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[Eric]

Should we include a set of IC hunt rules? There is sufficient evidence to suggest that they are not really necessary to keeping the biju circulating between players, and while I was about to have some fun trying to start a discussion on them, I think it might be best to gauge if there is even a strong desire for IC hunts.

OOC fights for the biju seem to be working fairly well in this tournament for redistribution, and the biju are mostly collectors' items at this point; many of the people vying for and successfully acquiring them do not really need them for the sake of power from my point of view. The only motivation I see for making an IC hunt set of rules is to eventually transition the biju acquisition process to all RP.

Heresy, I know, I am burning at my own stake with that sentence, but that is the only way I see the biju being slightly more than collectors' items and trophies. That dark path down an IC hunt only route is extremely long, perilous, and not likely to receive overwhelming support if there is no proven IC hunt system in place that deals with the issues of the past.

I do not really think an IC hunt system is really necessary for the biju as it stands, but if one were to be implemented, I believe it would only work if it basically tells the participants how to RP, in essence, and anyone who does not follow the IC hunt system is by necessity excluded from taking part in the hunts.

What are everyone's thoughts on this topic?

[Teostra]

I think it would be great to have an IC hunt system in place. If I had gotten the 7 tails, I would have demanded any challenges to be IC only. Thankfully, the way bijuu are used now is so bad that I'm glad I dropped out of the competition. If they are to be OOC only and used as trophies, then I don't believe that they should even be used in convention RP. They might as well not exist in their current state when it comes to SL RP.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

I think that to make a rule that says a host cannot RP the process of being hunted and then fighting to keep his beast is a bad choice.

had the IC hunt caused problems? yes. will it always? no. I think people can manage to rp this situation just as easily as they would anything.

I am not for making a rule against RP use of the challenge system.

[Hitler-Chan]

I might get a bit vulgar, viewer discretion advised.

YOU MOTHER...kidding.

I am quite passionate about this topic, I personally would love to see people quit hiding behind their OP village barriers. Some of these things are absolutely ridiculous, then when you find out a counter or a way around it and argue, they void you outright. If IC hunts are to be a thing, then the villages housing the beasts must make it POSSIBLE for potential hunters to follow through. I'm not asking for a cake walk...but..

"A seal used in conjunction with the Mondai no Konran and overlapping this defense is one of the prides of the hidden cloud village. Utilizing the constantly increased ionized air constantly over the village, this seal allows natural lightning to rain down on anything and anybody within the range of the barrier seal. Able to call down near limitless lightning strikes, such a dangerous and powerful seal can only be used by the Raikage's. Enemies are targeted and identified through use of the Mondai no Konran it's connected to."

"A massive dome shaped seal placed around a certain area. This particular seal is placed around the entire village of Kumo and encompasses everything within. It begins at the center of the village and stretches out three quarters of a mile from the outside of the village in a perfect circle going beneath the ground and into the sky as well. The purpose of the jutsu is it marks everything and everybody within it’s boundaries and anything coming into contact with reducing the effectiveness of their chakra based abilities. It produces a toll of multiplying chakra drain of techniques three times while decreasing effectiveness of chakra based abilities by half. This also includes chakra based attacks made from outside the range of the barrier coming into contact with said barrier seal. This defense is a permanent seal on the land area itself and is only subject to collapse should the Raikage will it. This also serves to further train Kumo shinobi. With such a constant draw on their chakra levels for a prolonged period of time when not under the effects of the barrier they are endowed with unnaturally high chakra levels when compared to other nations."

"A barrier empowered by a crystal located within the depths of the Hokage Residence, its circumference encircles the village's walls, two-meters away from them. The barrier works in two ways.First it has a "passive" effect which is active at all times and absorbs any attack that uses chakra and makes contact with it from the outside.Second it has an "active" effect which absorbs all the ninjutsu attacks from inside,but it may only be activated by someone possessing the Preta Path and who knows of the technique-specific hand seal."

I actually tried to find stuff for Kiri, but they void bijuu anyway, so I don't even know how this would work anyway. >> For fairness I even looked at Uzu, and we don't even have a space-time barrier.

Unless a jinck makes an appearance outside of his villages barriers, then sure, but they won't EVER do that unless forced.

[Hazama]

And going off of what Yujo said, barriers aren't the only things that make the IC hunts something of a challenge, though I agree with what he said fully. Huh, funny how that keeps happening lately.

Regardless, it is also the people of the village itself. I'm going to use myself as an example, let's say that I'm the host of the Six Tails again, and someone comes searching for me while I'm in Uzushio. Even taking away what barriers we do have, he gets inside, finds me, and what? Asks me to step outside with him? Away from everyone? While he is at it, might as hell to just ask me to hang myself for him, too >>

Nah, if someone actually did all that, I would want to step outside and have a fight.

BUT, for the sake of the example, let's say I say no. And he attacks, or hell, let's just say he attacks me right off the bat. Well, of course I am going to defend myself and demolish this fool to the best of my abilities... But I'm sure that none of my children would want to stand off to the side while I fight some dude through the streets of Uzushiogakure... Well, maybe Rikudo, but that is besides the point.  So with my children alone, this dude is fighting me and no less than four other people. Then Keito is gonna get in on it because we go waaayyy back, plus he's the Kage, and he isn't gonna want people thinking Uzushio is full of pushovers. So this man comes down with his pimp hand ready, adding to the total count.

And then Yujo comes along cause me and his pops go way back, too. And he just looks at the man and turns him to ice, cause that's his thing. And then Rikudo notices the slaughter-fest going on and decides that he wants to get in on it for some good ol' fashioned family bonding.

And even after all that, the old lady that Athos helped that one time down the street decides to grasp her ladle in her hand, wielding the lid for a pot as a shield, before charging into battle. And that show of heroism causes all the people of Uzushio to bear arms and to attack this person.

And I haven't even mentioned the NPC guards, ANBU, Death Knights, Manji ANBU...

Do you see what I'm getting at? I would love the idea of IC hunts and putting some rules down, but that begs the question, to what levels can we place rules on this before it is just scripted and stopping people from doing their casual RPs in their villages or whatever? o.o

[Becquerel]

Well, walking right into a village and trying to start something would be as smart as walking into Mecca and saying something bad about Mohammad.

I think the IC hunt is difficult because of SL's structure as a whole. In SL, there is no ceiling and there is no max level. People constantly add more and more to their characters to the point of fighting them would be like going to a buffet and planning to eat them out of food. It just isn't going to work. Now, imagine if you have a whole village with characters like that. If someone has one of the tailed beasts in their hands and is tied to this specific village, I don't believe that there's nothing stopping them from just staying in the village so long as they actively RP. This would effectively result in stagnation of the tailed beasts, as there would either be no turnover or it would all be internalized.

The only possible way I could think about taking a bijuu in this situation would be to gain the trust of that holder over a long period of time and basically stab them in the back when they least expect it. Of course, this wouldn't work for two reasons. One, the bijuu holder must be notified of anyone that's on the challenge list so basically that person would never be able to actually sneak up on them. And two, because even if the target was asleep and the challenger managed to literally cuddle up in bed with them they would be able to dodge whatever came next through some convoluted method.

As for village defenses, I'll be honest because I haven't been keeping up with many of the other villages I don't know what they really have for defense. Just about four I actively follow and I know Iwa just recently dropped their anti-disintegration barrier in favor for two sentinels. I do think that automatic village defenses can be extremely cheap and result in bad gameplay, but there can also be good ways to do it. I hope that with Oto, I am fair to all of the players who visit with its defenses. We have a 'sensing field' thanks to Yua, LRADs that Bec has built, a collection of diverse NPCs that are effectively my alts that I use to do NPC things in the village, and the recently built Mecha Kyuubi. Along with that, we also have a handful of powerful shinobi who would be willing to RP any defense as well. I know a village isn't supposed to be an easy takeover since its effectively a stronghold, but an attack shouldn't literally be impossible. At the same time, it should be able to defend itself from people who try to literally wipe it off the map in one or two turns.

I don't know of any way to really fix it though, not with the way SL is in its current state. Nothing really beyond policing ourselves as our characters climb higher and higher into proverbial space (since so many people already climbed up past the clouds on that ladder). That and maybe make IC death not as bad as it is. Death currently runs you the risk of losing your character, losing all of your gear, AND having your character turned into an Edo by the opponent. Imagine that if you were playing some other MMO on hardcore mode that if a boss kills you, you have to fight that boss AND your old character AND any other characters he might have killed with your new character. Oh, and he leveled up while you were working on getting back to that point too.

So basically, the only way a bijuu holder would only be at risk for losing their bijuu with the current way this place works in an IC context, they would have to be taking a convenient stroll out in the woods in order to be attacked. Not counting the intel gathering that would also need to take place in order for someone to find out the bijuu holder.

[Hitler-Chan]

And going off of what Yujo said, barriers aren't the only things that make the IC hunts something of a challenge, though I agree with what he said fully. Huh, funny how that keeps happening lately.

Regardless, it is also the people of the village itself. I'm going to use myself as an example, let's say that I'm the host of the Six Tails again, and someone comes searching for me while I'm in Uzushio. Even taking away what barriers we do have, he gets inside, finds me, and what? Asks me to step outside with him? Away from everyone? While he is at it, might as hell to just ask me to hang myself for him, too >>

Nah, if someone actually did all that, I would want to step outside and have a fight.

BUT, for the sake of the example, let's say I say no. And he attacks, or hell, let's just say he attacks me right off the bat. Well, of course I am going to defend myself and demolish this fool to the best of my abilities... But I'm sure that none of my children would want to stand off to the side while I fight some dude through the streets of Uzushiogakure... Well, maybe Rikudo, but that is besides the point.  So with my children alone, this dude is fighting me and no less than four other people. Then Keito is gonna get in on it because we go waaayyy back, plus he's the Kage, and he isn't gonna want people thinking Uzushio is full of pushovers. So this man comes down with his pimp hand ready, adding to the total count.

And then Yujo comes along cause me and his pops go way back, too. And he just looks at the man and turns him to ice, cause that's his thing. And then Rikudo notices the slaughter-fest going on and decides that he wants to get in on it for some good ol' fashioned family bonding.

And even after all that, the old lady that Athos helped that one time down the street decides to grasp her ladle in her hand, wielding the lid for a pot as a shield, before charging into battle. And that show of heroism causes all the people of Uzushio to bear arms and to attack this person.

And I haven't even mentioned the NPC guards, ANBU, Death Knights, Manji ANBU...

Do you see what I'm getting at? I would love the idea of IC hunts and putting some rules down, but that begs the question, to what levels can we place rules on this before it is just scripted and stopping people from doing their casual RPs in their villages or whatever? o.o

This actually made me laugh aloud. Good on ya.

I think if people just quit jumping on the void wagon as soon as their silly barriers and village's 'natural' defenses fall, we'd be goochie. Aside from just getting rid of their silly barriers. >> I am soooo okay with Anti-space time barriers compared to the Anti-Villain no jutsu barriers people put around their villages and just further their descent into obscurity and RP stagnation. Know why a good hero needs to have good villains? Because without the villain, what point is there to ever strive for greatness?

To put it into perspective, the OP village barriers are the super-automated chairs from WALL-E >> They've allowed you all to become fat. SEE I TOLD YOU I'D GET VULGAR!

If an IC hunt is ever going to be successful, people need to recognize two things about 'their villages'.

ONE: Just because you frequent the village board you like, more than others, doesn't give you any sort of jurisdiction as to what RP can and cannot be done within it's bounds. If you don't yet get what I am alluding to, you don't have the right to void RP because it doesn't suit your mood. It's the worst shit ever.

TWO: This isn't Naruto Sim simulator 2016, bad people exist in every context, stifling them removes the possibility for greatness, you can't just get pissy about someone wreaking 'your' village. Speaking from experience, without major villains playing roles in my time during SL, I would not have climbed as hard as I did to become what I am today, and while some of you dislike who I am, it'd be hard to refute my accomplishments.

TL;DR: This next generation of Rp'ers, if there is going to be one at all, will all be choji. >>

[KayentaMoenkopi]

I still think that it should not be a rule that you cannot do an IC hunt and IC bijuu things.

It is not impossible to do. And for those people who are creative enough to pull it off, calm enough to discuss problems rationally, and get along with their RP partners during the whole thing...it should be permitted.

I hate the blanket punishment thing just cause a few people have behaved badly. That is like saying because a girl treated you like shit you will never date again in your entire life.

You really need to take these things on a case by case deal,

and it is not just the villages behaving badly in these situations but mostly those on both sides. And in OOC issues as well. Over the years there have been just as many problems in the OOC match as the IC ones. and yet, we are not saying ban all matches and shut down the site.

It can work. And the option to at least try and make it work needs to be protected.

[Trev]

I'm in favor of not using IC hunts at all. At least, until I see something that would make it possible to do said hunt, as almost everyone has failed. OOC biju fights aren't perfect, but their success rate is higher than 0

[Eric]

Since we are actually having a bit of "the" talk, then a few things:

... Do you see what I'm getting at? I would love the idea of IC hunts and putting some rules down, but that begs the question, to what levels can we place rules on this before it is just scripted and stopping people from doing their casual RPs in their villages or whatever? o.o

Even if it were not scripted, an attack on any village of any reasonable scale is going to disrupt casual RP's. That's just the way it is.

What makes OOC fighting work well the way it is? The lack of stakes is nice, but it isn't something that can carry over to an IC hunt system; the literal exclusion of unnecessary individuals and the regulation of what can go into the fight ARE two things that can translate well into an IC hunt. Just because the hunt is IC does not mean that the hunt has to take place in a stream of RP with every other RPer in the realm.

Think about it. What is more important, RPing the biju hunt IC, or RPing the biju hunt with your SL character? If the former is more important to you, then the following suggestion is not really going to taste right in your mouth.

1) Change the name to RP biju fights instead of IC biju fights.

2) Have a judge or two over this entire RP hunt. This is a much more time time consuming task, especially if the RPs all take place on SL, as the judge has to be privy to EVERYTHING that goes in in the RP in question. Evidence has to be maintained at almost every turn, but the judge is the final word on things.

3) Have this RP take place in a separate stream of RP than the general IC stream.

4) Similar to the Hero's Guild, or even using the Hero/Hunter's Guild if so desired, RP hunts are set up and conducted using a set of agreed upon guidelines.

5) Every prospective hunter and every jinchurikii must set up a separate character that fits the agreed upon guidelines in strength, but may retain the history of the character up to the point of the challenge.

6) This stream of RP starts with a declaration of a challenge, and ends with the conclusion of the hunt or the forfeit of all hunting party members, the effects of which differ depending on the situation.

If nothing else from this list, a judge for the RP hunt is my highest recommendation. Remember,  Judges prevent Grudges.

[Vail]

Since we are actually having a bit of "the" talk, then a few things:

... Do you see what I'm getting at? I would love the idea of IC hunts and putting some rules down, but that begs the question, to what levels can we place rules on this before it is just scripted and stopping people from doing their casual RPs in their villages or whatever? o.o

Even if it were not scripted, an attack on any village of any reasonable scale is going to disrupt casual RP's. That's just the way it is.

What makes OOC fighting work well the way it is? The lack of stakes is nice, but it isn't something that can carry over to an IC hunt system; the literal exclusion of unnecessary individuals and the regulation of what can go into the fight ARE two things that can translate well into an IC hunt. Just because the hunt is IC does not mean that the hunt has to take place in a stream of RP with every other RPer in the realm.

Think about it. What is more important, RPing the biju hunt IC, or RPing the biju hunt with your SL character? If the former is more important to you, then the following suggestion is not really going to taste right in your mouth.

1) Change the name to RP biju fights instead of IC biju fights.

2) Have a judge or two over this entire RP hunt. This is a much more time time consuming task, especially if the RPs all take place on SL, as the judge has to be privy to EVERYTHING that goes in in the RP in question. Evidence has to be maintained at almost every turn, but the judge is the final word on things.

3) Have this RP take place in a separate stream of RP than the general IC stream.

4) Similar to the Hero's Guild, or even using the Hero/Hunter's Guild if so desired, RP hunts are set up and conducted using a set of agreed upon guidelines.

5) Every prospective hunter and every jinchurikii must set up a separate character that fits the agreed upon guidelines in strength, but may retain the history of the character up to the point of the challenge.

6) This stream of RP starts with a declaration of a challenge, and ends with the conclusion of the hunt or the forfeit of all hunting party members, the effects of which differ depending on the situation.

If nothing else from this list, a judge for the RP hunt is my highest recommendation. Remember,  Judges prevent Grudges.

I second Eric's idea.

[KayentaMoenkopi]

I think that by making it outside of the IC content on the site that it hardly matters what you call it, it is still OOC.

Bad things happened in the past. Now the willingness to try and make it work is rather dead. I get it.

But I think that is you just handle it like any other RP scenario, then it is quite possible. there is a lot of recent resistance and out right refusal to give this a go. And that is fine for host who just aren't into that.

But for hosts who feel that they can legitimately make an IC hunt/fight happen...

Well how about they make a pledge as to what they are willing to do to accommodate a successful situation without being asked to just lay down and die...to severely handicap themselves.

Example:

Yugito as host of the Nibi...

I pledge to be accessible to hunters, and not turn tail and run away and hide in an impenetrable fortress.

I request the hunter pledge to use IC means of locating me and engaging in combat.

We both agree upon a judge, and then proceed.

Terms are set between the interested parties. This doesn't have to be permanently banned and can work.

[Eric]

I think that by making it outside of the IC content on the site that it hardly matters what you call it, it is still OOC...

Baby steps. If people can RP a biju hunt OOC as you put it, then people can maybe start RPing biju hunts IC. At least, that's my take on it.

... But for hosts who feel that they can legitimately make an IC hunt/fight happen...

Well how about they make a pledge as to what they are willing to do to accommodate a successful situation without being asked to just lay down and die...to severely handicap themselves.

Example:

Yugito as host of the Nibi...

I pledge to be accessible to hunters, and not turn tail and run away and hide in an impenetrable fortress.

I request the hunter pledge to use IC means of locating me and engaging in combat.

We both agree upon a judge, and then proceed.

Terms are set between the interested parties. This doesn't have to be permanently banned and can work.

What is accommodating and what is honestly just laying down and dying would have to be ingrained into the IC hunt rules; I personally do not trust the hunted and the hunter to work that out without any sort of guidelines or standards other than their own.

Then of course, in an IC setting, what would be done about interloper interloping? I mean, if the hunter(s) is meta'd into exposure and suddenly has to fight a village, then said hunter(s) are likely to call in backup (if they have it) and make the RP even bigger. It would take months to get through a RP with 10-15 people, and to be under the assumption that every single one of them is on the same page as the original parties regarding terms of the Hunt is at best hopeful and at worst uncaring to the general desire to not have IC powers nerfed when it matters (major village battles, attacks on characters, etc.).

Unless the host leaves villages and uncooperative allies behind, then it would become problematic very quickly if, once IC engaged in batte, everyone and their mother starts to get involved. And it is IC, so what really stops unaffiliated parties from the joining the RP? Ban that, essentially? Now that's not really IC to say that no one, even those with the ability and knowledge, to get involved.

To close, the IC fight would have to start looking like an OOC hunt just to maintain an artificia environment of artificial rules that do not exist in regular RP. At that point, why not just make it an OOC hunt to begin with?

[KayentaMoenkopi]

What?

RP a hunt ooc?

Jesus... there is no RP in ooc. Its...outside of the context of role play.

oh muh god >.< you give me a  headache. I never said people RP a hunt OOC...

but whatever.

I do not believe we should be banning RP anything. Not counting the smex that neji has made a ban-able offence.

[Eric]

What?

RP a hunt ooc?

Jesus... there is no RP in ooc. Its...outside of the context of role play.

oh muh god >.< you give me a  headache. I never said people RP a hunt OOC...

but whatever.

I do not believe we should be banning RP anything. Not counting the smex that neji has made a ban-able offence.

I could have sworn that stood for out of character, but that's besides the point; to have the hunt scenario itself be IC or not at all is a surefire way to ensure that it never gets introduced back into the RP rules. From the discussion that I scan today, the enthusiasm for a straight up IC hunt with some basic guidelines is not there.

The idea is to get people used to hunting a bit for their target, in a "context" that is separate from the unregulateable SL context, and into a new "context" that is regulateable to our hearts' contents, before implementing this in RP. A test server sort of situation if you will.

Speaking of the test server... Has it been considered doing some RP over there next time it's up? It has the same structure as SL main physically, but it has a cleaner RP slate to work with if I"m not mistaken.