone's throw of the event and not even have my robes flutter from the massive event...

~gotta love that Chibaku Tensei

In a world where metaphysical creatures exist from alternate dimensions, where spirit energy is a tangible force that can be manipulated, where esoteric concepts like chakra can be measured, clearly they do not follow the fundamental concepts of physics as WE define them, otherwise while the hell would raiton be effective against doton. The elemental wheel itself is flawed as far as science is concerned.

And you know what? I am fine with that. a person has to be willing to dispel disbelieve in order to play a fantasy setting rpg.

Also because the majority of the people do not have degrees in higher mathematics, or in the various specialize sciences...because most of us will spend no more time researching a subject than what can be found on the wikipedia web page, the game seriously becomes skewed in favor of the rare individuals on this site who do have a degree and recognizes the value of peer reviewed journals in a scientific community.

but then, you can count those individuals on one hand. especially in a shounen jump manga designed for 13 year olds.

You cannot expect scientific excellence in tv shows like House, which is a medical drama...so then how do you expect to make naruto comply with the law of nature?

I am all for science, and that would be cool to see it behave more along the lines of the real world, but that would require a total overhaul and take much of the magic out of things.

Last I knew this was a game, I don't really want to have to get a degree in microbiology just so I can use some poison in battle, nor then get a masters in physics to see at what magnitude of force I have to hurl my kunai in order to exceed the gravitational pull of your Rinnegan Path.

Respectfully, I never said in every case and I even said that RL science can only be used as a guideline in certain scenarios (that is, those scenarios where the science of Naruto aligns with the real world). With that in mind, your post seems like you're preaching to the choir since you listed specific instances where the science of Naruto obviously diverges from real life.

"You cannot expect scientific excellence in tv shows like House, which is a medical drama...so then how do you expect to make naruto comply with the law of nature?" I never said that, so that's a straw man.

"Last I knew this was a game, I don't really want to have to get a degree in microbiology just so I can use some poison in battle, nor then get a masters in physics to see at what magnitude of force I have to hurl my kunai in order to exceed the gravitational pull of your Rinnegan Path."

You don't need a degree (which I don't have yet, though I'm in school for it now) to be able to make use of science concepts lol.
Logged

Bocchiere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +46/-59
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2224
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2016, 02:16:38 AM »

There is a limit, in both directions.

The short story is that the Naruto world does operate under a set of laws. Those laws are seemingly the same as our own, barring the existence of chakra. We have to remember that this is something people are supposed to be reading watching or whatever for fun so sometimes rule of cool wins out.

For instance in their final battle naruto and sasuke clash high in the sky with their strongest attacks and then fall and crash down to earth more than far enough that it should have killed them both, and since they were both basically unconscious it seems unlikely they protected themselves with chakra. So you could take that and say scientifically the body of someone in Naruto world must by naturally ten times tougher than a normal humans since they can fall hundreds of feet out of the sky and crash into the ground no worse for the wear. Or you can assume Kishimoto just thought it would look cool and it isn't actually indicative of the rules of the universe.

I've had more personal experience with the, "it's naruto it doesn't have to make sense" crowd, than people being too realistic but either extreme is stifling, if for different reasons.
Logged

KayentaMoenkopi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +87/-94
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2280
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2016, 02:22:07 AM »

you miss the point vail...this is how i look at it.
 while you do not say this is how things work in every instance, if you read again what I say, neither do i.

just sharing my out look on how to have fun in a game dear, in a world where things do not perfectly mesh up, are explainable, and never make sense...hax is an issue that unfortunately will annoy gamers and fans throughout the ages.
lol

Logged

Eric

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +101/-100
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3504
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2016, 02:54:50 AM »


... I am all for science, and that would be cool to see it behave more along the lines of the real world, but that would require a total overhaul and take much of the magic out of things.

Last I knew this was a game, I don't really want to have to get a degree in microbiology just so I can use some poison in battle, nor then get a masters in physics to see at what magnitude of force I have to hurl my kunai in order to exceed the gravitational pull of your Rinnegan Path.

The point of using real life science here in SL is to make certain comparisons, such as you throwing a kunai to escape the gravitational pull of the Deva Path, a moot point. You would have to throw the kunai exceedingly hard to break that connection if it is focused on both you and the kunai and going at full strength. Additionally, microbiology would be a useful background to have when explaining the counter to said poison, or even explaining how said poison works.

You can google most of the stuff and get the anwer in non-scholarly articles. Wikipedia even.

-------------------------

Quote
I rip my spine out to beat you to death with it, the act does not rupture my brain, I don't suddenly lose all ability to move due to my nervous system's main hi-way being removed, but can regrow all the connections and heal the damage I am doing faster than I am doing it so that I can continue to rip my spine out and beat you to death with it...all the while still taking damage from magical things such as kunai which somehow i cannot heal the damage that is done.

In the manga/anime, the Kaguya skeletal structure is different than that of the average person's. Yang release permits the manipulation of the body in such a fashion that the bones (and nerves) regenerate as the spine is pulled out, perhaps a reason why when we see Kimmimaro do it he doesn't pull it out as swiftly as other bones.

You don't have to be a degree in physiology and anatomy to come to the conclusion that the rate of regeneration is faster in this particular breed of human, exceeding the regeneration rates of some of the best animals in the regular world.

Quote
can spit fire out of my mouth that will incinerate the world and not ever get a blister on my bottom lip.

The katon chakra does not seem to become fire until it is expelled from what I see. After an extended period of time parts of the body become more accustomed to higher temperatures ( frequent cooks regularly have fingers that are less sensitive to heat than newbie cooks), hence why after a certain amount of time training the fireball jutsu there won't be blisters or burns.

Quote
I can turn my body into water and still remain sentient enough after I have liquefied my brain, to direct my mass in its new phase of matter toward making actions of any kind.

This yang release allows the Hozuki to turn themselves into jelly-like creatures, where the physical limitations of having a largely solid body (bones, muscle, etc.) are replaced with the physically flexible gelly-like substance that they turn into. This mass modification of body, to explain to the last detail, is beyond the scope of most fights, and so the explaining stops short in saying that if something were to happen to the gel body, then the main body would be affected because it is still the body of the individual.

Quote
I can create a satellite moon so huge that its very own gravitational field will draw everything up into it negating the gravitational pull of the very earth upon which my enemies stand upon, without throwing the earth's orbit off kilter, while hovering in the air within a stone's throw of the event and not even have my robes flutter from the massive event...

Not everything is drawn up. The principle of the Deva path pull selectively increases the gravitational attraction between two objects; the chibaku tensei then probably works with a similar mechanism on a much larger scale. To be affected orbit-wise by this on a level that is noticeable to the average person would require a chibaku tensei of a much larger size than that seen in the series.

http://www.livescience.com/32120-can-a-nuclear-blast-alter-earths-rotation.html

Quote
In a world where metaphysical creatures exist from alternate dimensions, where spirit energy is a tangible force that can be manipulated, where esoteric concepts like chakra can be measured, clearly they do not follow the fundamental concepts of physics as WE define them, otherwise while the hell would raiton be effective against doton. The elemental wheel itself is flawed as far as science is concerned.

Many concepts are derived from just the series, including the elemental wheel. These alternate worlds and creatures exist and defy all sorts of things about the world today, but some of these divergences still make reasonable sense in our actual world.

Lightning release beating earth release is a matter of thinking. Lazers can blast rock, but natural lightning only marginal affects the ground at large. However, if there was a large rock right in the path of the natural lightning, I'm willing to bet that it would destroy that.

Water erodes earth regularly, but if the water doesn't have enough force to it (a ripple on a pond compared to a crashing beach wave) then a solid mass of earth is not going anywhere, and will just take the attack. Only after repeated crashing and wearing without regeneration will the mass of earth be taken down a peg.

The principle of chakra itself is the magical element to things, and in many ways, magic is just a special kind of energy in this fantasy world that can be manipulated and used. Where narutoverse logic fails real world logic can often pick up, and vice versa.

------------------

Finding harmony between the two is the fun in it. I mean, it really is sometimes nice to be able to come to a game and use some of that knowledge learned in school, or heck, applying it so that it can be learned in the first place. Nothing makes physics a little less tedious than using its principles to come up with a strategy or move that totally blows the competition bananas.

It's also fun to just use narutoverse logic too, since that typically requires far less typing.  :D
Logged
Anything you can think of I can't think of, let me know; that's how the sharing circle works.

Becquerel

  • Site Staff (Game Master)
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +36/-15
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 763
    • View Profile
Re: The Eighth Gate and Kamui
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2016, 03:06:41 AM »

The katon chakra does not seem to become fire until it is expelled from what I see. After an extended period of time parts of the body become more accustomed to higher temperatures ( frequent cooks regularly have fingers that are less sensitive to heat than newbie cooks), hence why after a certain amount of time training the fireball jutsu there won't be blisters or burns.

That just made me think of this and smile :) And I believe it is very true to SL-logic as well. I know it's a bit off topic, but we've kind of strayed a bit off tangent from the original question anyway. But, if people really want to get that in-depth about why something they did will work by backing it up with peer-reviewed articles and several-page essays then they can do that. I've just come to the conclusion that there's very little reason to waste the time and energy on just a few lines of RP that might not be scientifically sound :/ If that's how people have fun, then they can keep on doing it. But, I probably won't be involved. I tried using science in the past, but the loudest and most vocal person always ends up being declared right it seems even if you're using 'anime science' or whatever. Basically, it's just a war of attrition at that point.
Logged
100 push ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats, and 10km running every single day.
Pages: 1 [2]
 

Page created in 5.047 seconds with 16 queries.