Shinobi Legends Forum
Roleplay => Village Square => Topic started by: Dart Terumī on December 18, 2014, 03:58:03 PM
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Alright guys, I've been lurking and watching to see how this jutsu would be applied to the SLverse. And from what I've seen, its being abused rather terribly. So, I'd like to make a proposition to nerf the technique based upon the context of what of actually does.
First, the technique description itself:
"This technique allows Mū to literally split his own body into two identical yet entirely independent duplicates of himself. Unlike Clone Techniques that only appear to be similar, the ability is instead a physical separation and so does not require hand seals to activate, making it faster in comparison as a result. This also means that even if one is incapacitated, the other remains completely unaffected and as neither can truly be regarded as the original, the duplicates cannot be dispelled like normal clones. However, while split, Mū's power is halved and as such he is unable to use more complex techniques like his Dust Release kekkei tōta."
Now, it seems pretty self explanatory to here on how it should be used and yet I've only seen one shinobi actually adhere to this description.
Second, the proposition:
Cons:
•ALL abilities are HALVED.
°This includes physical strength.
•ALL chakra is HALVED.
•NO kekkai genkai advanced techniques.
°No Mokuton, Hyōton, other elemental kgs.
°Dōjutsu ARE affected.
-Sharingan loses all advanced abilities and reverts to three tomoe state.
-Rinnegan only may use ONE path.
-Byakugan lose the ability to use Jūken ability and techniques.
•Jinchūriki CANNOT use this technique.
°It violates the splitting of a bijū's chakra rule. Since the technique is literally splitting everything about the person, the bijū would be split, too.
•Losing either half results in permanent character debuff.
°If a half is seal, could have another break the seal and then rejoin with half.
°If destroyed, well, you're out of luck.
•NO dōjutsu shifting.
°Pretty exclusive to the Sharingan <> Rinnegan shift. You split with one or the other active and that remains the eyes until rejoined.
Pros:
•Double the amount of actions per post. (6 actions total)
•Life-saving maneuver to avoid a total deathblow.
•Faster than Bunshin no Jutsu.
•Still have access to basic elemental ninjutsu.
•Hachimon still usable though strength halved.
•Sennin Modō still available.
°Unless split during mode, then chakra/nature energy is halved and time available is halved.
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Would be a bit silly to deny KGs in general yet still allow dojutsu ones. If you did go down that path however I daresay you'd want to rather limit rinne people to just the one specific path, such as a weakened version of deva, rather than let them freely pick which one for an inexplicable reason.
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It isn't like their eyes would disappear. The dōjutsu would only be able use their most basic abilities. Such as see chakra, track movement, etc.
But their other abilities cannot be used. Such as Kamui, Kaiten, multiple path formation, etc.
In hindsight, I do agree with that idea on Rinne users only allowed weakened Deva path.
The reason for KG inability is because it is still an advanced nature transformation. A complex ability. And it even states that Mū is unable to use such. Hell, it took him forever to finally summon one ET when he had been split. He was severely weakened in ability and I feel it should be the same here.
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No more ruuuuuuules.
If you're fighting someone who uses Fission on you then you know that you can immediately claim to be faster stronger and have more chakra then them. If anyone is abusing the jutsu it's because their opponent is not taking advantage of it.
This does not need a big set of rules. If someone use Fission we know they can't use big jutsu and are really weakened. A 50% debuff to speed is already huge in a zone fight where the speed of you and your attacks is really a deciding factor.
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... Second, the proposition:
Cons:
•ALL abilities are HALVED.
°This includes physical strength.
•ALL chakra is HALVED.
•NO kekkai genkai advanced techniques.
°No Mokuton, Hyōton, other elemental kgs.
°Dōjutsu ARE affected.
-Sharingan loses all advanced abilities and reverts to three tomoe state.
-Rinnegan only may use ONE path.
-Byakugan lose the ability to use Jūken ability and techniques.
•Jinchūriki CANNOT use this technique.
°It violates the splitting of a bijū's chakra rule. Since the technique is literally splitting everything about the person, the bijū would be split, too.
•Losing either half results in permanent character debuff.
°If a half is seal, could have another break the seal and then rejoin with half.
°If destroyed, well, you're out of luck.
•NO dōjutsu shifting.
°Pretty exclusive to the Sharingan <> Rinnegan shift. You split with one or the other active and that remains the eyes until rejoined.
Pros:
•Double the amount of actions per post. (6 actions total)
•Life-saving maneuver to avoid a total deathblow.
•Faster than Bunshin no Jutsu.
•Still have access to basic elemental ninjutsu.
•Hachimon still usable though strength halved.
•Sennin Modō still available.
°Unless split during mode, then chakra/nature energy is halved and time available is halved.
Until my fight with Ichirou, I have never actually encountered the fission technique (not that I recall anyways), so I don't think it is a very common technique. However, that is irrevelent since I don't fight every single group in SL on a regular basis, and wouldn't have fought Ichirou had it not been for the biju challenge thing.
Anyways, Rinnegan is an advanced level of sharingan; unless it is an implant, then it would fall under the sharingan rule and just revert to a 3-tomoe sharingan. So I don't see why the Rinnegan would need to have its own separate rules since, even as an implant into a non-Uchiha, it could just be de-powered to its 3-tomoe sharingan state (which the user would have little experience in unless they had in the other eye a sharingan, or if they had matured this one into the Rinnegan).
I am very much against the double the action per post, unless all clones were allowed to do that, in which case I would have no case to argue that this type of clone cannot do it either.
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@Bocc: Speed isn't always everything. And just claiming you're more "buffed" than they are when they used the technique doesn't change the fact that they will continue to fight at full strength, using such abilities as Amaterasu and Mokuton in a fight with HALF of their chakra and ability.
And I'm surprised you said anything against it since it was your character whom I was referring. During the fight with Tsuyo [with Rakudo] for the Nibi, you used this technique in this virtually exact manner.
@All: Despite "proficiency" within a field, it isnt possible to employ full results when you're only working with half of the equipment.
@Eric: It isn't a clone, though. It's literally a split person and really the only givable boost to the technique I can think of that would make the rest of its [proposed] limitations doable. That's why I propose the actions be doubled.
And correct me if I'm wrong, [I very well could be because I didn't fully analyze your fighting posts], but how is that any different than you and your summons having multiple actions yourselves?
And if their Rinnegan did shift during the fight from its Sharingan state, then I could see how it would be forced to revert. But, again, there needs to be a balance between powering down and a complete rebuff.
@All, again: Now don't get me wrong, I'm not against the technique at all. I could see how useful it could be used, i.e, using to split from say an offensive Kamui. But it isn't being used in a manner that respects its debuffs that are officially stated. It's just one of those techs that need monitored and then gently reminded that it isn't how it is suppose to work when it's being abused.
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To be fair, at the time I was under the impression that we (Tsuyo and I) were to be having a fun fight. So if I was not being realistic with abilities that is why :P though I do not remember how I used Fission in that fight.
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So I don't agree with this at all. I understand that everything is halved but not being able to use Mokuton and Hyouton seems a bit ridiculous. I don't think that the Sharingan would not be able to reach MS state either. Dust Release is understandable because it's three affinities at once. As far as wood and ice go, I think that one would not be able to use the justu to their fullest but there is NOTHING that states one would not be able to use other things like that at all. I was under the impression that everything was weaker not voided. All but Dust release.
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@Eric: It isn't a clone, though. It's literally a split person and really the only givable boost to the technique I can think of that would make the rest of its [proposed] limitations doable. That's why I propose the actions be doubled.
And correct me if I'm wrong, [I very well could be because I didn't fully analyze your fighting posts], but how is that any different than you and your summons having multiple actions yourselves?
Between myself and my summon, if you analyze my 1st fight with Ichirou, you will notice that I and Rita share the 3 action turn limit. The only exception is when we are performing collaboration techniques, and even then, at most, the collab is compounded into one, and generally very little else is done that turn. Whether other people do it like that or not depends on your opinion on that mechanic with summons, but how I do it is, just like with clones, sharing your turn moves. That was to cut down on summon spamming in order to overwhelm with sheer number of moves in a single turn, and though it is flawed in that line of thinking, I've kept with it for the most part.
By definition though, it is a clone:
This technique allows Mū to literally split his own body into two identical yet entirely independent duplicates of himself.
In biology, cloning is the process of producing similar populations of genetically identical individuals that occurs in nature when organisms such as bacteria, insects or plants reproduce asexually.
Human cloning is the creation of a genetically identical copy of a human.
The first is from the technique description on narutowikia, and the last two are the ones from wikipedia in general regarding cloning. If you would prefer with context, it is a perfect clone.
While I understand your concerns about advantages, the ability to split yourself into two, perfect duplicates at half strength is quite the advantage. Imagine sustaining this technique for a long period of time; you could, essentially, build up the strength of the two until they match that of the original, and then fuse together to create an even stronger demon. In theory. Whether that would be allowed or not is beyond is up for grabs.
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[quote author=Dart link=topic=8232.msg217467#msg217467 date=1418949804
While I understand your concerns about advantages, the ability to split yourself into two, perfect duplicates at half strength is quite the advantage. Imagine sustaining this technique for a long period of time; you could, essentially, build up the strength of the two until they match that of the original, and then fuse together to create an even stronger demon. In theory. Whether that would be allowed or not is beyond is up for grabs.
This is actually what Manji did to train for a long time. So it's not the first time it's been done.
Yeah I am all up for the nerfing. I don't see anything wrong with it.
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Noooooo, I need to be able to do that to make my army of one thousand Bocchiere's. Just imagine this but everyone is me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS5dEeMX64 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS5dEeMX64)
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@Eric: Oh, I see what you mean by the word "clone" then. Then in that sense, I definitely can see what you mean by not upping the turns. Training both bodies then forming together would become a problem, yes, but that is one advantage to the technique. So then instead of doubling it to 6 actions, perhaps just one more? Make it 4 actions?
Ah yes, see I did not know how your mechanics work with your summons but thank you for clarifying. :)
@Machina: And yet ALL kekkai genkai ARE advanced nature transformation. Thus making them a COMPLEX technique. It explicitly states that it prevents Mū from using such as he only possessed HALF of his total strength, chakra, ability, etc.
And even if a Sharingan can achieve the MS state, using it's subsequent abilities (Kamui, Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, Susanoo) should NOT be able for use as they are the HIGHEST techniques available for that particular dōjutsu.
@Bocc: Tsuyo attempted to Human Path the Rakudo body as you were trying to do the same to him but he hit you first. So you split into Cmage and used the SAME path and SAME eyes to do the same to him. And somehow some shenanigans were had. But regardless, you fought as Cmage only attempting to use that path and stuck to basic elemental natural transformation techs.
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Noooooo, I need to be able to do that to make my army of one thousand Bocchiere's. Just imagine this but everyone is me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS5dEeMX64 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS5dEeMX64)
Beef, pork, and chicken? :shock:
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@Bocc: Tsuyo attempted to Human Path the Rakudo body as you were trying to do the same to him but he hit you first. So you split into Cmage and used the SAME path and SAME eyes to do the same to him. And somehow some shenanigans were had. But regardless, you fought as Cmage only attempting to use that path and stuck to basic elemental natural transformation techs.
You are thinking of my fight with Kamui, not Tsuyo. We were both Human Realming each other simultaneously, tug of warring on each others souls, so I went with it and at the last second Fissioned so Rakudo and Kamui died and then Cmage revived Rakudo with the Hell Realm.
Unless that happened in my fight with Tsuyo too because honestly I don't remember that much about it.
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@Bocc: Tsuyo attempted to Human Path the Rakudo body as you were trying to do the same to him but he hit you first. So you split into Cmage and used the SAME path and SAME eyes to do the same to him. And somehow some shenanigans were had. But regardless, you fought as Cmage only attempting to use that path and stuck to basic elemental natural transformation techs.
You are thinking of my fight with Kamui, not Tsuyo. We were both Human Realming each other simultaneously, tug of warring on each others souls, so I went with it and at the last second Fissioned so Rakudo and Kamui died and then Cmage revived Rakudo with the Hell Realm.
Unless that happened in my fight with Tsuyo too because honestly I don't remember that much about it.
Oh, that's right! It was Kamui. Tsuyo and Rakudo was the Hachimon and Body Revival technique being used to regenerate. Haha.
Either way, you used it exactly as proposed. One path after splitting.
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I wanna start off my saying if I repeat anything anyone has said, I apologize. I skimmed the thread and just wanted to join in, because I love you all so very much <3
So I just wanna throw my two cents in because I am a user of this technique, First thing is that I don't think a n y KT should be allowed in the Bunretsu No jutsu but i'm sure that's already a thing. But I don't believe that the Sharingan would be unable to fully activate. The sharingan takes so little chakra to utilize that users can leave it on their whole life and not give two thoughts about it. The EMS state takes even less. And they're a physical part of the individual, not created by a jutsu or anything of the sort. However I do feel as though techniques from the sharingan would cost more in the bunretsu technique, and or would also be harder to control, or less efficient. i.e Kamui taking longer to absorb, and the inability to fully control amaterasu. During my current fight with Eric I used Amaterasu while split, but I only used it to the extent of igniting Eric with the fire, instead of trying to shape it into a giant black fire dragon of OP rape, I feel like this would be acceptable.
I also feel like Kekkai Genkais should be allowed on smaller scales (such as in my fight with Eric, even though it took a little bit of nerfing I understand the errors of my initial attempt and fixed it properly, at least I think so.) I feel like things like Amaterasu and KGs could be used on smaller scales because I feel like the complexity of techniques is relevant to two things, the first thing being the rank of the technique, and the second thing being the number of affinities controlled at once. KTs would be impossible to use because you're manipulating three different affinities simultaneously which we all know is a difficult task. However, we ALL know that our individual characters literally possess the ability to blast out high rank ninjutsu like bosses. We're all well over Kage level ninja, at least i'd like to think so. So it would really boil down the amount of affinities manipulated and to what extent. Just as Eric pointed out to me in my initial attempt to use my Mokuton in our fight, I over used the technique as I was making pretty large forests, but after nerfing it down to where I hadn't made large forests, but instead simply bud plants to spread pollen. It was agreed upon. I feel as though with the amount of skill our characters possess as Shinobi as well as the skill our Roleplayers possess as tacticians, the ability to use KGs and high level techs (with moderation) shouldn't be much of a damper. But that's just how I feel about it.
As far as the Rinnegan goes I do agree that it can't be used to it's fullest extent, but I also feel as though we could use at least two paths. Rinnegan bearers possess the ability to use multiple of their Paths in unison (as shown in the conflict between Nagato, Bee, Naruto, and Itachi. which we also all know.) I feel as though at least two particular paths should be allowed access too, these paths would of course be chosen by the split, but I also feel as though they could not be used in Unison. Such as in my fight with Eric, I had activated my rinnegan and utilize the Fujutsu Kyuin, but I'm not shinra tensei'ing at the same time or anything ridiculous like that.
As far as the Hachimon go with the Bunretsu, i feel like only up to the third gate could be accessed in this state because of the limited power and all that Jazz.
However I also feel as Bocchiere does, in the manner that I don't think we really need a set of rules for the technique.
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I agree with all of that, just far to lazy to type all that out.
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First off, the EMS is much more of a strain on the person than a three state is. I mean, did you even read the manga or watch any of the anime? Not to mention, your eyes bleed when an advanced tech is used. How in the hell is that "even less"?
If people can keep their power in check and realize that they will be debilitated in power, then I suppose a much lower scale of the elemental kg could be used. However, if you have to rely on a kg as your main source of combat to begin with, then I feel sorry for you.
I do not see how reducing a shinobi back to basics when using such an advanced technique is a problem.
I got to thinking on how Eric worded it earlier and perhaps is technique is just a quicker version of the Bunshin except it can only be split into two, not more. Because using a Bunshin jutsu employs the same exact concept of chakra, strength, etc., being used to fabricate that being into existence. It's just more easily dispelled and the chakra returns to the user.
So I guess this topic has been resolved. I retract my proposition and unless someone else wants to fabricate it again, they could use this as a reference tool. So, lock then?
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I see now that you're actually correct about the Sharingan information, and that I had been given bad information, so that's my bad on that part. But i stand by everything else that I had stated.
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... If people can keep their power in check and realize that they will be debilitated in power, then I suppose a much lower scale of the elemental kg could be used. However, if you have to rely on a kg as your main source of combat to begin with, then I feel sorry for you...
Bro, you just dissed canon Hashirama Senju to the max there. :P And Deidara. And Haku...
I would still argue that matured Rinnegan users shouldn't be able to use Rinnegan period, since it takes control in order to control a real Rinnegan (Obito couldn't control both of Madara's eyes at once). Manipulating both eyes while split seems stretchy.
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Yeah but they weren't Obito's eyes. Implants are harder to control, a rinne implant even more so, at least i'd think so
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Yeah but they weren't Obito's eyes. Implants are harder to control, a rinne implant even more so, at least i'd think so
Regular sharingan implants do not seem to have a "control" issue unless you start putting in more than one of them (the inability to de-activate it would count as a control I guess). See Danzo and Kakashi.
Mokuton implants do have that issue, as seen with Danzo and the rest of the Hashi wannabe freaks.
Rinnegan implants are explicitly stated to have a control issue. It took Nagato some time to get used to them both, Obito with his experience could only control one. Madara, being Madara, could control both with little to no problem.
So perhaps it is because they were implants that the were hard to control.
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They were Madara's eyes so of course he could control them o.o and the sharingan was more tasking on Kakashi than any Uchiha because it was an implant wasn't it?
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They were Madara's eyes so of course he could control them o.o and the sharingan was more tasking on Kakashi than any Uchiha because it was an implant wasn't it?
Because he was a non-Uchiha, not solely because they were implants. Danzo use Hashi's cells to ehlp him control all those sharingan on his arm, so it's that they were non-Uchiha that would have made it more chakra draining.
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Yes, Kakashi only had an easy time with the susanoo and stuff at the end cause he got temporary help from Obito's ghost. As for Danzo, even the senju goop was ultimately more just for izanagi. What came to actual sharingan usage, I believe the fact it took him years to recharge koto amatsukami says enough of his 'proficiency'.
Implants in general, no matter the eye, will be a bitch to control and significantly more straining on the body, because your body simply isn't made to handle them. Any abilities they have will be a fair deal weakened as well if you have only one eye from the pair. Kakashi could't deactivate sharingan at all ever, originally just about knocked out from just using the normal sort, even later after getting mangekyo he was still crap compared to Obito.
To quote Madara, eyes will only show their true power if the original owner has both of them in the body.
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Well I thought it was implied that I was talking about non Uchiha implants.
All the Uchiha do is implant eyes into each other, of course they can control it