Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Trev]

Alright, so this thread was in demand awhile ago and there was some interest in seeing some rule passed. This thread is not a thread to bring up past accusations, affect any prior fight, etc. Just discuss a rule.

As of right now, based on what I've seen there are three options

1. Do nothing, it's not a big deal.

2. My proposal. Which would have those caught tampering in the future be stripped of their tailed beast (if they had one) and people involved be suspended from biju fights for 1-3 months. It's a little harsh, but fair imo. Only problem is it would be very difficult to enforce. As unless you have proof (messages) of tampering, you can't prove it. So would only work if one of the parties came forward and admitted to it.

3. I've also seen Athos propose to eliminate FFA and leave it strictly a 1 v 1 fight. Although I think I also saw him say maybe allow tag matches. I'm sure he can explain his solution when he sees this thread.

So yeah, turn it over to you guys. Comment if you think nothing should be done, comment or edit on the two proposed solutions, or propose your own. And don't forget to hit the subscribe button

[Eric]

On first thought I assumed you meant like, tampering with the tailed beast itself, splitting the beastie into pieces and all that good stuff. But now I see you mean the other kind of tampering, the one near synonymous with rigging.

Well, I am definitely against 3, since if a FFA of sorts is desired by parties then I see no reason to make a rule stopping that from happening. Just because one FFA turns out bad doesn't mean all of them will.

For 2 to work, there would need to be evidence beyond one party coming forward. A confession letter or something similar to what Dart-Kamui did is about as close to "evidence" as you are going to get. I suggest outlining the whole process, including what counts as evidence, what punishments are available to the Council (you've already done that), and a clause for repeat offenders.

[Ѕhadow]

3

[Hazama]

3

+1

[Nekomaru]

I'm going to have to toss my vote in for the second option.

[Dart Terumī]

I vote Option 2 with Eric's suggestions being looked into.

[Hazama]

So why do you guys want to waste time making a rule set for something that will probably never happen again (an FFA that is) and also boils down to, "It's fine if you don't get caught." ?

Not to mention all you would need to do to get around it is suggest the team up IC. Because we can't make a rule to just character control people in a Free For All situation.

"Let's all kill this guy!"

"Makes sense to me."

free-for-all
ˈˌfrē fə ˈˌrôl/
noun
a disorganized or unrestricted situation or event in which everyone may take part, especially a fight, discussion, or trading market.

It's literally supposed to be a fight where anything goes. So what's the point if we restrict it? Gee you got stabbed in the back in this brawl between multiple highly trained assassins fighting to the death. Who could have guessed that sportsmanship would not be paramount in such an event?

The only reason to restrict it is so we don't have people throwing a fit every time they lose an FFA, even though they'll probably never happen again, and that is why I want to just eliminate them entirely rather than make up rules for behavior that said rules will fail to control in any way.

[JayJay]

I didn't really experience a problem different from one, one, might experience in a regular fight. So, it was neither bad nor was it good.

So, if you were to get rid of FFA, how would you categorize a tamper? If it's a 1v1, how would you know anything is being tampered with. I think, for this rule to make sense or have a purpose, you'd need to host more FFAs. Though, I think the main problem was the actual matchup, that being that it was 5-ways. The 3-2 odd made a gang up a little more likely. So, if you were to have another FFA, it would need to have an even number of participants.

Plus, like Athos said, all one would need to do is IC voice the plan of action and there's really nothing any judge could do about it. So, really, this entire thread really serves no purpose other than to decide whether or not to give FFAs another try or to absolve it completely.

[Eric]

So why do you guys want to waste time making a rule set for something that will probably never happen again (an FFA that is) and also boils down to, "It's fine if you don't get caught." ?

The same reason we wasted time making rules for the tailed beasts instead of getting rid of them completely when they provide little to nothing to SL RP. Not everyone agrees with the sentiment that it's pointless and useless. Should you decide to give up your tailed beasts like the last guy who caught them all (or nearly all in your case), then to have a plan in place for handling the situation is a good idea, even if it includes a FFA-style fight for odd matchups (3 want the beast, fairer to have all 3 fight than have 2 fight then the winner fight the other 1, who gets an automatic bi-round to the Finals).

The bracket tournaments, with 1v1 fights, worked very well despite claims that tournaments don't work around here. So why would a FFA be any different? It just needs work, just like the main biju rules.

The spirit of a Free-for-all in a game  setting is that it is everyman for himself, just like in First-Person shooters, and no players are supposed to be teaming up together beforehand to take out another player. Team-ups are frowned upon because there is Team deathmatch and such modes for those kind of fights (which, btw, might would be a cleaner alternative to pure FFA's).

The issue is that, conveniently funneling is one thing, making up IC reasons for the team-up (which, btw, you guys did not even bother doing), etc. is one thing, but actively, OOCly ganging up on "lesser" players with no apparent reason but to maliciously eliminate them from the competition defeats the purpose of having a game FFA in the first place. Such things were not against the rules then, but can be made against the rules in the future.

Because we can't make a rule to just character control people in a Free For All situation...

Actually, yes we can, just like we can make rules for IC behavior of characters who are Edo's, who are summoners of biju and Edos, etc. The vast majority of technique rules here on SL are about character controlling to reduce unfair play, not making sure that people stay in line with the canon -quite the opposite usually in that the restrictions make the technique or action less than it would be in canon - or speak nicely to each other.

So, if you were to get rid of FFA, how would you categorize a tamper? If it's a 1v1, how would you know anything is being tampered with...

If the judge can be shown making an agreement to agree with the moves of one player and disregard the moves of another without appeal, that would be tampering. Going against established SL rules (Edo rules, hiraishin rules, etc.) for the benefit of one player and the detriment of another.

Who could have guessed that sportsmanship would not be paramount in such an event?

This an OOC fight between players, not an a fight to the death in real life. Sportsmanship is expected at some basic level between players. Both in discussions regarding the fight details and in the fight itself. The lack of sportsmanship is the reason biju battles are notorious for being unfun to play in, a lack of sportsmanship is why that FFA turned out the way it did. A game, especially one like this, without some form of sportsmanship is not a game.

Trev, Kayenta, and others ring like Notre Dame's bells everytime that point gets brought back up.

[Trev]

@Athos
There was a time when people said tournaments would never happen again because they don't work, that didn't last and I'm sure eventually if the site last that long there will be another situation where FFA could be used or tag matches.

As for the "It's fine if you don't get caught" that's with any form of cheating or tampering. Until someone gets caught, nothing can really be done about. Like steroids in sports, perjury, people in government using a pay to play system, etc. Some you can test for, others usually aren't known unless evidence is found or someone comes clean.

You are right though with the IC coming together. Nobody can and nobody should stop that. But if the fight is ooc, one can't exactly do that. But if it is IC and people came together before in an IC manner, I have no issue with that.

I mean if we use stats, we've had 1 FFA and there was tampering in someone coming forward. So we technically have a 100% success rate of someone going to tamper and someone coming clean about it >.> (That's a bad joke btw)

@Jay
If it was 1 v 1, as Eric said only real tampering could be from a judge.

Also, if the fight is IC and the rp was done, sure nothing can be done about it. But it has to be IC.


Ultimately, I can see where you guys are coming from. My proposal would be very hard to enforce, and probably useless. Although the stipulations I proposed have happened before, so who knows. Which is why I hoped someone else might come up with another solution. I just don't think we should scrap FFA all together, just cause it didn't work once. If we're going by not working, tournaments wouldn't have gotten another chance, and the biju would have been scrapped a very long time ago. Although I do see the appeal in quick solution that instead of fixing a problem, just kills the situation.

Hopefully more opinions flow in, else I see a stalemate coming. So maybe we can spitball other ideas, since this one seems to be a split (until others comment) and I have an odd feeling neither side will convince the others cause ya know, SL. Anyone got anything different from Athos or I?

[Eric]

Ultimately, I can see where you guys are coming from. My proposal would be very hard to enforce, and probably useless. Although the stipulations I proposed have happened before, so who knows. Which is why I hoped someone else might come up with another solution...

To fixing FFA matches or tampering of biju fights in general? My suggestion for both:

Tampering with the spirit of the process is very serious, but we don't want to turn FFA's and such into Clinton email server investigations and Russian hacking allegations. What I am proposing is not at all going to sound like me, but rest assured, it's my thoughts:


FFA's and tournament style biju fights should require a Honor system, similar to what universities have for tests and such. All participants agree to abide by a certain "honor code" that, currently, would consist of the following key points:

- As a participant, I agree to abide by the rules of the Game (game/forum rules) to the best of my ability.

- As a participant, I agree to remain courteous and polite towards my fellow participants, even if he or she is not reasonably courteous and polite towards me. I will attempt to the best of my ability to be a good sport in the event of an unfavorable outcome.

-As a participant, I agree to follow the rules of the Tournament and/or Free-for-All and will accept any punishments or boons that may result from being found to be in compliance or out of compliance with said rules.

-As a participant, I agree that if I or another participant at any point is found guilty of a Honor violation, then subject to appeal only to the Biju Council, I accept any punishments or boons that may result from the violation.

- As a participant I agree to acknowledge any Official (declared by judge, tournament conclusion results, dice rolls by valid party, bracket creations by valid party, etc.) outcomes.

- As a participant, I will report any unethical behavior that comes to my attention.


Punishments for violations of honor system should vary, but no greater than a stripping and/or ban from all things biju for 6 months and nothing less than disqualification from the competition.

As for tampering with biju fights in general, all complaints of cheating and/or unethical conduct must be publicly made to the Biju Council with evidence supporting the claim. Evidence includes:

* Screenshots of SL or SLF (shinobilegends forum PM conversations) that contain incriminating information implicating at least one of the accused of engaging or encouraging others to engage in the specific behavior that the accuser is accusing the accused of.

*Records of other conversations, text or graphical, outside of the context of SL or SLF that can be verified by at least one other person.

* Record of a full conversation (from greetings to end) of a confession statement made by the accused.

Global moderator or Game Master verification of private correspondence on SL and SLF may be requested, but any and all involved (accused and others who may have messages) must be notified via PM via both SL and SLF before the request is carried out.

Punishments again range between removal from all things biju for 6 months, loss of Council seat, etc.

[Dart Terumī]

Ultimately, I can see where you guys are coming from. My proposal would be very hard to enforce, and probably useless. Although the stipulations I proposed have happened before, so who knows. Which is why I hoped someone else might come up with another solution...

To fixing FFA matches or tampering of biju fights in general? My suggestion for both:

Tampering with the spirit of the process is very serious, but we don't want to turn FFA's and such into Clinton email server investigations and Russian hacking allegations. What I am proposing is not at all going to sound like me, but rest assured, it's my thoughts:


FFA's and tournament style biju fights should require a Honor system, similar to what universities have for tests and such. All participants agree to abide by a certain "honor code" that, currently, would consist of the following key points:

- As a participant, I agree to abide by the rules of the Game (game/forum rules) to the best of my ability.

- As a participant, I agree to remain courteous and polite towards my fellow participants, even if he or she is not reasonably courteous and polite towards me. I will attempt to the best of my ability to be a good sport in the event of an unfavorable outcome.

-As a participant, I agree to follow the rules of the Tournament and/or Free-for-All and will accept any punishments or boons that may result from being found to be in compliance or out of compliance with said rules.

-As a participant, I agree that if I or another participant at any point is found guilty of a Honor violation, then subject to appeal only to the Biju Council, I accept any punishments or boons that may result from the violation.

- As a participant I agree to acknowledge any Official (declared by judge, tournament conclusion results, dice rolls by valid party, bracket creations by valid party, etc.) outcomes.

- As a participant, I will report any unethical behavior that comes to my attention.


Punishments for violations of honor system should vary, but no greater than a stripping and/or ban from all things biju for 6 months and nothing less than disqualification from the competition.

As for tampering with biju fights in general, all complaints of cheating and/or unethical conduct must be publicly made to the Biju Council with evidence supporting the claim. Evidence includes:

* Screenshots of SL or SLF (shinobilegends forum PM conversations) that contain incriminating information implicating at least one of the accused of engaging or encouraging others to engage in the specific behavior that the accuser is accusing the accused of.

*Records of other conversations, text or graphical, outside of the context of SL or SLF that can be verified by at least one other person.

* Record of a full conversation (from greetings to end) of a confession statement made by the accused.

Global moderator or Game Master verification of private correspondence on SL and SLF may be requested, but any and all involved (accused and others who may have messages) must be notified via PM via both SL and SLF before the request is carried out.

Punishments again range between removal from all things biju for 6 months, loss of Council seat, etc.

+100

[Hazama]

"OOCly ganging up on "lesser" players with no apparent reason but to maliciously eliminate them from the competition defeats the purpose of having a game FFA in the first place."

What?

That is not a thing.

We didn't go to peoples houses and break their legs with baseball bats and demand they drop out of the fight, we just decided to eliminate a couple people first to make sure one of us won. You're supposed to try and win the fight aren't you?

Not to mention this horrible behavior that is apparently ruining everything to such a degree it needs to be banned resulted in me fighting Dart and Shadow fighting Kamui with Jay also fighting Shadow and Kamui. We didn't actually team up with each other to really any degree and more or less just agreed to not kill each other first. We didn't all 4 wheel and try and kill Kamui and made no strategy together either. There were 5 people Jay had to attack someone that was already being attacked, it was literally as fair as it could possibly be, and we were all launching attacks at each other basically the entire time.

You know what people should do instead of making excuses about why they lost and telling us we're cheating?

[Camel]

Ultimately, I can see where you guys are coming from. My proposal would be very hard to enforce, and probably useless. Although the stipulations I proposed have happened before, so who knows. Which is why I hoped someone else might come up with another solution...

To fixing FFA matches or tampering of biju fights in general? My suggestion for both:

Tampering with the spirit of the process is very serious, but we don't want to turn FFA's and such into Clinton email server investigations and Russian hacking allegations. What I am proposing is not at all going to sound like me, but rest assured, it's my thoughts:


FFA's and tournament style biju fights should require a Honor system, similar to what universities have for tests and such. All participants agree to abide by a certain "honor code" that, currently, would consist of the following key points:

- As a participant, I agree to abide by the rules of the Game (game/forum rules) to the best of my ability.

- As a participant, I agree to remain courteous and polite towards my fellow participants, even if he or she is not reasonably courteous and polite towards me. I will attempt to the best of my ability to be a good sport in the event of an unfavorable outcome.

-As a participant, I agree to follow the rules of the Tournament and/or Free-for-All and will accept any punishments or boons that may result from being found to be in compliance or out of compliance with said rules.

-As a participant, I agree that if I or another participant at any point is found guilty of a Honor violation, then subject to appeal only to the Biju Council, I accept any punishments or boons that may result from the violation.

- As a participant I agree to acknowledge any Official (declared by judge, tournament conclusion results, dice rolls by valid party, bracket creations by valid party, etc.) outcomes.

- As a participant, I will report any unethical behavior that comes to my attention.


Punishments for violations of honor system should vary, but no greater than a stripping and/or ban from all things biju for 6 months and nothing less than disqualification from the competition.

As for tampering with biju fights in general, all complaints of cheating and/or unethical conduct must be publicly made to the Biju Council with evidence supporting the claim. Evidence includes:

* Screenshots of SL or SLF (shinobilegends forum PM conversations) that contain incriminating information implicating at least one of the accused of engaging or encouraging others to engage in the specific behavior that the accuser is accusing the accused of.

*Records of other conversations, text or graphical, outside of the context of SL or SLF that can be verified by at least one other person.

* Record of a full conversation (from greetings to end) of a confession statement made by the accused.

Global moderator or Game Master verification of private correspondence on SL and SLF may be requested, but any and all involved (accused and others who may have messages) must be notified via PM via both SL and SLF before the request is carried out.

Punishments again range between removal from all things biju for 6 months, loss of Council seat, etc.

+100

+1000

[Eric]

"OOCly ganging up on "lesser" players with no apparent reason but to maliciously eliminate them from the competition defeats the purpose of having a game FFA in the first place."

...we just decided to eliminate a couple people first to make sure one of us won. You're supposed to try and win the fight aren't you?

So, 2 *2 *2 is no longer equal to 16 - 8?  Athos, deciding to eliminate a couple people to get them out of the fight and eliminating them to make sure someone on your team wins is all the same as far as sportsmanship in a 1v1v1v1v1 is concerned. It's poor sportsmanship. Taking it to the extreme of RL physical harm would warrant more than some virtual slaps on the wrists and jewelry snatching.

Still, making the Biju Council judge and jury brings of the obvious matter of what goes down if the entire (or majority of) the Biju Council is involved in the situation? Should we restrict Biju Council member from joining tournaments and such for the sake of keeping those chances down to a minimum, or just say "we'll get there when we get there"?